ਧੰਨਾ ਜਟ ਤੇ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣ ਕਹਾਣੀ ??

ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥


ਭ੍ਰਮਤ ਫਿਰਤ ਬਹੁ ਜਨਮ ਬਿਲਾਨੇ ਤਨੁ ਮਨੁ ਧਨੁ ਨਹੀ ਧੀਰੇ ॥
ਲਾਲਚ ਬਿਖੁ ਕਾਮ ਲੁਬਧ ਰਾਤਾ ਮਨਿ ਬਿਸਰੇ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਹੀਰੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
ਬਿਖੁ ਫਲ ਮੀਠ ਲਗੇ ਮਨ ਬਉਰੇ ਚਾਰ ਬਿਚਾਰ ਨ ਜਾਨਿਆ ॥
ਗੁਨ ਤੇ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਬਢੀ ਅਨ ਭਾਂਤੀ ਜਨਮ ਮਰਨ ਫਿਰਿ ਤਾਨਿਆ ॥੧॥
ਜੁਗਤਿ ਜਾਨਿ ਨਹੀ ਰਿਦੈ ਨਿਵਾਸੀ ਜਲਤ ਜਾਲ ਜਮ ਫੰਧ ਪਰੇ ॥
ਬਿਖੁ ਫਲ ਸੰਚਿ ਭਰੇ ਮਨ ਐਸੇ ਪਰਮ ਪੁਰਖ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਮਨ ਬਿਸਰੇ ॥੨॥
ਗਿਆਨ ਪ੍ਰਵੇਸੁ ਗੁਰਹਿ ਧਨੁ ਦੀਆ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਮਾਨੁ ਮਨ ਏਕ ਮਏ ॥
ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਭਗਤਿ ਮਾਨੀ ਸੁਖੁ ਜਾਨਿਆ ਤ੍ਰਿਪਤਿ ਅਘਾਨੇ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਭਏ ॥੩॥
ਜੋਤਿ ਸਮਾਇ ਸਮਾਨੀ ਜਾ ਕੈ ਅਛਲੀ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਪਹਿਚਾਨਿਆ ॥
^{ਧੰਨੈ ਧਨੁ ਪਾਇਆ ਧਰਣੀਧਰੁ ਮਿਲਿ ਜਨ ਸੰਤ ਸਮਾਨਿਆ ॥੪॥੧॥}



How important it is for gursikh to do an UPRALA to read the bani himself and do vichaar rather than the relying on the MAN-MADE Stories read out by our KATHAKAARs can be so well seen in this shabad. Dhana Ji clearly mentions the source of his NAAM dhan so the story of barahman and THAKUR POOJA is clearly washed off. I am sure even now the majority of the Sikhs have the same in the mind as we blindly go by the Vicharak Sakhis.

Guru Sahib Kirpa Karan !!

You have a point, because from what I have come across, and based on my limited knowledge of Gurbani, Bhagat Dhanna jee's Shabads are against idol worship, and nowhere does he claim to have seen the fruitlessness of idol worship (maybe?), which just means that he never did idol worship to begin with (I think?).

Veer Ji, kindly let us know, which part of the SAKHI, you do not agree to?

There is a story read out on stages that DHANNAji was a JAT (farmer) and while he was passing by he saw the brahmin doing the pooja of a THAKUR (moorti). Dhanna ji saw this and asked the questions to Brahmin who just to get rid of DHANNA ji , told him that he can whatever from this Moorti by doing its Pooja. Then Dhanna ji is said to start doing the pooja of that moorti to get some land and cows. He did this for days along and then he was blessed with Darshan.


