Kartarpuri Beerh

Reading the link here http://www.globalsikhstudies.net/pdf/kartbir1.pdf it seems that quite a number of in-corrections crept-in in the process of compilation/scribing and were later rectified. I wonder how this falls in line with our view that Guru-Kartar is abhull. Please share your views.

Daas read this book sometime ago.

As the writers trying to prove the authenticity of Kartarpuri Bir have used the logic that only the original could have blank pages, only the original could have two handwritings one of Guru sahib and other of Bhai Gurdas Ji etc, One question daas strugled to answer was if someone wants to project something as original why can that person not copy the original in its exact form including all the things that might have happened with the original... its all about intentions... Daas is not trying to prove if the bir is original or not but just a humble question to clear this doubt

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As the writers trying to prove the authenticity of Kartarpuri Bir have used the logic that only the original could have blank pages,

People who argue that presence of blank angs in the Kartarpur Bir is the biggest proof that it's the original Bir, are mistaken in their analysis. It just does not make sense to have blank angs because the Bir is binded only after it has been completed. How could the original Bir of Guru Sahib contain blank angs? Having blank angs would have made it so badly susceptible to doctoring, as anti-Gurmat elements could enter Kachi Baani in the blank angs.

The Perfect Master - Siri Guru Arjun Dev jee - who so diligently protected the authenticity of Gurbani and whose one of the reason for compiling this Bir was to ensure that Gurbani does not get mixed up with fake Baani, could have never committed the mistake of leaving blank Angs in the Aad Bir. This is one of the solid proofs that the Kartarpuri Bir that they are showing to the world now a days, is not the Aad Bir. Sure, as per our history, at one time the Dhir Malis were in possession of the Aad Bir and this remained a fact even till the times of Maharaja Ranjit Singh but the current day Bir is not the original one.

Kulbir Singh

While certain aspects strengthen the case in the favour of the beerh, certain other aspects trouble the mind with doubt and bring in weakness. Directions like 'Shuddh Kiche' and marking some bani as 'Shuddh' are the favourable points. But mention of praana Sangli baani brings in great doubt. It is said that the heading of Prana Sangli is there in persian script but the composition was not written down because the approval for it being an authentic baani was not received (meaning that Pancham Patshah conveyed this so). Hence the matter was left there.

Let alone Guru Arjan dev being a Spiritual personality, even if he was a ordinary successor to some religious dera, he was the fifth in line, and Bhai Gurdass was born and brough up in Sikh atmosphere, would'nt they already know the truth about Prana Sangli?

One explanation can be that someone from Sri Lanka came to visit Guru Sahib at that time and proffered the baani, and it was later found out to be inauthentic on close scrutiny. I don't know. I am confused.

As far as empty pages are concerned, if I were to do a compilation of some material into a final shape of a book, I would logically keep the chapters separate and then when individual chapters were proper, I would get them re-written omitting any errors and produce a final copy. I referring less to the efficacy of methodology and more to the feeling of having achieved an error free, superior product. You know? when we are doing something creative we want it to be perfect right?

Still, there are certain strong points in favour, therefore I am confused.
Plus I am surprised why is nothing said about RaagMaala?

There is a Beer written by a Sikh from the time of Guru Arjan Dev jee in private possesion in Mohali. At the last ang at the back, the writer of the beer has written that it was coppied from Aad Beer(the original one-of which the first parkash was done at darbar sahib) I cant recall but I think the Singh also told me that Guru Sahib also signed on it.

Chota veer

Piyasi Chatrik Jee,
Was Raagmala found in that Bir?
And could the authenticity of the Bir be proven somehow? There are too many Birs that have been claimed to be written by different people without any evidence.
If you could get a picture of the Bir that would be great.

The author of the book has never seen the beer himself.He was a office babu doing eight to
five duty all his life. He is also responsible for creating many misunderstandings about sikh
scriptures and sikh literature after retirement.

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Was Raagmala found in that Bir?
And could the authenticity of the Bir be proven somehow? There are too many Birs that have been claimed to be written by different people without any evidence.
If you could get a picture of the Bir that would be great.

