Perneet Singh
Tribune News Service
Amritsar, December 8

With the recent chaos over the dates for celebration of Guru Gobind Singh’s birth anniversary reviving the Nanakshahi Calendar row, there are reports that the ruling SAD is contemplating to completely do away with the amended Nanakshahi Calendar and revert to the Bikrami Calendar so as to end the confusion once and for all.

The controversy has been casting a shadow on the events in the Sikh calendar off and on for the last four years ever since the amended Nanakshahi Calendar came into being.

Sources said the ruling SAD had taken a serious note of the turn of events and sought opinion from Sikh intellectuals and religious leaders over the issue. Sources said the Akali Dal would most probably opt for Bikrami Calendar as it was acceptable to the entire community prior to 2003 when the original Nanakshahi Calendar was implemented.

Sources said the top Akali leaders had already held deliberations with the representatives of the Sant Samaj, SGPC president Avtar Singh Makkar and two of the five Sikh high priests. They said most of the Sikh religious leaders had suggested that the only way to end the confusion was to either adopt the Bikrami Calendar or original Nanakshahi Calendar.

They have warned against any further tampering with original or amended Nanakshahi Calendar as they felt it would only add to the confusion. At present, the community stands divided over the issue.

On one hand are the organisations like the American Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee (AGPC), Pakistan Sikh Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee (PSGPC), SAD (Delhi) and Dal Khalsa that are advocating the need to revert to the original Nanakshahi Calendar. On the other is the Sant Samaj, which supports the Bikrami Calendar.

The challenge, therefore, before the SAD is to bridge the divide and come out with a solution that is acceptable to all.

Why the change

The confusion due to the amended Nanakshahi Calendar was always there

But the scenario turned more chaotic this time after the Sikh clergy announced a new date for celebratingGuru Gobind Singh's birth anniversary
As the Gurpurb was coinciding with the martyrdom day of Sahibzadas on December 28, the high priests announced the Gurpurb on January 7

It resulted into three dates for the Gurpurb, which was falling on January 5 as per the original Nanakshahi Calendar

Within a week, Akal Takht was forced to make a volte face as a majority of the Sikhs had made preparations for celebrating the event on December 28

Bikrami Calendar is the way to go!

Now so much confusion is in place that you have to check a few times to find the right dates of Gurpurbs. In situations where you have to make a quick decision, this can be very stressful.

Preetam Singh

Sardar Purewal warned about these confusions and flawed dates when Hansa-Di-Jodi (Mr. Makkar and Mr. Dhumma) the self claimed calender experts fooled with NanakShaahi calender in 2010.

Purewal is responsible for slamming a flawed calendar on sikhs. It was ignorance on his part to fix birthday date of Guru Gobind Singh ji's birth
on Jan 5. Guru sahib's birth was on poh sudi satmi and hence connected with phases of moon. Purewal's calendar will not work there.

His calendar starting year is 1999.Guru Nanak sahib was born in 1469.What did he do with 530 years of sikh history? How can he call it Nanakshahi calendar?

His supporters are erroneously labeling Bikrami calendar as Hindu calendar and misleading sikhs by false propaganda. Bikrami calendar is of Iran origin.

[connection.ebscohost.com]

The article discusses the origin of the Hindu lunar calendar known as the Vikram Samvant. It references the book "Ancient Malwa and the Vikramaditya Tradition" by Dinesh Chandra Sircar. According to Sircar, the supposed founder of the calendar, Vikramaditya, may not have existed, and the calendar may be East Iranian in origin. Details on the Parthian ruler Vonones and his possible rule in disseminating the calendar are presented. Other topics include the Saka calendar of 78 AD, allegedly introduced by a ruler from Pratisthan named Salivahana.

More facts about so called Pal Singh Purewal's calendar by Prof Anurag singh ji.


Prof Anurag Singh of the International Human Rights Organisation (IHRO) Sikh Affairswas asked to prepare a Note on the Nanakshahi controversial calendar so that the IHRO may take a stand and do lobby to get it through so as to clear the mist among the Sikh people worldwide - DS Gill Chair IHRO.

Nanakshahi Calendar : A Historical Blunder
The so-called Sikh Calendar, presented to the Sikh world as Nanakshahi Calendar by learned fraternity of Chandigarh, known for creating controversies and backing the adversaries of Sikh Panth, Gurbaksh Singh Kala Afghana openly, backed Sardar Pal Singh Purewal, Government’s sponsored campaign to distort the Sikh history, and introduce a new Calendar in the sacred name of Guru Nanak.
Here it is pertinent to mention the following two facts:
The Shiromani Gurdwara Parbandak Committee (SGPC) neither passed any resolution for replacing the existing Sikh Calendar nor entrusted the job to Pal Singh Purewal.
Pal Singh Purewal Singh’s Jantri 500 Years was published by Punjab School Education Board in 1994 during the tenure of Chief Minister Beant Singh,whereas the Board is supposed to publish the text books for the school students with the quota of paper supplied to it. This was the first and last book, meant for researchers, published by the board.
Here, I may add that when this very Jantri of Purewal was extensively quoted to question the wisdom of Mr Purewal, all the copies of this Jantri were exported to Canada. With this Jantri of Purewal, the Institute of Sikh Studies, Chandigarh, in its meeting dated November 27, 1995, prepared the Sikh Calendar within two hours, and presented to the SGPC through Dr Kharak Singh, member Dharm Parchar Committee of the SGPC to replace the traditional Sikh Calendar with distorted dates and history of the Sikhs in this so-called Nanakshahi Calendar.

