Kartarpuri Beerh July 19, 2012 06:23PM |
Re: Kartarpuri Beerh July 20, 2012 04:28AM |
Re: Kartarpuri Beerh July 20, 2012 06:55AM |
Quote
As the writers trying to prove the authenticity of Kartarpuri Bir have used the logic that only the original could have blank pages,
Re: Kartarpuri Beerh July 20, 2012 09:51AM |
Re: Kartarpuri Beerh July 22, 2012 08:19AM |
Re: Kartarpuri Beerh July 22, 2012 09:05AM |
Re: Kartarpuri Beerh July 22, 2012 01:29PM |
Re: Kartarpuri Beerh July 22, 2012 03:47PM |
Quote
Was Raagmala found in that Bir?
And could the authenticity of the Bir be proven somehow? There are too many Birs that have been claimed to be written by different people without any evidence.
If you could get a picture of the Bir that would be great.
Re: Kartarpuri Beerh July 22, 2012 11:57PM |
Singhs know the beer is from Guru Arjan dev jees time because at the end of the beer, the GurSikh has indicated his name, his source of copying the beer(the Aad beer) and the year he did so.Quote
Tsingh
Was Raagmala found in that Bir?
And could the authenticity of the Bir be proven somehow? There are too many Birs that have been claimed to be written by different people without any evidence.
Re: Kartarpuri Beerh July 23, 2012 07:27AM |
Re: Kartarpuri Beerh July 23, 2012 12:12PM |
Quote
People who argue that presence of blank angs in the Kartarpur Bir is the biggest proof that it's the original Bir, are mistaken in their analysis. It just does not make sense to have blank angs because the Bir is binded only after it has been completed. How could the original Bir of Guru Sahib contain blank angs? Having blank angs would have made it so badly susceptible to doctoring, as anti-Gurmat elements could enter Kachi Baani in the blank angs.
Quote
The Perfect Master - Siri Guru Arjun Dev jee - who so diligently protected the authenticity of Gurbani and whose one of the reason for compiling this Bir was to ensure that Gurbani does not get mixed up with fake Baani, could have never committed the mistake of leaving blank Angs in the Aad Bir.
Quote
Sure, as per our history, at one time the Dhir Malis were in possession of the Aad Bir and this remained a fact even till the times of Maharaja Ranjit Singh but the current day Bir is not the original one.
Quote
Let alone Guru Arjan dev being a Spiritual personality, even if he was a ordinary successor to some religious dera, he was the fifth in line, and Bhai Gurdass was born and brough up in Sikh atmosphere, would'nt they already know the truth about Prana Sangli?
Quote
The author of the book has never seen the beer himself.He was a office babu doing eight to
five duty all his life. He is also responsible for creating many misunderstandings about sikh
scriptures and sikh literature after retirement.
Re: Kartarpuri Beerh July 23, 2012 12:40PM |
Quote
How could the blank Angs not be in the Birh Sahib? A copy, on the other hand, would not have any. Taking blank spaces out after completion would have meant breaking the continuity of Ang numbers.
Re: Kartarpuri Beerh July 23, 2012 02:45PM |
Re: Kartarpuri Beerh July 23, 2012 05:42PM |
Re: Kartarpuri Beerh July 23, 2012 06:51PM |
Re: Kartarpuri Beerh July 24, 2012 07:54AM |
Re: Kartarpuri Beerh July 24, 2012 09:13AM |
Quote
Puratan scholars including Kahan Singh Nabha held that the current Birh Sahib is the original one.
Re: Kartarpuri Beerh July 24, 2012 09:30AM |
Re: Kartarpuri Beerh July 24, 2012 01:42PM |
Quote
Daljit singh has not seen the beerh himself.How can he write on something that he has not studied.
