ਸਤਿਗੁਰਬਚਨਕਮਾਵਣੇਸਚਾਏਹੁਵੀਚਾਰੁ॥
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maslaa regarding the manglacharan

Posted by JaspreetSingh 
jaskirat singh jee

hanji
daas recently aquired a gutka sahib by master jaswant singh jee
its beautiful
larivaar, mangal charans are first and he places the appropriate bishrams where necessary

guroo kirpaa
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"Raag" does not become Gauri in Sukhmani Sahib. Was not addressing any other bani. At least I have not personally seen it come before, nor have I heard it with "Raag" coming before.
In the above stated picture of the gutka sahib 'Raag' is before Gauri in Sukhmani Sahib. As a result, it questions the authencity of that gutka sahib being purataan and not re written afterwards, and so I would not consider it irrefutable evidence.
Sorry for not being more clear brother.

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Although I do apologize that my ignorance offended you so deeply. Atleast you got to write out a portion of Kirtan Sohila out of it all!
I will however leave the debate to more knowledgable Singhs such as yourself and others on this board.

Peace and love!
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JASJIT SINGH Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >
>
>
> Waheguru Ji ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji ki Fateh
>
> I am wondering people who can not even read the
> daily nitnem with open eyes are now participating
> in Panthic level discussion. Guru Hee Rakha.
> Piyare jio, recite Sohila Sahib tonight with
> concentration you will get the clear answer from
> Gurbani.
>
> ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
>
> ਸੋਹਿਲਾ ਰਾਗੁ ਗਉੜੀ
> ਦੀਪਕੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੧
>
> ਜੈ ਘਰਿ ਕੀਰਤਿ ਆਖੀਐ
> ਕਰਤੇ ਕਾ ਹੋਇ ਬੀਚਾਰੋ
> ॥
> ਤਿਤੁ ਘਰਿ ਗਾਵਹੁ
> ਸੋਹਿਲਾ ਸਿਵਰਿਹੁ
> ਸਿਰਜਣਹਾਰੋ ॥੧॥
> ਤੁਮ ਗਾਵਹੁ ਮੇਰੇ
> ਨਿਰਭਉ ਕਾ ਸੋਹਿਲਾ ॥
> ਹਉ ਵਾਰੀ ਜਿਤੁ
> ਸੋਹਿਲੈ ਸਦਾ ਸੁਖੁ
> ਹੋਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥...
>
> ਰਾਗੁ ਗਉੜੀ ਪੂਰਬੀ
> ਮਹਲਾ ੪ ॥
> ਕਾਮਿ ਕਰੋਧਿ ਨਗਰੁ
> ਬਹੁ ਭਰਿਆ ਮਿਲਿ ਸਾਧੂ
> ਖੰਡਲ ਖੰਡਾ ਹੇ ॥
> ਪੂਰਬਿ ਲਿਖਤ ਲਿਖੇ
> ਗੁਰੁ ਪਾਇਆ ਮਨਿ ਹਰਿ
> ਲਿਵ ਮੰਡਲ ਮੰਡਾ ਹੇ
> ॥੧॥
> ਕਰਿ ਸਾਧੂ ਅੰਜੁਲੀ
> ਪੁਨੁ ਵਡਾ ਹੇ ॥
> ਕਰਿ ਡੰਡਉਤ ਪੁਨੁ ਵਡਾ
> ਹੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ...
>
> Such remarks clearly shows how ignorant we are
> about the precious Gurbani.
>
> With Regards,
> Daas


Veerjio

In Sukhmani Sahib, daas had the darshan of Guru sahib today and it is clearly written Gauri Sukhmani M 5. There is no RAAG preceeding Gauri word.
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Waheguru Ji ka khalsa, Waheguru Ji ki Fateh

Quote
Wahegurulove jee wrote:
"\"Raag\" does not become Gauri in Sukhmani Sahib. Was not addressing any other bani. At least I have not personally seen it come before, nor have I heard it with \"Raag\" coming before."



Thank you for the clarification. Pardon me for my choice of straight forward words in previous post.

Quote
Wahegurlove jee wrote:
"in the above stated picture of the gutka sahib 'Raag' is before Gauri in Sukhmani Sahib. As a result, it questions the authencity of that gutka sahib being purataan and not re written afterwards, and so I would not consider it irrefutable evidence."


Quote
Akaal jee wrote:
"Veerjio In Sukhmani Sahib, daas had the darshan of Guru sahib today and it is clearly written Gauri Sukhmani M 5. There is no RAAG preceeding Gauri word."


One thing from the stated picture related to the subject is very clear that Mangals come first. Now concerning to the word ‘Raag’ appeared in Sukhmani Sahib and currently not in the printed saroops, for that I would say it needs separate topic on the missing/misspelled words in present saroops but it should not overshadow the subject of Manglacharan.