In the Calendar, Pal Singh Purewal and his associates have taken the shelter of mendacious assertions and perfidious lies and till date neither Purewal nor his associates, could either confront or controvert or weaken in any manner the following historical facts pointed out by me and other scholars exposing the misleading lies of Mr Purewal:
Before introduction of this distorted Calendar, a Sikh Calendar was/is used, and Nanakshahi Samvat was also used. This fact has been highlighted in 1993, long before the so-called Nanakshahi Calendar was introduced, in the Oxford Dictionary of World Religions (EdJohn Bowker): “The Sikhs’ religious Calendar is a modified form of the Bikrami Calendar.” (p 188). The first perfidy of Mr Purewal was exposed, who claimed that he is the architect of the Sikh Calendar.
Secondly, the tall claim of Mr Purewal that he is the maker of Nanakshahi Calendar, which is original, was also exposed asit nothing but a carbon copy of the National Calendar of India, introduced in March 1957 by Indian Government as a Civil Calendar, and is based on Saka Calendar, on which the Hindu Religious Calendar is also based. In the Nanakshahi Calendar and the National Calendar of India, five months are of 31 days and seven months are of 30 days. Whereas in Saka Hindu Calendar the month of Chet is of 31 days in during leap year and in Nanakshahi the month of Phagan is of 31 days. Mr Purewal has confirmed this fact in his book Jantri 500 Years,saying “The Saka year that starts in Common Era leap year will also be a leap year. The year will always begin on March 21 is a leap year. This way the months of the Saka Era will maintain constant relationship with those of CommonEra.” (p iv). In this way, Mr Purewal cleverly introduced the National Calendar of India, based on Saka Calendar (on which the Hindu Religion Calendar is based) as Nanakshahi Calendar. Interested readers may consult The Hindu Religious Year — by M.M. Underhill (1921).
Thirdly, Mr Purewal spread the canard that Bikrami Calendar is a Hindu calendar and was introduced by a Hindu King of India Vikramaditya Bikrami Calendar had no connection with any Hindu king Vikramaditya, nor Vikramaditya is the name. This is mere a title which was assumed by eight monarchs of India. The first monarch so named was Chandraguptya II (376-414 AD)and this emperor was in constant war with the western India. It is accepted fact that Bikrami Calendar was introduced by the Malwa people of North-west Punjab in 57 BC, i.e., 433 years (57+376) before the first Vikramaditya title was assumed by Chandraguptya of Ujjain (Ancient Malwa and Vikramaditya Tradition by Dr D.C. Sircar, 1969). Thus, Bikrami Calendar was introduced in 57 BC on the land of five rivers in Punjab by a valiant community known as Malwa people, who were inhabitants of the valley of river Ravi. A section of these people migrated to Jaipur, Tonk region of Rajasthan, under pressure of foreign invasions. It was known as Malwa Samvat, which is evident from the historical records. “The era handed down by the Malwa republic” (Ancient Indian History & Culture www.kanpuruniversity.org/syllabus/ma.pdfPolitical History of Ancient India 325 H.C. - 319 AD. Rise of Mauryas- D.R. Bhandarkar, 1921 (Nos 5, 6, 9). Malwa people carried forward this Calendar to Rajasthan. Originally it started with the month of Katak. Hence, this Calendar is of East Iranian origin and is in use only in North-Western India. The Sikh Gurus accepted this Calendar and modified it according to Sikh ethics to make a Sikh Calendar in true sense, while in Hindu traditions it is known by the name ‘Vikarmi Samvat’ as Hindus normally use ‘V’ in place of ‘B’. In Sikh religious and historical literature it is known as Bikrami Samvat in accordance with the dialect used in Sri Guru Granth Sahib, Dasam Granth and related literature.
- Prof Anurag Singh
Email: anuragsingh153@yahoo.com
Cell Phone: +91 9872823277 (Ludhiana)
10475913_678695698894526_892647383131687





[www.facebook...678555832241846]

I always wonder if Nanakshaahi calender is so dumb and these scholars have strong favor in flawlessness of Bikrami calender then why they don't challenge Sardar Purewal on Sri Akaal Takhat Sahib or on a common place to settle the case once. Or accept his challenge to discuss openly.

SGPC invited Pal singh Purewal for meetings before amendments to calendar were made. He did not want attend meetings.

Where did purewal throw the challenge to panthic calendar experts? Let us see a reference to such a challenge.

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"SGPC invited Pal singh Purewal for meetings before amendments to calendar were made. He did not want attend meetings."

This is pure blameshy that he didn't want to attend the meeting. According to Sardar Purewal he was given very short notice of couple of days before meeting via email for which he was not able to come from Canada. After that meeting attendees said they will invite him with properly given time but no invitation came since then. See below videos especially last one for the email invitation.

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Where did purewal throw the challenge to panthic calendar experts? Let us see a reference to such a challenge.

Your question tells me that you never listened to other side of the aisle. If you had follow what Purewal is saying since 2010 you shouldn't have raised this question. Which shows how ignorant one becomes when don't hear both sides. In his various lectures since 2010 he mentions to call him for explanation on his calender. Again if you go through these videos you will get his side of explanation on NanakShaahi Calender and various shortcomings in Bikrami calender. See his last video (3:00) where he asks to call upon him with all the people who opposes Nanaksahahi Calender including Sant Samaaj in presence of Jathedaars and other Panthic Jathebandia.





Further to this video, see this news of earlier this year from Times of India:
[timesofindia.indiatimes.com]

Purewal: Amended Nanakshahi calendar a step back
TNN | Mar 21, 2014, 03.26AM IST

AMRITSAR: Disapproving "amendments" in the Nankshahi calendar (NC), its Canada-based author Pal Singh Purewal said on Thursday, "These are not amendments but a retrograde step which has taken the almanac back to Bikrami calendar (BC)."

Purewal also held a meeting with Sikh clergy and apprised them of technical aspects of the Nanakshahi calendar and how changes in it had once again taken it back to Bikrami calendar. Talking to mediapersons, Purewal pointed out at few "mistakes" in the Shiromani Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee (SGPC)-published Nanakshahi calendar for 2014-15.