^{ਜਿਸ ਪਾਹਨ ਕਓ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਕਹਤਾ
ਉਹੁ ਪਾਹਨ ਲੈ ਉਸ ਕਓ ਡੁਬਤਾ}

Guru Arjun Sahib further describes how Dhanna Jat met Wahe guru in the Shabad



ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥


ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਸੰਗਿ ਨਾਮਦੇਉ ਮਨੁ ਲੀਣਾ ॥


ਆਢ ਦਾਮ ਕੋ ਛੀਪਰੋ ਹੋਇਓ ਲਾਖੀਣਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥


ਬੁਨਨਾ ਤਨਨਾ ਤਿਆਗਿ ਕੈ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਚਰਨ ਕਬੀਰਾ ॥


ਨੀਚ ਕੁਲਾ ਜੋਲਾਹਰਾ ਭਇਓ ਗੁਨੀਯ ਗਹੀਰਾ ॥੧॥


ਰਵਿਦਾਸੁ ਢੁਵੰਤਾ ਢੋਰ ਨੀਤਿ ਤਿਨਿ ਤਿਆਗੀ ਮਾਇਆ ॥


ਪਰਗਟੁ ਹੋਆ ਸਾਧਸੰਗਿ ਹਰਿ ਦਰਸਨੁ ਪਾਇਆ ॥੨॥


ਸੈਨੁ ਨਾਈ ਬੁਤਕਾਰੀਆ ਓਹੁ ਘਰਿ ਘਰਿ ਸੁਨਿਆ ॥


ਹਿਰਦੇ ਵਸਿਆ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਭਗਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਗਨਿਆ ॥੩॥


ਇਹ ਬਿਧਿ ਸੁਨਿ ਕੈ ਜਾਟਰੋ ਉਠਿ ਭਗਤੀ ਲਾਗਾ ॥


ਮਿਲੇ ਪ੍ਰਤਖਿ ਗੁਸਾਈਆ ਧੰਨਾ ਵਡਭਾਗਾ ॥੪॥੨॥

Balraj Singh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> How important it is for gursikh to do an UPRALA to
> read the bani himself and do vichaar rather than
> the relying on the MAN-MADE Stories read out by
> our KATHAKAARs can be so well seen in this shabad.
> Dhana Ji clearly mentions the source of his NAAM
> dhan so the story of barahman and THAKUR POOJA is
> clearly washed off. I am sure even now the
> majority of the Sikhs have the same in the mind as
> we blindly go by the Vicharak Sakhis.



Veerjio can you please also do the veechar on this vaar of Bhai Gurdas Ji

Baamhan poojai dhaevathae dhha(n)naa goo charaavan aavai||
A Brahman would worship Gods (in the form of stone idols) where Dhanna used to graze his cow.


dhha(n)nai ddit(h)aa chalith eaehu pooshhai baamhan aakh sunaavai||
On seeing his worship, Dhanna asked the Brahman what he was doing.

t(h)aakur dhee saevaa karai jo eishhai soee fal paavai||
“Service to the Thakur (God) gives the desired fruit,” replied the Brahman.

dhha(n)naa karadhaa jodharree mai bh dhaeh eik jae thudhh bhaavai||
Dhanna requested, “O Brahman, if you agree kindly give one to me.”

pathhar eik lapaett kar dhae dhha(n)nai no gail shhuddaavai||
The Brahman rolled a stone, gave it to Dhanna and thus got rid of him.

t(h)aakur no nhaavaal kai shhaahi rottee lai bhog charrhaavai||
Dhanna bathed the Thakur and offered him bread and buttermilk.

hathh jorr minath karai pairee pai pai bahuth manaavai||
With folded hands and falling at the feet of the stone he begged for his service to be accepted.

ho bee muhu n jut(h)aalasaa(n) thoo rut(h)aa mai kihu n sukhaavai||
Dhanna said, “I will also not eat because how can I be happy if you are annoyed.”


gosaaee parathakh hoe rottee khaahi shhaahi muhi laavai||
(Seeing his true and loving Devotion) God was forced to appear and eat his bread and buttermilk.

bholaa bhaao gobi(n)dh milaavai ||13||
In fact, innocence like that of Dhanna makes the sight of the Lord available.(13)

Interesting

One Shabad can't contradict another one.
If Guru Sahib is saying that idol worship is not allowed as we worship Vaheguru only, then the Bhagat's couldn't be against this. If they were then there BaNee wouldn't have being added for sure.

I think the Shabad is trying to say if we do Pooja of Naam like Dhaana jee did with the Moorti then we will surely get Darshan.

ੴਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫ਼ਤਹ||

Khalsa Jio,

Waheguru Ji ki Fateh, Waheguru Ji ki Fateh

No idea how this story was invented. As Bhai Balraaj Singh jee mentioned if one does uprala (trial) to read Gurbani by him/herself, one do not have to rely on fabricated stories. Bhagat Dhanda Jee’s inspiration to do bhagati was not from Brahmin who was doing pooja of a stone but he was derived by bhagti of other Bhagats who were belonging to lower and untouchable classes of Indian culture. Seeing those Bhagats such as Bhagat Naamdev Jee, Bhagat Kabeer Jee, Bhagat Ravidaas Jee and Bhagat Sein Jee, who belonged to lower caste from Bhagat Dhanna jee yet they were deeply immersed in Vaheguru Jee. After listening about them Dhanna jee got highly inspired to do Bhagati of Vaheguru jee and he had Darshan of Vaheguru Jee. Guru Sahib clearly depicts this in following shabad:

ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥
ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਸੰਗਿ ਨਾਮਦੇਉ ਮਨੁ ਲੀਣਾ ॥
ਆਢ ਦਾਮ ਕੋ ਛੀਪਰੋ ਹੋਇਓ ਲਾਖੀਣਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
ਬੁਨਨਾ ਤਨਨਾ ਤਿਆਗਿ ਕੈ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਚਰਨ ਕਬੀਰਾ ॥
ਨੀਚ ਕੁਲਾ ਜੋਲਾਹਰਾ ਭਇਓ ਗੁਨੀਯ ਗਹੀਰਾ ॥੧॥
ਰਵਿਦਾਸੁ ਢੁਵੰਤਾ ਢੋਰ ਨੀਤਿ ਤਿਨਿ ਤਿਆਗੀ ਮਾਇਆ ॥
ਪਰਗਟੁ ਹੋਆ ਸਾਧਸੰਗਿ ਹਰਿ ਦਰਸਨੁ ਪਾਇਆ ॥੨॥
ਸੈਨੁ ਨਾਈ ਬੁਤਕਾਰੀਆ ਓਹੁ ਘਰਿ ਘਰਿ ਸੁਨਿਆ ॥
ਹਿਰਦੇ ਵਸਿਆ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਭਗਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਗਨਿਆ ॥੩॥
ਇਹ ਬਿਧਿ ਸੁਨਿ ਕੈ ਜਾਟਰੋ ਉਠਿ ਭਗਤੀ ਲਾਗਾ ॥
ਮਿਲੇ ਪ੍ਰਤਖਿ ਗੁਸਾਈਆ ਧੰਨਾ ਵਡਭਾਗਾ ॥੪॥੨॥ Panna 487

In light of above shabad it is very clear that Bhagat Dhanna jee got inspired by other Bhagats and did the same Bhagati of Vaheguru Jee as Bhagats did. So, it is safe to say Dhanna jee was not inspired by a ਲੋਟੂ ਅਤੇ ਪੇਟੂ brahmin to do bhagati of a stone.

With Regards,
Daas

Just realized that Bhai Balraaj Singh Jee already posted the same shabad. Anyway this shabad alone is enough evidence to defy any fabricated story by ਲੋਟੂ ਅਤੇ ਪੇਟੂ brahmins.

But then why BHai Gurdas Ji's vaar mentions this sakhi? Are we saying Bhai Gurdas Ji' vaar is contradictory? or is there a deeper meaning of the shabad by Guru Arjan Dev Ji Maharaaj?

Shardha is an important component but it is not the only one. In the Shabad Surat Maarag that Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee gave to his Gursikhs, immense shardha is required. How can one japp Naam without shardha. But to have shardha on a stone can never ever give any Sidhi as written by Siri Dashmesh jee:

KAHA BHAYIO JO ATT HITT CHITT KAR, BAHU BIDH SILA PUJAAYEE||
PRAAN THAKAY PAAHAN KEH PARSAT, KUCHH KAR SIDH NA AAYEE|| (Shabad Hazaare)

Siri Guru jee writes that “So what if one does pooja of a stone with extreme love (shardha) and concentration (chit). One can do pooja of such silaa (stone, idol) till one gets drained out but no sidhi (reward) would come out of it.

Att Hitt Chtt – Extreme Love and concentration
Bahu Bidh – Doing pooja in different ways.
Silaa – Stone, idol
Praan Thakay – Totally fatigued doing pooja
Paahan keh parsat – doing pooja of a paahan i.e. pathar i.e. sila i.e. idol.

