ਧੰਨਾ ਜਟ ਤੇ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣ ਕਹਾਣੀ ??

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cant believe my eyes when I have read some of the comments on this thread.
How in the world can we be so quick to reject the writings of Bhai Gurdas JI?

Sukhdeep Singh jeeo, how did you reach the conclusion that someone here is "rejecting" writings of Bhai Gurdaas jee? To consider that Vaar 10 contains metaphors and Drishtaant does not equal rejecting Bhai Gurdaas jee's Baani. Would you also consider Bhai Vir Singh jee of this offence of rejecting Bhai Gurdaas jee's Baani because as per his quote (written in posts above), he is saying the same thing i.e. Vaar 10 contains Drishtaant and that Bhai Gurdaas jee is not writing history in this Vaar?

Concerned Gursikhs have only one issue with the Brahman Saakhi - that Vaheguru cannot be attained without the True Guru and by worshiping an idol. As I stated before, it is possible he had Darshan of Vishnu but to even think that Vaheguru would get pleased at someone worshiping Him through an idol and that too without a Gurmantr (not even Kirtam Naam) is going against Gurbani Hukams that say that no Gurmat Sidhi can be attained through idol worshiping.

Here are additional comments by Bhai Vir Singh jee on this Saakhi:

ਇਸ ਕਥਾ ਵਿਚ ਇਹ ਉਪਦੇਸ਼ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਦ੍ਰਿੜ੍ਹ ਵਿਸ਼ਵਾਸ ਬਹੁਤ ਅੱਛੀ ਚੀਜ਼ ਹੈ, ਅਰ ਚੰਚਲਤਾ ਨਿਸ਼ਚੇ ਹੀ ਹਾਨੀ ਕਰਦੀ ਹੈ। ਭੋਲਾ ਭਾ ਭਰੋਸੇ ਨੂੰ ਪੱਕਾ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ।ਦ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਟਾਂਤ ਦਾ ਸਦਾ ਇਕ ਅੰਗ ਲਈਦਾ ਹੈ, ਇਸ ਕਰਕੇ ਇਥੇ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣ ਦਾ ਛਲ ਤੇ ਧੰਨੇ ਦੀ ਨਾਵਾਕਫੀ ਨਾਲ ਪ੍ਰਯੋਜਨ ਨਹੀਂ, ਕੇਵਲ ਉਸ ਸੂਖਮ ਵਿਸ਼ਵਾਸ ਦੀ ਅੰਸ਼ ਨਾਲ ਮਤਲਬ ਹੈ, ਜੋ ਧੰਨੇ ਦੇ ਜੀਅ ਵਿਚ ਸਚਮੁਚ ਸਮਾ ਗਈ।

Bhai Sahib has clearly called this Saakhi a "Drishtaant" and preached us to take only one "Ang" or aspect of this Saakhi i.e. that Bhola Bhao helps spiritually. I hope we don't start accusing Bhai Vir Singh jee too of rejecting Bhai Gurdaas jee's Baani and even going as far as saying that he is doubting Bhagat Baani.

Kulbir Singh

Kulbir SIngh Jeeo, take a look at one of the comments on this thread

"No idea how this story was invented. As Bhai Balraaj Singh jee mentioned if one does uprala (trial) to read Gurbani by him/herself, one do not have to rely on fabricated stories. Bhagat Dhanda Jee’s inspiration to do bhagati was not from Brahmin who was doing pooja of a stone but he was derived by bhagti of other Bhagats who were belonging to lower and untouchable classes of Indian culture" Jasjit Singh Ji

How in the world do you come up with conclusion this is not rejecting the 10th vaar of Bhai Gurdas Ji. This vaar is based on the story of the Bahman and BHai Gurdas Ji. It seems strange to accept the last pangti of the vaar, but then deny the validity/accuracy of the remaining pangtis.

Bhai Vir Singh Ji does not mention the sakhi is false he merely states the gist of this verse is related to Bhao Bhagti not following the advice of a Bahman.

Do you believe in the story of Ganika and the parrot. If you can accept this story why cant you accept story of Bhagat Dhanna Ji.

THrough fear the world seems real.
Through fear what is false seems real.
Only Guru Sahibs grace can remove this fear and show what is real and what is not.

This creation is Waahegurus jis Khel, nothing is real here. Whatever event which has come to pass is simply
a dream, a rope in the dark, but through our fear this khel has become a snake to such an extent we have adopted Adult like intelligence in trying to understand WaaheGurus khel.

This world is billions of years old, and with our limited intelligence we can never understand the characters and events which have occured in this world.What good is it to reject information entailed in Gurbani ( parrot sakhi) and/or Gurmat literature ( dhanna sakhi)? Such rejection only leads to doubt. These stories are not to praise Waahegurus khel; instead, these stories to praise WaaheGUrus grace. We should accept these storys with child like intelligence. We are taking a dangerous route by first rejecting the sakhis in bhai gurdas jis writings because they dont fit within the framework of our own intelligence.

Ha Ha, Veer Sukhdeep Singh Ji is here, to have the baton from me. I can do some rest in this Relay Race.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh.

Bhai Sukhdeep Singh jeeo,

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How in the world do you come up with conclusion this is not rejecting the 10th vaar of Bhai Gurdas Ji.

Since the passage you quoted belongs to Bhai Jasjit Singh, I will let him respond to your question. I can only say that I believe Bhai Jasjit Singh fully believes in Bhai Gurdaas jee's Baani and does not reject it.

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It seems strange to accept the last pangti of the vaar, but then deny the validity/accuracy of the remaining pangtis.

Please refer to Bhai Vir Singh jee's assertion that this is a Drishtaant. Please read his Punjabi text carefully. Bhai Sahib is saying that in a Drishtaant, only the aspect that is being stressed should be taken and not everything else in that Drishtaant.

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Bhai Vir Singh Ji does not mention the sakhi is false he merely states the gist of this verse is related to Bhao Bhagti not following the advice of a Bahman.

You need to re-read Bhai Vir Singh jee's two quotes that Bhai Bijla Singh quoted in his posts.

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Do you believe in the story of Ganika and the parrot. If you can accept this story why cant you accept story of Bhagat Dhanna Ji.

Firstly the story of Ganika has been quoted in Gurbani, so it is believable one hundred percent and the story of Dhanna jee has not been mentioned in Gurbani and secondly, Siri Guru Arjun Dev jee has bypassed this Saakhi and instead stated how Bhagat Dhanna jee attained Vaheguru. Please read previous posts for Guru Sahib's Shabad on Bhagat Dhanna.

Thirdly, my contention with this Saakhi has always been that we can't believe that Bhagat Dhanna jee attained Vaheguru through the worship of stone because as per Gurbani no one can attain Vaheguru through the worship of a stone. He may have had Darshan of a lessor diety like Vishnu. Miracles have happened with Bhagats of lower dieties too.

Kulbir Singh

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Sukhdeep Singh
Do you believe in the story of Ganika and the parrot. If you can accept this story why cant you accept story of Bhagat Dhanna Ji.

The story of Ganika mentions that she japped "Raam, Raam", which is of course a Kirtan Naam of Vaheguroo, and only bears the fruit it provides. GANIKA DID NOT WORSHIP THE PARROT. But in the folklore story about Bhagat Dhana ji, it suggests he worshiped the stone and attained salvation. But such statement is contrary to Gurmat on the basis that stone or stone idol worshiping has been disapproved by Guru Sahiban. Whatever Our Gurus taught, it was to lead us towards the True Path of God. I understand you can be a scholar, but bear with me, sometimes your points could be wrong.

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Sukhdeep Singh
This creation is Waahegurus jis Khel, nothing is real here. Whatever event which has come to pass is simply
a dream, a rope in the dark, but through our fear this khel has become a snake to such an extent we have adopted Adult like intelligence in trying to understand WaaheGurus khel.

Of course, everything is a Khel/Tamasha of Satguroo Mahaaraaj, but that does not mean we should ignore His Teachings, which are reflected in Gurbaani, and just live a baffled and ignorant life. Listening to Satguroo Mahaaraaj Bachans and obeying them with full faith, certainly does not mean we are using "adult like intelligence". Isn't this the opposite?

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Sukhdeep Singh
We are taking a dangerous route by first rejecting the sakhis in bhai gurdas jis writings because they dont fit within the framework of our own intelligence.