TSIngh Jeeo,

Its a well known fact through our history some anti panthic elements have created their own birs to cause doubts about Gurgaddi/sachi Bani. Bansvalinama mentions how Prithi Chand composed his own granth with his own writings and in the end ( bhog) included writings of Pehli Paatshah. Eventually there was a circulation of numerous granths which included both kachi bani of Pritihi Chand and sachi bani of Sri Guru JI. This lead to confusions amongst many followers of Sri Guru JI. Prithi Chand was uspet that he did not receieve Gurgaddi so he resorted to such tactics as an attempt to gain followers. This is one of the reasons why Sri Guru Ji had Bhai Gurdas Ji compose aad granth which was free from such writings. Sri Guru Ji created a number system and sealed the Granth so nobody could fabricate kachi bani.

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Tsingh
Was Raagmala found in that Bir?
And could the authenticity of the Bir be proven somehow? There are too many Birs that have been claimed to be written by different people without any evidence.

Singhs know the beer is from Guru Arjan dev jees time because at the end of the beer, the GurSikh has indicated his name, his source of copying the beer(the Aad beer) and the year he did so.
No, it doesn't contain ragmala. Bani of 9th SatGuru has been added later on.

Chota veer

I read somewhere that there is a Bir in Patiala that is said to be the exact copy of the original Aad Bir and it is different than the one which is currently displayed as the Aad Bir by the Dhir Malias. Maybe the Dhir Malias still have the original, but they are keeping it secret. Where else could the Bir have gone?

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People who argue that presence of blank angs in the Kartarpur Bir is the biggest proof that it's the original Bir, are mistaken in their analysis. It just does not make sense to have blank angs because the Bir is binded only after it has been completed. How could the original Bir of Guru Sahib contain blank angs? Having blank angs would have made it so badly susceptible to doctoring, as anti-Gurmat elements could enter Kachi Baani in the blank angs.

How could the blank Angs not be in the Birh Sahib? A copy, on the other hand, would not have any. Taking blank spaces out after completion would have meant breaking the continuity of Ang numbers. Besides, Guru Sahib would not have given it to just anybody to add anything in it. He took great care of it. The first thing the 6th Guru did during Amritsar battle was secure the Birh Sahib. Structure system of Gurbani would have prevented anybody from entering kachi bani. The only place for anybody to add anything was at the end. Puratan scholars including Kahan Singh Nabha held that the current Birh Sahib is the original one. It was only after G.B. Singh’s controversial book that raised the doubts which were refuted by Dr. Jodh Singh.

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The Perfect Master - Siri Guru Arjun Dev jee - who so diligently protected the authenticity of Gurbani and whose one of the reason for compiling this Bir was to ensure that Gurbani does not get mixed up with fake Baani, could have never committed the mistake of leaving blank Angs in the Aad Bir.

How is leaving Angs a mistake? He was collecting Gurbani from multiple sources and verifying the authenticity as it came to him while the work of scribing continued on. In the anticipation of receiving Gurbani, blank spaces were left. A copy would not have any blank spaces.

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Sure, as per our history, at one time the Dhir Malis were in possession of the Aad Bir and this remained a fact even till the times of Maharaja Ranjit Singh but the current day Bir is not the original one.

Then what happened to the original one? Some anti-Raag Maala scholars are asserting that the original Birh Sahib was burnt when Thamm Sahib was set on fire in 18th century and a new Birh was installed but they present no evidence to support such a claim. To assert that the original Birh Sahib would have no “hartaal” and blank spaces mean inadvertently supporting Pashaura Singh’s flimsy argument that Guru Sahib worked on many drafts until scribing a final clean copy.

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Let alone Guru Arjan dev being a Spiritual personality, even if he was a ordinary successor to some religious dera, he was the fifth in line, and Bhai Gurdass was born and brough up in Sikh atmosphere, would'nt they already know the truth about Prana Sangli?

Guru Sahib sent a Sikh to procure Pran Sangali and upon reviewing its copy, Guru Sahib declared it unauthentic. If one claims that why didn’t Guru Sahib use His magical powers to know about Pran Sangali then a claim can also be made that why didn’t He use the same powers to know that the Bani has been written error free rather than reviewing it and writing “Shudh” or “Shudh Keechay”? Guru Sahib prohibits the use of powers in householder life and He practiced it before preaching it.

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The author of the book has never seen the beer himself.He was a office babu doing eight to
five duty all his life. He is also responsible for creating many misunderstandings about sikh
scriptures and sikh literature after retirement.

