maslaa regarding the manglacharan

WaheGuruJiKaKhalsa ll WaheGuruJiKiFateh ll

sadh sangat jee, in the past few months there has been a conflict regarding a simple concept/rule of Gurbaani, which revolves around Manglacharan(ikOnkaaarSatgurParsaad ll) now daas believes in pronouning it first, but apparently some singh has raised issue regarding, not with the daas, but other Singhs. this Singh believes manglacharan should pronounced after. He is a jatha singh. NOw this explains how little knowledge of Gurbaani jatha singhs have these days, including daas.

before we look deeper into this, we need to discuss the meaning of the word "manglacharan". daas doesnt know, of course. but of course it has to have some meaning, and some deep meaning, and its origin.

the singh daas was talking about. once this Singh told daas to do Rehraas Sahib. daas did as requested. however, daas pronounced the manglacharans first, at before Sodar, and before Raag Asaa Mahalaa Chautha. after daas was finished, this Singh seemed really ticked off. he starting giving daas a speech of how in Akal Ustat Guru Gobind Singh Jee has said that Vaheguru is everywhere, in ground, in plants, in animals, in sea, in sky. Then he further went on to say how are we going to see vaheguru in all this, when we cant even see him in Guru Granth Sahib Jee, we question His baani, and decide for ourselves how Baani should be read, pronounced. Daas let him go on, but didnt really say much, I knew he was talking about the Manglacharans.

Recently, another Singh daas heard talking about this topic regarding Manglacharan. This Singh was fully totally right in front of my eyes talking bad, i.e. slandering, some singhs because they prounounce the manglacharan first, and also tell others to do the same. This Singh was saying how its not right and you should read it the way its written, although I dont agree.

Couple of weeks back, Daas did darshan a saroop at some at an Akhand Patth Sahib at a very close companion of Daas. This saroop is pretty old and the Manglacharans were printed first. So that says a lot, but some Singhs still dont agree.

It's interesting and sad thing to see these that even jatha singhs dont know about Gurbaani. Daas has seen couple of Jatha singhs doing Paatth wrong, including prounouncing the Manglacharan after and then of course there are saroops by an international organization of Singhs that print the manglacharan after.

bhul chuk maaf

WaheGuruJiKaKhalsa ll WaheGuruJiKiFateh ll

ੴਸਤਿਨਾਮਕਰਤਾਪੁਰਖੁਨਿਰਭਉਨਿਰਵੈਰੁਅਕਾਲਮੂਰਤਿਅਜੂਨੀਸੈਭੰਗੁਰਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ॥