He alleged that under pressure from Sant Samaj and BJP, Sikh clerics had given their approval to make changes in the Nanakshahi calendar adopted in 2003. However, he said, majority of Sikhs living abroad still observed Sikh religious days according to the original Nanakshahi calendar and didn't accept changes made thereafter. Akal Takht Jathedar Giani Gurbachan Singh said that Purewal had explained his concerns about amendments in the calendar to them. He said that all Panthic bodies should gather on a single platform to have a consensus on the Nanakshahi calendar.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Inder Singh Jio, would you arrange a meeting at Sri Akaal Takhat Sahib or gathering of Panthic bodies on a single platform to resolve this issue at once?

Purewal went to attend a hurriedly convened world sikh convention called by Mr Sarna.Why could not he go to meeting called by SGPC?
This is just an excuse by him.

Jasjit singh ji, it seems you have not watched video posted by me in another thread.Pl watch again posted below. In opening minute Col Nishan says that in DEc 1999 a meeting was arranged between akal takhat and purewal.In that meeting pal singh with his associates and col Nishan were present.In that meeting Col Nishan asked him what is starting year of his calendar.Purewal told that it was 1999. Akal takhat jathedar was taken aback and asked purewal was it 1469 or 1999 aD? Purewal told it was 1999.

Then Col Nishan asks him since length of his year is different from prevalent Bikrami calendar and now it starts from 1999, since units have changed has he applied a correction factor.Purewal replied that he did not.

Common sense says that with this dates will start changing and after about say a few thousand years month of vaisakh may be in winter.Bani of barah mahn will become doubtful.

May be because of these mistakes in his calendar he evades meetings with panthic scholars.

Please watch this from starting minute.

[www.youtube.com]

Prof Anurag singh is in know of meetings evaded by Purewal deliberately.He was present in all meetings.His phone number is given in earlier post.
He is son of Dr Tarlochan singh ji and a very nice gentleman.You can call him and confirm about evasion of Purewal from attending meetings.

Sangat jeeo,

I feel SGPC could have resolved but they have no backbone and are defunct.

Quote

Purewal went to attend a hurriedly convened world sikh convention called by Mr Sarna.

Comparing two irrelevant situations leads to misconception.

Quote

Why could not he go to meeting called by SGPC? This is just an excuse by him.

I think you didn’t pay attention to his answer. He clearly stated that on November 24th he got an email to attend a meeting going to be held few days later on Nov 27th. He immediately replied back explaining that this is a too short notice, he just had couple of visits to Punjab in recent months and now due to health reason he is not able to make necessary arrangement in couple of days to attend meeting on 27th. He asked SGPC if meeting must go on 27th then what he can do is attend via videoconference. Looks like they agreed and Sardar Purewal waited all night long (in Canada) to have conference call but after he didn’t hear from them for several hours he called them to get information. He got the reply of meeting is over and they we will invite him to next meeting soon with enough time. Since then no invitation arrived.

How this can be classified as an excuse?

Question is why would they rushed meeting on such a high scale subject without taking everyone in confidence? Secondly, the way SGPC leaders and other lobbyists held closed door calendar amendment meetings and finally chose Mr. Makkar and Mr. Dhumma to recommend amendments is totally absurd per say. It clearly indicates that they were determined to do the changes no matter what. Sending short notice invitation to Purewal was mere a formality.

I would say thanks to Guru Sahib that Purewal couldn’t make to that meeting otherwise these people including yourself would be accusing Sardar Purewal for involved in amended 2010 calendar.

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Jasjit singh ji, it seems you have not watched video posted by me in another thread.Pl watch again posted below. In opening minute Col Nishan says that in DEc 1999 a meeting was arranged between akal takhat and purewal.In that meeting pal singh with his associates and col Nishan were present.In that meeting Col Nishan asked him what is starting year of his calendar.Purewal told that it was 1999. Akal takhat jathedar was taken aback and asked purewal was it 1469 or 1999 aD? Purewal told it was 1999.

Then Col Nishan asks him since length of his year is different from prevalent Bikrami calendar and now it starts from 1999, since units have changed has he applied a correction factor.Purewal replied that he did not.

Common sense says that with this dates will start changing and after about say a few thousand years month of vaisakh may be in winter.Bani of barah mahn will become doubtful.

May be because of these mistakes in his calendar he evades meetings with panthic scholars.

Please watch this from starting minute.

[www.youtube.com]

I went thru videos you have posted and most of questions Sardar Nishan Singh jee has raised were answered by Sardar Purewal in various lectures and I believe in his meetings as well. I absolutely have no time to collect each one to post here. But to your last comment that he pointed on implementation of calendar in 1469 vs. 1999. Yes, he has a valid point but Sardar Nishan Singh didn’t explain in detail what Sardar Purewal mentioned except saying he didn’t do the corrections as per 1999 time base. Being a calendar expert he didn't offer any counter proposal either in this video.

One has to understand the difficulty in converting the dates due to variations in actual dates. Sardar Purewal gave one of the reason is “The problem of accurate conversion and of checking the accuracy of original dates given in Bikarami and Hijri eras was due to lack of availability of detailed almanacs and lack of expertise in this field by historians, and to certain extent due to the carelessness by the authors while working with the dates.”

Again this 1469 vs.1999 is not a big issue to dispel Nanakshahi calender, if these scholars sit together with only one aim to favor Khalsa Panth and put aside ones ego then it can be resolved. Issue is political than technical.

Furthermore, I watched Colonel Nishan Singh’s 4th video as well. I am posting his last part here for reference.


From what he mentioned in this video, it can be deduced that he was involved or agreed to the amendments proposed in 2010. If he agreed to these amendments then his credibility on calendar issue becomes questionable more than ever. Look the consequences of 2010 amendments, even the ones who favor pre-2003 era calendar (Bikrami) they call 2010 amended calendar a DISASATER.

Sarder Purewal warned about consequences of amended calendar including Sahibjadae Shaheedi divas and Dasam Patshah’s Gurpaurb will fall on same day in 2014. Not only this year but also in 2025 as well. His opponents and makers of 2010 amended calendar criticized him but now they see the blunder they made. Still I would say if they realize their mistake and sit together with Purewal, better solution can come out.