No one is rejecting anything, whether it is Siri Guru Granth Sahib jee Mahaaraaj, Dasam Granth, Rehitnamey or Vaars of Bhai Sahib Gurdaas jee. But analyzing these sources and doing a deeper study certainly doesn't hurt someone. By merely reading them, and not doing Vichaar, certainly isn't Bibek. So one side we conclude and very proudly say that we bow to Siri Guru Granth Sahib jee Mahaaraaj, and that He is Our Guru, and worshiping Him is not at all idol worship because idol worship does not get you anywhere, but on the other hand, we are fully supporting it by saying Bhagat Dhana jee had Darshan of Vaheguroo because he worshiped a stone? Even if one does full faith in a stone, and consider it to be God, or a deity, it still does not change the fact that it is a stone. Whether you kiss the stone or bow to it, it bears no fruit.

By making statements such as we reject Bhai Gurdaas jee and his writings, you are only baseless statements.

Singho, is this thread and discussion really benefiting anyone? It has reached an impasse, and it does not seem to be leading anywhere. What is the point of continuing this? Everyone who has taken part has already expressed his or her views, and I don't think there is any further need to beat this dead horse any longer.

I know this is a forum, but as GurSikh Bhaees, I think we should all use our real Guru-given names. It's a shame that people hide behind screen IDs and fake names and throw insults at others. Would we speak in such a way if we were discussing things in person, knowing one another's names?

Tarnveer Singh

Mere veero

We can discuss this further if we agree that none here rejects or questions Bhai gurdas Ji vaars. Everyone has again and again repeated that they are the kunjiz and by no means they can be questioned. Can we say something more than this to prove that Noone here is so called kala afghana lobby. Very strange.


The only real discussion here was if this vaar is drishtant or a real saki and veers above have already given the thoughts why they seem to be drishtants. Bhai veer Singhs quotes and more references have been provided.I don't think there is anything more to say or left out, all I could definitely say is that if there was someting in real of this sort dhan guru Arjun sahib ji must have put in guru Granth sahib to teach us Bhola bhau with stone. But it didn't happen like that, guru sahib had made no reference and hence we have to think it on those lines if we could for a min think that there are no kala afghana people here on this forum.

I think the thread can be closed and rather we use the energies now to do some naam/paath to request guru sahib to please give us mafffi if someone by any means knowingly/unknowingly has given a pain to anyone while discussing this topic that somehow came to my mind while doing vichar on bhagat ji's bani. Guru sahib sadian galtian Maaf Karan Te agge ton kirpa Karan ke assin har vichar guru sahib de OT ASRe Te bhey bhavni Vich kar sakkiye Ji.


All involved gursikhs are requested to do one extra chaupi sahib to say guru sahib "sorrry" if we had gone anti gurmat Te jaaan Sade kolon apne veer da dil dukahaya Gaya hove. Daas urges Maafi from everyone for any pain to anyone.


Bole so Nihal - sat Sri Akal!!!

I fail to understand why so much effort is being put to debunk the practice of idol worship in this thread when no one is promoting it in the first place. No one in this thread has advocated idol worship or have suggested that is how Bhagat Dhanna Ji obtained enlightenment.

I thought the issue on hand was whether the events in the above mentioned sakhi actually occurred in the life of Bhagat Dhanna Ji.

Bhai Bijla Singh noted that Bhai Veer Singh Ji has suggested in Vaar 10 that "drishtaant" analogies/examples are used by Bhai Sahib Ji. Actually, Pandit Hazara Singh is the author of the steek of Bhai Gurdas Ji's Vaars, Bhai Veer Singh Ji merely edited and published the steek. Neither of the authors make it clear about exactly where the drishtaant are being used - particularly in the moral or in the actual events described.

More importantly, the steek interpretations do not reject the events in the pauree. Overall the interpretation provided in the steek is on-par with the sakhi in question, in fact the end verses, ਗੋਸਾਈ ਪਰਤਖਿ ਹੋਇ ਰੋਟੀ ਖਾਇ ਛਾਹਿ ਮੁਹਿ ਲਾਵੈ। are interpreted directly as: ਗੁਸਾਈਂ ਪ੍ਰਤੱਖ ਹੋਕੇ ਰੋਟੀ ਖਾਕੇ ਛਾਹ ਪੀਣ ਲੱਗੇ।

How this ਪ੍ਰਤੱਖ miracle took place, when it took place is really irrelevant, more important is :ਭੋਲਾ ਭਾਉ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਮਿਲਾਵ॥ and ਭੋਲੇ ਭਾਇੇ ਮਿਲੇ ਰਘੁਰਾਇਆ॥ state of Dhanna Ji devotion is what blessed him, much to the amazement of the clever Brahmin's (ਚੰਚਲ ਚੀਤਾ ਨ ਪਾਵੈ ਪਾਰਾ॥)

It is safe to conclude that this steek does not refute the sakhee and the events that took place. This is something the posters on this thread are stating, not Bhai Veer Singh or Pandit Hazara Singh.

There are many other "sakhis" in the 10th Vaar, of Dhru Bhagat, Prehlad Bhagat, Raja Janak,Raja Hari Chand and Tara Rani, Bidar Durjodhan, Dropati, Sudama, Bhagat NaamDev, Ahiliya, AJamal, Ganika, etc. Are they all drishtaants, and and have no historical basis?

I have not come across any evidence disproving historical basis of these sakhees.

Bhai Kulbir Singh Ji stated that:

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Firstly the story of Ganika has been quoted in Gurbani, so it is believable one hundred percent and the story of Dhanna jee has not been mentioned in Gurbani

Bhai Sahib Ji, by this logic the story of Raja Hari Chand and Tara Ranee is also not mentioned in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Since it is said to have occurred in Treta Yug, and this is before Dhur ki Banee of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji was available. Is the word "Gurbani" just a drishtaant?
Are the following verses all just drishtaant?

ਸਾਧ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਮਿਲਿ ਗਾਵਦੇ ਰਾਤੀ ਜਾਇ ਸੁਣੈ ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ। and ਸਾਧ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਆਰਾਧਿਆ ਜੋੜੀ ਜੁੜੀ ਖੜਾਉ ਪੁਰਾਣੀ।

Are Raja Hari Chand and Tara Ranee just tales of some fable?

Similar Dhanna Bhagat's sakhi, Bhai Gurdas Jee has written a pauree regarding Baba Naamdev Ji in which he states:

ਕੰਮ ਕਿਤੈ ਪਿਉ ਚਲਿਆ ਨਾਮਦੇਉ ਨੋ ਆਖਿ ਸਿਧਾਇਆ॥
ਠਾਕੁਰ ਦੀ ਸੇਵਾ ਕਰੀ ਦੁਧੁ ਪੀਆਵਣੁ ਕਹਿ ਸਮਝਾਇਆ॥
ਨਾਮਦੇਉ ਇਸਨਾਨੁ ਕਰਿ ਕਪਲ ਗਾਇ ਦੁਹਿ ਕੈ ਲੈ ਆਇਆ॥
ਠਾਕੁਰ ਨੋ ਨ੍ਹਾਵਾਲਿ ਕੈ ਚਰਣੋਦਕੁ ਲੈ ਤਿਲਕੁ ਚੜ੍ਹਾਇਆ॥
ਹਥਿ ਜੋੜਿ ਬਿਨਤੀ ਕਰੈ ਦੁਧੁ ਪੀਅਹੁ ਜੀ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਰਾਇਆ॥
ਨਿਹਚਉ ਕਰਿ ਆਰਾਧਿਆ ਹੋਇ ਦਇਆਲੁ ਦਰਸੁ ਦਿਖਲਾਇਆ॥
ਭਰੀ ਕਟੋਰੀ ਨਾਮਦੇਵਿ ਲੈ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਨੋ ਦੁਧੁ ਪੀਆਇਆ॥
ਗਾਇ ਮੁਈ ਝਵਿਾਲਿਓਨੁ ਨਾਮਦੇਵ ਦਾ ਛਪਰੁ ਛਾਇਆ॥
ਫੇਰਿ ਦੇਹੁਰਾ ਰਖਿਓਨੁ ਚਾਰਿ ਵਰਨ ਲੈ ਪੈਰੀ ਪਾਇਆ॥
ਭਗਤ ਜਨਾ ਦਾ ਕਰੇ ਕਰਾਇਆ ॥੧੧॥

The following related shabd occurs in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji in connection to the above sakhee:

ਦੂਧੁ ਕਟੋਰੈ ਗਡਵੈ ਪਾਨੀ ॥
ਕਪਲ ਗਾਇ ਨਾਮੈ ਦੁਹਿ ਆਨੀ ॥੧॥
ਦੂਧੁ ਪੀਉ ਗੋਬਿੰਦੇ ਰਾਇ ॥
ਦੂਧੁ ਪੀਉ ਮੇਰੋ ਮਨੁ ਪਤੀਆਇ ॥
ਨਾਹੀ ਤ ਘਰ ਕੋ ਬਾਪੁ ਰਿਸਾਇ ॥੧॥

Many teekas and steeks, while attempting to point out that Baba Naamdev Ji was not a idol worshipper, have done very interesting interpretations of the above shabd. While some are loosely based on the above Bhai Gurdas Jee's sakhee, others have presented a complete separate spiritual interpretation that has no connection to the sakhee.

