ਧੰਨਾ ਜਟ ਤੇ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣ ਕਹਾਣੀ ??

1.Let's all re-look at the kabit by Bhai Gurdass Jee in Gurmukhi:

ਬਾਮ੍ਹਣ ਪੂਜੈ ਦੇਵਤੇ ਧੰਨਾ ਗਊ ਚਰਾਵਣਿ ਆਵੈ|| <-------The term ਦੇਵਤੇ is clearly used for Hindu idols .

ਧੰਨੈ ਡਿਠਾ ਚਲਿਤੁ ਏਹੁ ਪੂਛੈ ਬਾਮ੍ਹਣੁ ਆਖਿ ਸੁਣਾਵੈ||

ਠਾਕੁਰ ਦੀ ਸੇਵਾ ਕਰੈ ਜੋ ਇਛੈ ਸੋਈ ਫਲੁ ਪਾਵੈ||

ਧੰਨਾ ਕਰਦਾ ਜੋਦੜੀ ਮੈ ਭਿ ਦੇਹ ਇਕ ਜੇ ਤੁਧੁ ਭਾਵੈ||

ਪਥਰੁ ਇਕ ਲਪੇਟਿ ਕਰਿ ਦੇ ਧੰਨੈ ਨੋ ਗੈਲ ਛੁਡਾਵੈ|| <--- Bahman fools Dhanna for innocent devotion. Please note it's a ਪਥਰੁ not a deity's idol as initially suggested by Veer Balraj Singh.

ਠਾਕੁਰ ਨੋ ਨ੍ਹਾਵਾਲਿ ਕੈ ਛਾਹਿ ਰੋਟੀ ਲੈ ਭੋਗੁ ਚੜ੍ਹਾਵੈ||

ਹਥਿ ਜੋੜਿ ਮਿਨਤਿ ਕਰੈ ਪੈਰੀ ਪੈ ਪੈ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਮਨਾਵੈ||

ਹਉ ਬੀ ਮੁਹੁ ਨ ਜੁਠਾਲਸਾਂ ਤੂ ਰੁਠਾ ਮੈ ਕਿਹੁ ਨ ਸੁਖਾਵੈ||

ਗੋਸਾਈ ਪਰਤਖਿ ਹੋਇ ਰੋਟੀ ਖਾਹਿ ਛਾਹਿ ਮੁਹਿ ਲਾਵੈ||

ਭੋਲਾ ਭਾਉ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਮਿਲਾਵੈ ||੧੩||

Take note Bhai Sahib uses the term ਗੋਸਾਈ & ਗੋਬਿੰਦ for Vahiguroo. It's clearly established Bhagat Dhanna jee's intentions were genuinely towards God, though the understanding was not there as per Gurmat(Guru Akal Purkh's wisdom which he received later in sangat of Ramanand).

Quote
Balraj Singh
The question in this thread is how DHANNA JI got his ਗੋਸਾਈਆਂ (Vaheguru), the Bani Shabads mentioned above doesnt keep in line with the VIDHI mentioned in this VAAR.
they didn't recieve the avastha of what gurbani considers the ultimate state of brahm gyaan.
So isnt the Avastha of the meeting ਗੋਸਾਈਆਂ (Vaheguru) still above this ?

It is evident from the kabit, Bhagat jee only received Sargun darshan(as he wished/desired) for Vahiguroo to eat his bread and buttermilk. Not Nirgun Darshan(true darshan) which causes one to have Jyot Vigaas and reach the ultimate state of Brahmgyan.

As Chatrik has said before, this was the beginning.

The fact that you came up with the title "ਧੰਨਾ ਜਟ ਤੇ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣ ਦੀ ਮਨ ਘੜਤ ਕਹਾਣੀ ", clearly show you didn't research this story well other than the Gurbani shabads you have quoted.

2.

Quote
Hau Vari Vanjhan
Would you kindly summarize how and where did Bhagat Dhana ji learn to do Bhagti?

By the implemention you're making or suggesting, you basically mean to say that Bhagat Dhana ji somehow magically learnt Naam and became a Bhagat suddenly, without the True Guru. How? Will Sharda alone create a path for you to Sachkhand? Also, there is nothing in the stone to worship, so would Bhagat Dhana ji see some spiritual wisdom in it? Kindly answer these questions.

After Sargun darshan Dhanna's spiritual life must have began. Now this shabad, which many here claim as the 'actual' beginning:

ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥
ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਸੰਗਿ ਨਾਮਦੇਉ ਮਨੁ ਲੀਣਾ ॥
ਆਢ ਦਾਮ ਕੋ ਛੀਪਰੋ ਹੋਇਓ ਲਾਖੀਣਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
ਬੁਨਨਾ ਤਨਨਾ ਤਿਆਗਿ ਕੈ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਚਰਨ ਕਬੀਰਾ ॥
ਨੀਚ ਕੁਲਾ ਜੋਲਾਹਰਾ ਭਇਓ ਗੁਨੀਯ ਗਹੀਰਾ ॥੧॥
ਰਵਿਦਾਸੁ ਢੁਵੰਤਾ ਢੋਰ ਨੀਤਿ ਤਿਨਿ ਤਿਆਗੀ ਮਾਇਆ ॥
ਪਰਗਟੁ ਹੋਆ ਸਾਧਸੰਗਿ ਹਰਿ ਦਰਸਨੁ ਪਾਇਆ ॥੨॥
ਸੈਨੁ ਨਾਈ ਬੁਤਕਾਰੀਆ ਓਹੁ ਘਰਿ ਘਰਿ ਸੁਨਿਆ ॥
ਹਿਰਦੇ ਵਸਿਆ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਭਗਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਗਨਿਆ ॥੩॥
ਇਹ ਬਿਧਿ ਸੁਨਿ ਕੈ ਜਾਟਰੋ ਉਠਿ ਭਗਤੀ ਲਾਗਾ ॥
ਮਿਲੇ ਪ੍ਰਤਖਿ ਗੁਸਾਈਆ ਧੰਨਾ ਵਡਭਾਗਾ ॥੪॥੨॥ Panna 487
With the exception of Naam Dev jee who lived 2 centuries earlier .
Kabeer, Ravidass & Sain mentioned in the shabad were all disciples of Bhagat Ramanand . Bhagat Dhanna jee was in fact Ramanand's disciple too . It's pretty obvious Dhanna would have been inspired to do bhagti of Naam , when he joined such Sadhsangat after the Stone Sakhi.
The probability is high that the Stone story occurred before this because after doing sangat of Bhagats who japped kirtam Naam, He would not have been deceived by the Bahman.
At the end of the shabad it say, "ਮਿਲੇ ਪ੍ਰਤਖਿ ਗੁਸਾਈਆ ਧੰਨਾ ਵਡਭਾਗਾ ॥੪॥੨॥" . Which clearly indicate He received Nirgun Darshan.


3.

Quote
Bh. Kulbir Singh
Bhai Gurdaas jee was fully adept in Gurmat. He knew very well that by worshiping a stone one cannot reach Vaheguru. He is just using the existing and famous story to highlight the Gurmat principle. Gurmat does not agree with this story.

Vaar 10 does not contain historical facts.

If we think from this point of view. Bhai Gurdass jee writes a story so contradicting to Tat Gurmat(the stone story, which many see it in that way) to make a Gurmat point of "ਭੋਲਾ ਭਾਉ ਗੋਬਿੰਦੁ ਮਿਲਾਵੈ" .
Why would Bhai Sahib do/write something which contradicts Gurmat in the first place?
We are also forgetting Guru Arjan Dev Sahib jee himself approved Bhai Sahib's Varaan.

Singh jee, Guru Arjan Dev Sahib jee himself says about Bhagat Dhanna on Ang 1192:

ਧੰਨੈ ਸੇਵਿਆ ਬਾਲ ਬੁਧਿ ||
Dhanna served Vahiguroo, with the innocence of a child.

If this doesn't correlate with what Bhai Gurdass jee has narrated in his Varaan( ਭੋਲਾ ਭਾਉ ਗੋਬਿੰਦੁ ਮਿਲਾਵੈ ), then what is the actual story then?

Chota veer

Veerji Ji,




I dont think we need to look at anything else after reading the Gurbani but for at the same time for sure Bhai Sahibs Vaaran are the Kunji to Guru Granth Sahib.



How do you explain the Vaar ?


Bhai Gurdas Jis’ Vaar 19 Pauri 6

Diwali Di Raat Devey Baliyan
Tarey Jaat Sanat Ambar Bhaliyan
Phula Di Bagat Chun Chun Chaliyan
Tirath Jati Jat Nain Nihaliyan
Har Chandauri Jhat Vasaye Uchaliyan
Gurmukh Sukh Ful Daat Sabad Smaliyan




Isnt the advise to Gurmukhs for the Diwali Night in the last line ?

Balraj Singh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Veerji Ji,
>
>
>
>
> I dont think we need to look at anything else
> after reading the Gurbani but for at the same time
> for sure Bhai Sahibs Vaaran are the Kunji to Guru
> Granth Sahib.
>
>
>
> How do you explain the Vaar ?
>
>
> Bhai Gurdas Jis’ Vaar 19 Pauri 6
>
> Diwali Di Raat Devey Baliyan
> Tarey Jaat Sanat Ambar Bhaliyan
> Phula Di Bagat Chun Chun Chaliyan
> Tirath Jati Jat Nain Nihaliyan
> Har Chandauri Jhat Vasaye Uchaliyan
> Gurmukh Sukh Ful Daat Sabad Smaliyan
>
>
>
>
> Isnt the advise to Gurmukhs for the Diwali Night
> in the last line ?