Credibility of so called scholars involved in amended 2010 calendar is exposed now.

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Prof Anurag singh is in know of meetings evaded by Purewal deliberately.He was present in all meetings.His phone number is given in earlier post.
He is son of Dr Tarlochan singh ji and a very nice gentleman.You can call him and confirm about evasion of Purewal from attending meetings.

Who can deny the fact that Dr. Tarlochan Singh Jee was one of the great scholar, I am Balihaar to his great contribution to Khalsa Panth thru his literature. Indeed his son Prof Anurag Singh also following father’s foot print and I commend his role in dealing with anti-Dasam Granth lobby. If need arises I will contact him.

Purewal did not tell akal takhat /other members of committee that base year of his calendar was 1999. He was caught by Col Nishan on this.That amounts to cheating.

Since length of year chosen by Purewal is different from Bikrami calendar,he needs to apply corrections to years before 1999 i.e. base year of his calendar.he said he did not do that. He was caught on that also.That is another grave error.This was before he thrust his flawed calendar on us.

Why should he do that? if he has not got expertise he should not force his inaccurate calendar on sikhs. Purewal does not attend meetings because he is scared to face experts.

He also goes beyond subject of calendar and resorts to false and mischievous propaganda on bani of Guru gobind singh ji saying that day of completion given at end of chaupai sahib bani in Dasam granth is wrong. His supporter lobby of kala afghanists post his false invention on their website.see below

[www.singhsabhacanada.com]

ਪਾਲ ਸਿੰਘ ਪੁਰੇਵਾਲ ਜੀ ਨੇ ਕੌਮ ਦੀ ਬਹੁਤ ਵੱਡੀ ਸੇਵਾ ਕੀਤੀ ਹੈ, ਉਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਨੇ 500 ਸਾਲਾ ਜੰਤਰੀ ਬਣਾ ਕੇ ਇਤਿਹਾਸ ਦੀਆਂ ਸਹੀ ਤਾਰੀਖਾਂ ਸਾਡੇ ਸਾਮ੍ਹਣੇ ਰੱਖੀਆਂ ਹਨ। ਇਸ ਸੇਵਾ ਵਿੱਚ ਉਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਨੇ ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰੋਪਾਖਿਆਨ ਦੇ ਅੰਤ ਵਿੱਚ ਦਿੱਤੀ ਗਈ ਤਾਰੀਖ ਨੂੰ ਵੀ ਗਲਤ ਸਾਬਿਤ ਕੀਤਾ ਹੈ ਤੇ ਬਿਚਿਤਰ ਨਾਟਕ ਦੇ ਹਿਮਾਇਤੀਆਂ ਨੂੰ ਇਹ ਗੱਲ ਰਾਸ ਨਹੀਂ ਆਈ।
ਬਹੁਤ ਲੋਕਾਂ ਨੇ ਹਾਸੋਹੀਣੀ ਅਤੇ ਬੇਤੁਕੀਆਂ ਦਲੀਲਾਂ ਦੇ ਕੇ ਬਿਚਿਤਰ ਨਾਟਕ ਦੇ ਲਿਖਾਰੀ ਦੀ ਇਸ ਗਲਤੀ ਨੂੰ ਸਹੀ ਸਾਬਿਤ ਕਰਨ ਦੀ ਕੋਸ਼ਿਸ਼ ਕੀਤੀ ਹੈ, ਐਸੀ ਹੀ ਹਾਸੋਹੀਣੀ ਹਰਕਤ ਇਕ ਬੀਬੀ ਅਮਰਜੀਤ ਕੌਰ ਨੇ ਵੀ ਕੀਤੀ ਹੈ, ਬੀਬੀ ਨੇ ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰੋਪਾਖਿਆਨ ਦੇ ਖਤਮ ਹੋਣ ਦੀ ਗਲਤ ਤਾਰੀਖ ਨੂੰ ਸਹੀ ਸਾਬਿਤ ਕਰਨ ਦੀ ਕੋਸ਼ਿਸ਼ ਕੀਤੀ, ਪਾਖਿਆਨ ਦੇ ਅੰਤ ਵਿੱਚ ਲੇਖਕ ਨੇ ਇਹ ਤਾਰੀਖ ਇਕ ਚੌਪਾਈ ਵਿੱਚ ਦਰਜ ਕੀਤੀ ਹੈ–

ਚੌਪਈ ॥

ਸੰਬਤ ਸੱਤ੍ਰਹ ਸਹਸ ਭਣਿੱਜੈ ॥ ਅਰਧ ਸਹਸ ਫੁਨਿ ਤੀਨਿ ਕਹਿੱਜੈ ॥

ਭਾਦ੍ਰਵ ਸੁਦੀ ਅਸ਼ਟਮੀ ਰਵਿ ਵਾਰਾ ॥ ਤੀਰ ਸਤੁੱਦ੍ਰਵ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸੁਧਾਰਾ ॥੪੦੫॥

Unquote

Purewal says that it was Tuesday on that day but Guru sahib has written Ravivar( Sunday) in Dasam Granth.So per purewal Dasam bani is wrong.

That shows how shallow he is in his knowledge about sikh history books. I have read it myself in rehatnama Bhai chaupa singh and Guru kian sakhian (two different sources) that it was Sunday on that day. Please ask him if he accepts my challenge on this.That shows that he has an agenda to discredit sikh scriptures by malicious propaganda.

Mainly it was Prof Anurag singh who made amendments in Purewal's calendar.col nishan was there to help him. If someone contacts him he will reveal how Purewal played dodging tricks in not attending meetings.

Jasjit singh ji wrote

Sarder Purewal warned about consequences of amended calendar including Sahibjadae Shaheedi divas and Dasam Patshah’s Gurpaurb will fall on same day in 2014. Not only this year but also in 2025 as well. His opponents and makers of 2010 amended calendar criticized him but now they see the blunder they made. Still I would say if they realize their mistake and sit together with Purewal, better solution can come out.