Sensing the cynicism of some of our scholars, the respected Giani Harbans Singh Ji Patialaywale in his his steek "Sri Guru Granth Sahib Darhsan Nirnay" states the following words of caution in his analysis of this shabd:

ਗੁਰਸਿਖਾਂ ਦੀ ਜਗਿਆਸਾ ਗਿਆਨ ਸਹਿਤ ਭਿਜੀ ਹੋਈ ਹੈ, ਸ਼ਰਧਾ ਭਾਵਨੀ ਵਾਲੀ ਹੋਣੀ ਚਾਹੀਦੀ ਹੈ ਪਰ ਇਹ ਕਹਿਣਾ ਵੀ ਅਨੁਚਿਤ ਹੋਵੇਗਾ ਕਿ ਪੁਰਾਤਨ ਸਾਰੀਆਂ ਸਾਖੀਆਂ ਅਤੇ ਸਾਰੇ ਵੀਚਾਰ ਹੀ ਕਲਿਪਤ ਜਾਂ ਮਨ-ਘੜਤ ਹਨ, ਜਾਂ ਇਹ ਸਾਖੀਆਂ ਦਾ ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਵਿਚ ਕੋਈ ਥਾਂ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੈ, ਜਾਂ ਇਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਦੀ ਹੋਂਦ ਹੀ ਕੋਈ ਨਹੀ ਹੈ।

He goes on to state that those who are so eager to question the offering of milk to "Parmeshar", will they also dismiss the offering of parsad-bheta before their own "Gur-Parmeshar" (Guru Granth Sahib Ji)?

In further defense of the basis of these sakhees, Giani Harbans Singh Ji quotes the late Giani Gurdit Singh Ji in his work "Ithaas Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji (Bhagat Bani Bhag) in regards to the sakhees of the Bhagats" :

"ਆਮ ਸਮਝ ਵਿਚ ਇਹ ਗੱਲਾਂ ਆਉਣੀਆਂ ਅਤੇ ਮੰਨਣੀਆਂ ਮੁਸ਼ਕਲ ਹਨ। ਇਹ ਵੱਖਰੀ ਦੁਨੀਆਂ ਦੀ ਵੱਖਰੀ ਅਵਸਥਾ ਦੇ ਗੋਹਝ ਰਹੱਸ ਹਨ"

I too can not fathom the depth of devotion of these Divine Bhagats who am I to dismiss any event or ghatna from their miraculous jeevans?

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Kulbir Singh
The idol he worshiped was a Saligraam (I believe) which means he was worshiping Vishnu. How did he attain Vaheguru by worshiping an idol of Vishnu?

The account given by Bhai Gurdass jee, doesn't say it was a Saligraam idol.
ਧੰਨਾ ਕਰਦਾ ਜੋਦੜੀ ਮੈ ਭਿ ਦੇਹ ਇਕ ਜੇ ਤੁਧੁ ਭਾਵੈ||
ਪਥਰੁ ਇਕ ਲਪੇਟਿ ਕਰਿ, ਦੇ ਧੰਨੈ ਨੋ ਗੈਲ ਛੁਡਾਵੈ|| <--- Please note it's a ਪਥਰੁ not a deity's idol
Vishnu was never part of the sakhi.

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Kulbir Singh
Vaar 10 of Bhai Gurdaas jee contains Drishtaants (metaphors or simile) to make a Gurmat point. The last Pankiti of each of these 23 Pauris contains the Gurmat Sidhaant. Bhai Sahib jee has used the prevalent stories to highlight a Gurmat principle.
Gurmat does not agree with this story.

The 8th Pauri of this Vaar talks about how Panchali's (Drupadi's) honour was kept by Siri Krishna. Gurbani alludes to Panchali many times but never does it say that Siri Krishna kept her honour. It was only and only Vaheguru jee who kept her honour. Bhai Gurdaas jee is simply using the prevalent story to make the Gurmat point that ਨਾਥ ਅਨਾਥਾਂ ਬਾਣਿ ਧੁਰਾਂਦੀ ॥੮॥ i.e. the Master Vaheguru keeps honour of those who have no other support.

Vaar 10 does not contain historical facts.

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Bijla Singh
ਇਸ ਵਾਰ ਵਿਚ ਲੋਕ ਪ੍ਰਸਿੱਧ ਕਥਾਵਾਂ ਦ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਟਾਂਤ ਦੇ ਢੰਗ ਪਰ ਕਹੀਆਂ ਹਨ ਜਿਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਵਿਚੋਂ ਪਰਮਾਰਥ ਦੇ ਬੜੇ ਬੜੇ ਉਪਦੇਸ਼ ਨਿਕਲਦੇ ਹਨ । ਭਾਈ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਜੀ ਇਤਿਹਾਸ ਨਹੀਂ ਲਿਖ ਰਹੇ, ਦ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਟਾਂਤ ਦੇ ਕੇ ਆਪਣੇ ਉਪਦੇਸ ਨੂੰ ਪ੍ਰਕਾਸ਼ ਕਰਦੇ ਹਨ । ਦ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਟਾਂਤ ਦਾ ਹਮੇਸ਼ਾਂ ਇਕ ਅੰਗ ਲਈਦਾ ਹੈ, ਜੇ ਦੋ ਦੋ ਅੰਗ ਲਏ ਗਏ ਤਦ ਭਾਈ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਜੀ ਦੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਪਰ ਪਰਸਪਰ ਵਿਰੋਧ ਦਾ ਦੂਸ਼ਨ ਲਗੇਗਾ ।...ਸਾਡੀ ਵਿਦਿਆ ਦਾ ਆਮ ਅਸੂਲ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਦ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਟਾਂਤ ਦਾ ਸਦਾ ਇਕ ਅੰਗ ਲੈਣਾ ਹੈ । ਦੂਜੇ ਪ੍ਰਸਿੱਧ ਕਥਾਵਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਉਪਦੇਸ਼ ਮਾਤ੍ਰ ਕਹਿਣਾ ਕਰਤਾ ਨੂੰ ਇਤਿਹਾਸਕ ਸਤਯਤਾ ਦਾ ਜਿੰਮੇਵਾਰ ਬੀ ਨਹੀਂ ਠਹਿਰਾਉਂਦਾ । ਉਹ ਪੱਖ ਜੁਦਾ ਹੈ, ਇਹ ਪੱਖ ਜੁਦਾ ਹੈ, ਪਾਠਕ ਜਨ ਰਲਾ ਮਿਲਾਕੇ ਰੌਲੇ ਵਿਚ ਨਾ ਪੈ ਜਾਣ ।

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Kulbir Singh
ਇਸ ਕਥਾ ਵਿਚ ਇਹ ਉਪਦੇਸ਼ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਦ੍ਰਿੜ੍ਹ ਵਿਸ਼ਵਾਸ ਬਹੁਤ ਅੱਛੀ ਚੀਜ਼ ਹੈ, ਅਰ ਚੰਚਲਤਾ ਨਿਸ਼ਚੇ ਹੀ ਹਾਨੀ ਕਰਦੀ ਹੈ। ਭੋਲਾ ਭਾ ਭਰੋਸੇ ਨੂੰ ਪੱਕਾ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ।ਦ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਟਾਂਤ ਦਾ ਸਦਾ ਇਕ ਅੰਗ ਲਈਦਾ ਹੈ, ਇਸ ਕਰਕੇ ਇਥੇ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣ ਦਾ ਛਲ ਤੇ ਧੰਨੇ ਦੀ ਨਾਵਾਕਫੀ ਨਾਲ ਪ੍ਰਯੋਜਨ ਨਹੀਂ, ਕੇਵਲ ਉਸ ਸੂਖਮ ਵਿਸ਼ਵਾਸ ਦੀ ਅੰਸ਼ ਨਾਲ ਮਤਲਬ ਹੈ, ਜੋ ਧੰਨੇ ਦੇ ਜੀਅ ਵਿਚ ਸਚਮੁਚ ਸਮਾ ਗਈ।

I and other gursikhs firmly do not doubt that Bhai Sahib's Varaan 10 are just a mere ਦ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਟਾਂਤ . As a matter of fact,a few DO correlate with the Saints/people and incidents mentioned in Sree Guru Granth Sahib Jee.