This var talks about what people do on diwali night and what a gurmukh should do in the end. But how does this suggests that anything that is written in first 4-5 lines are false. Bhai sahib gives the example of what people do and in the last line is the MORAL of the story that what Gursikh should do.

In vaar about Bhagat Dhanna Ji Bhai Gurdas Ji has written the story of how Dhanna ji was given the stone and what happened and last line gives the MORAL of story that Akal Purakh can't be found by chatrayi or syaanap like baahman but by bhola bhao like Bhagat Dhanna Ji.

ੴਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫ਼ਤਹ॥

Piyasi Chatrik jio,

I admire you for your innocent analysis but again it showed vaar did not say what you analyzed that first Bhagat Dhanna jee did Bhagti of stone and then later on upon meeting Bhagat Ramanand jee he started the Bhagti of Vaheguru. If vaar specified both instances of Bhagat Dhanna Jee’s life then there would be no confusion about the facts but as there is no mentioning of such info in said vaar and it concludes that Bhagat Dhanna had darshan of Paramatma after stone worship it is not meeting to facts of Gurbani. In the contrast where as from Gurbani shabads above it is mentioned that stone worship is worthless no matter how one does it ਜੋ ਪਾਥਰ ਕੀ ਪਾਂਈ ਪਾਇ ॥ ਤਿਸ ਕੀ ਘਾਲ ਅਜਾਂਈ ਜਾਇ ॥੧॥ If Guru Sahib had mentioned that if one does Bhagti of stone with sharda or Bholla Bhau then that Bhagti would be worth some thing, however, no such thing is mentioned in fact Guru Sahib said ਨ ਪਾਥਰੁ ਬੋਲੈ ਨਾ ਕਿਛੁ ਦੇਇ ॥ ਫੋਕਟ ਕਰਮ ਨਿਹਫਲ ਹੈ ਸੇਵ ॥੨॥ How one can think against what Guru Sahib have said.

Secondly, Bhagat Dhanna jee was inspired by the Jeevanees of all other Bhagats who were of lower castes than him ਇਹ ਬਿਧਿ ਸੁਨਿ ਕੈ ਜਾਟਰੋ ਉਠਿ ਭਗਤੀ ਲਾਗਾ ॥ ਮਿਲੇ ਪ੍ਰਤਖਿ ਗੁਸਾਈਆ ਧੰਨਾ ਵਡਭਾਗਾ ॥੪॥੨॥ In above Gurbani there is no mentioning that Bhagat Dhanna jee did stone worship before. Hence, in the absence of this story of stone worship from Gurbani it is very clear that Bhagat Dhanna Jee achieved the state of Sachkhand avastha by having Bhagti of Vaheguru jee i.e. Satnaam.

Bhai Akaal74 jio, you wrote

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If this story is by some lotu potu bahman its amazing that gursikhs of the highest avastha like BHai Gurdas Ji would even consider making it a parmaan in his writings.

but now your story says

Quote

Baahman was lying as he had not received anything sitting infront of the stones. But because Dhanna ji was very innocent he initially believed the false story by baahman. He asked the baaham if he will lend his stone thakur to Dhanna ji. Baahman exchanged the stone in return for a cow from Dhanna ji. Baahman went home laughing that I have made a fool of Dhanna ji. By giving him a stone which is worthless I have managed to get a cow.

You story clearly proves that the Brahmin was lotu and Petu. Too much contradiction is going around. Your story does not even match with vaar under consideration. Vaar did not mention that at all, hence why one should believe stone story? Again daas is not challenging the vaar but as I said earlier more research is needed on this vaar but in the light of Gurbani why we have to believe stone story why not in what Guru Sahib have mentioned?

In the end of the day Jeevani of Bhagat Dhanna is the light house for all of us no matter how he entered to house of Guru Sahib. He is enshrined in our living Guru Granth Sahib Jee and our rom-rom is in debt of Guru Sahib and His Bhagats and His Sikhs.

With Regards,
Daas

This is very interesting. Many missionaries and Kala-Afghanis have already rejected Bhagat Bani in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and the divinity of the Bhagats, and now we seem to on the verge of rejecting the sakhees that are the basis of the life of those same Bhagats.

I don't think anyone on this forum was physically or spiritually present when the events regarding Bhagat Dhanna Jee occurred - but we all seem to be acting like expert historians and scholars.

There seems to be a knee-jerk reaction these days to reject every other sakhee we hear, just because they do not "jive" with our modern logic oriented budhees.

Bhai Lehna Ji (Guru Angad Dev Sahib) is said to have worshiped a devi before meeting Guru Nanak Sahib Ji. We will now reject this sakhee also?

If not, what is so wrong with Bhagat Dhana Jee's sakhi? Why could not Bhagat jee's sharda have been built upon this way?

Gurbani and Bhai Sahib Ji's Vaars are full of examples of devotion of the Bhagat from various yugs.
Bhagat Sudhama's devotion to Krishan is routinely mentioned in Gurbani.

How many of us can testify that we have experienced the same commitment and devotion towards our Guru Sahib as Bhagat Sudhama did towards Krishan Ji? If not, who are we to judge the validity of these puratan sakhees.

Let's be careful, where we tread.

ਝੂਠੀ ਮਨ ਕੀ ਮਤਿ ਹੈ ਕਰਣੀ ਬਾਦਿ ਬਿਬਾਦੁ ॥

Piare Veer Navjot Singh ji,


I think this thread has been taken in wrong spirit. No one is rejecting the Vaars by Gurdass ji(and none infact can) or nonone is rejecting the Bhagats bani . The question raised was regarding a little difference seen in the Guru Granth's Bani and the known Sakhi. The thread was more of for discussion where all this leads to ?

There is lot of difference in the Bhai Lehna ji's Worship and Bhagat Dhanna ji's Sakhi. There is no saying of getting the ਗੋਬਿੰਦੁ with this devotion or Pooja of devi Pooja. Clearly all kirpa happened once Bhai Lehna ji came to Guru Ji's Sharan. On the other side the Sakhi of Bhagat Dhanna ji go as far getting the ultimate results of meeting the ਗੋਸਾਈਆਂ with the Murti Pooja which seems to out of sync with the lines in the Shabad and thus the Gurmat Principle.


ਜੋਤਿ ਸਮਾਇ ਸਮਾਨੀ ਜਾ ਕੈ ਅਛਲੀ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਪਹਿਚਾਨਿਆ ॥
ਧੰਨੈ ਧਨੁ ਪਾਇਆ ਧਰਣੀਧਰੁ ਮਿਲਿ ਜਨ ਸੰਤ ਸਮਾਨਿਆ ॥੪॥੧॥


Again, None is questioning Bhai Gurdas ji LIKHTs, Everything is understood well if we stick with the explanation by Bhai Kulbir Singh above that - These Vaars are the Parchalit Sakhis of the time and the Gurmat Thought/Advise/principle is given in the last line.

Navjot singh Jio,

Please bring contents to the subject in the light of Gurbani. Name callings and speculations are very easy to say. I would request admin that this topic is been discussed without any tension and without any curse. Posts with content to subject such as the one posted by Chatrik Jee and Akaal74 Jee should be allowed any other type of posts should be disallowed otherwise no point of discussing such highly deserved Gurmat related discussions openly.

With Regards,
Jasjit Singh

Would you kindly summarize how and where did Bhagat Dhana ji learn to do Bhagti? What is your definition of Bhagti? Exactly what do you mean when you say " And for Bhagats like Dhana Ji, the stone after that incident was a useless piece of rock. He was very much busy with his GOD and His Worship (BHAGATI)."? If this is so, we can assume Bhagti is readily available to all without any cost, cost meaning having to give your head for Guru Sahib. Of course Bhagti is available to all, but only those that qualify to do HIS Bhagti meet the Satguru and receive Naam. That is true Bhagti. By the implementation you're making or suggesting, you basically mean to say that Bhagat Dhana ji somehow magically learnt Naam and became a Bhagat suddenly, without the True Guru. How? Will Sharda alone create a path for you to Sachkhand? Also, there is nothing in the stone to worship, so would Bhagat Dhana ji see some spiritual wisdom in it? Kindly answer these questions. Thank you.

The above para is of "Haun Vaari Vanjan" Veer Ji.

Veer Ji have thrown so many questions about spirituality and Bhagati. Those are really baffling for me. I am not an expert on all this stuff.

All I wanted to say is, that this was beginning. Everybody knows and agrees that Bhagat Dhana Ji was a Bhagat. Guru has testified it through Gurbani. You also agree on it. So it is not my burden to prove that how Bhagat Dhana Ji got Naam or not/Sachkhand or Not. I only know that his beginning was wonderful.

Chatrik Veer ji, Akall74 Veer Ji and now Navjot Singh Veer Ji, all have very systematically answered the concerns raised on this sakhi. There is nothing more which I can add to it.

Bhai Jasjit Singh Ji,

It seems as if my post has offended you for some reason, and your request to Admin for not allowing such future posts is fine by me. In fact, I request the admins to delete my previous post and not approve this one, if it so offensive to the readers of this forum.

You also stated: "Name callings and speculations are very easy to say. I would request admin that this topic is been discussed without any tension and without any curse."