=========================================================================================================

Jasjit singh ji

Purewal has fixed birthday event of Guru sahib on Jan 5 each year. We all know that Guru sahib was born on Poh sudi satmi. This is connected with phases of moon. How come he has fixed that day per solar calendar once for all. Is it right to do that.Poh sudi satmi falls on Dec 28.

Where does Akhand Kirtani Jatha stand with the calander issue? Which one do you think we should be following?

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="Purewal did not tell akal takhat /other members of committee that base year of his calendar was 1999. He was caught by Col Nishan on this.That amounts to cheating.

Since length of year chosen by Purewal is different from Bikrami calendar,he needs to apply corrections to years before 1999 i.e. base year of his calendar.he said he did not do that. He was caught on that also.That is another grave error.This was before he thrust his flawed calendar on us.

Why should he do that? if he has not got expertise he should not force his inaccurate calendar on sikhs. Purewal does not attend meetings because he is scared to face experts.

You are unnecessarily dragging your posts by accusing Purewal for not facing scholars. As I presented before that he openly asks to have discussion, why don't you accept his challenge?

If your issue is only 1469 vs. 1999 then I would say study yourself basics of solar calender. I am not expert in calender but still I must say you need reference time base for date conversions. If you choose 1469 then due to discrepancies in accuracy of dates from various sources available, especially when some historians converted to CE from various Bikrami calenders, It becomes a big hurdle for accurate conversion. This could result in incorrect dates and hence messes up the whole sequence of events. This is a subject of scholars to agree upon accuracy of dates whether it's according to different Bikrami calenders used in Indian origin and/or CE calender dates of Guru Sahib's physical period.

Quote
ਚੌਪਈ ॥

ਸੰਬਤ ਸੱਤ੍ਰਹ ਸਹਸ ਭਣਿੱਜੈ ॥ ਅਰਧ ਸਹਸ ਫੁਨਿ ਤੀਨਿ ਕਹਿੱਜੈ ॥

ਭਾਦ੍ਰਵ ਸੁਦੀ ਅਸ਼ਟਮੀ ਰਵਿ ਵਾਰਾ ॥ ਤੀਰ ਸਤੁੱਦ੍ਰਵ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸੁਧਾਰਾ ॥੪੦੫॥

Unquote

Purewal says that it was Tuesday on that day but Guru sahib has written Ravivar( Sunday) in Dasam Granth.So per purewal Dasam bani is wrong.

That shows how shallow he is in his knowledge about sikh history books. I have read it myself in rehatnama Bhai chaupa singh and Guru kian sakhian (two different sources) that it was Sunday on that day. Please ask him if he accepts my challenge on this.That shows that he has an agenda to discredit sikh scriptures by malicious propaganda.

If you are so sure about your findings then why don't you challenge him or accept his?

Quote
Mainly it was Prof Anurag singh who made amendments in Purewal's calendar.col nishan was there to help him. If someone contacts him he will reveal how Purewal played dodging tricks in not attending meetings.

If it is true that Prof Anurag Singh Jee made amendments in 2010 then I feel very sorry for him but still I have great respect for his work on Dasam Granth.

Quote
Jasjit singh ji

Purewal has fixed birthday event of Guru sahib on Jan 5 each year. We all know that Guru sahib was born on Poh sudi satmi. This is connected with phases of moon. How come he has fixed that day per solar calendar once for all. Is it right to do that.Poh sudi satmi falls on Dec 28.

Inder Singh Jee,

At the same time 23 Poh is solar date of Sri Dasmesh Jee's parkaash time which now falls on Januray 5 CE. There is nothing wrong with this fix date. Interestingly, Poh Sudi Samptami also sometime differs when you use Bikrami calendar of different Panchangs.

Purewal should have challenged these scholars at appropriate time and that time was when they were amending his calendar.
What is the purpose of challenging them arbitarily held conferences by those elements who are confusing sikhs about banis
of Khade bate dee pahul.

Jasjit singh wrote

If you are so sure about your findings then why don't you challenge him or accept his?

My response

First of all there is an edict from akal takhat that those who mislead sikhs on Dasam Granth are mischievous elements(shrarti ansar). Why purewal is joining them especially when it is not his subject.

I have given two sources from books written in that period which testify to date given by Guru sahib in Dasam Granth.That exposes lies of purewal.
His supporters of kala afghana lobby were quoting him in newspapers on this and i did rebut them wherever i could.

Jasjit singh wrote

At the same time 23 Poh is solar date of Sri Dasmesh Jee's parkaash time which now falls on Januray 5 CE. There is nothing wrong with this fix date. Interestingly, Poh Sudi Samptami also sometime differs when you use Bikrami calendar of different Panchangs.

My response

Jasjit singh ji, sudi is connected with phases of moon and has nothing to do with solar calendars. Poh sudi satmi means in month of poh seven days after amawas. Sangrad of poh is on 16th Dec. and amawas is on 21st Dec. So poh sudi satmi is on 28th Dec. It is related to relative position of earth and moon.

Same way Guru Nanak dev ji's birthday was on katak pooranmashi i.e. on full moon night. Again connected with phases of moon.No one can prefix it permanently.

why is india even following solar/gorgian callender , simply follow bikarami for all india

sherrsinghaz Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> why is india even following solar/gorgian
> callender , simply follow bikarami for all india

After British left in 1947, Indian Govt constituted a committee to draft a calendar of their own for Govt to follow.
Mixture of Gregorian and saka calendar was adopted by them.

Bikrami calendar is followed in north west of India.Other states for example Bengal, Madras , Kerala etc have their own regional calendars.

There is an interview by Col nishan in VancouverC, Canada in sept 2014 on a TV show.It clarifies quite a few points

[www.youtube.com]

[www.youtube.com]

[www.youtube.com]

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"Purewal should have challenged these scholars at appropriate time and that time was when they were amending his calendar.

Indeed he did at appropriate time, you are intentionally denying this fact. Anyway its your choice. In fact your calender scholars are scared to face him so they didn't invite him in further meetings.