1.Let's look at the Index of the Sakhis in Vaaran 10:

Pauri No. Pauri Name

1 Dhruv , ਧ੍ਰੂ ਭਗਤ
2 Prahlad ,ਪ੍ਰਹਲਾਦ ਭਗਤ
3 Bali, the king, ਰਾਜਾ ਬਲਿ
4 Ambaris,ਅੰਬਰੀਕ ਭਗਤੀ
5 King Janak,ਰਾਜਾ ਜਨਕ
6 Harischandar and queen Taramati,ਹਰੀ ਚੰਦ ਤੇ ਤਾਰਾ ਰਾਣੀ
7 Vidur and Duryodhan, ਬਿਦਰ ਅਰ ਦੁਰਜੋਧਨ
8 Draupadi, ਦ੍ਰੋਪਤੀ
9 Sudama,ਸੁਦਾਮਾ ਭਗਤ
10 Jaidev, ਜੈਦੇਉ ਭਗਤ
11 Namdev,ਨਾਮਦੇਵ
12 Namdev and Trilochan,ਨਾਮਦੇਵ ਅਰ ਤ੍ਰਿਲੋਚਨ
13 Dhanna and brahmin,ਧੰਨਾ ਅਤੇ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਨ
14 Beni,ਬੇਣੀ ਭਗਤ
15 Kabir and Ramanand,ਕਬੀਰ ਅਤੇ ਰਾਮਾਨੰਦ
16 Sain, The barber,ਸੈਨ ਨਾਈ
17 Ravidas,ਰਵਿਦਾਸ ਭਗਤ
18 Ahalya and Gautam,ਅਹਿੱਲਿਆ ਅਤੇ ਗੋਤਮ
19 Valmiki,ਬਾਲਮੀਕ ਬਟਵਾੜਾ
20 Ajamal,ਅਜਾਮਲ
21 The Prostitute,ਗਨਿਕਾ
22 Putana,ਪੂਤਨਾ
23 Demise of Krishan at the hands of a hunter,ਬੱਧਕ ਦਾ ਪ੍ਰਸੰਗ

Lets leave Dhanna's & Draupadi's story aside for a second, as they have already been dismissed as "ਦ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਟਾਂਤ" . Please refer to all the 23 Sakhis in Vaar 10 in this link:
Vaar 10

a.Lets take a look at Prahlad's story from both souces.

Gurbani:
ਸੰਡਾ ਮਰਕਾ ਜਾਇ ਪੁਕਾਰੇ ॥
Sanda and Marka went and complained to Harnaakhash,

ਪੜੈ ਨਹੀ ਹਮ ਹੀ ਪਚਿ ਹਾਰੇ ॥
Your son does not read his lessons. We are tired of trying to teach him.

ਰਾਮੁ ਕਹੈ ਕਰ ਤਾਲ ਬਜਾਵੈ ਚਟੀਆ ਸਭੈ ਬਿਗਾਰੇ ॥੧॥
He chants the Lord's Name, clapping his hands to keep the beat; he has spoiled all the other students. ||1||

ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮਾ ਜਪਿਬੋ ਕਰੈ ॥
He chants the Lord's Name,

ਹਿਰਦੈ ਹਰਿ ਜੀ ਕੋ ਸਿਮਰਨੁ ਧਰੈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
and he has enshrined meditative remembrance of the Lord within his heart."||1||Pause||

ਬਸੁਧਾ ਬਸਿ ਕੀਨੀ ਸਭ ਰਾਜੇ ਬਿਨਤੀ ਕਰੈ ਪਟਰਾਨੀ ॥
Your father the king has conquered the whole world, said his mother the queen.

ਪੂਤੁ ਪ੍ਰਹਿਲਾਦੁ ਕਹਿਆ ਨਹੀ ਮਾਨੈ ਤਿਨਿ ਤਉ ਅਉਰੈ ਠਾਨੀ ॥੨॥
O Prahlad my son, you do not obey him, so he has decided to deal with you in another way.||2||

ਦੁਸਟ ਸਭਾ ਮਿਲਿ ਮੰਤਰ ਉਪਾਇਆ ਕਰਸਹ ਅਉਧ ਘਨੇਰੀ ॥
The council of villains met and resolved to send Prahlaad into the life hereafter.

ਗਿਰਿ ਤਰ ਜਲ ਜੁਆਲਾ ਭੈ ਰਾਖਿਓ ਰਾਜਾ ਰਾਮਿ ਮਾਇਆ ਫੇਰੀ ॥੩॥
Prahlaad was thrown off a mountain, into the water, and into a fire, but the Sovereign Lord God saved him, by changing the laws of nature. ||3||

ਕਾਢਿ ਖੜਗੁ ਕਾਲੁ ਭੈ ਕੋਪਿਓ ਮੋਹਿ ਬਤਾਉ ਜੁ ਤੁਹਿ ਰਾਖੈ ॥
Harnaakhash thundered with rage and threatened to kill Prahlaad. "Tell me, who can save you?

ਪੀਤ ਪੀਤਾਂਬਰ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣ ਧਣੀ ਥੰਭ ਮਾਹਿ ਹਰਿ ਭਾਖੈ ॥੪॥
Prahlaad answered, "The Lord, the Master of the three worlds, is contained even in this pillar to which I am tied."||4||

ਹਰਨਾਖਸੁ ਜਿਨਿ ਨਖਹ ਬਿਦਾਰਿਓ ਸੁਰਿ ਨਰ ਕੀਏ ਸਨਾਥਾ ॥
The Lord who tore Harnaakhash apart with His nails proclaimed Himself the Lord of gods and men.

ਕਹਿ ਨਾਮਦੇਉ ਹਮ ਨਰਹਰਿ ਧਿਆਵਹ ਰਾਮੁ ਅਭੈ ਪਦ ਦਾਤਾ ॥੫॥੩॥੯॥
Says Naam Dayv, I meditate on the Lord, the Man-lion, the Giver of fearless dignity. ||5||3||9||
(ang 1165)

Bhai Gurdass ji, Vaar 10:
ਘਰਿ ਹਰਣਾਖਸ ਦੈਤ ਦੇ ਕਲਰਿ ਕਵਲੁ ਭਗਤੁ ਪ੍ਰਹਿਲਾਦੁ।
Prahlad, the saint, was born in the house of demon (king) Haranakhas like a lotus is born in the alkaline (barren) land.

ਪੜ੍ਹਨ ਪਠਾਇਆ ਚਾਟਸਾਲ ਪਾਂਧੈ ਚਿਤਿ ਹੋਆ ਅਹਿਲਾਦੁ।
When he was sent to seminary, the brahmin purohit became elated (because the king’s son was now his disciple).
ਸਿਮਰੈ ਮਨ ਵਿਚਿ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਗਾਵੈ ਸਬਦੁ ਅਨਾਹਦ ਨਾਦੁ।
Prahlad would remember the name of Ram in his heart and outwardly also he would eulogise the Lord.
ਭਗਤਿ ਕਰਨਿ ਸਭ ਚਾਟੜੈ ਪਾਂਧੇ ਹੋਏ ਰਹੇ ਵਿਸਮਾਦੁ।
Now all the disciples became devotees of Lord, which was an awful and embarrassing situation for all the teachers.
ਰਾਜੇ ਪਾਸਿ ਰੂਆਇਆ ਦੋਖੀ ਦੈਤਿ ਵਧਾਇਆ ਵਾਦੁ।
The priest (teacher) reported or complained to the king (that O king your son has become devotee of God).
ਜਲ ਅਗਨੀ ਵਿਚਿ ਘਤਿਆ ਜਲੈ ਨ ਡੁਬੈ ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦਿ।
The malevolent demon picked up the quarrel. Prahlad was thrown into fire and water but with the grace of Guru (the Lord) neither he was burnt nor drowned.
ਕਢਿ ਖੜਗੁ ਸਦਿ ਪੁਛਿਆ ਕਉਣੁ ਸੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਹੈ ਉਸਤਾਦੁ।
Angered as he was, Hiranyaksyapu took out his double-edged sword and asked Prahlad who his Guru (Lord) was.
ਥੰਮ੍ਹੁ ਪਾੜਿ ਪਰਗਟਿਆ ਨਰਸਿੰਘ ਰੂਪ ਅਨੂਪ ਅਨਾਦਿ।
At the same moment Lord God in the form of man-lion came out of pillar. His form was grand and majestic.
ਬੇਮੁਖ ਪਕੜਿ ਪਛਾੜਿਅਨੁ ਸੰਤ ਸਹਾਈ ਆਦਿ ਜੁਗਾਦਿ।
That wicked demon was thrown down and killed and thus it was proved that the Lord is kind to devotees since the time immemorial.
ਜੈ ਜੈ ਕਾਰ ਕਰਨ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾਦਿ॥੨॥
Seeing this Brahma and other gods started eulogizing the Lord.