I find it ironic that on this forum, it is totally valid to question the validity of puratan sakhees, Khalsa Panth's sacred symbols and shashtars such as Chand-Torrahs, and openly state that Bhai Gurdas Ji's vars are not historically accurate even when they refer to historical figures, BUT is NOT OK to question the skeptics? If someone does, then they are labeled name callers and speculators.

How dare if someone questions the skeptic - yet the skeptic is free to question everything he wants.

Take a moment and see where this thread is heading. Listen to the misinterpretations of Veer Bhupinder, Ghagga, Dhunda, Jachak, Spoeksman, etc. and you will find the same type of skepticism and many important concepts and references in Gurbani are simply dismissed by calling them symbolic, metaphors, allegories, and analogies.

While it is true that Bhai Kulbir Singh Ji has not dismissed the validity of Bhai Gurdas Ji's 10th Vaar, yet he has taken the liberty of calling it historically inaccurate. There is no doubt that allegories and metaphors are used heavily by Bhai Gurdas Ji, and in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and in Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji, but when historical personalities and events are mentioned they are generally a direct reference to them or their CREATOR. How can we blindly call that historically inaccurate?

I think I have expressed my concerns, I have no interest in debating with anyone you, carry on...if you like.

- Navjot Singh

Quote

While it is true that Bhai Kulbir Singh Ji has not dismissed the validity of Bhai Gurdas Ji's 10th Vaar, yet he has taken the liberty of calling it historically inaccurate

Bhai Navjot Singh jeeo, what I said was that "Vaar 10 does not contain historical facts." which means that this Vaar is not stating history but contains metaphors and Drishtaant. What is wrong with this stance? Vaar 10 does not contain Saakhis related to Guru ghar. These are Saakhis from Aan-matt. Bhai Sahib has just used some of these Saakhis to make a Gurmat point. The last Pankiti of these pauris is Gurmat Sidhaant.

To equate not believing in such Saakhis as joining the ranks of Kala Afghana is fetching it too far.

To believe that someone can attain Vaheguru through worshiping a stone is totally and grossly against Gurbani. I have previously quoted Siri Dasmesh jee's Baani to prove that no one can attain Vaheguru through Pathar-pooja.

When Siri Guru Arjun Dev jee has clearly stated that Jaatro Dhanna attained Vaheguru through Sadh-sang, and he was inspired by the famous Bhagats like Bhagat Kabir jee, Bhagat Ravidaas jee, Bhagat Naamdev jee and Bhagat Sain jee to do Bhagti (and not by some Brahmin), then how can we still believe in the Saakhi that Bhagat Dhanna attained Vaheguru by worshiping a stone?

I don't care what Kala Afghanis think about this Saakhi but there is no mention in Gurbani about this Saakhi. Bhagat Dhanna may have pleased Vishnu by worshiping a stone but not Vaheguru. It is impossible to attain Vaheguru through stone worship because Gurbani says so.

No one has answered this question that how could Dhanna jee have attained Vaheguru through idol worship, when Gurbani is against such notion?

Sure, in his life, previous to coming in Gurmat, he may have worshiped idols but such actions did not result in his attaining of Vaheguru. Only by meeting the perfect Guru, he was liberated.

Kulbir Singh

Couple of more comments Bhai Navjot Singh jee.

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Bhai Lehna Ji (Guru Angad Dev Sahib) is said to have worshiped a devi before meeting Guru Nanak Sahib Ji. We will now reject this sakhee also?

No we don't reject this Saakhi and no one does. This Saakhi is about Baba Lehna jee's life prior to meeting Satguru jee and no where in the Saakhi it says that Baba jee attained Vaheguru through Devi pooja.

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If not, what is so wrong with Bhagat Dhana Jee's sakhi? Why could not Bhagat jee's sharda have been built upon this way?

Bhagat Dhanna jee's Saakhi about worshiping a stone gives the message that if one worships a stone with full Shardha, then one can attain Vaheguru, which is totally contrary to Gurbani. Only through Satguru one can attain Vaheguru. There is no other way. The idol he worshiped was a Saligraam (I believe) which means he was worshiping Vishnu. How did he attain Vaheguru by worshiping an idol of Vishnu?

I don't have any concern whether this Saakhi is true or not but I certainly have a concern when someone using this Saakhi tries to prove that idol worshiping is allowed in Gurmat and that one can attain Vaheguru through idol worshiping.


Kulbir Singh

Bh Navjot Singh jee

I think is a little extreme and wrong to be calling members here, having the same ideology as Kala Afghana.
Everyone here is against Kala Afghana, Singh Sabha Canada, Darshan Ragi, RSS, Niddar etc etc.

Let's build bridges not barriers

Bhai Navjot Singh Jio,

Still you are not bringing the content to subject yet you classified forum members are likes of Veer Bhupinder, Ghagga, Dhunda, Jachak, Spokesman, etc. If you do not have anything to say about the subject then stay aside why you have to name forum members? You are challenging here the authority of Gurbani yet asking to have Sharda in stone story. What Gurmat point is this?

If you want to discuss and have intellect bring more Gurbani references, references from Bhai Gurdaas Jee’s other vaars, Bhai Nand Lal jee’s bani or from Dasam Granth to prove your thought of to have sharda in stone story.

By your logic Guru Nanak Dev jee was of missionary/kalaafghana thought when they went to Haridwar and started to sprinkle Ganga water towards west as oppose to east to which direction all Brahmins were sprinkling. By your logic then Guru Sahib should not have done that because by doing so Guru Sahib had broken the Sharda of puratan Sakhis/doings of Brahmins.

Daas is more open and hope others too to learn from you about this Sakhi, please bring in whatever you have to say and explain in more detail. Why you have to bring missinionary/kalaafgana, ghagga, jachak stuff here to get support to your thought. Again this is an open forum bring in all your intellect and lead us to believe in stone story.

With Regards,
Daas

Bhai Kulbir Singh Ji, Jasjit Singh Ji,

I have already stated that I have no interest to debate with any of you. All of you are intellectually and spiritually far too superior than this moorakh.

As I previously stated my only concern is the disturbing trend of rejecting a concept so quickly because the "logic" behind them does not fit into our "logic". I am seeing this pattern of rejection/skepticism within the modern Akhand Kirtani Jatha growing and expanding only further.

As reciting Vaar Durga Jee Kee (Chandi dee Vaar) or Chandi Charritar does not promote deity worship, but promotes VeerRuss and DharamYudh, this sakhee and the Vaar does NOT promote idol worship, but promotes sharda/devotion/commitment. If you see this as a ludicrous interpretation of this sakhee or vaar, that is fine.

There is no need for me to convince anyone of this.

As far as the question of calling anyone of you Kala-Afghanis, etc. I think you all know better, please re-read both of my posts.

No-bodh jio, yes, no reason to destroy this sakhee if you are attempting to be constructive.

Bhai Tarnveer Singh jeeo, please re-post your message. It looks like it got accidently deleted.

In this post you accused that I was posting under "No-Bodh". Please note that this Daas and "No-Bodh" are totally two separate persons.

Kulbir Singh

I think Bhai Gurdaas Jee's purpose in writing this Vaar was NOT to highlight how Bhagat Jee reached Vaaheguroo. That is clearly already stated in Gurbaani. I think Bhai Sahib's reason for this Vaar is to highlight what qualities it takes to be 'bholaa' and innocent. The focus here is clearly "ਭੋਲਾ ਭਾਉ ਗੋਬਿੰਦੁ ਮਿਲਾਵੈ." The saakhee of Bhagat Dhanna Jee is simply used to highlight this point, and I think Bhai Gurdaas Jee used this because it is well known and easy for 'aam' sangat to relate to. He could have used any story or saakhee about someone displaying innocent devotion, but chose a well known one. There is nowhere here where Bhai Gurdaas Jee explicitly states that this pathar pooja is the way Bhagat jee reached Vaaheguroo.

That having been said, there is no way for any of us to know if this sakhee is true or not. Clearly, if it is true, then Bhai Gurdaas Jee is presenting one EARLY snapshot if Bhagat Jee's life, simply to highlight how 'saaf' his heart was at that time. We must rely on Gurbaani to understand how that early stage, presented in the sakhee from this Vaar, was the beginning of Bhagat jee's journey, which ultimately culminated in Bhagat jee attaining Vaaheguroo. The later stages of true devotion and bhagtee which Bhagat Dhanna Jee must have diplayed in life are not presented here in this Vaar because that is NOT the focus of this Vaar. The focus here is what constitutes the right type of person to meet Satguru, and ultimately Vaaheguroo. "ਭੋਲਾ ਭਾਉ ਗੋਬਿੰਦੁ ਮਿਲਾਵੈ."

Let's be careful not to brush aside Bhai Gurdaas Jee's Vaaraan so easily simply based our our own limited mat. This is very dangerous behavior, which unfortunately is becoming more and more prevalent on this forum.

Tarnveer Singh

Sorry, Bhai Sahib. I was not "accusing" you, haha! Man, don't be so defensive. I have just seen some threads on this forum as written from No-Bodh, but the signature at the end was yours. I was just curious. Believe me, I don't think there's any conspiracy here. This is not Punjab, haha! For example,check out the first post in the "Mothers Curse Words" thread.

Bhai Navjot Singh jee,

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As I previously stated my only concern is the disturbing trend of rejecting a concept so quickly because the "logic" behind them does not fit into our "logic". I am seeing this pattern of rejection/skepticism within the modern Akhand Kirtani Jatha growing and expanding only further.