ਜਿਹੜੇ ਸਿੱਖ ਮੰਗਲਾਂਚਰਨ ਨੂੰ ਉਲਟ ਪੁਲਟ ਪੜਨ ਵੱਲ ਜ਼ਿਆਦਾ ਜ਼ੋਰ ਦਿੰਦੇ ਹਨ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦੇ ਚਰਨਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਦਾਸ ਦਾ ਇਕੋ ਇੱਕ ਸਵਾਲ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਇਸ ਵਿਚ ਕੋਈ ਦੋ ਰਾਇ ਨਹੀਂ ਕਿ ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਧੁਰ ਕੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਹੈ ਖਸਮ ਕੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਹੈ ਪੂਰਾ ਪੰਥ ਇਸ ਗੱਲ ਨੂੰ ਮੰਨਦਾ ਹੈ ਤੇ ਕੋਈ ਵੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਕਾ ਅਨਿੰਨ ਸਿੱਖ ਇਸ ਗੱਲ ਤੋਂ ਇਨਕਾਰੀ ਨਹੀਂ, ਕੀ ਇਹ ਵੀਰ ਇਹ ਦੱਸਣਗੇ ਕਿ ੴ (ਇੱਕ ਓਅੰਕਾਰ) ਪੂਰੀ ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ (ਆਦਿ ਤੋਂ ਅੰਤ ਤਾਈਂ) ਦਾ ਤਾਜ਼ ਨਹੀ ਹੈ? ਆਪਾਂ ਸਾਰੇ ਹੀ ਸਿੱਖ ਵੀਰ ਭੈਣਾਂ ਇਸ ਤੱਥ ਤੋਂ ਭਲੀ ਭਾਂਤ ਜਾਣੂ ਹਾਂ ਕਿ ਸੰਪੂਰਨ ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਦੇ ਆਦਿ ਵਿਚ ਅਰੰਭਤਾ ੴ ਤੋਂ ਹੁੰਦੀ ਹੈ। ਜਿਸਦਾ ਸਪੱਸ਼ਟ ਭਾਵ ਹੈ ਅਗਾਂਹ ਆਉਣ ਵਾਲੀ ਲਿਖਤ ਓਸ ਪਰੀ ਪੂਰਨ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦੇ ਪ੍ਰਥਾਇ ਹੀ ਆਵੇਗੀ, ਹਾਂ ਲਿਖੀ ਕਿਸੇ ਵੀ ਮਹਲ ਦੀ ਹੋ ਸਕਦੀ ਹੈ। ਭਾਵ ਸਮੁੱਚੀ ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਏਸ ੴ ਦਾ ਦੀ ਪਾਸਾਰਾ ਹੈ ਜੇ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੈ ਤਾਂ ਦੱਸੋ। ਹੁਣ ਜੇ ੴਸਮੁੱਚੀ ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਦੇ ਆਦਿ ਵਿਚ ਹੈ ਤਾਂ ਫਿਰ ਇਹ ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਦੇ ਸਿਰ ਦਾ ਤਾਜ਼ ਨਾ ਹੋਇਆ? ਤਾਂ ਤੇ ਤਾਜ਼ ਹਮੇਸ਼ਾ ਸਿਰ ਤੇ ਹੀ ਸੋਂਹਦਾ ਹੈ ਨਾ ਕਿ ਗਲੇ ਵਿਚ ਭਾਵ ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਰਚਨਹਾਰੇ ਦੇ ਨਾਮ ਤੋਂ ਬਾਅਦ। ਸੋ ਇਸ ਕਰਕੇ ਸਮੁੱਚੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਨੂੰ ਉਚਾਰਨ ਕਰਨ ਵਖਤ ਹਮੇਸ਼ਾ ਹੀ ੴ (ਇੱਕ ਓਅੰਕਾਰ) ਦਾ ਉਚਾਰਨ ਆਦਿ ਵਿਚ ਆਵੇਗਾ ਬਾਅਦ ਵਿਚ ਨਹੀਂ। ਹੁਣ ਜੇ ੴ (ਇੱਕ ਓਅੰਕਾਰ) ਦਾ ਉਚਾਰਨ ਆਦਿ ਵਿਚ ਹੀ ਸੋਂਹਦਾ ਹੈ ਤਾਂ ਤੇ ੴ (ਇੱਕ ਓਅੰਕਾਰ) ਦੀ ਵਿਸ਼ੇਸ਼ਤਾਈਆਂ ਵੀ ਆਦਿ ਵਿਚ ਹੀ ਹੋਣਗੀਆਂ। ਰਹੀ ਗੱਲ ਛਪੇ ਹੋਏ ਉਲਟ ਪੁਲਟ ਮੰਗਲਾਂ ਦੀ ਤਾਂ ਇਸ ਬਾਬਤ ਪੰਥ ਵਿਚ ਇਕ ਟੁਕ ਫੈਸਲਾਂ ਹੋ ਚੁੱਕਿਆ ਸੀ ਜਿਹੜਾ ਕਿ ਸਾਧ ਲਾਣੇ ਨੂੰ ਆਪਣੀ ਅੜੀ ਵਾਲੀ ਨੀਤੀ ਅਨੁਸਾਰ ਚੰਗਾ ਨਹੀਂ ਲੱਗਾ ਅਤੇ ਜਿਵੇਂ ਹੁਣ ਇਹਨਾਂ ਵਲੋਂ ਨਾਨਕਸ਼ਾਹੀ ਕਲ਼ੰਡਰ ਦਾ ਕੀਰਤਨ ਸੋਹਿਲਾ ਪੜਿਆ ਗਿਆ ਇਵੇਂ ਹੀ ਉਸ ਵੇਲੇ ਵੀ ਕੀਤਾ ਗਿਆ। ਪਰ ਇਸ ਨਾਲ ਫ਼ਰਕ ਕੋਈ ਨਹੀਂ ਪੈਂਦਾ ਕਿਉਂਕਿ ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਦੇ ਸ਼ੁੱਧ ਉਚਾਰਨਾਂ ਵੇਲੇ ਇਹ ਸੁਤੇ ਸਿਧ ਹੀ ਠੀਕ ਪੜੇ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ। ਦਾਸ ਇਸ ਵਿਸ਼ੇ ਤੇ ਫਾਲਤੂ ਦੀ ਬਹਿਸਬਾਜ਼ੀ ਤੋਂ ਗੁਰੇਜ਼ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੋਇਆ ਇਹ ਹੀ ਬੇਨਤੀ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਜਿਹਨਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਤਾਂ ਇਸ ਬਾਬਤ ਪਤਾ ਹੈ ਉਹ ਤਾਂ ਇਵੇਂ ਹੀ ਪੜਨ ਪਰ ਜਿਹਨਾਂ ਦੀ ਜਾਣਕਾਰੀ ਵਿਚ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੈ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਆਪਣਾ ਵਿਚਾਰ ਦੱਸਿਆ ਜਾ ਸਕਦਾ ਹੈ ਥੋਪਿਆ ਨਹੀਂ ਕਿਉਂਕਿ ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਸਭ ਦੀ ਸਾਂਝੀ ਹੈ ਜਿਵੇਂ ਜਿਵੇਂ ਕਿਸੇ ਦੀ ਸਮਝ ਅੰਦਰ ਆ ਰਿਹਾ ਹੈ ਉਹ ਉਵੇਂ ਹੀ ਕਰੀ ਜਾ ਰਿਹਾ ਕਿਸੇ ਵਿਵਾਦ ਵਿਚ ਪੈਣਾ ਸ਼ੋਭਨੀਕ ਨਹੀਂ।