Now in the light of the above Gurbani pankiti, which Gursikh has the courage to support idol worship or believe in the story of Dhanna Jatt? Siri Dashmesh jee clearly states in his baani that no one can get anything from a stone. Who should we believe? Siri Guru jee or mythology?

Kulbir Singh

There is no doubt that GURMAT/BANI has no place for the STONE POOJA etc,also very clearly mentioned in the Shabads above. But how do we explain Bhai Gurdas Ji's Vaar ji ?

Bhul Chuk Maaf !!

The story can't be fabricated as Bhai Gurdass jee has mentioned it in his Vaaraan , as posted bu Bhai akaal74 jee.

Logically, we are speaking of Bhagat Dhanna here, who there before SatGuroo Nanak Dev jee took his Sargun form. "Concept of Naam" for doing prema bhagti wasn't something known to everyone, as Hindus were mainly focused on idol worship in Bharat not the formless Raam.

These shabads are written after Bhagat had received darshan, while the idol story is from the time Bhagat was beginning to do bhagti.Please note the difference. Obtaining darshan would also have lead Bhagat jee to the realization & Gyan , which is evident in His Bani.


Chatrik is really not comfortable with the dismissive culture which is becoming prevalent in the forum, instead of discussing and deliberating on all Gurmat sources. Yes Gurbani should alway be the primary source, we also need to keep in mind it's substance is very highly concentrated . Would Bhai Gurdass jee ever contradict SatGuroo?


Would the Draupadi's(Panchali) Sakhi will be the next victim of being dismissed completely ?

Here Bhagat Naam Dev ji says Vaheguroo jee saved her:

ਮੇਰੋ ਬਾਪੁ ਮਾਧਉ ਤੂ ਧਨੁ ਕੇਸੌ ਸਾਂਵਲੀਓ ਬੀਠੁਲਾਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
ਕਰ ਧਰੇ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਬੈਕੁੰਠ ਤੇ ਆਏ ਗਜ ਹਸਤੀ ਕੇ ਪ੍ਰਾਨ ਉਧਾਰੀਅਲੇ ॥
ਦੁਹਸਾਸਨ ਕੀ ਸਭਾ ਦ੍ਰੋਪਤੀ ਅੰਬਰ ਲੇਤ ਉਬਾਰੀਅਲੇ ॥੧॥
ਗੋਤਮ ਨਾਰਿ ਅਹਲਿਆ ਤਾਰੀ ਪਾਵਨ ਕੇਤਕ ਤਾਰੀਅਲੇ ॥
ਐਸਾ ਅਧਮੁ ਅਜਾਤਿ ਨਾਮਦੇਉ ਤਉ ਸਰਨਾਗਤਿ ਆਈਅਲੇ ॥੨॥੨॥

While Bhai Gurdass Jees varan say this:
Droupadi Sakhi in Bhai Gurdass jees Varaaan

If we reflect, Vaheguroo is the source all powers in the universe. If Krishan saved Droupadi, Krishan did so in HIS will through HIS powers.

Chota veer

ੴਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫ਼ਤਹ||

Chatrik jio,

Daas think there is either misinterpretation of Bhai Gurdas Jee’s vaar or there could be some misprinting. More research needed for this vaar. Daas can not say anything for sure, however, In light of Gurbani nothing else can be taken as guaranteed. Guru Sahib jee very clearly talks against stone worship, another shabad to ponder upon:

ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥
ਜੋ ਪਾਥਰ ਕਉ ਕਹਤੇ ਦੇਵ ॥
ਤਾ ਕੀ ਬਿਰਥਾ ਹੋਵੈ ਸੇਵ ॥
ਜੋ ਪਾਥਰ ਕੀ ਪਾਂਈ ਪਾਇ ॥
ਤਿਸ ਕੀ ਘਾਲ ਅਜਾਂਈ ਜਾਇ ॥੧॥
ਠਾਕੁਰੁ ਹਮਰਾ ਸਦ ਬੋਲੰਤਾ ॥
ਸਰਬ ਜੀਆ ਕਉ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਦਾਨੁ ਦੇਤਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
ਅੰਤਰਿ ਦੇਉ ਨ ਜਾਨੈ ਅੰਧੁ ॥
ਭ੍ਰਮ ਕਾ ਮੋਹਿਆ ਪਾਵੈ ਫੰਧੁ ॥
ਨ ਪਾਥਰੁ ਬੋਲੈ ਨਾ ਕਿਛੁ ਦੇਇ ॥
ਫੋਕਟ ਕਰਮ ਨਿਹਫਲ ਹੈ ਸੇਵ ॥੨॥ panna 1160
Those who says stone is God, their worship goes vain ... nor stone speaks neither gives anything, such act go vain and fruitless is worship of stone (idols).