Your concern is well-taken that modern Sikhs have made it a habit to reject every Saakhi they hear and many have become very skeptic. Having said that, this is also a fact that some Saakhis out there are false. Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh jee has written about this fact in one of his books. He has even given an account of a true incident whereby he witnessed Giani Gyaan Singh consuming opium. Then Bhai Sahib got confession from Giani Gyaan Singh that he had entered the false Saakhi of Siri Guru Gobind Singh jee consuming opium before going to war. He promised to Bhai Sahib that he would take out this Saakhi from the next edition of his book and he did so. This proves that there are some Saakhis that are false and doubting false Saakhis or such Saakhis that are contrary to Gurbani is not manmatt.

But I agree with you also, that the modern trend of rejecting Saakhis for no reason is disturbing. But we are not guilty of this sin. Just check out the "Gurmat Literature" of this site and you will find many many traditional Saakhis translated there.

Just because, in case of one or two Saakhis, there is a disagreement between us, does not mean that we should start distrusting each other and accuse each other of joining the ranks of Kala Afghana.

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As reciting Vaar Durga Jee Kee (Chandi dee Vaar) or Chandi Charritar does not promote deity worship, but promotes VeerRuss and DharamYudh, this sakhee and the Vaar does NOT promote idol worship, but promotes sharda/devotion/commitment. If you see this as a ludicrous interpretation of this sakhee or vaar, that is fine.

I agree with you about Chandi dee Vaar but this is a totally separate topic and let's not bring it here.

Kulbir Singh

Thanks for your thoughts Tarnveer Singh jeeo.

"No Bodh" apparently takes my old posts (7-8 year old in some cases) from other forums and then posts them here.

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Let's be careful not to brush aside Bhai Gurdaas Jee's Vaaraan so easily simply based our our own limited mat. This is very dangerous behavior, which unfortunately is becoming more and more prevalent on this forum.

Bhai Tarnveer Singh jeeo, Daas and other Gursikhs here can't even think of rejecting Bhai Gurdaas jee's Baani. Bhai Gurdaas jee is the Rooh of Sikhi. His Baani has the status of "Koonji of Gurbani". Which Gursikh can dare to "brush aside" his Baani? We all know Bhai Gurdaas jee's extensive use of metaphors in his Baani. To consider Vaar 10 as full of metaphors is not an Anti-Gurmat stance. Many Gursikhs have same thoughts on this subject.

Kulbir Singh

Haanji Bhai Kulbir Singh Jee. It's nice to know that there is no rejection of Bhai Gurdaas Jee's Vaaraan. But when I read things like "Daas think there is either misinterpretation of Bhai Gurdas Jee’s vaar or there could be some misprinting," as stated by Jasjit Singh, it disturbs me. Have we become such scholars that the only explanation is that the Vaar itself must be misprinted because it does not fit our own interpretations? Would it not be just as plausible, if not more so, that our meager mat cannot comprehend something which Bhai Gurdaas Jee is saying? I guess I'm just not at that level. I can understand if the given interpretation on Sikhitothemax or some other steek many not sound correct, but to question the very printing of the Vaar? I don't know, but this just sounds paranoid to me. Chalo. I'll let the Singhs with real knowledge continue on. I'm happy simply reading along.

So far, Total posts=50, Posters=15

Actively opposing the story= 4, actively defending= 5, Quoted from Gurbani against stone worship= 4, Did not comment on main subject=2

STONE WORSHIP: No body on this forum could ever be supposed to support it. I wonder why even it was necessary to post the views or shabads rejecting stone worship.

DOES THE SAKHI TOLD BY BHAI GURDAAS JI ABOUT BHAGAT DHANA JI PROMOTES STONE WORSHIP: This could be the subject of discussion at the most. Everybody defending this sakhi has repeatedly made it a point to say it clearly that this sakhi does not promote it. Veers opposing it still feel that this sakhi amounts to promotion of stone worship.

Regarding Veer Kulbir Singh Ji' s latest clarification that

Bhai Navjot Singh jeeo, what I said was that "Vaar 10 does not contain historical facts." which means that this Vaar is not stating history but contains metaphors and Drishtaant. What is wrong with this stance? Vaar 10 does not contain Saakhis related to Guru ghar. These are Saakhis from Aan-matt. Bhai Sahib has just used some of these Saakhis to make a Gurmat point. The last Pankiti of these pauris is Gurmat Sidhaant.

I want to appeal to Veer Ji that how something told about Bhagat Dhana Ji, who is active part of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, by Bhai Gurdas Ji; could be given the status of a metaphor or Drishtant simply. If Bhai Gurdas Ji talks about Bhai Dhana Ji, should not it be believed as as real as told by Bhai Kulbir Singh Ji about Bhai Jagtar Singh Ji. Anyway, at least, it could not be termed as Sakhi of Aan-mat.

One thing more about this discussion. Some where in this discussion, our Veer tried to say that this sakhi is creation of Brahmin or suits his ideology. How come? This sakhi clearly talks about incompetency of Brahmin himself, as a Bhagat of God. It also says about his cheating behavior towards Dhana Ji. How come that this Sakhi serves the purpose of Brahmin to promote his supremacy in religious spheres.

Lately, I am able to understand the genuine concern of my Veers that how it is possible for Bhagat Dhana Ji to achieve the ultimate aim of meeting Waheguru Ji, simply by worshiping a stone, for few hours or days. And that also, when Stone worship is "ANTI GURMAT". (Ha Ha, I think my brothers are feeling zealous of Bhagat Dhana Ji.). Chatrik Ji has nicely clarified it by giving NIRGUN/SARGUN DARSHAN theory. Others have repeatedly said that this was Beginning of His BHAGATI and not the ultimate what he achieved finally.

To be continued

Before analyzing the Pauri in Vaars, it must be kept in mind that Bhai Gurdas Ji was a pooran gursikh and therefore could not have written anything against Gurmat. Vaars being “key” to Gurbani cannot advocate a viewpoint that is contrary to Gurmat. Vaars were written during Guru Sahib’s times. Therefore, Vaars were approved by Guru Sahib. Bhai Sahib was not only a great preacher of Gurmat but also wrote the very first Aad Bir Sahib so he must have been well versed in Gurbani. In light of these points, we can look at Vaars and Gurbani.

Vaars are mostly not historic work except few Pauris about Guru Nanak Sahib, Names of Sikhs and reality of Minas. Vaars mostly focus on key Gurmat principles and concepts including Gurmat superiority, rehat, lifestyle and character of ideal gursikhs. Bhai Sahib has used various folklore stories to relay Gurmat principle. He has also used many Gurbani panktis with little alteration to make it easier for Sikhs to understand Gurmat beliefs. Here are few lines from Vaars that are taken from Gurbani:

Gurbani - ਚਾਰੇ ਜਾਗੇ ਚਹੁ ਜੁਗੀ ਪੰਚਾਇਣੁ ਆਪੇ ਹੋਆ ॥ ਆਪੀਨ੍‍ੈ ਆਪੁ ਸਾਜਿਓਨੁ ਆਪੇ ਹੀ ਥੰਮ੍‍ਿ ਖਲੋਆ ॥
ਆਪੇ ਪਟੀ ਕਲਮ ਆਪਿ ਆਪਿ ਲਿਖਣਹਾਰਾ ਹੋਆ ॥ ਸਭ ਉਮਤਿ ਆਵਣ ਜਾਵਣੀ ਆਪੇ ਹੀ ਨਵਾ ਨਿਰੋਆ ॥
Vaars - ਚਾਰੇ ਜੱਗੇ ਚਹੁ ਜੁਗੀ ਪੰਚਾਇਣ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਆਪੇ ਹੋਆ॥ ਆਪੇ ਪੱਟੀ ਕਲਮ ਆਪ ਆਪੇ ਲਿਖਣਹਾਰਾ ਹੋਆ॥

Gurbani - ਹੋਰਿਂਓ ਗੰਗ ਵਹਾਈਐ ਦੁਨਿਆਈ ਆਖੈ ਕਿ ਕਿਓਨੁ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਈਸਰਿ ਜਗਨਾਥਿ ਉਚਹਦੀ ਵੈਣੁ ਵਿਰਿਕਿਓਨੁ ॥
Vaars - ਉਲਟੀ ਗੰਗ ਵਹਾਈਓਨ ਗੁਰ ਅੰਗਦ ਸਿਰ ਉਪਰ ਧਾਰਾ॥ ਪੁਤੀਂ ਕੌਲ ਨ ਪਾਲਿਆ ਮਨ ਖੋਟੇ ਆਕੀ ਨਸਿਆਰਾ॥

Gurbani - ਨਾਨਕ ਮਨਮੁਖਿ ਅੰਧੁ ਪਿਆਰੁ ॥ ਬਾਝੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਡੁਬਾ ਸੰਸਾਰੁ ॥2॥
Vaars - ਜੋਗੀ ਗਿਆਨ ਵਿਹੂਣਿਆਂ ਨਿਸਦਿਨ ਅੰਗ ਲਗਾਇਨ ਛਾਰਾ॥ ਬਾਝ ਗੁਰੂ ਡੁੱਬਾ ਜਗ ਸਾਰਾ ॥29॥

Gurbani - ਓਹੁ ਵੇਖੈ ਓਨਾ ਨਦਰਿ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਬਹੁਤਾ ਏਹੁ ਵਿਡਾਣੁ ॥
Vaars - ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਆਦੇਸੁ ਹੈ ਓਹੁ ਵੇਖੈ ਓਨ੍ਹਾ ਨਦਰਿ ਨ ਆਇਆ॥