ਦਾਸ ਨਾਲ ਵੀ ਪਿਛਲੇ ਵਰ੍ਹੇ ਨਿਊਜਰਸੀ ਸਮਾਗਮ ਦੌਰਾਨ ਇਕ ਕੀਰਤਨੀ ਰਾਗੀ ਜੀ ਜੋ ਕਿ ਜੱਥੇ ਦੀਆਂ ਸਟੇਜਾਂ ਤੋਂ ਵੀ ਕੀਰਤਨ ਕਰਦੇ ਸੁਣੀਂਦੇ ਹਨ ਰਹਿਰਾਸ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਦੇ ਸਮੇਂ ਦੌਰਾਨ ਗੁਰੂ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਦੇ ਤਾਬਿਆ ਬੈਠਾ ਹੋਣ ਕਰਕੇ ਦਾਸ ਨੂੰ ਹੀ ਆਖਣ ਲੱਗੇ ਕਿ ਤੁਸੀਂ ਹੀ ਪਾਠ ਕਰ ਦਿਉ। ਦਾਸ ਨੇ ਬੇਨਤੀ ਕੀਤੀ ਕਿ ਆਪ ਜੀ ਵਡੇਰੇ ਹੋ ਆਪਜੀ ਹੀ ਇਹ ਸੇਵਾ ਨਿਭਾਉ। ਆਖਣ ਲੱਗੇ ਨਹੀਂ ਨਹੀਂ ਆਪ ਜੀ ਹੀ ਕਰੋ। ਉਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਦਾ ਹੁਕਮ ਮੰਨ ਕੇ ਦਾਸ ਨੇ ਰਹਿਰਾਸ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਦਾ ਪਾਠ ਕੀਤਾ। ਮਗਰੋਂ ਦੀ ਅਲੱਗ ਕਮਰੇ ਵਿਚ ਲਿਜਾ ਕਿ ਮੰਗਲਾਂ ਵਾਰੇ ਆਖਣ ਲੱਗੇ। ਹੋਰ ਤਾਂ ਹੋਰ ਫਿਰ ਭਿੰਡਰਾਵਾਲਿਆਂ ਦੀ ਮਿਸਾਲ ਦੇਣ ਲੱਗੇ ਆਖਣ ਲੱਗੇ ਉਹ ਭੀ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਕੋਲੋ ਹੀ ਪੜੇ ਹਨ। ਇਸ ਕਰਕੇ ਮੰਗਲ ਜਿਵੇਂ ਉਲਟ ਪੁਲਟ ਹਨ ਉਵੇਂ ਹੀ ਪੜਨ ਹੀ ਤਾਕੀਦ ਕਰਨ ਲੱਗੇ। ਫਿਰ ਦਾਸ ਨੂੰ ਆਖਣ ਲੱਗੇ ਕਿ ਭਾਈ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਭਾਈ ਰਣਧੀਰ ਸਿੰਘ ਜੀ ਨੇ ਆਪਣੀਆ ਪੁਸਤਕਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਕਿਤੇ ਨਹੀਂ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਕਿ ਕਿਵੇਂ ਪੜੋਂ ਫਿਰ ਤੁਸੀ ਕਿਉਂ ਇਸਤਰਾਂ ਪੜਦੇ ਹੋ। ਦਸ ਨੇ ਆਖਿਆ ਬਈ ਆਪ ਜੀ ਤੇ ਜਿਹਨਾਂ ਭਿੰਡਰਾਂਵਾਲਿਆ ਸਿੰਘਾ ਦਾ ਆਪ ਜੀ ਨੇ ਨਾਮ ਲਿਆ ਹੈ ਸਾਰੇ ਹੀ ਦਾਸ ਲਈ ਸਤਿਕਾਰਯੋਗ ਹਨ ਪਰ ਅਤਿ ਸਤਿਕਾਰਯੋਗ ਆਪਾਂ ਸਾਰਿਆਂ ਦੇ ਗੁਰੂ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਹੀ ਹਨ ਦਾਸ ਦਾ ਤਾਂ ਇਹੋ ਹੀ ਮੰਨਣਾ ਹੈ ਆਪ ਜੀ ਨੂੰ ਜੋ ਕਿਸੇ ਪੜਾਇਆ ਆਪ ਜੀ ਨੂੰ ਮੁਬਾਰਕ ਦਾਸ ਨੂੰ ਜੋ ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਤੋਂ ਸੋਝੀ ਆਈ ਜਾ ਹੋਰਨਾਂ ਗੁਰਸਿੱਖਾਂ ਦੀ ਸੰਗਤ ਚੋਂ ਜਾਣਕਾਰੀ ਆਈ ਉਸਨੂੰ ਦਾਸ ਤਾਈਂ ਵਰਤਣ ਦੀ ਮਿਹਰਬਾਨੀ ਕਰੋ। ਬੜੇ ਹੀ ਸਹਜ ਵਿਚ ਗੱਲਬਾਤ ਹੋਈ ਕੋਈ ਤਕਰਾਰ ਨਹੀਂ ਕੋਈ ਗੁੱਸਾ ਨਹੀਂ ਹਾਂ ਇਕ ਗੱਲ ਦਾਸ ਨੇ ਪਾਠ ਕਰਦਿਆਂ ਕੁਝ ਜਗ੍ਹਾਂ ਤੇ ਮਹਲੇ ਦੇ ਉਚਾਰਨ ਵਿਚ ਆਈ ਢਿੱਲ ਵੱਲ ਦਿਵਾਏ ਉਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਵਲੋਂ ਧਿਆਨ ਦੀ ਗੱਲ ਨੂੰ ਜਰੂਰ ਸਵੀਕਾਰ ਕੀਤਾ।