Your post reminds me the Kabit of Bhai Gurdas Ji.

ਜੈਸੇ ਨੈਨ ਬੈਨ ਪੰਖ ਸੁੰਦਰ ਸ੍ਰਬੰਗ ਮੋਰ ਤਾਕੇ ਪਗ ਓਰ ਦੇਖਿ ਦੋਖ ਨ ਬੀਚਾਰੀਐ ॥
ਸੰਦਲ ਸੁਗੰਧ ਅਤਿ ਕੋਮਲ ਕਮਲ ਜੈਸੇ ਕੰਟਕਿ ਬਿਲੋਕ ਨ ਅਉਗਨ ਉਰਧਾਰੀਐ ॥
ਜੈਸੇ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਫਲ ਮਿਸਟਿ ਗੁਨਾਦਿ ਸ੍ਵਾਦ ਬੀਜ ਕਰਵਾਈ ਕੈ ਬੁਰਾਈ ਨ ਸਮਾਰੀਐ ॥
ਤੈਸੇ ਗੁਰ ਗਿਆਨ ਦਾਨ ਸਬਹੁ ਸੈ ਮਾਗਿ ਲੀਜੈ ਬੰਦਨਾ ਸਕਲ ਭੂਤ ਨਿੰਦਾ ਨ ਤਕਾਰੀਐ ॥399॥

Guru Rakha

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How could the blank Angs not be in the Birh Sahib? A copy, on the other hand, would not have any. Taking blank spaces out after completion would have meant breaking the continuity of Ang numbers.

There are said to be 974 Patraas in the Kartarpuri Bir. Did Guru Sahib first thought that the total Patraas would be 974 (or whatever the number of Patraas there are in the Kartarpuri Bir), and then find out that the Baani is much less than that? If we are to agree with this then, we would have to accept that Guru Sahib is Bhulanhaar (Vaheguru Muaaf Kare, such a thought too is a sin). How could Guru Sahib's estimate of total Angs to be covered by Baani, be so wrong? The reality is that Guru Sahib did not bind the Bir and then start writing Baani. Guru Sahib first wrote Angs and then got the Bir binded. Our history too states that when all Angs were ready, then Guru Sahib asked one of His Sikhs - Bhai Bannno - to have the Bir binded. That Sikh in the process got the whole of Bir copied and that copy is today called Banno wali Bir.

The thing that is beyond understanding is that why would Guru Sahib bind the original Bir with certain amount of blank Angs and then start writing Baani. The logical way (even today) is that first Angs are written and then binded into Bir.

How could Guru Sahib have installed the Kartarpur Bir at Siri Darbar Sahib when it contains dozens of blank pannas at stretch. Total number of blank angs are hundreds. How did the Paathis manage to do Paath in Sangat, from such Bir? Is such Bir that has multiple blank angs, installable?

Why would Guru Sahib first write the Shabad of Mirabai and then delete it with Hartaal? Did Guru Sahib not know first that this Shabad is not Baani? If you say that Bhai Gurdaas jee may have written it, then too the question is that did Brahmgyani Bhai Gurdaas jee not know that Mirabai's Shabad is not Gurbani? Bhai Gurdaas jee must have known Mirabai had never met Guru Sahib and thus could not have uttered Gurbani.

There are some instances whereby, a certain Baani is listed as being on certain Ang in the Tatkara but in actuality it's not on that Ang. Such mistakes are not there even in some other Birs. How could they have been in the original Aad Bir?

The fact of the matter is that this Bir is not the Aad Bir by any standard. It is an old Bir but not the Aad Bir. As for why the Angs are blank in there, this is something that scholars today need to ascertain.

Most of your arguments are same as that of Sardar Daljit Singh, in favour of the Kartarpuri Bir being the Aad Bir. Sardar Daljit Singh's intentions were not wrong but the base of his strong support of the Kartarpuri Bir was that the Sikhs have long been claiming that they have the original Bir of the Satguru and as such they have to accept some Bir as the original. We should leave out the Raagmala issue here. Some Sikhs support the Kartarpuri Bir as Aad Bir just because they think this Bir helps prove that Raagmala is Baani. But we should leave out this issue and worry about many other negative implications if we blindly accept this Bir as the Aad Bir.