how is BHagat Prehlads story a ਦ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਟਾਂਤ in the vaar, when SGGS Jee testifies the same?

b.How people mentioned in Gurbani like Ganika & Ajamal's story a ਦ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਟਾਂਤ, when these stories have it's roots to this Vaar 10? if Vaar 10 is just a ਦ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਟਾਂਤ, then what is the authentic source then?

c.The hunter's story in Vaaran 10:
Hunter shooting Krishan's foot
How is Sakhi of the Hunter shooting Krishan's foot a ਦ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਟਾਂਤ ? when Guru Sahib himself says....
ਚਰਨ ਬਧਿਕ ਜਨ ਤੇਊ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਭਏ ॥
The hunter who shot Krishna in the foot - even he was liberated.
(ang 345)

ਬਧਿਕੁ ਉਧਾਰਿਓ ਖਮਿ ਪ੍ਰਹਾਰ ॥
Even the hunter who shot an arrow at Krishna was saved.
(ang 1192)


Whatever narrated by Bhai Sahib correlates with the Gurbani lines above. It's quite evident a few sakhis in Vaar 10 go hand in hand with what has been said in Gurbani. So the ਦ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਟਾਂਤ reasoning is invalid.

If we reject Dhanna's Sakhi in the Vaar, then can anyone let me know , what is the real Sakhi for Dhana's child like innocence as below?

ਧੰਨੈ ਸੇਵਿਆ ਬਾਲ ਬੁਧਿ ||
Dhanna served Vahiguroo, with the innocence of a child.(ang 1192)

Chota veer

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Bhai Sahib Ji, by this logic the story of Raja Hari Chand and Tara Ranee is also not mentioned in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Since it is said to have occurred in Treta Yug, and this is before Dhur ki Banee of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji was available. Is the word "Gurbani" just a drishtaant?
Are the following verses all just drishtaant?

ਸਾਧ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਮਿਲਿ ਗਾਵਦੇ ਰਾਤੀ ਜਾਇ ਸੁਣੈ ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ। and ਸਾਧ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਆਰਾਧਿਆ ਜੋੜੀ ਜੁੜੀ ਖੜਾਉ ਪੁਰਾਣੀ।

Are Raja Hari Chand and Tara Ranee just tales of some fable?

Bhai Navjot Singh jeeo, you are opening a new topic by asking whether the word "Gurbani" is just drishtaant in the Saakhi of Raja Harichand. Are you implying that the word "Gurbani" here is being referred to Dhur kee Baani that appeared only in Kaljug after the advent of Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee? Are you implying that Dhur kee Baani i.e. Gurbani appeared in Treta Yug also?

Before moving further, even though Bhai Gurdaas jee has used this Drishtaant of Raja Harichand and Tara Rani to make the Gurmat point of importance of Sadhsangat, still Daas believes that this Saakhi is true because singing praises of the Lord is in accordance to Gurmat. Daas does not believe that Raja Harichand or Tara Rani had access to Dhur kee Baani i.e. Gurbani which has appeared only in Kalyug. Just like all other Naams other than Satnaam (Naam of Gurughar i.e. Gurmantr of Khalsa) are Kirtam Naam, similarly other Baanis, (other than Gurbani) have similar status as Kirtam Naam (perhaps they can be called Kirtam Baani). There is Mahatam in reciting Kirtam Naam or Kirtam Baani but are much inferior to Gurmat Naam and Gurbani (the only Sachi Baani).

Kulbir Singh

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The following related shabd occurs in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji in connection to the above sakhee:

ਦੂਧੁ ਕਟੋਰੈ ਗਡਵੈ ਪਾਨੀ ॥
ਕਪਲ ਗਾਇ ਨਾਮੈ ਦੁਹਿ ਆਨੀ ॥੧॥
ਦੂਧੁ ਪੀਉ ਗੋਬਿੰਦੇ ਰਾਇ ॥
ਦੂਧੁ ਪੀਉ ਮੇਰੋ ਮਨੁ ਪਤੀਆਇ ॥
ਨਾਹੀ ਤ ਘਰ ਕੋ ਬਾਪੁ ਰਿਸਾਇ ॥੧॥
Many teekas and steeks, while attempting to point out that Baba Naamdev Ji was not a idol worshipper, have done very interesting interpretations of the above shabd. While some are loosely based on the above Bhai Gurdas Jee's sakhee, others have presented a complete separate spiritual interpretation that has no connection to the sakhee.

Bhai Navjot Singh jeeo, it will be better if you start a new topic to discuss this Shabad of Bhagat Naamdev jee. And of course, Bhagat Naamdev jee was not an idol-worshipper.

Kulbir Singh

That is interesting. Since childhood, listening THIS VAAR about Tara Rani in Rein Sabhai kirtans, I never thought about that. I assumed Rani went to some Sadh Sangat where there was Gurbani. So, it was TRETA, when there was no Gurbani. Surely this sakhi will need a new thread.

Kulbir SIngh Jeeo, nobody on this forum is claiming Idol Worship is permitted
in Gurmat, and most people agree Vaar 10 is an example showing child like
devotion is needed when doing Bhagti. The disagreement occurs with the story
of Bhagat Dhana Ji mentioned by Bhai Gurdas Ji. BHai Jasjit SIngh Ji is not the only
one guilty of making outrageous claims of this story. You too have made some claims without
providing any valid evidence. Here are some the quotes you have stated in regards to the Sakhi.

"Now in the light of the above Gurbani pankiti, which Gursikh has the courage to support idol worship or believe in the story of Dhanna Jatt? Siri Dashmesh jee clearly states in his baani that no one can get anything from a stone. Who should we believe? Siri Guru jee or mythology?"


The above quote you are stating the story is a mere myth not factual.


"Bhai Gurdaas jee was fully adept in Gurmat. He knew very well that by worshiping a stone one cannot reach Vaheguru. He is just using the existing and famous story to highlight the Gurmat principle. Gurmat does not agree with this story"

Again, nobody on this forum is supporting idol worship. But can you please provide evidence in which GUru sahib says such a story never existed.

Next we will say Bhagat prahlad was not saved by Vishnu in the form of a lion ( narsingh) because this story is a mere myth. How many myths are there in Gurbani? Such stories are not myths. At one time in history vishnu was an avtar blessed by AKal PUrakh, he received all powers from AKal Purakh but lost them when he started having people recite his name instead of GOds name. Again VIshnu was not God, he was never God, but did receive special powers from God. Refer to Bachitar Natak, and Gurmat Lekh by BHai Randhir singh ji.

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Kulbir SIngh Jeeo, nobody on this forum is claiming Idol Worship is permitted
in Gurmat, and most people agree Vaar 10 is an example showing child like
devotion is needed when doing Bhagti. The disagreement occurs with the story
of Bhagat Dhana Ji mentioned by Bhai Gurdas Ji. BHai Jasjit SIngh Ji is not the only
one guilty of making outrageous claims of this story. You too have made some claims without
providing any valid evidence. Here are some the quotes you have stated in regards to the Sakhi.
"Now in the light of the above Gurbani pankiti, which Gursikh has the courage to support idol worship or believe in the story of Dhanna Jatt? Siri Dashmesh jee clearly states in his baani that no one can get anything from a stone. Who should we believe? Siri Guru jee or mythology?"

Sukhdeep Singh jeeo, Bhai Vir Singh jee has also written that this story is a drishtaant and that Bhai Gurdaas jee is not writing history. I too have said this only. The problem we have with this Saakhi is that Dhanna Jat has been shown meeting Pratakh Gusaaeen i.e. Vaheguru through worshiping a pathar (stone). I have repeated many times that this is not possible and this is where I disagree. If we translate "Gusaaeen" as Vishnu, then it is fine.

I ask you a question. Who is Gusaaeen in this Pauri of Dhanna in Vaar 10 - Vaheguru or Vishnu?

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Next we will say Bhagat prahlad was not saved by Vishnu in the form of a lion ( narsingh) because this story is a mere myth. How many myths are there in Gurbani? Such stories are not myths. At one time in history vishnu was an avtar blessed by AKal PUrakh, he received all powers from AKal Purakh but lost them when he started having people recite his name instead of GOds name. Again VIshnu was not God, he was never God, but did receive special powers from God. Refer to Bachitar Natak, and Gurmat Lekh by BHai Randhir singh ji.