Although it will be little off the topic but please ponder upon the current saroop of this Salok from Sri Asa ki Vaar in present printed saroops:

ਸਲੋਕੁ ਮ: ੧ ॥ ਦੁਖੁ ਦਾਰੂ ਸੁਖੁ ਰੋਗੁ ਭਇਆ ਜਾ ਸੁਖੁ ਤਾਮਿ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥ ਤੂੰ ਕਰਤਾ ਕਰਣਾ ਮੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਜਾ ਹਉ ਕਰੀ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥॥ ਬਲਿਹਾਰੀ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਵਸਿਆ ॥ ਤੇਰਾ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਜਾਈ ਲਖਿਆ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਜਾਤਿ ਮਹਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਮਹਿ ਜਾਤਾ ਅਕਲ ਕਲਾ ਭਰਪੂਰਿ ਰਹਿਆ ॥ ਤੂੰ ਸਚਾ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਸਿਫਤਿ ਸੁਆਲ੍ਹ੍ਹਿਉ ਜਿਨਿ ਕੀਤੀ ਸੋ ਪਾਰਿ ਪਇਆ ॥ ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਕਰਤੇ ਕੀਆ ਬਾਤਾ ਜੋ ਕਿਛੁ ਕਰਣਾ ਸੁ ਕਰਿ ਰਹਿਆ ॥ਮ: ੨ ॥ ਜੋਗ ਸਬਦੰ ਗਿਆਨ ਸਬਦੰ ਬੇਦ ਸਬਦੰ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣਹ ॥ ਖਤ੍ਰੀ ਸਬਦੰ ਸੂਰ ਸਬਦੰ ਸੂਦ੍ਰ ਸਬਦੰ ਪਰਾ ਕ੍ਰਿਤਹ ॥ ਸਰਬ ਸਬਦੰ ਏਕ ਸਬਦੰ ਜੇ ਕੋ ਜਾਣੈ ਭੇਉ ॥ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਤਾ ਕਾ ਦਾਸੁ ਹੈ ਸੋਈ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਦੇਉ ॥ਮ: ੨
ਏਕ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨੰ ਸਰਬ ਦੇਵਾ ਦੇਵ ਦੇਵਾ ਤ ਆਤਮਾ ॥ ਆਤਮਾ ਬਾਸੁਦੇਵਸ੍ਯ੍ਯਿ ਜੇ ਕੋ ਜਾਣੈ ਭੇਉ ॥ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਤਾ ਕਾ ਦਾਸੁ ਹੈ ਸੋਈ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਦੇਉ ॥ਮ: ੧ ॥ ਕੁੰਭੇ ਬਧਾ ਜਲੁ ਰਹੈ ਜਲ ਬਿਨੁ ਕੁੰਭੁ ਨ ਹੋਇ ॥ ਗਿਆਨ ਕਾ ਬਧਾ ਮਨੁ ਰਹੈ ਗੁਰ ਬਿਨੁ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਨ ਹੋਇ ॥


You will see the counts for the Saloks are 5 but the Saloks printed are only 4. How it is even possible that count are more than Saloks written? Some thing is very wrong here. Now the possibility is either one Salok is missing or one heading ਮ: ੧ is missing? Singhs who did the investigation thoroughly they found heading ਮ: ੧ is missing and they found one old hand written saroop where it appears as:

ਸਲੋਕੁ ਮ: ੧ ॥ ਦੁਖੁ ਦਾਰੂ ਸੁਖੁ ਰੋਗੁ ਭਇਆ ਜਾ ਸੁਖੁ ਤਾਮਿ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥ ਤੂੰ ਕਰਤਾ ਕਰਣਾ ਮੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਜਾ ਹਉ ਕਰੀ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥੧॥ ਮ: ੧॥ ਬਲਿਹਾਰੀ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਵਸਿਆ ॥ ਤੇਰਾ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਜਾਈ ਲਖਿਆ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਜਾਤਿ ਮਹਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਮਹਿ ਜਾਤਾ ਅਕਲ ਕਲਾ ਭਰਪੂਰਿ ਰਹਿਆ ॥ ਤੂੰ ਸਚਾ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਸਿਫਤਿ ਸੁਆਲ੍ਹ੍ਹਿਉ ਜਿਨਿ ਕੀਤੀ ਸੋ ਪਾਰਿ ਪਇਆ ॥ ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਕਰਤੇ ਕੀਆ ਬਾਤਾ ਜੋ ਕਿਛੁ ਕਰਣਾ ਸੁ ਕਰਿ ਰਹਿਆ ॥੨॥…

Which makes sense now because now numbers of counts and Saloks are even but you will argue that we never heard any one reciting
ਮ: ੧ before ਬਲਿਹਾਰੀ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਵਸਿਆ ॥ but that does bot stop serious seekers of Gurbani to recite. So daas would suggest that current printing needs ultra attention of panth that we should prioritize our efforts on this basis first.