Sorry to say those so called calender experts who amended calender in 2010 are exposed now that how capable they are to handle calender issue. This thread itself is a result of colossal failure of amendments. It clearly shows how much knowledge they have on making a calender.

Quote

"What is the purpose of challenging them arbitarily held conferences by those elements who are confusing sikhs about banis
of Khade bate dee pahul.

Here you go, you were given all the proofs you have asked in earlier posts but now you are starting to politicize this subject. Here is another reference from 2011 for your kind information:



Purewal said, “I have written this letter to the Jathedar based on technical facts and not opinions. I challenge the people objecting to the original calendar to show their credentials. They have no right to criticise the calendar.”

Accept his challenge and show your gut. Lets have gathering at Sri Akaal Takhat Sahib or other common place, bring your scholars and have a discussion in presence of all Panthic Jathebadia. What stopping you or your scholars to face him now? This is the appropriate time since they are thinking to go back to Bikrami calender. What other appropriate time you are waiting for? His death? Then you will accept his challenge?

Quote

"Jasjit singh wrote

If you are so sure about your findings then why don't you challenge him or accept his?

My response

First of all there is an edict from akal takhat that those who mislead sikhs on Dasam Granth are mischievous elements(shrarti ansar). Why purewal is joining them especially when it is not his subject.

I have given two sources from books written in that period which testify to date given by Guru sahib in Dasam Granth.That exposes lies of purewal.
His supporters of kala afghana lobby were quoting him in newspapers on this and i did rebut them wherever i could."]

Again don't steer the subject. Offer something if you have to say more on 2010 amended calender or NanakSahai Calender or Pre-2003 Bikrami calender. Purewal go to Muslims too to discuss their calender matters, what this has to do with our discussion here?

Quote

"Jasjit singh wrote

At the same time 23 Poh is solar date of Sri Dasmesh Jee's parkaash time which now falls on Januray 5 CE. There is nothing wrong with this fix date. Interestingly, Poh Sudi Samptami also sometime differs when you use Bikrami calendar of different Panchangs.

My response

Jasjit singh ji, sudi is connected with phases of moon and has nothing to do with solar calendars. Poh sudi satmi means in month of poh seven days after amawas. Sangrad of poh is on 16th Dec. and amawas is on 21st Dec. So poh sudi satmi is on 28th Dec. It is related to relative position of earth and moon.

Same way Guru Nanak dev ji's birthday was on katak pooranmashi i.e. on full moon night. Again connected with phases of moon.No one can prefix it permanently."

Inder Singh Jee,

Again it looks like you are intentionally missing my answer. Anyhow, Poh Sudi Saptami is Mubaarik to you but don't criticize NanakSaahi calender why Gurpurab date is fixed on January 5th.

I thought you are familiar with Sidaants of Bikrami calender and you would ask what I meant to be from "Interestingly, Poh Sudi Samptami also sometime differs when you use Bikrami calendar of different Panchangs." But you are stuck in phobic imaginations of phases of moons, so I can't help here.

YOU WILL BE CELEBRATING SRI DASMESH JEE"S 350th PARKAASH PURAB ON JANUARY 5th IN 2017, NOT ONLY YOU WHOLE PANTH WILL BE CELEBARTING ON THIS DATE NO MATTER FOLLOW BIKRAMI OR NANAKSHAHI CALENDER.

If you find the answer why it's on same day then let me know otherwise I have nothing else to say for you.

During this discussion if you find my words to be harsh or disrespectful to you then I beg Khima Jio.

Could someone post the actual date of Siri Guru Gobind Singh jee;'s Avtaar as per the solar calender? Was it January 5th?

The solar date of Avtaar of Siri Guru jee is said to be December 22, 1666 as per Julian calender. Now add to this 11 days that were dropped as a result of conversion from Julian to Gregorian. The date comes to December 2. Why did Purewal chose the date January 5 as Gurpurab?

Kulbir Singh

23 Poh 1723 BK / 22 December 1666 Julian.

So how does the Purewal's calender set the date to January 5.

Kulbir Singh

Quote
The solar date of Avtaar of Siri Guru jee is said to be December 22, 1666 as per Julian calender. Now add to this 11 days that were dropped as a result of conversion from Julian to Gregorian. The date comes to December 2. Why did Purewal chose the date January 5 as Gurpurab?

Bhai Sahib Jio,

This is where the whole confusion lies in calendar issue, because of prejudice towards NanakShaahi calendar we all associate the solar dates towards Georgian calendar and then criticism starts because NanakShahi date doesn't match when calculated from original solar date of Bikrami.

This is what Purewal advocated and I tend to agree with him that "we should neither use the Julian dates of the Guru period in the Gregorian calendar, nor convert the Julian dates into Gregorian and then use them. The original dates are in either lunar dates or the solar dates of the Bikrami calendar and in some instances of the Hijri calendar. The Julian calendar was unknown in Punjab at that time. We should celebrate the Gurpurbs on the original solar dates."

He gave precedence to original solar date over the Lunar and English dates.

Quote
So how does the Purewal's calender set the date to January 5.
That where

I am still learning his formulas. As with any calendar it is time consuming and requires dedication. I will try to post something soon how he calculated January 5th from 23 Poh 1723 BK.

Quote

"we should neither use the Julian dates of the Guru period in the Gregorian calendar, nor convert the Julian dates into Gregorian and then use them. The original dates are in either lunar dates or the solar dates of the Bikrami calendar and in some instances of the Hijri calendar. The Julian calendar was unknown in Punjab at that time. We should celebrate the Gurpurbs on the original solar dates."

The last line in the above quote is saying that we should celebrate the Gurpurab dates on the original solar dates. My question is why should we do so and why should we not continue celebrating the Gurpurabs as we have been doing for 500 years? Many questions are being raised about the accuracy of this new calender. I used to support it when I did not know about it but I am saying this with full honesty that I have never felt the spiritual vibrations on the Gurpurabs of this new calender. Kattak Puranmashi for Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee and Poh Sudi Saptami for Siri Guru Gobind Singh jee is what feels right and definitely on that day special spiritual vibrations are in the air.