Gurbani - ਜੇਹਾ ਬੀਜੈ ਸੋ ਲੁਣੈ ਮਥੈ ਜੋ ਲਿਖਿਆਸੁ ॥
Vaars - ਜੇਹਾ ਬੀਜੈ ਸੋ ਲੁਣੈ ਜੇਹਾ ਬੀਉ ਤੇਹੋ ਫਲ ਪਾਈ॥

Gurbani - ਸਤਜੁਗਿ ਸਤੁ ਤੇਤਾ ਜਗੀ ਦੁਆਪਰਿ ਪੂਜਾਚਾਰ ॥
Vaars - ਸਤਿਜੁਗਿ ਸਤਿ ਤ੍ਰੇਤੈ ਜੁਗਾ ਦੁਆਪੁਰਿ ਪੂਜਾ ਬਹਲੀ ਘਾਲਾ॥

Bhagat Dhanna Ji did not start out with idol worship. In fact, the very reason of him starting on the path of bhagtee was the example set by bhagats he has mentioned in his shabad. He states himself:

ਇਹ ਬਿਧਿ ਸੁਨਿ ਕੈ ਜਾਟਰੋ ਉਠਿ ਭਗਤੀ ਲਾਗਾ ॥

This means it wasn’t any miracle or indication from idol worship that inspired him to find the true path. He may have worshipped idols in his childhood or prior to coming in contact with Bhagat Ramanand but the miracle or having sargun darshan is not possible because a stone does not have God as is clear in Gurbani.

ਜੋ ਪਾਥਰ ਕਉ ਕਹਤੇ ਦੇਵ ॥ ਤਾ ਕੀ ਬਿਰਥਾ ਹੋਵੈ ਸੇਵ ॥...ਨ ਪਾਥਰ ਬੋਲੈ ਨ ਕਿਛੁ ਦੇਇ ॥

ਕਾਹੇ ਕਉ ਪੂਜਤ ਪਾਹਨ ਕਉ ਕਛੁ ਪਾਹਨ ਮੈ ਪਰਮੇਸੁਰ ਨਾਹੀ ॥ ਤਾਹੀ ਕੋ ਪੂਜ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਕਰਿ ਕੈ ਜਿਹ ਪੂਜਤ ਹੀ ਅਘ ਓਘ ਮਿਟਾਹੀ ॥ (Dasam Granth)

Bhagat Ji must have become tired of fruitless devotion to idols and worshipping them. He must have chosen to abandon this path and find something that quenched his thirst for God’s love. All the bhagats from alleged lower caste became popular by practicing Naam so he drew his inspiration from them and chose to follow the same path. His devotion was selfless filled with innocent love.

The very next shabad after Bhagat JI’s shabad is by Guru Arjan Dev Ji which further clarifies that not just Bhagat Dhanna Ji but many other bhagats achieved salvation through Naam bhagtee. The reason Guru Sahib chose to write this shabad is that he wished to refute the false stories about Bhagat Ji that were becoming popular in those days. Keep in mind that when Aad Bir was being written, Bhagat Ji had been dead (physically) for more than 100 years. It was not and still is not common for people to attribute mythical and miraculous stories to the names of well known spiritual people. Bhagat Dhanna Ji was no different even though he does not endorse this viewpoint in his own bani.

The first recorded story about Bhagat Ji worshipping stone that was borrowed from a Brahmin appears in “Bhakat Maal” by Nabha Daas Ji which was written between1583-1603. Slowly, it gained popularity and by the time Guru Arjan Dev Ji was compiling the Aad Bir, it became a well known story that was believed to be true. The same granth has stories about other bhagats that are mixed with mythology and miracles. Nabha Daas was not a historian or a biographer, He wished to have stories about bhagats compiled in one book and he did just that. Many other granths like Parchiya of Anant Das and multiple Bhagat Maala granths by different authors such as Raghav Das from Dadu Panthis and other groups repeated the same stories. These stories were used as a reference by wandering sadhus, preachers and seers to attract people by telling them stories about bhagats that were born in their areas. One of the Bhagat Maala is translated into Punjabi called “Gur Bhagat Maal” by Narain Singh or Sodhi Teja Singh etc. Guru Sahib instead of writing against the story presented the real story of bhagat ji’s spiritual journey towards God.

Bhai Gurdas Ji followed the same footsteps of Guru Sahib and decided to highlight the same point using a different approach. He wrote a teeka or simplified version of Bhakat Maal in Vaar 10. He used popular stories attributed to the bhagats and in the last line presented the Gurmat viewpoint. Bhai Veer Singh in introduction to Vaar 10 writes the following:

ਇਸ ਵਾਰ ਵਿਚ ਲੋਕ ਪ੍ਰਸਿੱਧ ਕਥਾਵਾਂ ਦ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਟਾਂਤ ਦੇ ਢੰਗ ਪਰ ਕਹੀਆਂ ਹਨ ਜਿਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਵਿਚੋਂ ਪਰਮਾਰਥ ਦੇ ਬੜੇ ਬੜੇ ਉਪਦੇਸ਼ ਨਿਕਲਦੇ ਹਨ । ਭਾਈ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਜੀ ਇਤਿਹਾਸ ਨਹੀਂ ਲਿਖ ਰਹੇ, ਦ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਟਾਂਤ ਦੇ ਕੇ ਆਪਣੇ ਉਪਦੇਸ ਨੂੰ ਪ੍ਰਕਾਸ਼ ਕਰਦੇ ਹਨ । ਦ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਟਾਂਤ ਦਾ ਹਮੇਸ਼ਾਂ ਇਕ ਅੰਗ ਲਈਦਾ ਹੈ, ਜੇ ਦੋ ਦੋ ਅੰਗ ਲਏ ਗਏ ਤਦ ਭਾਈ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਜੀ ਦੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਪਰ ਪਰਸਪਰ ਵਿਰੋਧ ਦਾ ਦੂਸ਼ਨ ਲਗੇਗਾ ।...ਸਾਡੀ ਵਿਦਿਆ ਦਾ ਆਮ ਅਸੂਲ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਦ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਟਾਂਤ ਦਾ ਸਦਾ ਇਕ ਅੰਗ ਲੈਣਾ ਹੈ । ਦੂਜੇ ਪ੍ਰਸਿੱਧ ਕਥਾਵਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਉਪਦੇਸ਼ ਮਾਤ੍ਰ ਕਹਿਣਾ ਕਰਤਾ ਨੂੰ ਇਤਿਹਾਸਕ ਸਤਯਤਾ ਦਾ ਜਿੰਮੇਵਾਰ ਬੀ ਨਹੀਂ ਠਹਿਰਾਉਂਦਾ । ਉਹ ਪੱਖ ਜੁਦਾ ਹੈ, ਇਹ ਪੱਖ ਜੁਦਾ ਹੈ, ਪਾਠਕ ਜਨ ਰਲਾ ਮਿਲਾਕੇ ਰੌਲੇ ਵਿਚ ਨਾ ਪੈ ਜਾਣ ।

In other words, Bhai Gurdas Ji is neither writing history nor advocating these stories nor validating the veracity of these stories. This is not his intent. His purpose is to use the stories to present popular held beliefs and then present the reality in the last line. The last line of the Pauri is this:

ਭੋਲਾ ਭਾਉ ਗੋਬਿੰਦੁ ਮਿਲਾਵੈ ॥

Bhai Sahib has given us a clear direction by writing this line to tell us where to look for in Gurbani to understand his point. This line is taken from a shabad of Bhagat Kabir Ji which is as follows:

ਕਬੀਰ ਜੀ ਗਉੜੀ ॥
ਕਿਆ ਜਪੁ ਕਿਆ ਤਪੁ ਕਿਆ ਬ੍ਰਤ ਪੂਜਾ ॥ ਜਾ ਕੈ ਰਿਦੈ ਭਾਉ ਹੈ ਦੂਜਾ ॥1॥
ਰੇ ਜਨ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਧਉ ਸਿਉ ਲਾਈਐ ॥ ਚਤੁਰਾਈ ਨ ਚਤੁਰਭੁਜੁ ਪਾਈਐ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
ਪਰਹਰੁ ਲੋਭੁ ਅਰੁ ਲੋਕਾਚਾਰੁ ॥ ਪਰਹਰੁ ਕਾਮੁ ਕ੍ਰੋਧੁ ਅਹੰਕਾਰੁ ॥2॥
ਕਰਮ ਕਰਤ ਬਧੇ ਅਹੰਮੇਵ ॥ ਮਿਲਿ ਪਾਥਰ ਕੀ ਕਰਹੀ ਸੇਵ ॥3॥
ਕਹੁ ਕਬੀਰ ਭਗਤਿ ਕਰਿ ਪਾਇਆ ॥ ਭੋਲੇ ਭਾਇ ਮਿਲੇ ਰਘੁਰਾਇਆ ॥4॥6॥

The above shabad clearly rejects idol worship and Rahao makes it clear that it is not cleverness that wins Waheguru but it is innocent love i.e. no cleverness, deceit, lies, cheats etc. By being a selfless, clean hearted person, one can win Waheguru to his side. How could Bhai Gurdas Ji advocate idol worship by using a Gurbani pankti taken from a shabad that rejects idol worship in no ambiguous terms? It is not possible. If we read the last line carefully, the meanings in my opinion are:

ਪਰ ਭਗਤ ਜੀ ਨੇ ਭੋਲੇ ਸੁਭਾਅ ਨਾਲ ਭਾਵ ਛਲ, ਕਪਟ, ਚਤੁਰਾਈਆਂ ਜਾਂ ਸਿਆਣਪਾਂ ਤੋਂ ਰਹਿਤ ਹੋ ਕੇ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਨੂੰ ਪਾਇਆ ।

If Bhai Sahib’s intent was to write history then he would’ve given us a detailed story but that is not the case. Bhai Sahib is explaining what ਭੋਲਾ ਭਾਅ is by using a story. The moral is very simple: ਸਹਸ ਸਿਆਣਪਾ ਲਖ ਹੋਹਿ ਤ ਇਕ ਨ ਚਲੈ ਨਾਲਿ ॥ So it is wise to have ਭੋਲਾ ਭਾਅ.