Re: Kartarpuri Beerh July 24, 2012 04:18PM |
Quote
Bhai Jasjit Singh Ji, I am familiar with the letter and I have read it again but nowhere does it state that the Birh Sahib is not authentic. Inclusion of additional compositions at the end does not make the Birh Sahib unauthentic. You are confusing between the two. Bhai Kahan Singh simply states that he observed additional compositions which are not Gurbani but he never states that the Birh Sahib itself is not authentic. He held the belief that the Birh Sahib is authentic and the argument he forwards in this favor is the blank Ang between the total count and Raag Maala. This means he had no problem with the authenticity of the Birh Sahib.
Re: Kartarpuri Beerh July 24, 2012 07:01PM |
Quote
BijlaSIngh
It makes sense to me that Guru Sahib numbered the Angs first and wrote Bani as it came to Him. This was done to keep the Bani organized and structured. He kept spaces for each Raag and added Bani in appropriate places.
Re: Kartarpuri Beerh July 24, 2012 08:41PM |
Quote
Perhaps I am misunderstanding your statement. Are you claiming Sri GUru Ji scribed the Kartarpur Beerh Sahib instead of BHai GUrdas JI. Or are you claiming BHai Gurdas Ji scribed the bani as Pancham PaathShah recited Dhur Ki Bani?
Re: Kartarpuri Beerh July 24, 2012 11:17PM |
Re: Kartarpuri Beerh July 25, 2012 05:52AM |
Bhai Bijla Singh jio, Daas would appreciate if you could post the images of page you are talking about. Coming back to above letter I assume you agree with Bhai Kahan Singh what he stated in this letter i.e raagmala is not part of this beerh, if so then what is the point of proving the authenticity of this Beerh?Quote
Bhai Sahib Ji, Bhai Kahan Singh Nabha in his own letter doesn’t reject authenticity of the Birh Sahib. His proof of its authenticity is that there is a blank Ang between the total count and Raag Maala. In Gurmat Maartand Part 1 page 411, he states that the Kartarpuri Birh that was scribed by Bhai Gurdas Ji is now in Kartarpur. He also states that the Shabad of Mira Bai was written by Bhai Gurdas Ji but later hartaaled by Guru Sahib.
Re: Kartarpuri Beerh July 25, 2012 01:33PM |
Quote
Their lives of daftari babus till retirement are evidence enough. Did Daljit Singh calim that he saw the beer himself? If so please show us.His article is based on Bhai ( Not doctor) Jodh Singh's book.
Quote
Coming back to above letter I assume you agree with Bhai Kahan Singh what he stated in this letter i.e raagmala is not part of this beerh, if so then what is the point of proving the authenticity of this Beerh?
Re: Kartarpuri Beerh July 25, 2012 03:39PM |
Quote
Bhai Sahib, don’t spin the topic. You asked for proof that Bhai Kahan Singh Nabha believed in Kartarpuri Birh Sahib and it has been provided. I showed you his opinions and reasoning. What I think of his reasoning and my own belief about Raag Maala is a separate topic. I disagree with Bhai Sahib on Raag Maala but not on Kartarpuri Birh. You are again trying to mix them together. Although they are interrelated but a fine line can be drawn between them. The point I wanted to make was that anti-Raag Maala scholars in old times did not dispute authenticity of the Birh Sahib. Please let me know how to upload images to this forum. I would prefer tying verbatim.
Re: Kartarpuri Beerh July 25, 2012 04:12PM |
Re: Kartarpuri Beerh July 25, 2012 04:54PM |
Quote
By this logic you are pick and choosing what you like but not what the facts are for the Beerh.
Quote
Where as I am interested to see what differently Bhai Kahn Singh have said for pages before 974 due to your statement that he consider the Beerh is original one (for which you haven’t provided his writings yet).
Quote
So far one fact is established that Bhai Kahan Singh refuted anything after page 974 of Kartarpuri Beerh, based on this fact Beerh can not be considered as authentic.
Quote
BTW, since you have also brought in the name of Pandit Kartar Singh Dakha that he also considered this Beerh as original one
Re: Kartarpuri Beerh July 25, 2012 06:39PM |
Re: Kartarpuri Beerh July 25, 2012 07:45PM |