ਸੋ ਭਾਵ ਇਹ ਹੀ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਆਪਾਂ ਗੁਣਾਂ ਦੀ ਸਾਂਝ ਪਾਉਣੀ ਹੈ। ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਬੜੇ ਦਿਆਲ ਨੇ ਆਪੇ ਹੀ ਸਮੇਂ ਅਤੇ ਯੋਗਤਾ ਅਨੁਸਾਰ ਸੋਝੀ ਬਖਸ਼ ਦਿੰਦੇ ਹਨ।


ਗੁਰੂ ਚਰਨਾਂ ਦੇ ਭੌਰਿਆਂ ਦਾ ਦਾਸ,
ਜਸਜੀਤ ਸਿੰਘ

this is a pretty controversial thing

although daas reads the mangals as they are written, first in some cases and after in some other cases

i am not sure what the SGPC has to say about this considereing they do make all "panthic" decisons, but i would assume, they don't put all mangals first because of the pothia they print, have them as they are supposed to be? can anyone confirm that?

oddslot

It's purely ignorance on part of some Singhs to insist on reading Manglacharan after the Sirlekh. Many Gutkas and Saroops of Maharaj are published as follows:

ਗਉੜੀ ਸੁਖਮਨੀ ਮ: 5 ॥ ਸਲੋਕੁ ॥ ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥

Can there be a bigger error than this? According to the above the following errors are showing:

1. The Mangal is part of Raag Gauri (which it's not).

2. The Mangal is Baani of Mahalla 5 where as Mool Mantra and its Mangals are Mukhvaak of Mahalla 1.

3. The Mangal is part of the Salok which is so untrue. Salok is "Aadh Guraye Namah" and not the Mangal.

The Sujaan Singhs (informed Gursikhs) always read the Manglacharan first and not after. Presented below is an image of an old Saroop that has the above Sirlekh in correct form:



A detailed article on Mangals will be written soon.

Kulbir Singh

The evidence seems to suggest that manglacharan comes first, but there is always some doubt about this in my mind - Why did Sant Gurbachan Singh and others protest so much in favour of manglacharan coming after sirlekh? Surely they must have given some reasons to their strong opposition of putting manglacharan first.

Has Bhai Randhir Singh jee mentioned anything about manglacharans and where they should be?

Is it ok to read manglcharan first when reading from a saroop that has them printed after sirlekh?

The saroop which was parkaash at Bhai Randhir Singh Jee's house had manglacharans first. It was the first edition of the saroops that sgpc had published with mangals first.

I had really hoped no-one posted this topic in such a chardi kalaa forum but it has. There's no right and wrong answer in this. Those who beleive that manglacharan should come first will argue their points and those who beleive it comes after will argue their's. With Guru Sahib's kirpaa daas has done darshan of praatan saroops hathlikhat by Guru Sahib jee with his dastakhat, and in many of the birs Manglacharan comes before in others it comes after.

I don't think we can call anyone ignorant as Bh. Kulbir Singh and others in this thread have stated. It is the ignorance of the individual who wants to push his/her agenda on this issue, the person reading manglacharan first or after isn't at fault, but the person/thing responsible for printing it is. It is one's shardhaa on how one decides to recite bani, if they want to beleive that manglacharan should always come first then that is their own understanding/matt but you don't have the right to call others wrong who beleive otherwise.

Their shardha to read bani as written is innocence not ignorance. The panth has given its decision when the gutke sahib and maharaaj saroops have been printed as such in large numbers, could this have happened if maharaaj didn't want it? A Gursikh's sole support is his/her Guru / Gurbani, when we start to question the bani we are doing major paap.

I hope singhs who have openly supported their views on this issue don't put others down as ignorant for not reading manglacharan first. Those who read it as its written can say the same thing to you, that you are distorting bani by adding your own matt before gurmatt/gurbani. In my opinion, if those select few in jatha want to push their agenda of mangalcharan always written before you are doing major paap, I can also post screenshot images of praatan saroops where mangals are written after raag. Please don't misinform gursikhs on this board and let them study/research this matter on their own. Damdami Taksaal is a well-respected sanstha which has had many well-known and well-respected mahapurkhs who have not raised any doubt towards Manglacharan, who are we?

Bhul chuk maaf di khima.

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

Yet another issue that could be resolved with a method that some consider controversial:

For many years, I had dreamed/hoped/wished that exact copies of the Puratan Saroops of Guru Granth Sahib Ji and the Kartarpuri Bir could be made. With SLR cameras and crazy megapixels and broadband internet, these could be made available for all to have Darshan of (respectfuilly - if concerns of beadbi exist, then perhaps executing under Javascript so as to not allow easy copying of the images could be done and only allow viewing, not printing). Some Gursikhs have stated that Saroops prepared by Baba Deep Singh Ji are parkash at the Takht Sahiban, so their documentation would be critical. Dasam Granth Saroops of the oldest creation (and Sarbloh Granth Sahib Saroops as well) should also be part of this initiative. This would allow for many of these issues to resolve (especially Dasam Patshah's Nitnem Bani inconsistently being printed differently in many Gutka Sahibs).

How this would be accomplished...I have no idea. But it would AT LEAST serve as a platform for analysis of what the proper spelling of Gurbani is and how it should be reproduced when printing.

Quote

I don't think we can call anyone ignorant as Bh. Kulbir Singh and others in this thread have stated.

Akaali jee, my apologies for this statement. The intention was not to insult anyone.

Quote

The panth has given its decision when the gutke sahib and maharaaj saroops have been printed as such in large numbers, could this have happened if maharaaj didn't want it?