Don't try to speculate and put words in my mouth or state what I am going to do next. Rejection of one story does not mean that we are going to reject all stories.

Kulbir Singh

Kulbir Singh jeeo,

Vaar 10 is not stating Bhagat DHana received enlightenment by doing idol worship.
Vaar 10 is telling us that to please Waaheguru we need child like faith of Bhagat Dhanna JI.

How did Bhagat Dhanna Ji have child like faith? Bhagat dhanna Ji was desperate to meet God.
The way a child is desperate to reunite with his father. At the time the Bahmans were so called
experts on religion and a bahman told him to worship a stone. In wanting to please God and meet him he
did as told and was blessed because of his love for WaaheGuru. You and others on this forum are denying this story but accepting this story as an example which seems like a contradiction. If you are denying the facts of the story then you are denying that Bhgat Ji had child like faith. Because if these events didnt occur then how did he have child like faith? What events depict this innocence of bhagat ji? Why would BHai Gurdas Ji provide erroneous information in regards to the life of Bhagat ji? Please show me and tell me the so called real sakhi which depicts Bhagats Ji simple innocence.

"I ask you a question. Who is Gusaaeen in this Pauri of Dhanna in Vaar 10 - Vaheguru or Vishnu?"

Vishnu was made avtar by WaaheGuru. He was not Waaheguru, but through Waahegurus blessings/power he share the power and abilities of WaaheGuru. At one point there became no difference between the two , the difference emerged when Vishnu became egotistical and said he is the one and only WaaheGuru then he lost all powers. So Gusaaeen in this context can be understood as vishnu or WaaheGuru. Do you mean to tell me previous avtaar acquired no powers from WaaheGuru?

Now you answer my previous question which you previously avoided . Did Vishnu in the form of a Lion ( NarSIngh)
save Bhagat Prahlad. Or is this sakhi a mere myth as well? Before answering take into consideration this sakhi exist in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. In addition, this sakhi is mentioned by Bhai Randhir SIngh Ji as a factual event.

There are many mythological references in Gurbani. Those are true or not, we should not be bothered about that. We will never know it. No one will be ever sure on those. It will be personal perception always. Khalsa will not struggle to find its truthfulness. If those are true, it is OK. If not true, it is OK.

Our truth is much higher than the truthfulness of these stories. It is KHALSA style of WISDOM to not bother about that.

The present Sakhi, was our concern; because it is not mythology. Bhagat Dhana Ji and Bhai Gurdaas Ji are real characters of our history.

The discussion is finally approaching specific and serious concerns about the sakhi. Please do not discuss side-issues.

Bhai Gurdaas Ji has also discussed mythology in his Vaars. In Vaar 10, mythology is also there. Out of 23, many pauries are about mythological characters. (See above list by Chatrik Ji)

Possibly, though Bhagat Dhana Ji is a historical character, his story was narrated in this section (VAAR) because the author wants these stories to be read, in same mode, as used for reading mythological characters.

I am softening my stand now and am able to understand the true logic in the view point, I opposed.

The story is true or not, is not our concern, in this case also. It is open for the common sense of the reader. But the logic used to reject the story must be logical.

Sukhdeep Singh jeeo,

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Vaar 10 is not stating Bhagat DHana received enlightenment by doing idol worship.
Vaar 10 is telling us that to please Waaheguru we need child like faith of Bhagat Dhanna JI.

The Pauri says:

ਗੋਸਾਈ ਪਰਤਖਿ ਹੋਇ ਰੋਟੀ ਖਾਇ ਛਾਹਿ ਮੁਹਿ ਲਾਵੈ।
If you interpret the word ਗੋਸਾਈ as Vaheguru, then it means that Bhagat Dhanna jee received Darshan of Vaheguru through idol worship which is totally contrary to Gurmat.

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How did Bhagat Dhanna Ji have child like faith? Bhagat dhanna Ji was desperate to meet God.
The way a child is desperate to reunite with his father. At the time the Bahmans were so called
experts on religion and a bahman told him to worship a stone. In wanting to please God and meet him he
did as told and was blessed because of his love for WaaheGuru.

So you are saying that someone can be blessed (by Vaheguru) for worshiping a stone? Can you backup this claim through Gurbani?

By suggesting that one can be blessed through idol-worshiping, you are supporting idol-worshiping.

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"I ask you a question. Who is Gusaaeen in this Pauri of Dhanna in Vaar 10 - Vaheguru or Vishnu?"

Vishnu was made avtar by WaaheGuru. He was not Waaheguru, but through Waahegurus blessings/power he share the power and abilities of WaaheGuru. At one point there became no difference between the two , the difference emerged when Vishnu became egotistical and said he is the one and only WaaheGuru then he lost all powers. So Gusaaeen in this context can be understood as vishnu or WaaheGuru.

First of all Vishnu is not an Avtaar. The 24 Avtaars are Avtaars of Vishnu. Vishnu is one of the three sons (off-springs) of Maya namely - Vishnu, Brahma and Mahesh. Refer to this Pankiti: ਏਕਾ ਮਾਈ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਵਿਆਈ ਤਿਨਿ ਚੇਲੇ ਪਰਵਾਣੁ ॥ ਇਕੁ ਸੰਸਾਰੀ ਇਕੁ ਭੰਡਾਰੀ ਇਕੁ ਲਾਏ ਦੀਬਾਣੁ ॥

It is ridiculous to suggest that at one point there was no difference between Vishnu and Vaheguru. This is pure Hindu-vaad. Gurbani places even Gursikhs above Vishnu, Brahma and Mahesh and you are saying that there is no difference between Vaheguru and Vishnu. I can't believe what I am reading. The fact is that Vishnu has no idea who Vaheguru is. He never realized Vaheguru to begin with. Then how was he one with Vaheguru? Please show a Gurbani pramaan that says that Vaheguru and Vishnu are one or were ever one.

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Now you answer my previous question which you previously avoided . Did Vishnu in the form of a Lion ( NarSIngh)
save Bhagat Prahlad. Or is this sakhi a mere myth as well? Before answering take into consideration this sakhi exist in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. In addition, this sakhi is mentioned by Bhai Randhir SIngh Ji as a factual event.

Who can deny the Saakhi that Vaheguru created Narsingh Avtaar to save Bhagat Prahlaad? But why are you asking this question under this thread? What does it have to do with Dhanna Bhagat? It would be better for this thread, if you (and others) stay focussed on the Bhagat Dhanna jee and not invoke other Bhagats and topics.

Kulbir Singh

Wonderful thoughts Bhai MB Singh jeeo. True display of Gurmukhi character jeeo.

This is what Daas too wants to say that we need to focus on what the Drishtaant is preaching or teaching us. Why do we need to figure out if the Saakhi is true or not. The Saakhi is from Bhagat Dhanna jee's life prior to coming to Nirgun Pooja of Nirankaar jee.

Kulbir Singh

MB SINGH VEER JI,
WaaheGuru Sahib Ji has always find ways to save his Bhagats, and
put them on the path of true devotion. THere are many stories in Gurbani
and Gurmat literature ( Bhai Gurdas Jis vaars) which explain these stories.
Many people are claiming these stories as myths , so they must think WaaheGuru
saving Bhagats through various means as a myth as well.

Kindly read the article in which Bhai Randhir Singh Ji gives details on many stories
on how WaaheGuru Ji saved Bhagats and destroyed tyrants.

[www.dushtdaman.org]

Many people would claim such stories as myths but Bhai Randhir Singh ji has explain such
events have occured.

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Why do we need to figure out if the Saakhi is true or not. The Saakhi is from Bhagat Dhanna jee's life prior to coming to Nirgun Pooja of Nirankaar jee. Kulbir Singh

But those who are denying the Sakhi are more guilty of their adventure.

Kulbir Singh Jeeo,

You are interpreting Gurmat history through a black and white eye. We should not be so colorblind
when viewing history mentioned in Gurbani. God can do what he wants when he wants even if
it doesnt seem logical or doesnt fit to our frame of thinking.