Kulbir Singh

How does one write Gurbani on an already binded bir? The beginning akhar of each pangti is extremely close to the edge and it would be impossible to write so close to the edge. History tells us Gurbani was written on seperate angs and then binded together.

Daljit singh has not seen the beerh himself.How can he write on something that he has not studied.
The fact is that there are so many beers available at Kartarpur and original beer is not among those.

Site globalsikhstudies writes so many things without any basis.He has misled sikhs about Dasam Granth
sahib by touting writings of same daljit Singh.

There is a book by Jodh singh " Aad beer bare" by Prof Sahib singh. One should read that.

I have heard that Giani Gurdit Singh Jee was going to write his third installment on "Ithihas Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee" about the KartarPuri bir. He had gathered so much proof proving that Bir is not the original Kartarpuri Bir. But he did Akal Chalana before he could give the finishing touch to that book. Perhaps some Gurmukh can go to Giani Jee's son and attempt at publishing that book if possible. This book would be a ground shaking book like his previous two books on the Ithihas on Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee. The 1st one was Bhagat Bani Bhaag and the 2nd was about Mundavani.

RSingh jeeo, please share more on this 3rd book by Giani Gurdit Singh ji. What was the title of the book and what else did Giani ji intend to cover since they had already provided lots of information regarding puratan saroops in their previous 2 books. Did Giani ji go to see the Kartarpuri Bir and did they take any pictures?

It is unfortunate that 2 mahaan scholars in bhai Joginder Singh ji Talwara and Giani Gurdit Singh ji have left this kharam bhoomi since they were very knowledgeable about puratan saroops and had the ability and jeevan to write great pustaks.

Do you have the contact details Giani ji's son (e-mail), maybe we could write to Giani ji's son to publish this book in the form that it is in. It would be very interesting to read the material that Giani ji had written even if the pustak was incomplete.

Regarding the Kartarpuri Bir I agree that it is unlikely to be the original Bir because of the empty angs. I can't imagine such a Bir being parkashed at sri Darbar Sahib. Also bhai Kahn Singh ji Nabha description of the Bir differs to bhai Jodh Singh ji's. Bhai Kahn Singh ji wrote that the Bir contained the line:

"Guru Babe de patre sare 974" and ang 973 contained Mundavni whilst the following ang was empty. Also bhai Kahn Singh ji states that the bir contains other banis such as ratanmama, rah mukam ki sakhi e.t.c. However bhai Jodh Singh ji's description is different, no addition banis just Ragmala and no mention of "Guru Babe de patre sare 974."

It is fruitless arguing over this Bir because unfortunately it is in the hands of Sodhi Parwar who have kept it for themselves and refuse to give it back to the Panth. Maybe we should spend more effort on locating the Damdami Bir which is the Saroop that was given Guruship.

Onkar Singh

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Puratan scholars including Kahan Singh Nabha held that the current Birh Sahib is the original one.

Bhai Bijla Singh jIo,

Either I am reading this wrong or your facts are not straight about Bhai Kahan Singh Nabha and Kartarpuri Beerh. In fact Bhai Kahan Singh Nabha never considered Beerh as authentic one. Please read following which will give the glimpse of Bhai Kahan Singh Nabha's findings on said Beerh.







Above findings of Bhai Kahan Singh Nabha leaves no doubt that Kartarpuri Beerh is not authentic beerh, hence it is wastage of time to try to make it otherwise.

With Regards,
Jasjit Singh

Gupt1 Jee, I think the contact info for Giani Jee's son can be found on their site dedicated to Giani Gurdit Singh Jee. I have heard that before Giani Jee passed away this was going to be his last work that he was working on. He had gathered a lot of proofs proving that the current Kartarpuri Bir is not the original. It contains hundreds of spelling mistakes. This books was requiring editing and finishing touches. It would be a wise thing for Gurmukhs to contact Giani Jee's son and see if they can do anything and have this book published or if it required some work then see what can be done. Yes, Giani Jee and Talwala Jee were such great scholars. These men were real Gurmukhs. Now we hardly have anyone left in the Panth at their level.