Purewal is saying that we should not use Julian or Gregorian calender to set dates but since the Purewal calender has fixed the dates in the Gregorian calender, if the historical date is different from the date we celebrate the Gurpurab, then it causes too much confusion. We all hear that Gurpurab of Siri Guru Gobind Singh jee was on December 22, 1666 but today the date it's celebrated is on January 5. The date per the Gregorian calender is January 2, 1667 but even this date does not match with the Purewal date of January 5. The problem is that Purewal wants to keep the 23 Poh date but this date is falling neither on Dec 22 nor on Jan 2 and is falling on January 5 which is NOT the Gurpurab date. Poh Sudi Saptami is what we should stick to.

Purewal's calender is erroneous if we are harsh but even if we say it nicely, it's still confusing for sure. It has caused a severe division in the Panth. I really hope the Bikrami calender comes back and even if it does not come back, we are thinking seriously of celebrating Gurpurabs as per the Bikrami calender starting next year.

Kulbir Singh

Quote
The last line in the above quote is saying that we should celebrate the Gurpurab dates on the original solar dates. My question is why should we do so and why should we not continue celebrating the Gurpurabs as we have been doing for 500 years? Many questions are being raised about the accuracy of this new calender. I used to support it when I did not know about it but I am saying this with full honesty that I have never felt the spiritual vibrations on the Gurpurabs of this new calender. Kattak Puranmashi for Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee and Poh Sudi Saptami for Siri Guru Gobind Singh jee is what feels right and definitely on that day special spiritual vibrations are in the air.

Bhai Sahib Jio, what's wrong with using solar dates? Aren't we using solar based calender (Gregorian) every day in our life? Our Amritvela early in the morning is according to solar date, is it less spiritual?

Secondly, are we discussing here which calender is more spiritual than other? If calender increases ones spirituality then Guru Sahib must have instructed us at the time of Amrit Sanchaar and this should be part of our Rehat/Kurehat.

Ones spirituality doesn't match others. This keet Daas is Balhaar to you if your spirituality increases with Bikrami dates. Who knows someone else's may increases with Solar dates. This shouldn't be point of contention for calender stigma. Issue is Panth decided something through a process and if any change needed that should also be through a process not basis of personal opinions or politics.

Quote

"Purewal is saying that we should not use Julian or Gregorian calender to set dates but since the Purewal calender has fixed the dates in the Gregorian calender, if the historical date is different from the date we celebrate the Gurpurab, then it causes too much confusion. We all hear that Gurpurab of Siri Guru Gobind Singh jee was on December 22, 1666 but today the date it's celebrated is on January 5. The date per the Gregorian calender is January 2, 1667 but even this date does not match with the Purewal date of January 5. "]

There is a reason behind that when Purewal says that, reason is"Because of the change over from Julian to Gregorian
calendar the beginning of the years of other eras started occurring 10 or 11 days later in relation to the Common Era after the change. Most Indian historians have been converting dates using change over in 1752 CE while others use change over in 1582 CE. So the dates given by two historians for the same event (for the period 5 Oct 1582 CE (Julian) to 2 September 1752 CE (Julian) may differ by 10 or 11 days if one chooses the change over in 1582 CE and the other 1752 CE."

Quote

"The problem is that Purewal wants to keep the 23 Poh date but this date is falling neither on Dec 22 nor on Jan 2 and is falling on January 5 which is NOT the Gurpurab date. Poh Sudi Saptami is what we should stick to."

For the reason given above it is safe to stick with solar date i.e. 23 Poh for Sri Dasmesh Jee. If we should stick to sudi vadi then there is no point of new calender to begin with. Since you are converting the date by adding 11 to Dec 22 but Bhai sahib jio you are missing the time-base here. Your converted date of Jan 2nd is true if you are applying on the day of 23 DEC 1666 Julian, not now. Remember that his time base is 1999 not 1666.

Quote

Purewal's calender is erroneous if we are harsh but even if we say it nicely, it's still confusing for sure. It has caused a severe division in the Panth. I really hope the Bikrami calender comes back and even if it does not come back, we are thinking seriously of celebrating Gurpurabs as per the Bikrami calender starting next year.

Even Bikrami calender caused division for Poh Sudi Saptami in 2000CE when Takhat Sri Harmandir Patna Sahib celebrated the Gupurab on 13th of Jan 2000 but at the same time in Punjab it was celebrated on 14th of January. Even though both were using the Bikrami calender. There always be divisions like that depending upon which Bikrami calender you use.

But Guru Sahib are Kirpallu and Dyallu HE will unite his Khalsa Panth on 350th Parkaash in January 5th, 2017 when 23 Poh and Poh Sudi Saptami comes on same day.

Still Daas respect your opinion. Regardless of this difference in opinion now, our Pyaar Satkeer for Gursikhs won't lesson in fact it will more solidify.

Quote

Still Daas respect your opinion. Regardless of this difference in opinion now, our Pyaar Satkeer for Gursikhs won't lesson in fact it will more solidify.

Vaheguru! Pyaar Satkaar for Gursikhs can't be affected because of such differences of opinion as this one. This Daas too has no reduction of Pyaar Satkaar for you because of this difference of opinion. We as Gursikhs should be able to carry on constructive Vichaar, without any problem.

Quote

For the reason given above it is safe to stick with solar date i.e. 23 Poh for Sri Dasmesh Jee. If we should stick to sudi vadi then there is no point of new calender to begin with. Since you are converting the date by adding 11 to Dec 22 but Bhai sahib jio you are missing the time-base here. Your converted date of Jan 2nd is true if you are applying on the day of 23 DEC 1666 Julian, not now. Remember that his time base is 1999 not 1666.