Akaali jee, just because so many Gutkas and Maharaj jee's Saroops are printed with Mangals after Sirlekh, it is no proof that this is how Maharaj jee wanted. So many Gutkas and Saroops are printed Padd-Chhed; we can't derive from this that this is how Guru Sahib wanted.

Quote

A Gursikh's sole support is his/her Guru / Gurbani, when we start to question the bani we are doing major paap.

How's this questioning Baani? No one is saying that Mangals are not Baani. The point is that many old Saroops have Mangals in the beginning and many have them after Sirlekh but as per tradition, Mangal should always come first. In Kartarpuri Bir, the Mangals always appear either on top right side or right side only, out of respect. From this some Premis deduced that Mangals appear after Sirlekh. Later on when they wrote Saroops, they erroneously wrote Mangals after Sirlekh.

This Daas is writing an article on Mangals and will publish it on this forum soon.

I humbly request you to answer the three questions I raised in my previous post.


Daas,
Kulbir Singh

WaheGuruJiKaKhalsa ll WaheGurujikifateh ll

thank you for all your answers and responses. however, the question daas asked asked was what is the meaning of the word manglacharan?
if ikonkaarsatgurparsaad ll appears after, that totally doesnt make sense. that sounds more like the beginning.
Bhai sahib Kulbir Singh ji, hope you do well on the article, and try putting it on this site soon. and that photo actually says a lot.

sukhdev singh ji, where are those saroops now? do u have any pictures of them.

Akaali ji, why is wrong to start this topic. I feel it is a responsibility of each of us to inform each other about issues such as this one.

ਗਉੜੀ ਸੁਖਮਨੀ ਮ: 5 ॥ ਸਲੋਕੁ ॥ ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
yes daas has also noticed this, although in such a case, i always pronounce the manglacharan first, then the name of the Raag, then the baanis name, then mahalaa 5, then salok.

Can there be a bigger error than this? According to the above the following errors are showing:

no there cant be. its like saying ur arms are where ur legs are supposed to and ur legs are where ur arms are supposed to be, and vice versa.

1. The Mangal is part of Raag Gauri (which it's not).
Then mangal from what i understand is the beginning and states that now new baani is starting.

2. The Mangal is Baani of Mahalla 5 where as Mool Mantra and its Mangals are Mukhvaak of Mahalla 1.

if thats the case, then i guess we should also look at Japji Sahib, where the mool mantar is the baanis manglacharan. why do we then say the moolmantar first? why not Sochai Soch Naa Hovai Je Sochin Lakh Vaar ll ?

3. The Mangal is part of the Salok which is so untrue. Salok is "Aadh Guraye Namah" and not the Mangal.
yea. that means the Salok "Aadh Guraye Nameh" shouldve come before if thats the case, but then after each astpadi, why doesnt the mangal appear? so yes this is wrong.

Respect the innocence and simplicity.

I always see our gursikh brothers, following "the read as written" policy or sticking to "the views given by Mahapurakhs" rule, as very simple, honest and soldier type personalities. I respect these attributes and give all respect to those gursikhs.

But, can we suffice to live without simple logics? No body can dare to say no to what and in which format and in which sequence, Gurbani was written by Guru Ji. But, if a writer or a publisher or a group has somehow committed an error; and that becomes history after few years; are we bound to be so simple to deny the simple logics and respect the errors as respectable? Guru Ji bowed the arrow to a grave to check alertness of Khalsa. Khalsa passed the test. We were supposed to be alert, intelligent and having sword like minds; so that we shine as ideals of the human race. We need to get awake.

At the same time, we cannot break ties with our brothers, for their simlicity of mind.

there is an incredible collection of puratan saroops, hukamnamay, and other gurmukhi calligraphy at the following link:

[www.sikhsangat.com]

from the few photos showing manglacharan, they seem to come before the sirlekh. this is by no means a comprehensive collection, but it's somewhat relevant and certainly beautiful to view in any case.

vaheguroojeekaakhalsaa vaheguroojeekeefatheh

daas by no means intends to pursue that he posseses any knowledge of the mentioned topic(s). During a recent vichaar with a nihung singh, this topic was brought up and I wasnt looking forward to talking about it once again due to the lack of knowledge not only on this, but gurbanee in general.

daas only made him aware of the issue, but was unable to provide him each side's reasoning.

HE got a little birr rasiaa at this point and stated, "the puraatan saroops you and the singhs talk about arnt very puraatan. you guys dont know the meaning of puraatan. puraatan can mean guroo sahibs time, as well as last week. the saroops where the mangals are written after are the saroops which came about during the British rule and were meddled with by the english folk. they arnt very puraatan if thats what you think"

now daas didnt argue with him and neither do i posses an opinion on this. the way i go about doing my paath is when im doing any baanee out of kanth (not using pothi sahib), i will read mangals first. for example-

IkOnkaarSatgurParsaad || RaamkaleeMahalla3 || Anand

while reading from a pothi sahib, daas reads it the way it is written out of innocence and respect instead of using my own mat and budhi

point being, the nihung singhs statement might sound baseless to some of the sangat, but his point raised doubts again (LIKE EVERY THING THESE DAYS ) because this wasnt the first time daas heard about the ENGLISH meddling with gurbaani and saroops. I have heard it be4

Sangat is bakhshanhaar
please post more giaan on this topic

vaheguroojeekaakhalsaa vaheguroojeekeefatheh

how come nihangs blame everything on "english meddling", and what do the english gain by changing the order in which we read manglacharan or how many paurees of chapai sahib we read?

right on 1kaur ji. pakistanis blame israel and america for all evils happening in pakistan. same way, nihungs and deredaars blame everything on the british, as if british had nothing better to do than change the order of manglacharan.

why are we focusing on that, why not focus on the other point made by the nihang singh?

how puratan are those saroops that have all manglacharns first. every single person that iv talked to about this, they say that who ever does this, is using their buddi over gurmat, manmat(what they think should be right, over what it is right) even here this is a singh that comes to one of the gurdwarai and he changes the mangal on the hukamnama written by daas's ustaad jee.

this is a very big issue. we need to find the oldest possible saroops nad make this clear.

