Balraj Singh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Akaal74 Ji,
>
>
> All these experinces you mentioned above from Guru
> Granth Sahib have absolutely no room for doubts
>
> --- Dropdi was saved by Waheguru but the Waheguru
> did it through Krishan by providing his Kala.
> --- Incidents abt Kabeer Ji,Sadna ji are all after
> their had reached that stage of GURU SAHIB's Kirpa
> so its possible for them to do anything
>
>
> The question in this thread is how DHANNA JI got
> his ਗੋਸਾਈਆਂ (Vaheguru), the Bani
> Shabads mentioned above doesnt keep in line with
> the VIDHI mentioned in this VAAR.
>
>
> they didn't recieve the avastha of what gurbani
> considers the ultimate state of brahm gyaan.
>
> So isnt the Avastha of the meeting
> ਗੋਸਾਈਆਂ (Vaheguru) still above this
> ?
>
> Bhul Chuk Maaf !!
Veerjio
Daas is not saying that Bhagat Dhanna Ji got the Sakhkhand darshan avastha before getting Naam from Guru Sahib. Daas is only trying to put forward the point that the bhagats did a lot of bhagti before meeting Guru sahib. Even though it was through kirtam naam or sargun saroop bhagti in some cases. As there avastha developed they moved more in to the nirgun saroop bhagti. But yes the final stage was only crossed when Guru Nanak Sahib blessed them with Gurmantar.
Having said that, daas is also of the view that Akal purakh is not limited to Sikhs only. There are good people with spiritual feelings everywhere and in every religion. I remember Bhai Kulbir Singh wrote in one post that if someone does bhagti (of kirtam naam) with motive to get swarg they may get it. Or someone wanting to see glimpse of Raam or Vishnu (devi devtes). Similarly all the bhagats had been doing their bit. They did get spiritual experiences (not sachkhand darshan though) and lot of these experiences are quoted by Bhai Gurdas Ji and some even find mention in the Gurbani.
These bhagat jans were one in millions. The experiences they had can not be used to promote pathar pooja or other non gurmat activites but the logic behind these experiences is what Bhai Gurdas Ji explains in the last pangti that Bhagat Dhanna had bhola bhaao. If through bhola bhao bhagti he could see the pathar talking what's wrong with that. One other bhagat saw the pathar not drowing in the river and swimming across.
Bhagat Naamdev Ji has clearly said
hi(n)dhoo poojai dhaehuraa musalamaan maseeth ||
The Hindu worships at the temple, the Muslim at the mosque.
naamae soee saeviaa jeh dhaehuraa n maseeth ||4||3||7||
Naam Dayv serves that Lord, who is not limited to either the temple or the mosque. ||4||3||7||
So yes same as Bhagat Dhanna, Bhagat Kabir and others Bhagat NaamDev ji also did bhagti of Waheguru through kirpa of Guru Nanak Sahib. But Gurbani also is witness to Bhagat Ji's life before meeting Guru Nanak Sahib where Bhagat ji went to the temple and was not allowed inside the temple by pandats. The temple still stands with turned direction in Orissa and Akal purakh had twisted the temple to face towards bhagat ji
hasath khaelath thaerae dhaehurae aaeiaa ||
bhagath karath naamaa pakar out(h)aaeiaa ||1||
heenarree jaath maeree jaadhim raaeiaa ||
shheepae kae janam kaahae ko aaeiaa ||1|| rehaao ||
lai kamalee chaliou palattaae ||
dhaehurai paashhai bait(h)aa jaae ||2||
jio jio naamaa har gun oucharai ||
bhagath janaa(n) ko dhaehuraa firai ||3||6||
Laughing and playing, I came to Your Temple, O Lord.
While Naam Dayv was worshipping, he was grabbed and driven out. ||1||
I am of a low social class, O Lord;
why was I born into a family of fabric dyers? ||1||Pause||
I picked up my blanket and went back,
to sit behind the temple. ||2||
As Naam Dayv uttered the Glorious Praises of the Lord,
the temple turned around to face the Lord's humble devotee. ||3||6||
There is anothe example in vaar by Bhai Gurdas Ji where Bhagat Namdev Ji also did do pooja of Thakur (this is also pathar)
ka(n)m kithai pio chaliaa naamadhaeo no aakh sidhhaaeiaa||
t(h)aakur dhee saevaa karee dhudhh peeaavan kehi samajhaaeiaa||
naamadhaeo eisanaan kar kapal gaae dhuhi kai lai aaeiaa||
t(h)aakur no nhaavaal kai charanodhak lai thilak charrhaaeiaa||
hathh jorr binathee karai dhudhh peeahu jee gobi(n)dh raaeiaa||
nihacho kar aaraadhhiaa hoe dhaeiaal dharas dhikhalaaeiaa||
bharee kattoree naamadhaev lai t(h)aakur no dhudhh peeaaeiaa||
gaae muee jhaviaalioun naamadhaev dhaa shhapar shhaaeiaa||
faer dhaehuraa rakhioun chaar varan lai pairee paaeiaa||
bhagath janaa dhaa karae karaaeiaa ||11||
Namdev's father was called to do some work so he called Naamdev.
He told Namdev to serve Thakur, the Lord, with milk.
After taking bath Namdev brought the milk of black-teat cow.
Having bathed the Thakur, he put the water used to wash the Thakur, on his own head.
Now with folded hands he requested the Lord to have milk.
Becoming steadfast in his thoughts when he prayed, the Lord appeared before him in person.
Namdev made Lord drink the full bowl of milk.
On another occasion God brought a dead cow to life and also thatched the hut of Namdev.
On yet another occasion, God rotated the temple (after Namdev was not allowed entrance) and made all the four castes (varnas) bow at the feet of Namdev.
The Lord accomplishes whatever is done and desired by saints.(11)
Why can't we believe that Bhagat Jan were given some form of indication by Akal purakh to show them yes he is there and generated the Bhagti Chaao in their munn? Yes their methods of bhagti initially were not in line were gurmat but Akal purakh brought them on the right track through Guru Nanak Sahib.
For a gursikh, the message is clear that bhagti by gurmat vidhi through gurmantar naam is the only method. But the numerous examples that appear in Gurbani or Varaan of Bhai Gurdas Ji are not contradictory. They just give us the glimpse of their life before meeting Sache Patshah Guru Nanak Sahib.
This is the only point that daas wants to make humbly that the sakhis of bhagats are not false. Its the way they are preached by modern day kathakaars to somehow say all paths to god are equal and you can find him even by doing moorti pooja etc.
Let us explain the context of these sakhis with a logical approach using gurmat principles not rejecting them completely.