Bhai Kulbir Singh Ji, you raise good points. More research needs to be done on Birh Sahib while keeping the Raag Maala issue out. Unfortunately, two have become inseparable. A copy of the Birh Sahib wouldn’t have any spaces. It makes sense to me that Guru Sahib numbered the Angs first and wrote Bani as it came to Him. This was done to keep the Bani organized and structured. He kept spaces for each Raag and added Bani in appropriate places. It would have been poor planning to underestimate the amount of Gurbani because in that, it would’ve meant restarting the work to add more Angs and renumber them if more Bani was procured. There were additional blank Angs in the Birh Sahib which came under binding. Also, if what Kartar Singh Dakha said is true then it means at the end of the Birh Sahib there were blank Angs. It was easy to remove Angs from the end but not from the middle which is why numbered Angs were kept by Guru Sahib to keep continuity of Ang numbers. Bhai Gurdas Ji being a brahmgyani does not make him an Omniscient being. He could have copied the Shabad from Gurbani pothis of Sahansar Raam which Guru Sahib later removed. Final authority was with Guru Sahib not with Bhai Sahib. What scholars need to ascertain is that if the Shabad was written with the same ink. I do agree with you that any mistakes in the Birh Sahib need to be investigated. The problem is that there is not enough material from historical granths to tell us how the Aad Birh Sahib was compiled and these days its authenticity is being determined with much partiality.

Bhai Jasjit Singh Ji, I am familiar with the letter and I have read it again but nowhere does it state that the Birh Sahib is not authentic. Inclusion of additional compositions at the end does not make the Birh Sahib unauthentic. You are confusing between the two. Bhai Kahan Singh simply states that he observed additional compositions which are not Gurbani but he never states that the Birh Sahib itself is not authentic. He held the belief that the Birh Sahib is authentic and the argument he forwards in this favor is the blank Ang between the total count and Raag Maala. This means he had no problem with the authenticity of the Birh Sahib. Challenging the authenticity of the Birh Sahib started in recent times. It was G.B. Singh, Harnam Das and then Mcleod. As far as I know, scholars opposed to Raag Maala held that Raag Maala and other compositions were added later but they did not say anything about authenticity of the Birh Sahib. I could be wrong.

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Daljit singh has not seen the beerh himself.How can he write on something that he has not studied.

What evidence do you have to support your claim? Daljeet Singh and Jagjit Singh contributed a lot in explaining uniqueness and distinctiveness of Sikhi. They successfully refuted Mcleod. Their false opinion on Dasam Granth does not make their contribution any less nor does it make their written books wrong. You are not a “duty babu” anymore either. You think you can do better? Guru Rakha

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Bhai Jasjit Singh Ji, I am familiar with the letter and I have read it again but nowhere does it state that the Birh Sahib is not authentic. Inclusion of additional compositions at the end does not make the Birh Sahib unauthentic. You are confusing between the two. Bhai Kahan Singh simply states that he observed additional compositions which are not Gurbani but he never states that the Birh Sahib itself is not authentic. He held the belief that the Birh Sahib is authentic and the argument he forwards in this favor is the blank Ang between the total count and Raag Maala. This means he had no problem with the authenticity of the Birh Sahib.

Bhai Bijla Singh Jio,

Can you forward any writing of Bhai Kahan Singh where he says as you assumed that Beerh before raagmala is considered to be authentic by him? Of course the topic of the above letter was raagmala and he wrote from this angle.

With Regards,
Jasjit Singh

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BijlaSIngh
It makes sense to me that Guru Sahib numbered the Angs first and wrote Bani as it came to Him. This was done to keep the Bani organized and structured. He kept spaces for each Raag and added Bani in appropriate places.

Bijla SIngh Jeeo,

Perhaps I am misunderstanding your statement. Are you claiming Sri GUru Ji scribed the Kartarpur Beerh Sahib instead of BHai GUrdas JI. Or are you claiming BHai Gurdas Ji scribed the bani as Pancham PaathShah recited Dhur Ki Bani?

Many panthic scholars such as Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh Ji have stated the authentic pothis sahibs were collected and compliled into one granth under the direction of Sri Guru JI? We know through history that Bhai Gurdas Ji was entrusted with this task, and we know through BHai Gurdas Jis writings that exisitng Gurbani pothis were in existence from the time of Pehli Paatshah.

How can one scribe bani on blank pages especially if the beerh contains over a thousand angs. It would be very difiicult to scribe on an already binded granth. THe more pracitcal and easy method would be to write on seperate angs and then compile them together.