Vishnu was an avtar. Krishna, and RamChander, NarSingh etc were avtaars of Vishnu. In Gurmat, Visnhu was just an avtar the same with Shiva who was just another avtaar . There have been countless avtaar sent by WaaheGuru. Narsingh was an avtar of vishnu thae same way Durga was an avtar of Shiva. According to GUrmat, Vishnu, Shiva, Krishna, etc were just avtaar sent to do worship but failed.
ਰਾਮ ਰਸੂਲ ਕਿਸ਼ਨ ਬਿਸ਼ਨਾਦਿਕ ਕਾਲ ਕ੍ਰਵਾਲਹਿ ਕੂਟੇ ॥ ਕੋਟ ਉਪਾਇ ਧਾਇ ਸਭ ਥਾਕੇ ਬਿਨ ਤਿਹ ਭਜਨ ਨ ਛੂਟੇ ॥੫॥੭੯॥
Ram, Muhammad, Krishna, Vishnu etc., All were destroyed by this sword of KAL; crores of measures, but without the devotion of One Lord, no one achieved redemption.5.79.

For further understanding refer to Bachitar natak.

Kulbir SIngh jeeo, I have fully answered your queston while you have not explained the question I pose.
Since you believe in Bhagat Prhalad sakhi then you must believe vishnu who was given power by WaaheGuru saved
Bhagat Prahlad JI . If you do not believe this then explain the details. If you do believe this then why cant Bhagat Dhanna ji be saved by Gusaaeeen ( Vishnu through power of WaaheGUru)?

THis question related to the topic being discussed because the sakhi of Narsingh is mentioned in both Bhai Gurdas Jis vaar and Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Many people on this forum are stating stories mentioned in bhai gurdas jis vaaran are mere myths. So explain to me Bhagat Prahlad sakhi, and why this is not a myth , but Bhagat Dhanna ji sakhi is a myth.

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By suggesting that one can be blessed through idol-worshiping, you are supporting idol-worshiping.

It is wrong way of presenting a logic. If Canada allowed immigrants without Visas at one stage of history, it does not mean it is true by rule. Visa is must. If I tell you that one blessed soul used to drink tea, that does not mean I am suggesting and promoting tea.

Moreover, having a miracle happened to Bhagat Dhana Ji, should not be termed as "Blessing through Idol Worshiping".

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MB Singh
Moreover, having a miracle happened to Bhagat Dhana Ji, should not be termed as "Blessing through Idol Worshiping".

But may I ask you from where in Gurbani is this theory or concept supported? If this is so, then it could also be concluded "some blessed souls" have no need to take Amrit, because "these are special cases, that do not occur to all". If the 10th Master Satguru Siri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib jee Maharaj chakked Amrit, while still being the Guru, does this not implement the idea that nobody is above the Hukam. This is the "rule of law" for the Khalsa.

Sukhdeep Singh jeeo

You wrote that at one point there was no difference between Vaheguru and Vishnu. Here is your quote:

He was not Waaheguru, but through Waahegurus blessings/power he share the power and abilities of WaaheGuru. At one point there became no difference between the two , the difference emerged when Vishnu became egotistical and said he is the one and only WaaheGuru then he lost all powers. So Gusaaeen in this context can be understood as vishnu or WaaheGuru.

Kindly give us a Gurbani quote that says that Vaheguru and Vishnu were one at any time. The truth of the matter is that Vishnu was never one with Vaheguru and has no knowledge of Vaheguru.,

Please clarify who gave Darshan to Dhanna jee - Vaheguru or Vishnu? If it was Vaheguru, then kindly explain how did this happen through stone worship and without Satnaam? How did Dhanna jee get Darshan of Vaheguru by worshiping a stone when Gurbani is totally against it?

If you accept that he got Darshan of Vishnu, then I have no qualms. We don't need to do any more Vichaar then.

You claim that at one point Vishnu and Vaheguru were one. Could you give a Gurbani Pankiti to backup this claim?

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You are interpreting Gurmat history through a black and white eye. We should not be so colorblind
when viewing history mentioned in Gurbani. God can do what he wants when he wants even if
it doesnt seem logical or doesnt fit to our frame of thinking.

Who is doubting Gurbani here? Who is being colour-blind when viewing history mentioned in Gurbani? Sure God can do what he wants to do but Gurbani is God Himself and God's will is not contrary to Gurbani. If Gurbani says that stone worship cannot bring Vaheguru jee's Darshan then this is an eternal Truth. There can be no exception.

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Vishnu was an avtar. Krishna, and RamChander, NarSingh etc were avtaars of Vishnu.

Siri Krishna and Ram Chander jee were Avtaars of Vishnu - Agreed - but whose Avtaar was or is Vishnu? I think you are using an incorrect adjective with Vishnu. Vishnu is not an Avtaar of anyone.

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Since you believe in Bhagat Prhalad sakhi then you must believe vishnu who was given power by WaaheGuru saved
Bhagat Prahlad JI . If you do not believe this then explain the details. If you do believe this then why cant Bhagat Dhanna ji be saved by Gusaaeeen ( Vishnu through power of WaaheGUru)?

Then please simply accept that Dhanna jee had Darshan of an inferior Diety - Vishnu - through worship of a stone and not of Vaheguru. Vaheguru jee's Darshan is impossible through stone worship as per Gurbani. Period.

Kulbir Singh

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Moreover, having a miracle happened to Bhagat Dhana Ji, should not be termed as "Blessing through Idol Worshiping".

MB Singh jeeo, Please show us a Gurbani Pankiti that says that through stone-worship a miracle to Bhagat Dhanna happened and he got Darshan of Pratakh Gusaaeen. Gurbani at many many places makes it clear that ones who do idol worship or stone worship can never achieve anything related to Vaheguru. I am surprised at how we are dismissing Gurbani Hukams so easily.

Kulbir Singh

> Sukhdeep Singh jeeo

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kulbir singh
>
> You wrote that at one point there was no
> difference between Vaheguru and Vishnu. Here is
> your quote:
>
> He was not Waaheguru, but through Waahegurus
> blessings/power he share the power and abilities
> of WaaheGuru. At one point there became no
> difference between the two , the difference
> emerged when Vishnu became egotistical and said he
> is the one and only WaaheGuru then he lost all
> powers. So Gusaaeen in this context can be
> understood as vishnu or WaaheGuru.
>
> Kindly give us a Gurbani quote that says that
> Vaheguru and Vishnu were one at any time. The
> truth of the matter is that Vishnu was never one
> with Vaheguru and has no knowledge of Vaheguru.,

>

Throughout history WaaheGuru has saved his Bhagats using the bodies
of numerous Avtaars. These avtaars were never WaaheGuru but were working
under Waaheguru. Hence, there became no difference between the two as WaaheGuru
was working under them. Take the following pangti into consideration

ਹਰਣਾਖਸੁ ਦੁਸਟੁ ਹਰਿ ਮਾਰਿਆ ਪ੍ਰਹਲਾਦੁ ਤਰਾਇਆ ॥

We all know through oral tradition how Bhagat Prhalad was saved. He was saved from narsingh ( vishnu) at
that point there was no difference between vishnu and Waaheguru. Take a look at what Bhai Randhir SIngh Ji has
said about Bhagat Prahlad Sakhi

ਸੋ ਇਸ ਹੰਕਾਰੀ ਦੇ ਦਮਨ ਨਮਿਤ, ਪ੍ਰਮਾਤਮ-ਭਗਤ-ਵਡਿਆਈ ਦੀ ਪੈਜ ਸੰਵਾਰਨ ਨਮਿਤ ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ਸਰਬ ਸ਼ਕਤੀਮਾਨ ਨੇ ਆਪਣੀ ਅਗਾਧ ਕਲਾ ਵਰਤਾ ਕੇ ਨਰ-ਸਿੰਘ ਦਾ ਰੂਪ ਰਚਾਇਆ ਤੇ ਉਸ ਨਰ-ਸਿੰਘ ਰੂਪ ਵਿਚ ਆਪਣੀ ਸ਼ਕਤਿ-ਕਲਾ ਵਰਤਾ ਕੇ ਹਰਨਾਖਸ਼ ਦੁਸ਼ਟ ਦਾ ਖੈ ਕੀਤਾ ਅਤੇ ਭਗਤ ਪ੍ਰਹਿਲਾਦ ਦੀ ਰਖਿਆ ਕੀਤੀ।ਇਸ ਬਿਧਿ ਭਾਉ-ਭਗਤ ਵਡਿਆਈ ਦੀ ਪੈਜ ਸੰਵਾਰੀ। ਇਸ ਬਿਧਿ ਸੋਧ ਸੁਧਾਈ ਕਰ ਕੇ ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਨੇ ਨਰ-ਸਿੰਘ ਦਾ ਰੂਪ ਨਿਵਾਰਨ ਕਰਿ ਆਪਣੀ ਕਲਾ ਖਿੱਚ ਲਈ ਅਤੇ ਨਰ-ਸਿੰਘ ਰੂਪ (ਅਲੋਪ) ਹੋ ਗਿਆ। - GUrmat Lekh

From these writings it is evident that Sri Akal Purakh who is nirankar ( formless) goes into the bodies of numerous avtaars to accomplish his works; hence at this point there becomes no difference between the avtaar and Sri Akal Purakh. Are you denying this?