Someone posted the pankti ਧੰਨੈ ਸੇਵਿਆ ਬਾਲ ਬੁਧਿ ॥ and claimed that ਬਾਲ ਬੁਧਿ refers to the idol story but this is not true. The entire shabad talks about different people practicing Naam and being saved. Bhagat Dhanna Ji served Waheguru with innocent love or ਬਾਲ ਬੁਧਿ. Had bhagat ji worshipped an idol, he would not have been saved and wouldn’t have been mentioned in the shabad. His devotion was true to God only which is why his name was worthy of being mentioned as an example.

In Punjab it is very common in schools to teach moral lessons to children by using made up stories. For example, to teach “Where there is a will there is a way” story of thirsty crow is taught but everyone knows that the story itself is fake but the moral is not. Same way, Gurbani also uses popular folklore stories to highlight a point while not advocating or validating the story itself. Some shabads present popular beliefs and then present Gurmat viewpoint. For example, look at Pauri 30 of Jap Ji Sahib or shabad of Bhagat Trilochan Ji in Goojri Raag (ਅੰਤਿ ਕਾਲਿ ਜੋ ਲਛਮੀ ਸਿਮਰੈ). In shabad ਸਹੰਸਰ ਦਾਨ ਦੇ ਇੰਦ੍ਰੁ ਰੋਆਇਆ ॥ Guru Sahib is not endorsing all the Hindu stories to be true but simply highlighting the point that without Naam, no one can be truly happy. Guru Gobind Singh Ji has used popular stories of vile and deceitful women to teach moral lessons. It doesn’t mean Guru Sahib is writing history or advocating the stories. Bhai Gurdas Ji used the same approach throughout Vaars. In first Vaar from Pauris 7-15, Bhai Sahib explains different religions and sects and their beliefs that existed before the advent of Guru Sahib and in the last line presents his own viewpoint but doesn’t mean Bhai Sahib is advocating these religions or their beliefs. Using a story to highlight a point and advocating it to be true are two different subjects.
One last thing I wish to mention is that bhagats like Dhanna Ji, Naamdev Ji, Kabir Ji etc had met Guru Nanak Sahib physically and obtained Naam. Hence, they were Sikhs about whom false stories were sprouting in different regions of the country. So Guru Sahib decided to clear their names by writing shabads on them doing Naam bhagtee. Guru Amardas Ji was the first Guru to mention bhagats in his bani so that the false stories do not gain any ground in the Sikh community. He says that bhagat Naamdev and Kabir obtained salvation through a Poora Guru (Pooray Gur Te Gatt Payee) and these bhagats influenced Bhagat Dhanna Ji to practice Naam which is clear in the shabad of Guru Arjan Dev Ji. Guru Raamdas Ji says: ਧੰਨਾ ਜਟੁ ਬਾਲਮੀਕੁ ਬਟਵਾਰਾ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਪਾਰ ਪਇਆ ॥1॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ Idol worship is not the way to become a Gurmukh in Gurmat. This is the whole reason Guru Sahib decided to write shabads to clarify the point further even when Bhagat Dhanna Ji had made it clear in his own words.

To Summarize:

1) Gurbani rejects idol worship.
2) Bhagat Dhanna Ji himself rejects idol worship and advocates Naam bhagtee.
3) Guru Amardas Ji, Guru Raamdas Ji and Guru Arjan Dev Ji advocate Bhagat Ji practicing Naam.
4) Vaars are heavily based on Gurbani. So Bhai Sahib could not write anything against Gurmat.
5) Bhai Gurdas Ji uses popular stories from Bhakat Maal in Vaar 10 to provide a moral lesson. He is not writing history or advocating the stories.
6) Last line of the Pauri about Bhagat Dhanna Ji is from the Gurbani shabad that rejects idol worship.

I hope this clarifies the paradox for some. Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Many thanks for an excellent writeup Bhai Bijla Singh jeeo.

I had read that Bhai Vir Singh jee too considered this Vaar to be full of Drishtaant and metaphors and I am thankful to Bhai Bijla Singh for producing the quote of Bhai Vir Singh:

ਇਸ ਵਾਰ ਵਿਚ ਲੋਕ ਪ੍ਰਸਿੱਧ ਕਥਾਵਾਂ ਦ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਟਾਂਤ ਦੇ ਢੰਗ ਪਰ ਕਹੀਆਂ ਹਨ ਜਿਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਵਿਚੋਂ ਪਰਮਾਰਥ ਦੇ ਬੜੇ ਬੜੇ ਉਪਦੇਸ਼ ਨਿਕਲਦੇ ਹਨ । ਭਾਈ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਜੀ ਇਤਿਹਾਸ ਨਹੀਂ ਲਿਖ ਰਹੇ, ਦ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਟਾਂਤ ਦੇ ਕੇ ਆਪਣੇ ਉਪਦੇਸ ਨੂੰ ਪ੍ਰਕਾਸ਼ ਕਰਦੇ ਹਨ । ਦ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਟਾਂਤ ਦਾ ਹਮੇਸ਼ਾਂ ਇਕ ਅੰਗ ਲਈਦਾ ਹੈ, ਜੇ ਦੋ ਦੋ ਅੰਗ ਲਏ ਗਏ ਤਦ ਭਾਈ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਜੀ ਦੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਪਰ ਪਰਸਪਰ ਵਿਰੋਧ ਦਾ ਦੂਸ਼ਨ ਲਗੇਗਾ ।...ਸਾਡੀ ਵਿਦਿਆ ਦਾ ਆਮ ਅਸੂਲ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਦ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਟਾਂਤ ਦਾ ਸਦਾ ਇਕ ਅੰਗ ਲੈਣਾ ਹੈ । ਦੂਜੇ ਪ੍ਰਸਿੱਧ ਕਥਾਵਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਉਪਦੇਸ਼ ਮਾਤ੍ਰ ਕਹਿਣਾ ਕਰਤਾ ਨੂੰ ਇਤਿਹਾਸਕ ਸਤਯਤਾ ਦਾ ਜਿੰਮੇਵਾਰ ਬੀ ਨਹੀਂ ਠਹਿਰਾਉਂਦਾ । ਉਹ ਪੱਖ ਜੁਦਾ ਹੈ, ਇਹ ਪੱਖ ਜੁਦਾ ਹੈ, ਪਾਠਕ ਜਨ ਰਲਾ ਮਿਲਾਕੇ ਰੌਲੇ ਵਿਚ ਨਾ ਪੈ ਜਾਣ ।

What Daas wrote about Vaar 10 is similar to what Bhai Vir Singh jee has written above. Firstly Bhai Sahib has written that this Vaar contains Drishtaant and secondly he has written that Bhai Sahib is not writing history here. Bhai MB Singh jeeo, please take note of this quote. More to come...

Kulbir Singh

Thank you, Veer Bijla Singh Ji for your literary write up on the subject. I wanted to get convinced and agree with you. I apologize I could not. Few reasons for that:

You say that Bhai Gurdaas Ji is not writing history in Vaar 10. And you also say that, "If Bhai Sahib’s intent was to write history then he would’ve given us a detailed story but that is not the case. Bhai Sahib is explaining what ਭੋਲਾ ਭਾਅ is by using a story." But we see that when Bhai Gurdaas Ji is writing about Guru Nanak Dev Sahib Ji (i.e.history) he uses the same style of brief Pauries. He is not giving us a detailed story, in a different way. So, your point seems invalid.

When wrong stories about Bhagats were getting popular; was not it expected from Bhai Gurdaas Ji to clarify on those rather than using those stories, for advocating Gurmat view points. Why Bhai Gurdaas Ji did not boldly clarified to the Gursikhs that this story about Dhana Ji is fake. Writing stories about Dhru Bhagat or Bhagat Prihlaad is different from writing something about those Bhagats whose Bani was included in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. They were real characters. Hundred or two hundred years is not long enough a period to blindly support the fake stories related with Bhagats especially those whose bani was included in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Will it be justified to support everything written about 1984 in 2084.

I do not agree with this LAST LINE TRUTH ONLY COMMENT about pauries of Bhai Gurdas Ji. It is justified to say that, last lines of Pauries are the real message generally. But it is wrong to say that only the last lines are truth. Vaar 10 also speaks about other Bhagats. So according to this theory, Bhai Gurdaas Ji uses popular though fake stories, while writing briefly about these Bhagats and ignores all that was true about them, but unpopular.