When the Torah was written it was written on seperate scrolls for practical reasons. When the Quaran was written it was written on seperate leaves for practical reasons, because If one were to write on an already binded granth then the black ink would soak through the surrounding angs. The ink in those days is not the same type of ink you and I use with our pens. When writing with this ink one must first write and then let the ink dry before binding. So the question then arises why does one have a granth with blank pages in the end? One cannot write in these pages without allowing ink to sink through the proceeding pages.

Bhai Sahib Ji, Bhai Kahan Singh Nabha in his own letter doesn’t reject authenticity of the Birh Sahib. His proof of its authenticity is that there is a blank Ang between the total count and Raag Maala. In Gurmat Maartand Part 1 page 411, he states that the Kartarpuri Birh that was scribed by Bhai Gurdas Ji is now in Kartarpur. He also states that the Shabad of Mira Bai was written by Bhai Gurdas Ji but later hartaaled by Guru Sahib. He also mentions blank Angs and spaces but I will leave that to your own reading. If you need exact quotes, let me know and I will try to find some time to write it. Not too long ago, I came to know that Pandit Kartar Singh Dakha too considered the Birh Sahib authentic but I am still looking into it. I know Shamsher Singh Ashok considered it authentic and stated that last blank Ang was used by some unknown Sikh to later include Raag Maala.

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Perhaps I am misunderstanding your statement. Are you claiming Sri GUru Ji scribed the Kartarpur Beerh Sahib instead of BHai GUrdas JI. Or are you claiming BHai Gurdas Ji scribed the bani as Pancham PaathShah recited Dhur Ki Bani?

What I meant was that Bani was scribed (by Bhai Gurdas Ji) as it was procured. Although Guru Shaib had Gurbani pothis with Him but it does not mean that other pothis from Sikhs were not procured. Sahansar Ram had Gurbani pothis which were scribed under the supervision of Guru Amardas Ji. Many Sikhs wrote Bani and kept it with them. Guru Sahib sent Sikhs to far off places to bring Gurbani and also asked many Sikhs to bring the Bani they had in their possession. I am not stating blank Angs were bounded first. In fact, no scholar has ever mentioned it. Guru Rakha

What evidence do you have to support your claim? Daljeet Singh and Jagjit Singh contributed a lot in explaining uniqueness and distinctiveness of Sikhi. They successfully refuted Mcleod. Their false opinion on Dasam Granth does not make their contribution any less nor does it make their written books wrong. You are not a “duty babu” anymore either. You think you can do better? Guru Rakh

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Their lives of daftari babus till retirement are evidence enough. Did Daljit Singh calim that he saw the beer himself? If so please show us.His article
is based on Bhai ( Not doctor) Jodh Singh's book.

All Daljit Singh and Jagjit Singh did was to rope in a few disgruntled elements like Gurtej Singh and missionaries like Harbhajan Singh to attack traditional sikhi. Their style of sikhi refutes essence of Guru sahib's teachings foremost among those is Naam Simran. If you know anyother unique contribution of them please highlight those here.

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Bhai Sahib Ji, Bhai Kahan Singh Nabha in his own letter doesn’t reject authenticity of the Birh Sahib. His proof of its authenticity is that there is a blank Ang between the total count and Raag Maala. In Gurmat Maartand Part 1 page 411, he states that the Kartarpuri Birh that was scribed by Bhai Gurdas Ji is now in Kartarpur. He also states that the Shabad of Mira Bai was written by Bhai Gurdas Ji but later hartaaled by Guru Sahib.

Bhai Bijla Singh jio, Daas would appreciate if you could post the images of page you are talking about. Coming back to above letter I assume you agree with Bhai Kahan Singh what he stated in this letter i.e raagmala is not part of this beerh, if so then what is the point of proving the authenticity of this Beerh?

Regards,
Jasjit Singh

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Their lives of daftari babus till retirement are evidence enough. Did Daljit Singh calim that he saw the beer himself? If so please show us.His article is based on Bhai ( Not doctor) Jodh Singh's book.