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Kulbir Singh
Please clarify who gave Darshan to Dhanna jee -
> Vaheguru or Vishnu? If it was Vaheguru, then
> kindly explain how did this happen through stone
> worship and without Satnaam? How did Dhanna jee
> get Darshan of Vaheguru by worshiping a stone when
> Gurbani is totally against it?

If you dont believe in Sakhi of bhagat Dhanna ji because such miracles are not
permitted in Gurbani then kindly explain to me the miracle of Ganika and the prostitute.
Where in Gurbani does it say one can get mukhti from reciting Raam Raam through the assistance
of a Parrot. You previously stated that this sakhi is real, but then you state mukhti is only in accordance to what is mentioned
in Gurbani. So please explain how Ganika received mukhti.

Also you still have not answered my question about Bhagat Prahlad Sakhi? Who saved bhagat ji, and how was he saved. Since you are claiming that Vishnu was never one with WaaheGuru

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Kulbir Singh
The truth of the matter is that Vishnu was never one
with Vaheguru and has no knowledge of Vaheguru

then kindly explain to me how Bhagat Ji was saved or is this sakhi to a myth along with character narsingh?

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Throughout history WaaheGuru has saved his Bhagats using the bodies
of numerous Avtaars. These avtaars were never WaaheGuru but were working
under Waaheguru. Hence, there became no difference between the two as WaaheGuru
was working under them. Take the following pangti into consideration

This is a strange logic that since Vaheguru is working through the Avtaars, so there is no difference between the Avtaars and Vaheguru. If we use this logic then we will also have to believe that there is no difference between Babar (the first Mughal king) and Vaheguru because Gurbani says that Vaheguru empowered Babur and sent him to Hindustan to punish the sinning Hindustanis.

Secondly you still have not acknowledged that Vishnu was not anyone's Avtaar, therefore, your logic that there is no difference between Vaheguru and Avtaars does not hold.

You have quoted Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh jee:

ਸੋ ਇਸ ਹੰਕਾਰੀ ਦੇ ਦਮਨ ਨਮਿਤ, ਪ੍ਰਮਾਤਮ-ਭਗਤ-ਵਡਿਆਈ ਦੀ ਪੈਜ ਸੰਵਾਰਨ ਨਮਿਤ ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ਸਰਬ ਸ਼ਕਤੀਮਾਨ ਨੇ ਆਪਣੀ ਅਗਾਧ ਕਲਾ ਵਰਤਾ ਕੇ ਨਰ-ਸਿੰਘ ਦਾ ਰੂਪ ਰਚਾਇਆ ਤੇ ਉਸ ਨਰ-ਸਿੰਘ ਰੂਪ ਵਿਚ ਆਪਣੀ ਸ਼ਕਤਿ-ਕਲਾ ਵਰਤਾ ਕੇ ਹਰਨਾਖਸ਼ ਦੁਸ਼ਟ ਦਾ ਖੈ ਕੀਤਾ ਅਤੇ ਭਗਤ ਪ੍ਰਹਿਲਾਦ ਦੀ ਰਖਿਆ ਕੀਤੀ।ਇਸ ਬਿਧਿ ਭਾਉ-ਭਗਤ ਵਡਿਆਈ ਦੀ ਪੈਜ ਸੰਵਾਰੀ। ਇਸ ਬਿਧਿ ਸੋਧ ਸੁਧਾਈ ਕਰ ਕੇ ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਨੇ ਨਰ-ਸਿੰਘ ਦਾ ਰੂਪ ਨਿਵਾਰਨ ਕਰਿ ਆਪਣੀ ਕਲਾ ਖਿੱਚ ਲਈ ਅਤੇ ਨਰ-ਸਿੰਘ ਰੂਪ (ਅਲੋਪ) ਹੋ ਗਿਆ।

But where does Bhai Sahib say in the above quote that there is no difference between Vaheguru and Vishnu? Rather Bhai Sahib's quote above only proves the powerlessness of the Avtaars and that Vaheguru created them and then pulled his power and made them disappear. Sure, all the power of the powerful Narsingh Avtaar was that of Vaheguru but nowhere Gurbani teaches us to worship the Avtaars.

You say that there is no difference between Vishnu and Vaheguru, then by this logic it should be fine to worship Vishnu too (since as per you, there is no difference between Vishnu and Vaheguru). No wonder so many Sikhs today can be seen in Mandirs worshiping inferior deities like Siri Krishna, Durga, Rama and Mahesh.

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From these writings it is evident that Sri Akal Purakh who is nirankar ( formless) goes into the bodies of numerous avtaars to accomplish his works; hence at this point there becomes no difference between the avtaar and Sri Akal Purakh. Are you denying this?

Of course I am denying this anti-Gurmat stance that at any point there can be no difference between an Avtaar and Vaheguru. Vaheguru works through Avtaars but then he alone is working through everyone and he alone also empowered Babur. Just because Vaheguru works through Avtaars does not mean that we can worship Avtaars. This is what Sanatan minded Sikhs also believe. This is Hindu influence on Sikhs. Such anti-Gurmat, Brahmanvaad has no place in Sikhi.

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If you dont believe in Sakhi of bhagat Dhanna ji because such miracles are not
permitted in Gurbani then kindly explain to me the miracle of Ganika and the prostitute.

Sukhdeep Singh jeeo, where did I say that I don't believe in miracles? What I said was that no one can attain Vaheguru through Pathar pooja and such miracle has no place in Sikhi.

Ganika's miracle occurred because she chanted a Kirtam Naam unlike worshiping a stone which is even worse than paganism.

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Where in Gurbani does it say one can get mukhti from reciting Raam Raam through the assistance
of a Parrot. You previously stated that this sakhi is real, but then you state mukhti is only in accordance to what is mentioned
in Gurbani. So please explain how Ganika received mukhti.

But who says that Ganika attained Gurmat Mukti i.e. residence in Sachkhand. Bhai Sahib has written that there are different kinds of Udhaar. For a diseased person it is a form of Udhaar or Mukti to become free of that disease. She got Mukti from her sinful life and was saved from the punishment of Jamdoots. She did not get Gurmat Mukti which means Darshan of Nirgun Vaheguru and access to Sachkhand. Sure, in her subsequent lives she may have been delivered fully in Gurmat way.

Kulbir Singh

Moreover, having a miracle happened to Bhagat Dhana Ji, should not be termed as "Blessing through Idol Worshiping".

Veer Kulbir Singh Ji, in response to above lines said by me you have stated that, "MB Singh jeeo, Please show us a Gurbani Pankiti that says that through stone-worship a miracle to Bhagat Dhanna happened"

There is something wrong in understanding each other. I agree with you that "Stone worship" is of no use. So, you will not expect me to show you any Gurbani in support of that. OK.

What I said, is that if anything happened with Bhagat Ji, it should not (repeat should not) be termed as BLESSING Through IDOL WORSHIP. It was blessing of Akal Purakh Himself. This is almost same what you are saying that IDOL WORSHIP leads one nowhere.

If you still think that Bhagat Ji worshiped the stone, then you are justified to say that this sakhi is against Gurmat Principles. My contention was that though THE STONE IS THERE IN FRONT of Bhagat Ji, He did not worship it. Bhagat Ji was not a regular/professional/dead-soul worshiper like Brahmin.

I am really sorry Veer Ji for having continued with this topic. Kindly forgive my follies.

Veer JaspretSingh Ji, probably, you also could not understand me. How could I dare to say, Amrit and Gurmat Rehat is an optional thing. Blessed souls are those souls, which are born in the "House of Guru Nanak "and have opportunity to take KHADE KI POHUL. Am I right? But I do not know, how we define Blessed Souls, which were born before 1469 AD. I called Bhagat Dhana Ji a blessed soul, because-------------you know why. So, by the way when Guru Sahib says, HAR JUG JUG BHAGAT UPAYA, can not we call those Bhagats, blessed souls. I doubt, if I was able to understand your question. Please forgive me, if I am still unclear or vague.

Vishnu was made avtar by WaaheGuru. He was not Waaheguru, but through Waahegurus blessings/power he share the power and abilities of WaaheGuru. At one point there became no difference between the two ,



Sukhdeep Singh,


Sorry to ask, Are you a SIKH ?? AMRITDHARI ??

"kishan bishan kabhun nah dhyaun,kan sune pehchan nati son"