Let us assume the story is fake. There was no Brahmin, no cows, no stone , no grazing. Who cooked the story? Friends of Bhagat Ji or Foes of Bhagat Ji? If this story is fake, are you ready with some other story, which is true and pro Gurmat and at the same time also proves the ਭੋਲਾ ਭਾਅ of Bhagt Dhanna Ji. If there is no other story, which can prove that ਭੋਲਾ ਭਾਉ was an important and dominant character of Bhagat Dhana Ji; what is wrong in agreeing to what Bhai Gurdas Ji is telling to us?

Dear brothers, I feel that, the Brahmin who is said to have given a stone to Bhagat Ji was pretty sure that the stone, he is giving to Bhagat Ji will never do any miracles to Bhagat Ji. This was so, because, he himself was not truly blessed from idols. ਪਥਰੁ ਇਕ ਲਪੇਟਿ ਕਰਿ ਦੇ ਧੰਨੈ ਨੋ ਗੈਲ ਛੁਡਾਵੈ. But what happened to Bhagat Dhanna Ji was miraculous. That Brahmin would not have believed to it. Similarly, there is a small Brahmin sitting in every one of us. We do not want to see outside our personal simulated model of spirituality. As the Brahmin in this story was blind to see anything beyond his personal experience of fake Brahminism, we are not ready to accept miracles. Stone part of the story does not allow us to see the real and exceptionally Bhagat character of Bhagat Ji. The moment we see stone and Brahmin in the sakhi, we jump on to conclude that Bhai Gurdas ji is true only in the last line of Pauri, not in toto.

Bhul Chuk Maaf Hove Ji.

Many thanks to Bhai Bijla Singh jee for bringing contructive insight about the topic.

Sorry, I do not know much, but MB Singh ji, doesn't "Bholaa Bhaa" refer to following Guru Sahib ji's footsteps and instructions without any intent of selfishness, doubts and personal gain of wealth? I thought "Bholaa Bhaao" meant we should leave behind all falsehood and jealousy, and understand, believe, respect as well as follow Guru Sahib ji's Bachan. There can only be one Truth, not two. By believing and accepting that idol worship is valid and justified, we are assuming that idol worship too is acceptable and leads us to the path of God. But such is not the case because then there would have not been any reason for Guru Sahib to write Gurbani and teach the REAL MESSAGE of God. Up to this day, I naturally believed that the whole reason for Guru Nanak Dev ji to come to Kaljug was to clear doubts in people's minds and lead them to the real path of Vaheguroo. Singh jee, if we go by your understanding, then we need to look at the bigger picture here. That is, if Bhagat Dhanna ji did worship an idol or stone, well then, he was not alone. There were thousands of millions of people who worshiped stone idols and believed them to be God because they didn't know any better. The bahmans of those times were understood and believed to be the spiritual teachers, and whatever they taught and said, people falsely believed without raising any questions against their claims. People bathed selflessly in rivers, ponds and seas, falsely believing that doing so would assure a life of peace and harmony in the hereafter. People committed suicide by laying under huge idols. What did people not do that Brahmins of those times claimed would win you God? But Guru Sahib came openly in Kaljug and showed mislead innocent people to the path of God. People were not getting anywhere with those false beliefs they kept in their hearts. Guru Sahib made those same people His Sikhs and made them Jiwan Mukt. Apart from the Hindus, Muslims too were not exempt from believing in false stories and beliefs. Many Muslims accepted Guru Sahib as their Master and became Sikhs. One prime example is Bhai Manjh jee. So in this light of thought, how can it be generally accepted that through idol worship, God is found when our Guru Sahiban spoke against it and showed the real path to God? Bhai MB Singh ji, we are not closing our minds, rather we are thinking far and wide, while keeping the Teachings of Our Guru's in head.

I know Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh ji in "Gurmat Adhiaatam Karam Philosophy" has written about "Bholaa Bhaao" or "Baal Budh". However, if Guru Sahib ji wills, hopefully I will get time to put up that section for everyone to read and understand what Guru Sahib ji means when he refers to "Bholaa Bhaao" or "Baal Budh".

bhul chuk maaf.

No body is going to change a bit, it seems .

IDOL WORSHIP, IDOL WORSHIP, IDOL WORSHIP: The same cry is being shouted time and again. Veer Ji, I humbly submit that that was not Idol worship. It was not worship, either. It was not Idol. It was a piece of stone. He did not worship it. He talked to it. He was a living and blessed soul. He talked to it, like a child talks to a mother, even if the mother is dead. A kid in India, was once found living after an accident in a valley. His mother was dead. The child was sucking his mother in cold night.

FATE OF ALL OTHER IDOL WORSHIPERS: In my earlier posts, I have quoted the Vaar where Bhai Gurdas Ji has given us the clarification about that. If a misplaced Bhagat receives something out of mercy of Akal Purakh, all others will not get it. Rule is rule.These rules get broken, once a while, in the history of mankind. SAB KO TERE VAS AGAM AGOCHARA. TOO BHAGTAN KE VAS BHAGTAN TAAN TERA.

BHOLA BHAO: Yes, if we believe what by Bhai Gurdas Ji has said, we are likely to be under BHOLA BHAO.

DARSHAN OF WAHEGURU: We have made a big deal about it. It is something which is very very special and happens to some very very special, by doing very very special REHAT MARYADA. How could it be possible, so easily to Bhagat Dhana Ji without meeting Guru Ji. This is what we are trained to think on this forum.

My humble submission here. We need not imagine that while Bhagat Dhana Ji was crying before a stone, the stone was broken and Waheguru Ji appeared. No body was there while this miracle happened to Bhagat Dhana Ji. ਗੋਸਾਈ ਪਰਤਖਿ ਹੋਇ ਰੋਟੀ ਖਾਹਿ ਛਾਹਿ ਮੁਹਿ ਲਾਵੈ|| This is what Bhai Gurdaas Ji tells us. All this happened, between Bhagat Dhgana Ji and Waheguru Ji. We should not think about it. Just believe Bhai Gurdas ji.

Akal Purakh had always been merciful to HIS Bhagats. HAR JUG JUG BHAGAT UPAYA. PAIJ RAKHDA AYA RAM RAJE.

There are sakhies about Guru Sahibaan when, Guru Sahib appears all of a sudden before a Sikh, when the sikh think about him. Guru Hargobind Sahib appeared this way when two sikhs working in a field in summer, found the water to be very cold. They thought of Guru Ji and wished He was there to drink that water. Is it less of a DARSHAN? From where the GURU SAHIB appeared? Out of air?

No, it was the love of Gursikhs, which was attended to by the GURU. Similarly, it is also possible that ਗੋਸਾਈ ਪਰਤਖਿ ਹੋਇ ਰੋਟੀ ਖਾਹਿ ਛਾਹਿ ਮੁਹਿ ਲਾਵੈ, when His Bhagat insists on it.

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But we see that when Bhai Gurdaas Ji is writing about Guru Nanak Dev Sahib Ji (i.e.history) he uses the same style of brief Pauries. He is not giving us a detailed story, in a different way. So, your point seems invalid.

Bhai Sahib wrote on a specific subject about Guru Sahib i.e. purpose of advent and the missionary tours. The intent was to show how Guru Sahib defeated everyone because they were following the wrong path. Only Gurmat is the truth. In case of Bhagat Dhanna Ji, Bhai Sahib would’ve given us a life story rather than just one story and even this one story is taken from Bhakat Maal. So tell me why this particular story was chosen if Bhai Sahib wanted to write history? Can anyone really sum up one’s life by writing just one story?

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When wrong stories about Bhagats were getting popular; was not it expected from Bhai Gurdaas Ji to clarify on those rather than using those stories, for advocating Gurmat view points.

No one appointed Bhai Gurdas Ji to take this responsibility. Bhai Sahib had firsthand material on the life of Guru Nanak Sahib but he did not write a Janamsakhi. He also knew how the Aad Bir Sahib was compiled but he did not write a single word on it. These two subjects were more important than clearing misconceptions about the bhagats. Bhai Sahib wished to write on Gurmat subjects. So we cannot blame him for this. It would’ve been a gigantic task to clear misconceptions about all the bhagats. Guru Gobind Singh Ji has used stories from Panch Tanttar and Alif Laila to teach moral lessons but do you believe those stories in Chritar Pakheyan are historically true?

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Why Bhai Gurdaas Ji did not boldly clarified to the Gursikhs that this story about Dhana Ji is fake.

It is not reasonable to discuss why he did not do something or did not take a certain approach. The only valid discussion could be on what he did and discuss the approach he took. Bhai Sahib in fact refuted the story in the last line by using the Gurbani pankti from the very shabad that rejects idol worship. The same approach has been used in Gurbani and other pauris in the Vaars.

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I do not agree with this LAST LINE TRUTH ONLY COMMENT about pauries of Bhai Gurdas Ji. It is justified to say that, last lines of Pauries are the real message generally. But it is wrong to say that only the last lines are truth. Vaar 10 also speaks about other Bhagats.