Try to let go off your childish dheeth puna and think logically. I am not the one making claims here. I am stating that his arguments in favor of Kartarpuri Birh are valid. If what he has written is the same as Jodh Singh then it doesn’t make him wrong. I am simply enquiring if you have any proof which would show that his book is not a result of independent research but entirely based on the facts found by Jodh Singh. You are committing negative proof fallacy by asking me to disprove your claim. The burden of proof in this case rests on you since you are making the claim. It is ridiculous to suggest that one who had a job could not have seen the Birh Sahib. You will have to provide quotes from their books to prove that they ridiculed SIkhi. You will have to read their book first. I won’t do your homework. Although I do not agree with everything they have written, but their successful refutations to Mcleod are good enough for me to give them respect. Daljit Singh’s Concept of Naam does not negate meditation of Gurmantar. It mentions no such thing. Again, since you are no longer a “daftari babu” why don’t you take on one of Mcleod’s protégé and refute them?

ਆਪਿ ਨ ਦੇਹਿ ਚੁਰੂ ਭਰਿ ਪਾਨੀ ॥ ਤਿਹ ਨਿੰਦਹਿ ਜਿਹ ਗੰਗਾ ਆਨੀ ॥2॥

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Coming back to above letter I assume you agree with Bhai Kahan Singh what he stated in this letter i.e raagmala is not part of this beerh, if so then what is the point of proving the authenticity of this Beerh?

Bhai Sahib, don’t spin the topic. You asked for proof that Bhai Kahan Singh Nabha believed in Kartarpuri Birh Sahib and it has been provided. I showed you his opinions and reasoning. What I think of his reasoning and my own belief about Raag Maala is a separate topic. I disagree with Bhai Sahib on Raag Maala but not on Kartarpuri Birh. You are again trying to mix them together. Although they are interrelated but a fine line can be drawn between them. The point I wanted to make was that anti-Raag Maala scholars in old times did not dispute authenticity of the Birh Sahib. Please let me know how to upload images to this forum. I would prefer tying verbatim.

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Bhai Sahib, don’t spin the topic. You asked for proof that Bhai Kahan Singh Nabha believed in Kartarpuri Birh Sahib and it has been provided. I showed you his opinions and reasoning. What I think of his reasoning and my own belief about Raag Maala is a separate topic. I disagree with Bhai Sahib on Raag Maala but not on Kartarpuri Birh. You are again trying to mix them together. Although they are interrelated but a fine line can be drawn between them. The point I wanted to make was that anti-Raag Maala scholars in old times did not dispute authenticity of the Birh Sahib. Please let me know how to upload images to this forum. I would prefer tying verbatim.

Daas have no idea what you mean by ‘spin the topic’ here. Are we playing gambling game here that we need to spin wheels? Certainly daas is not in this business I don't about you. Coming back to the topic, now you have mentioned that you disagree with Bhai Kahan Singh’s findings on raagmala and other additions which are after page 974 of Kartarpuri Beerh. By this logic you are pick and choosing what you like but not what the facts are for the Beerh. Where as I am interested to see what differently Bhai Kahn Singh have said for pages before 974 due to your statement that he consider the Beerh is original one (for which you haven’t provided his writings yet).

So far one fact is established that Bhai Kahan Singh refuted anything after page 974 of Kartarpuri Beerh, based on this fact Beerh can not be considered as authentic. Now unless you provide the his resources for pre 974 findings until then no use of going further into this discussion.

For posting image although admin can help you more thoroughly but this is how daas do it:
Click "inert image URL" button on the top bar of the editor then paste the link of the picture URL and click OK.

With Regards,
Jasjit Singh

BTW, since you have also brought in the name of Pandit Kartar Singh Dakha that he also considered this Beerh as original one, would you also include his findings. Don't worry no "spin the topic" here, will discuss one by one.

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By this logic you are pick and choosing what you like but not what the facts are for the Beerh.

Bhai Sahib, I did not mean anything in any negative way. You tried to switch the topic from Bhai Kahan Singh to my personal belief. It doesn’t make a difference to Kartarpuri Birh’s authenticity. Please explain to me how picking and choosing is wrong? Who doesn’t pick and choose? As long as one has valid reasons, it is not required to agree with one scholar on every single matter. Veechar and blind following are two different things. Do you agree with Bhai Kahan Singh that Gurmantar is Wahguru? If yes then why would you pick and choose? The point stands undisputed that Bhai Kahan Singh did not write anything against authenticity of the Birh Sahib and the letter you posted only speaks against Raag Maala and not the Birh Sahib itself. Bhai Kahan Singh believed that Raag Maala was included later (which I disagree with) but he states that the Birh that was scribed by Bhai Gurdas Ji is in Kartarpur.