EVERYONE THINK FOR ONE MINUTE:

there must have been a VERY VERY VERY big reason why Sant Gurbachan Singh Jee Bhindranwale, and all those mahapurakhs got together as Sant Smaj to stop the SGPC from changing the mangals. just like raagmala has both sides, keski/kakkar, moolmanter, both sides have good points, we cant just go off and say your wrong, just because to you something doesnt make sense.

thats exactly what the anti dasam people go. i dont understand this, it cant be bani!

singho/bibio veechar karo, with an open mind

oddslot

I am glad this topic has been raised. If one is going to also tie this to puratan Maharaaj Saroops then please consider the following:

Quote
Akaali
With Guru Sahib's kirpaa daas has done darshan of praatan saroops hathlikhat by Guru Sahib jee with his dastakhat, and in many of the birs Manglacharan comes before in others it comes after.

1. Is it not quite a well known fact that Guru Jee never wrote any saroops themself? First time when Sri Guru Arjun Dev Sahib Jee dictated to Bhai Sahib Bhai Gurdaas Jee, second time when Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib Jee dictated to Shaheed Bhai Mani Singh Jee?

Quote
ms514
For many years, I had dreamed/hoped/wished that exact copies of the Puratan Saroops of Guru Granth Sahib Ji and the Kartarpuri Bir could be made. With SLR cameras and crazy megapixels and broadband internet, these could be made available for all to have Darshan of

2. Also, it is a known fact that the "Kartarpur Saroop" as it now known was not the original one Sri Guru Arjun Dev Sahib Jee dictated to Bhai Sahib Bhai Gurdaas Jee, and has many major mistakes in and empty angs (please see here for clarification). So obviously we cannot use the Kartarpur Saroop to clear any controversies regarding Mangla Charan or anything else. Some say the original one is actually known as Baba Ala Singh's Bir, this one has Mangla Charans written first every time and no kachi bani, and is considered the most shudh by many knowledgeable Gursikhs.

3. The Saroop which Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib Jee dictated to Shaheed Bhai Mani Singh Jee whereabouts are also unknown? So this means we cannot use this to make any decisions either.

Quote
Gupt Mastaanaa
now daas didnt argue with him and neither do i posses an opinion on this. the way i go about doing my paath is when im doing any baanee out of kanth (not using pothi sahib), i will read mangals first. for example-

IkOnkaarSatgurParsaad || RaamkaleeMahalla3 || Anand

while reading from a pothi sahib, daas reads it the way it is written out of innocence and respect instead of using my own mat and budhi

4. Gupt Mastaanaa Jee I really admire your respect for the written Gurbani, but please think about the following: One adds adhikks, tippis and bindis where appropriate whilst doing Paath, so how can we use that argument to say do Paath as it is written? One should not have double standards regarding these things and should always do what matches our Gurmat Bibek Budhi. You probably already know this, but in Master Jaswant Singh Jee's Gutka Sahibs manglaharan is always written first so if you may like to consider using them for doing Paath.

Quote
gsingh
this is a very big issue. we need to find the oldest possible saroops nad make this clear.

EVERYONE THINK FOR ONE MINUTE:

there must have been a VERY VERY VERY big reason why Sant Gurbachan Singh Jee Bhindranwale, and all those mahapurakhs got together as Sant Smaj to stop the SGPC from changing the mangals.

5. Before commenting on this I would like to say I'm not trying to make myself look more knowledgeable than Sant Gurbachan Singh Jee Bhindranwale or anyone else for that matter. I would not even be fit to be the dust of their holy feet. I think that the Sant Smaj members probably believed that the manglacharan being sometimes before and sometimes after was the way Guru Jee wanted it, and they may have seen SGPC attempts to make mangalcharan come first always as an attempt to meddle with or change Gurbani, not for what is was; an attempt to correct a mistake.

Quote
Sevadar84
daas has pictures of a Saroop of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, scribe seva done by Amar Shaheed Baba Deep Singh Ji.

In that Saroop, I've noticed the Mangals for Anand Sahib & Sukhmani Sahib are as follows:

- Anand Sahib: Ramkali Mahalla 3 Anand Ik Oankaar Satgur Prasaad

- Sukhmani Sahib: Goari Sukhmani M: 5 Salok Ik Oankaar Satgur Prasaad

6. Sevadar84 jee, how do we know Shaheed Baba Deep Singh Jee actually wrote those saroops themself? I think to make a definate decision from a puratan saroop could only be made from the saroop Sri Guru Arjun Dev Sahib Jee dictated to Bhai Sahib Bhai Gurdaas Jee, the one Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib Jee dictated to Shaheed Bhai Mani Singh Jee, or the one given Gurgaddi by Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib Jee at Nanded. But there is not such a saroop today which we can undisputedly without doubt say is one of the mentioned 3 above?