This is where a major flaw lies in the dates supplied by Purewal. He has taken 23 Poh of Bikrami Calender as of 1666 and and then again taken 23 Poh of Bikrami Calender as of 1999. No wonder his dates are not matching any calender i.e. Bikrami, Julian and Gregorian. As you can see that these dates are as of 1999 and therefore these dates are valid only for that year or whenever again such year comes when all is equal to 1999. This is the reason that this time, 23 Poh of Bikrami falls on January 7 while Poh Sudi Saptami of Bikrami is Dec 28th. The January 5 date given by Purewal is totally wrong for this year because this date is for 1999 and not for 2014 year.

I can't believe that our respected scholars accepted such a flawed calender as Purewal's calender The dates are as of 1999. How can they be valid in 2014?

Quote

Bhai Sahib Jio, what's wrong with using solar dates? Aren't we using solar based calender (Gregorian) every day in our life? Our Amritvela early in the morning is according to solar date, is it less spiritual?

Nothing wrong with solar dates, as long as these dates had been accurate but Purewal's dates are not accurate because he has fixed all dates as of 1999 and not as of original historical dates. I am now getting increasingly embarrassed at myself for accepting the dates of Purewal without doing research back when it was implemented. He totally made a fool of us by giving us this flawed calender with inaccurate dates. Why did we so meekly accept this calender, is beyond me.

The spiritual effect of such date when Guru Sahib took Avtaar cannot be denied but such day should be accurate, whether it's solar or Bikrami is a separate issue. Purewal's calender is totally flawed because the dates are based on 1999 and not on historical actual dates.

Quote

Most Indian historians have been converting dates using change over in 1752 CE while others use change over in 1582 CE. So the dates given by two historians for the same event (for the period 5 Oct 1582 CE (Julian) to 2 September 1752 CE (Julian) may differ by 10 or 11 days if one chooses the change over in 1582 CE and the other 1752 CE."

Indians have to use the 1752 date of conversion from Julian to Gregorian because this is when the British empire and it's colonies including India adopted this calender.

Quote

This shouldn't be point of contention for calender stigma. Issue is Panth decided something through a process and if any change needed that should also be through a process not basis of personal opinions or politics.

Bhai Sahib jee, which Panth decided on the Purewal calender and when did whole of Panth agree to it? Two Takhats and most traditional Jathebandis did not accept it. SGPC or it's Executive is not Panth. SGPC's decisions, especially in the modern era when Kaladhaari Gurmukhs are totally missing from any decision making, don't constitute Panth's decisions.

Bhai Sahib jee, we need to do Vichaar as to what was the pressing need to adopt a new calender when the old calender had been working just fine? The issue is not solar or Bikrami but the issue is accuracy and Purewal's calender does not give us accurate Gurpurab dates; therefore it should be rejected for sure. Naturally for modern dates, we are using the current Gregorian calender to record events and for old dates we have been using the Bikrami calender. This arrangement has been working fine and there is no justification to switch to Purewal's calender at this time.

Kulbir Singh

Jasjit singh ji

Please watch the videos posted above of Col Nishan .It gives background of implementation of purewal calendar.
He gave the presentation in purewal's backyard(Purewal lives in Edmonton) on a public show. Let him come forward
and answer Nishan's exposure of dates given in his calendar being totally wrong.

Jasjit singh jio

When we say Guru Gobind singh ji was born on poh sudi satmi, it means his birhtday date has to be per lunar calendar.
So it is connected with phases of moon.

When we say Guru Nanak dev ji was born on kartik pooranmashi, his birthday date has to be per lunar calendar.

Bhai Gurdas ji writes

ਕਾਰਤਕ ਮਾਸ ਰੁਤਿ ਸਰਦ ਪੂਰਨਮਾਸੀ ਆਠ ਜਾਮ ਸਾਠਿ ਘਰੀ ਆਜੁ ਤੇਰੀ ਬਾਰੀ ਹੈ ।
Kaaratak Maas Routi Sarad Pooranamaasee , Aatth Jaam Saatthi Gharee Aaju Tayree Baaree Hai ।
कारतक मास रुति सरद पूरनमासी आठ जाम साठि घरी आजु तेरी बारी है ।
It is the month of Karlik, and winter season with full moon night. In these eight watches, here is your chance to meet your beloved at any time. (Guru Nanak Dev Ji was born on this day).
1 ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰਦਾਸ ਜੀ : ਕਬਿੱਤ ੩੪੫ ਪੰ. ੧

You write that in 2017 Guru Gobind singh ji's birthday per lunar calendar will fall on Jan 5. It may happen because of date of amawas in month of poh.It was on Jan 11, most probably in 2012 ,per lunar calendar. Purewal or anyone should not prefix it permanently . It was a monumental mistake on purewal's part.

A sikh should tread path of truth.Purewal should admit shortcomings of his adventure and help sikh panth in finding a just solution.

Kulbir singh ji wrote

This is where a major flaw lies in the dates supplied by Purewal. He has taken 23 Poh of Bikrami Calender as of 1666 and and then again taken 23 Poh of Bikrami Calender as of 1999. No wonder his dates are not matching any calender i.e. Bikrami, Julian and Gregorian. As you can see that these dates are as of 1999 and therefore these dates are valid only for that year or whenever again such year comes when all is equal to 1999. This is the reason that this time, 23 Poh of Bikrami falls on January 7 while Poh Sudi Saptami of Bikrami is Dec 28th. The January 5 date given by Purewal is totally wrong for this year because this date is for 1999 and not for 2014 year.

I can't believe that our respected scholars accepted such a flawed calender as Purewal's calender The dates are as of 1999. How can they be valid in 2014?

=========================================================================================================

Bhai sahib

You have cracked the code now. As is being repeated Purewal calendar base year is 1999. He has not taken sikh history before 1999 into account.He applied no conversion correction factor also.He admitted it in meeting to Col nishan.

In so called committee there was no person with scientific knowledge except Nishan>he brought this out but was overruled by powerful lobby of IOSS chandigarh headed by Kahrak singh.