Having said that ‘Raag’ word appeared in above picture which said to be from old Gutkay should bring under light to discuss the matter of missing words not merely used to reject the authenticity because we are not in favor of Manglacharans to appear first. One will achieve nothing good with that mindset.

Bhul Chuk di khima jio,

With Regards,
Daas
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Quote
JASJIT SINGH
You will see the counts for the Saloks are 5 but the Saloks printed are only 4. How it is even possible that count are more than Saloks written? Some thing is very wrong here. Now the possibility is either one Salok is missing or one heading ਮ: ੧ is missing? Singhs who did the investigation thoroughly they found heading ਮ: ੧ is missing and they found one old hand written saroop where it appears as:

ਸਲੋਕੁ ਮ: ੧ ॥ ਦੁਖੁ ਦਾਰੂ ਸੁਖੁ ਰੋਗੁ ਭਇਆ ਜਾ ਸੁਖੁ ਤਾਮਿ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥ ਤੂੰ ਕਰਤਾ ਕਰਣਾ ਮੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਜਾ ਹਉ ਕਰੀ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥੧॥ ਮ: ੧॥ ਬਲਿਹਾਰੀ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਵਸਿਆ ॥ ਤੇਰਾ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਜਾਈ ਲਖਿਆ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਜਾਤਿ ਮਹਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਮਹਿ ਜਾਤਾ ਅਕਲ ਕਲਾ ਭਰਪੂਰਿ ਰਹਿਆ ॥ ਤੂੰ ਸਚਾ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਸਿਫਤਿ ਸੁਆਲ੍ਹ੍ਹਿਉ ਜਿਨਿ ਕੀਤੀ ਸੋ ਪਾਰਿ ਪਇਆ ॥ ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਕਰਤੇ ਕੀਆ ਬਾਤਾ ਜੋ ਕਿਛੁ ਕਰਣਾ ਸੁ ਕਰਿ ਰਹਿਆ ॥੨॥…

Which makes sense now because now numbers of counts and Saloks are even but you will argue that we never heard any one reciting
ਮ: ੧ before ਬਲਿਹਾਰੀ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਵਸਿਆ ॥ but that does bot stop serious seekers of Gurbani to recite. So daas would suggest that current printing needs ultra attention of panth that we should prioritize our efforts on this basis first.

Daas totally agrees with Jasjit Singh ji new jersey
if u look at Sukhmani Sahib, all the Saloks are only 2-3 lines, and this method is applied throughout all of Guru Granth Sahib, as well as Sri Dasam Granth Sahib.
Daas himself doesnt seem to understand how can a salok be 4-5 lines,


concerning the authenticity of the Gutka Sahib, i totally agree with the format its written. we have not understood Gurbaani and the way its written, but a lot of people dont understand that it is important and duty to learn and understand the grammar of Gurbaani, and why its written the way its written, and if there has been any mistake, how to correct it.
this is the reason why this certain piece of writing which happens to come last after Guru Granth Sahib ji in most saroops these days, has been believed to be Gurbaani, of course you all know what daas is talking about.
IT IS VERY IMPORTANT TO LEARN THE FORMAT AND GRAMMAR OF GURBAANI, WITHOUT IT WE CAN NOT UNDERSTAND GURBAANI PROPERLY.


Bed Kateb Kahho Mat Choothe, Chootha Jo Naa Bicharai ll

A common mistake regarding the above pankti that lot of Sikhs make is that, the pankti means dont call the beds and katebs false, false are those who dont believe in them.

Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir SIngh ji has dome viakhia of this in Gurmat Gorvata, the viakhia is as follows
The "Kahho" is saying, calling out that say it the "haahaa" after the second "haahaa" and aunkarr under it makes it a verb, which means say it,

so the correct meaning of this pankti is that: call the beds and katebs false, and those who believe in them are also false.

the above example just proves how important it is to study the grammar and the format of Gurbaani, because without this, we can not understand Gurbaani properly.

Similarly, the manglacharan is also part of this format of Gurbaani, which is why we need to pronounce it first. the manglacharan refers to Waheguru, look at this utmost humility Guru Sahib has. first Guru Sahib refers to Waheguru, then Guru Sahib talks about the Raag, then Mahalaa 1, 2 , 3, 4, 5, and 9. Guru Sahib doesnt even say his name.
BUt we think we are greater than Guru ji, we will refer to waheguru after, the raag is more important than him, thats out thinking.

btw Bhai Sahib Kulbir SINgh jeeo, when are you going to put up that article about Manglacharan.

Bhul Chuk Maaf

WaheGuruJiKaKhalsa ll WaheGuruJiKiFateh ll
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