I would like to request all members to post opinions respectfully and avoid any hot-headed talk that may lead to the topic being closed. Please could Bhai Bilja Singh Jee share opinions on points raised above? All relevant and informed replies would be appreciated. I do ask forgiveness for all mistakes and request the Gursikhs to correct them.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

daas has pictures of a Saroop of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, scribe seva done by Amar Shaheed Baba Deep Singh Ji.

In that Saroop, I've noticed the Mangals for Anand Sahib & Sukhmani Sahib are as follows:

- Anand Sahib: Ramkali Mahalla 3 Anand Ik Oankaar Satgur Prasaad

- Sukhmani Sahib: Goari Sukhmani M: 5 Salok Ik Oankaar Satgur Prasaad

I can post the pictures, but I'm not sure how to upload them...

Please forgive for wrong doings.

JaspreetSingh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> Recently, another Singh daas heard talking about
> this topic regarding Manglacharan. This Singh was
> fully totally right in front of my eyes talking
> bad, i.e. slandering, some singhs because they
> prounounce the manglacharan first, and also tell
> others to do the same. This Singh was saying how
> its not right and you should read it the way its
> written, although I dont agree.
>


This is quite sad when a Singh cannot tolerate the views of a another Singh. Someone can do as much Naam Abhyiaas, paath, Seva as they want but without love for a fellow Singh then they have not learned much from doing these activities.

Sangat should be regarded as Guru Sahibs saroop when doing Veechar with a fellow Singh there should be no backbiting or harsh words used because Sikhi is the path of Love. In Prem Sumarag, GUru Sahib mentions that when Singhs get together they should meet each other with loving devotion. They should also sit, eat, drink,and talk ( do veechar) with respect. They should give the same respect to one another as much as they give to Guru Sahib. One is not suppose to speak so much- meaning engaging in idle talk; instead one should spend their time in loving devotion of Gurbani.

ਅਰੁ ਜਹਾਂ ਜਹਾਂ ਜਾਇ ਸੰਗੁ ਇਕੱਠੇ ਹੋਨੇ ਦਾ ਹੋਵੈ, ਉਥੈ ਆਪਸ ਮੈਂ ਅਦਬ ਭਾਓੁ ਪਿਆਰ ਕਰਨਾ। ਬੈਠਣਾ ਅਦਬ ਨਾਲਿ, ਬੋਲਣਾ ਅਦਬ ਨਾਲਿ, ਪ੍ਰਸ਼ਾਦ ਖਾਣਾ ਪੀਣਾ

ਅਦਬ ਨਾਲਿ। ਐਸਾ ਚ ਭਾਓੁ ਕਰਨਾ ਆਪਸ ਵਿਚਿ ਜੋ ਜੈਸਾ ਸਿਖ ਗੁਰੂ ਦਾ ਅਦਬ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ । ਬਹੁਤ ਬੋਲਣਾ ਨਾਹੀ। ਬਾਣੀ ਸਬਦ ਨਾਲਿ ਪਿਆਰ ਰਖਨਾ.

Prem Sumarag

Also Bhai DEsa Singh Ji mentions

ਗੁਰੂ ਸਰੂਪ ਖਾਲਸਾ ਹਈਏ ॥ ਜਿਨ ਕੀ ਟਹਿਲ ਪਰਮਸੁਖ ਲਹੀਏ

Our opinions should not be so intolerant that we are unwilling to acknowledge that the fellow- Singh is Guru Sahibs own image. By slandering another Singh or speaking harsh to another SIngh we are seen as apostates in GUru Sahibs eye. Also, Guru Sahib says one who speaks bad through aggression to another Singh is an apostate.


ਜੋ ਸਿਖ , ਸਿਖ ਦਾ ਮੂੰਹ ਫਿਟਕਾਰੇ , ਸੋ ਭੀ ਤਨਖਾਹੀਆ

ਜੋ ਸਿਖ , ਸਿਖ ਨੂੰ ਬੁਰਾ ਆਖੇ ਕ੍ਰੋਧ ਨਾਲ ਸੋ ਭੀ ਤਨਖਾਹੀਆ-Bhai Chaupa SIngh Ji rehatnamey

I feel some Gursikhs are starting to treat these different jathebandis as a caste. By doing so they have no tolerance or respect for the lifestyle or beliefs of another Gursikh. Meeting and socializing with other Gursikhs is an opportunity to exchange/trade Gurmat Veechar with one another; thus, one dives deeper in to the gems of treasure- house of GUrbani. It is our duty as a Gursikh to correct a fellow Gursikhs when their views are distorted , but it should never get to the point where we no longer view them as a Gursikh and try to avoid contact with them.


ਜੇ ਕੋਈ ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਲਹੁਂ ਭੁਲਦਾ ਹੋਵੈ ਤਾਂ ਸਮਝਾਵਣਾ, ਆਪਣੀਅਹੁੰ ਧਿਰਹੁੰ ਆਖਣਾ I ਜੇ ਮੰਨੇ ਨਾਹੀ ਤਾਂ ਓਹ ਜਾਣੇ ਏਹੁ ਆਖਣਾ ਗੁਰੂ ਕਾ ਹੈ
- Shri Guru Amar Das Ji

ਐਸਾ ਚ ਭਾਓੁ ਕਰਨਾ ਆਪਸ ਵਿਚਿ ਜੋ ਜੈਸਾ ਸਿਖ ਗੁਰੂ ਦਾ ਅਦਬ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ

Thank you Veer Ji, for posting very important lines from the hukamnamas.