That is your opinion but scholars like Bhai Veer Singh and Giani Hazara Singh provided this explanation. It is not just my or Kulbir Singh’s opinion. Read Pauris 7-15 in Vaar 1 where Bhai Sahib refutes other religions only in the last line. Throughout Vaars, Bhai Sahib used many examples from Hindu mythology and presented a moral lesson in the last lesson. Study the Vaars yourself to see it. Consider this shabad from Aasa Ki Vaar

ਪਹਿਲਾ ਸੁਚਾ ਆਪਿ ਹੋਇ ਸੁਚੈ ਬੈਠਾ ਆਇ ॥ ਸੁਚੇ ਅਗੈ ਰਖਿਓਨੁ ਕੋਇ ਨ ਭਿਟਿਓ ਜਾਇ ॥
ਸੁਚਾ ਹੋਇ ਕੈ ਜੇਵਿਆ ਲਗਾ ਪੜਣਿ ਸਲੋਕੁ ॥ ਕੁਹਥੀ ਜਾਈ ਸਟਿਆ ਕਿਸੁ ਏਹੁ ਲਗਾ ਦੋਖੁ ॥
ਅੰਨੁ ਦੇਵਤਾ ਪਾਣੀ ਦੇਵਤਾ ਬੈਸੰਤਰੁ ਦੇਵਤਾ ਲੂਣੁ ਪੰਜਵਾ ਪਾਇਆ ਘਿਰਤੁ ॥
ਤਾ ਹੋਆ ਪਾਕੁ ਪਵਿਤੁ ॥ ਪਾਪੀ ਸਿਉ ਤਨੁ ਗਡਿਆ ਥੁਕਾ ਪਈਆ ਤਿਤੁ ॥
ਜਿਤੁ ਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਨ ਊਚਰਹਿ ਬਿਨੁ ਨਾਵੈ ਰਸ ਖਾਹਿ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਏਵੈ ਜਾਣੀਐ ਤਿਤੁ ਮੁਖਿ ਥੁਕਾ ਪਾਹਿ ॥1॥

Is Guru Sahib writing history or advocating brahmin’s practice? Absolutely not. He is describing what Brahmin does and in the last two lines the entire practice is refuted. In my previous post I have showed how Vaars are heavily derived from Gurbani. This is why Bhai Sahib used the same approach.

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So according to this theory, Bhai Gurdaas Ji uses popular though fake stories, while writing briefly about these Bhagats and ignores all that was true about them, but unpopular.

Bhai Sahib doesn’t care about whether the story is real or fake or its historic veracity. His purpose is to write on Gurmat principles, which is presented in the last line. His intent was not to write history or biography of the bhagats.

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Let us assume the story is fake. There was no Brahmin, no cows, no stone , no grazing. Who cooked the story? Friends of Bhagat Ji or Foes of Bhagat Ji? If this story is fake, are you ready with some other story, which is true and pro Gurmat and at the same time also proves the ਭੋਲਾ ਭਾਅ of Bhagt Dhanna Ji.

Consider the story of thirsty crow which is taught to kids in 7th or 8th grade in Punjab. Is the story real? If not then who cooked it up? And what is the real story behind “Where there is a will, there is a way”? Your questions, I am sorry to say, are childish. Again, ਭੋਲਾ ਭਾਅ and achieving Waheguru is not related to the story but to Gurmat. You are connecting the last line of the pauri to the story which is not correct. Read Bhai Veer Singh’s own words on this:

ਭਾਵ - ਇਸ ਕਥਾ ਵਿਚ ਇਹ ਉਪਦੇਸ਼ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਦ੍ਰਿੜ ਵਿਸ਼ਵਾਸ ਬਹੁਤ ਅੱਛੀ ਚੀਜ ਹੈ, ਅਰ ਚਲਤਾਈ ਨਿਸ਼ਚੇ ਹੀ ਹਾਨੀ ਕਰਦੀ ਹੈ । ਭੋਲਾ ਭਾ ਭਰੋਸੇ ਨੂੰ ਪੱਕਾ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ । ਦ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਟਾਂਤ ਦਾ ਇਕ ਅੰਗ ਲਈਦਾ ਹੈ, ਇਸ ਕਰਕੇ ਏਥੇ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣ ਦਾ ਛਲ ਤੇ ਧੰਨੇ ਦੀ ਨਾਵਾਕਫੀ ਨਾਲ ਯੋਜਨ ਨਹੀਂ, ਕੇਵਲ ਸੂਖਮ ਵਿਸ਼ਵਾਸ ਦੀ ਅੰਸ ਨਾਲ ਮਤਲਬ ਹੈ, ਜੋ ਧੰਨੇ ਦੇ ਜੀਅ ਵਿਚ ਸਚਮੁੱਚ ਸਮਾ ਗਈ ।

Why must there be a story? Is Jap Ji Sahib not enough for you? Is service of Bhai Lehna Ji or Bhai Manj Ji not enough of an example to understand selfless seva. When teaching a moral lesson, authenticity or fakeness of the story is not considered. This is taught in schools to kids. Gurbani, Dasam Granth and Vaars use the same approach. I don’t think it is too difficult to understand.

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But what happened to Bhagat Dhanna Ji was miraculous. That Brahmin would not have believed to it.

Gurbani is clear that idol or stone worship no matter how selflessly done is fruitless. Consider the following panktis.

ਜੋ ਪਾਥਰ ਕਉ ਕਹਤੇ ਦੇਵ ॥ ਤਾ ਕੀ ਬਿਰਥਾ ਹੋਵੈ ਸੇਵ ॥...ਨ ਪਾਥਰ ਬੋਲੈ ਨ ਕਿਛੁ ਦੇਇ ॥

ਕਾਹੇ ਕਉ ਪੂਜਤ ਪਾਹਨ ਕਉ ਕਛੁ ਪਾਹਨ ਮੈ ਪਰਮੇਸੁਰ ਨਾਹੀ ॥ ਤਾਹੀ ਕੋ ਪੂਜ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਕਰਿ ਕੈ ਜਿਹ ਪੂਜਤ ਹੀ ਅਘ ਓਘ ਮਿਟਾਹੀ ॥ (Dasam Granth)

ਕੋਊ ਬੁਤਾਨ ਕੋ ਪੂਜਤ ਹੈ ਪਸੁ ਕੋਊ ਮ੍ਰਿਤਾਨ ਕੋ ਪੂਜਨ ਧਾਇਓ ॥ (Dasam Granth)

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Similarly, there is a small Brahmin sitting in every one of us. We do not want to see outside our personal simulated model of spirituality.

If Guru Sahib has rejected the idol worship without stating any exceptions then must we believe in stories that promote it? You have not presented any evidence to prove that the story is real, If Gurbani allows stone worship or if according to Gurbani stone worship bears some fruit. I don’t think there is much to left to be discussed on this now. Guru Rakha

But MB Singh jee, how does one just become a Bhagat? Exactly what is a Bhagat? And even if one is meant to be a Bhagat, doesn't that person need to come under the shrine of Satguru? How does love for Vaheguroo simply or suddenly just sprout in a person without awakening by Guru Maharaj that 'Gobind Milan Kee Eh Teree Bariyaan'? That means we didn't need to take Amrit after all, we should've just somehow developed the 'bhola bhao' that you are suggesting and received Darshan of Vaheguru ji? And Veerji, what special Maryada are you referring to? There is only one. And the first and foremost Hukam in the Rehat Maryada is "Pratham Rehat Yeh Jaan Khandey Kee Pahul Chakey", before this 'bhola bhao' sprouts in you. Thank you veerji a lot for making me realize to not believe in Satguru Maharaj, His Baani and also not follow Rehat Maryada. I will now try to develop bhola bhao in me by bowing to a stone and offering it food. You should try it too, and you can join me. We can show to the world what 'bhola bhao' is.

I cant believe my eyes when I have read some of the comments on this thread.
How in the world can we be so quick to reject the writings of Bhai Gurdas JI?

First off, Bhai Sahib is not saying Bhagat Dhanna Ji received darshan through idol worship; instead,
BHai Sahib is merely stating one can receive Sach Khand Darshan by having child like innocence ( baal budh)
when doing Bhagti and obeying Guru Sahibs hukums. THis is supported by Gurmat

ਪਾਇਓ ਬਾਲ ਬੁਧਿ ਸੁਖੁ ਰੇ ॥ਹਰਖ ਸੋਗ ਹਾਨਿ ਮਿਰਤੁ ਦੂਖ ਸੁਖ ਚਿਤਿ ਸਮਸਰਿ ਗੁਰ ਮਿਲੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

Now if Bhai Gurdas Ji did not believe in the story of BHagat Dhanna Ji then he could have used other examples in SIkh history to show the effectiveness of child like faith. There are countless stories he could have used to avoid confusion about the historical facts of this sakhi, but he didnt. If we are so quick to reject the sakhis contained in bhai gurdas jis vaars next we will start to reject the sakhis of Sri Dasam Granth then Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji .

For example,

ਹਰਿ ਹਰਨਾਕਸ ਹਰੇ ਪਰਾਨ ॥
ਅਜੈਮਲ ਕੀਓ ਬੈਕੁੰਠਹਿ ਥਾਨ ॥
ਸੂਆ ਪੜਾਵਤ ਗਨਿਕਾ ਤਰੀ ॥
ਸੋ ਹਰਿ ਨੈਨਹੁ ਕੀ ਪੂਤਰੀ ॥੨॥

Should we reject these stories because they dont fit our frame of thinking? Guru Sahib is simply saying by
reciting Gods name one is saved. The focus is not on the stories, but this doesnt mean the stories are not true.
Throughout history any person who recited Gods name ( including kirtam naam) was saved. Yes, without Gurmat- naam one cannot go to Sach Khand, but one could still reach as high as Karam Khand before the coming of Guru Nanak Sahib ji.
It is extremely foolish to reject the stories included in Gurbani or Gurmat literature because they dont suit our frame of thinking. Such skepticism causes doubt when reading gurbani.