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Where as I am interested to see what differently Bhai Kahn Singh have said for pages before 974 due to your statement that he consider the Beerh is original one (for which you haven’t provided his writings yet).

Bhai Sahib, it is not a requirement for me to provide any scan. In fact, you can verify the source on your own as well. Logically, I was required to provide the reference which I already have. Not providing the scan of the book doesn’t make me wrong.

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So far one fact is established that Bhai Kahan Singh refuted anything after page 974 of Kartarpuri Beerh, based on this fact Beerh can not be considered as authentic.

For you it is a fact but for me it is his opinion. In any case, his disbelief in Raag Maala in no way proves that the Birh Sahib in unauthentic. It is a faulty logic. Many anti-Raag Maala scholars believed that the Birh Sahib was authentic and Raag Maala was added later. By your logic all puratan Birhs that have spurious content and additional compositions in the end are all unauthentic meaning that the Gurbani in them is not authentic. What would you do with the Birhs that bear the signatures of the Gurus but have added compositions after them? All unauthentic by your logic. What about current printed saroops? Bhai Kahan Singh would surely reject Raag Maala on Ang 1430 but one would be irrational to state that based on this the entire saroop is unauthentic. As Bhai Kulbir Singh has stated that in order to ascertain the authenticity, scholars need to closely examine the Gurbani, its structure and added mistakes. There are many criteria which you are not considering.

Rejecting the contents after Ang 974 does not mean that the Birh Sahib altogether was rejected. You keep focusing on Raag Maala but have not provided any proof against the fact that the current Kartarpuri Birh was not scribed by Bhai Gurdas Ji.

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BTW, since you have also brought in the name of Pandit Kartar Singh Dakha that he also considered this Beerh as original one

I have already stated that I am still looking into it and have not found much evidence as of now because I recently came to know of it. I am not implying Pandit Ji or Bhai Kahan Singh believed in Raag Maala by believing in authenticity of the Birh Sahib. I hope you are not misunderstanding this point. Guru Rakha

Bhai Bijla Singh jio,

What Daas asked was simple write up of Bhai Kahan Singh for Kartaarpur Beerh. My point of discussion was only this subject Kartarpuri beerh and Bhai Kahan Singh Nabha if you read carefully. Since you are not providing anything concrete matter about this subject I am not interested in your long essay. Again if you have please provide Bhai Kahan Singh Nabha's write up for pre 974 pages of Kartarpuri Beerh.

With Regards,
Jasjit Singh

Bijla singh wrote


Try to let go off your childish dheeth puna and think logically. I am not the one making claims here. I am stating that his arguments in favor of Kartarpuri Birh are valid. If what he has written is the same as Jodh Singh then it doesn’t make him wrong. I am simply enquiring if you have any proof which would show that his book is not a result of independent research but entirely based on the facts found by Jodh Singh. You are committing negative proof fallacy by asking me to disprove your claim. The burden of proof in this case rests on you since you are making the claim. It is ridiculous to suggest that one who had a job could not have seen the Birh Sahib. You will have to provide quotes from their books to prove that they ridiculed SIkhi. You will have to read their book first. I won’t do your homework. Although I do not agree with everything they have written, but their successful refutations to Mcleod are good enough for me to give them respect. Daljit Singh’s Concept of Naam does not negate meditation of Gurmantar. It mentions no such thing. Again, since you are no longer a “daftari babu” why don’t you take on one of Mcleod’s protégé and refute them?
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I wish you learn some manners before you participate on a public forum. Daljit Singh has not claimed that he has seen the beer. I know Daljit Singh from my sources. It is you who is stating that he has seen the beer. Burden of proving that falls on you. Do not run away by using harsh language.

It seems You hardly know anything about Daljit singh and are making assumptions of your own.Daljit singh was ridiculing concept of Naam simran in his writings. Bhai ranjit Singh was akal takhat jathedar and this group was writing against him in their periodicals on regular basis even calling him Ranjit ghataura. No sikh with gurmat leanings will ridicule Bhai ranjit singh in such a low language.

What Gurumantra you are talking here. Daljit singh had not even taken Guramntra from panj piaras.