MB Singh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ਐਸਾ ਚ ਭਾਓੁ ਕਰਨਾ ਆਪਸ
> ਵਿਚਿ ਜੋ ਜੈਸਾ ਸਿਖ
> ਗੁਰੂ ਦਾ ਅਦਬ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ
>
> Thank you Veer Ji, for posting very important
> lines from the hukamnamas.


No problem Veer Ji here is another Hukum that further explains the above Hukum, and explains why we should show pyaar to RehatVan Singhs regardless of minor differences.

ਰਹਿਤ ਰਹਤ ਸਮ ਸਿਖ ਜੋ, ਸੋ ਮੋਰੋ ਰੂਪਾਇ

ਵਾ ਮੈ ਮੋ ਮੈੱ ਭੇਦ ਨਹਿ, ਮਮ ਸਰੂਪ ਹੁਇ ਜਾਇ

can anyone share the sources and translation of these so we all can enjoy them?

ਐਸਾ ਚ ਭਾਓੁ ਕਰਨਾ ਆਪਸ ਵਿਚਿ ਜੋ ਜੈਸਾ ਸਿਖ ਗੁਰੂ ਦਾ ਅਦਬ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ
Welcome, greet, love, respect and cherish the company of the sikhs as a you respect the GURU. ( May be a poor attempt of mine. )

beautiful, thanks. advice we can all take to heart!

The following picture is of a Gutka of Guru Hargobind Sahib Jee:



As you can see it is Sukhmani Sahib. What is clear from the image is that the ManglaCharan comes first where as in modern Guktas the Mangalcaran does not come first. I have asked this previously to other people but I did not get any reply. So I will ask again. If Manglacharan does not come first does that mean Guru Hargobind Sahib Jee was wrong? who can be a bigger Brahmgiani Mahapursh then Guru Hargobind Sahib Jee? This is a same Guru Hargobind Sahib Jee whose father Guru Arjun Dev Jee wrote the Bani of Sukhmani Sahib.

An Absolutly Amazing Picture Mtiko jeeo. Thanks for posting this. Now this proves beyond doubt that Mangal must come first.

Kulbir Singh

veerjee, who wrote this poothee? the writing is really lovely.

Wonderful thougths Veer Jaskirat Singh jeeo.

Kulbir Singh

In the above stated picture it shows Raag Gauri. So is this another change we should make? From my limited knowledge I have not seen Raag come before Gauri. The authenicity of all these purataan saroops and gutkas can always be questioned. Seems to be good arguments on both sides, but I do somewhat question the reasoning in publicizing views on something that was already decided by amazing gursikhs of past. Or reading it publicly with the manglacharans first at Gurdwaras, with no actual resolution on the topic. Without a doubt several people will begin accusing you of using your own mat to change gurbani. And as a result creating more walls and strife between jathas in the panth.

These views are not of the poster, but of his brother.

Wjkk Wjkf!

Quote
Wahegurulove Jee wrote:
In the above stated picture it shows Raag Gauri. So is this another change we should make? From my limited knowledge I have not seen Raag come before Gauri.

Waheguru Ji ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji ki Fateh

I am wondering people who can not even read the daily nitnem with open eyes are now participating in Panthic level discussion. Guru Hee Rakha. Piyare jio, recite Sohila Sahib tonight with concentration you will get the clear answer from Gurbani.

ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥

ਸੋਹਿਲਾ ਰਾਗੁ ਗਉੜੀ ਦੀਪਕੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੧

ਜੈ ਘਰਿ ਕੀਰਤਿ ਆਖੀਐ ਕਰਤੇ ਕਾ ਹੋਇ ਬੀਚਾਰੋ ॥
ਤਿਤੁ ਘਰਿ ਗਾਵਹੁ ਸੋਹਿਲਾ ਸਿਵਰਿਹੁ ਸਿਰਜਣਹਾਰੋ ॥੧॥
ਤੁਮ ਗਾਵਹੁ ਮੇਰੇ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਕਾ ਸੋਹਿਲਾ ॥
ਹਉ ਵਾਰੀ ਜਿਤੁ ਸੋਹਿਲੈ ਸਦਾ ਸੁਖੁ ਹੋਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥...

ਰਾਗੁ ਗਉੜੀ ਪੂਰਬੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੪ ॥
ਕਾਮਿ ਕਰੋਧਿ ਨਗਰੁ ਬਹੁ ਭਰਿਆ ਮਿਲਿ ਸਾਧੂ ਖੰਡਲ ਖੰਡਾ ਹੇ ॥
ਪੂਰਬਿ ਲਿਖਤ ਲਿਖੇ ਗੁਰੁ ਪਾਇਆ ਮਨਿ ਹਰਿ ਲਿਵ ਮੰਡਲ ਮੰਡਾ ਹੇ ॥੧॥
ਕਰਿ ਸਾਧੂ ਅੰਜੁਲੀ ਪੁਨੁ ਵਡਾ ਹੇ ॥
ਕਰਿ ਡੰਡਉਤ ਪੁਨੁ ਵਡਾ ਹੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ...

Such remarks clearly shows how ignorant we are about the precious Gurbani.

With Regards,
Daas