Again, in light of above shabad this further concrete that no Bhagats ever did idol worshipping they all did Bhagti of Vaheguru Jee.

With Regards,
Daas

WJKK WJKF,
"
KOU BUTAN KO PUJAT HAIN PUS KOU MIRTAN KO PUJAN DHAYO, KOOR KIRYA URJHYO SABH HI JAG SHRI BHGWAN KO BHED NA PAYO."

Bhai Kulbir Singh Jio and Bhai Harsh Singh Jio thank you for posting Dasam Bani. What a combination of Pancham and Dasam Bani have goes hand on hand to defy idol worshipping.

Vaar 10 of Bhai Gurdaas jee contains Drishtaants (metaphors or simile) to make a Gurmat point. The last Pankiti of each of these 23 Pauris contains the Gurmat Sidhaant. Bhai Sahib jee has used the prevalent stories to highlight a Gurmat principle. The Gurmat principle in this case is:

ਭੋਲਾ ਭਾਉ ਗੋਬਿੰਦੁ ਮਿਲਾਵੈ ॥੧੩॥
(Bhola Bhaao enables one to meet Gobind).

Bhai Gurdaas jee was fully adept in Gurmat. He knew very well that by worshiping a stone one cannot reach Vaheguru. He is just using the existing and famous story to highlight the Gurmat principle. Gurmat does not agree with this story.

The 8th Pauri of this Vaar talks about how Panchali's (Drupadi's) honour was kept by Siri Krishna. Gurbani alludes to Panchali many times but never does it say that Siri Krishna kept her honour. It was only and only Vaheguru jee who kept her honour. Bhai Gurdaas jee is simply using the prevalent story to make the Gurmat point that ਨਾਥ ਅਨਾਥਾਂ ਬਾਣਿ ਧੁਰਾਂਦੀ ॥੮॥ i.e. the Master Vaheguru keeps honour of those who have no other support.

Vaar 10 does not contain historical facts.

Kulbir Singh

Chatrik Veer, I am also really astonished to find such mechanical analysis of spiritual behaviors on this forum. I appreciate the high level of commitment to GURMAT of my Gursikh Veers, but I wonder their quickness in disapproval of THUKAR POOJA story.

Would someone kindly help me find a PAURI of Bhai Gurdaas Ji, where he says that if Bhagat Dhana succeeds in Spirituality by starting with THAKUR POOJA, that does not mean Thakur Pooja is approved for all others. He also says in that Pauri that if a butcher finds his way to His Lord, even by being in this profession, that does not mean killing animals is justified. Similarly he gives other such examples. Till we discuss that PAURI of Bhagat Gurdaas Ji and all other Gurbani which talks about this thakur "pooja" sakhi of Bhagat Ji, it is unnecessary to try to justify this sakhi. Once we read all relevant Gurbani references to this sakhi, we will automatically agree to it, I feel so.

I am cent percent OK with this sakhi. I do not find any contradiction of Gurbani with this sakhi. It is not at all ਮਨ ਘੜਤ ਕਹਾਣੀ.

ਭੋਲਾ ਭਾਉ ਗੋਬਿੰਦੁ ਮਿਲਾਵੈ

Veer Kulbir Singh Ji, why this character of ਭੋਲਾ ਭਾਉ is specifically being used for Bhagat Dhanna Ji? By rejecting the story of THAKUR, how else will you try to prove this trait of ਭੋਲਾ ਭਾਉ in Bhgat Dhanna Ji? Do you have other sakhies, which also highlight this aspect of ਭੋਲਾ ਭਾਉ, so that you can easily get rid of this sakhi?

Bhul Chuk Maaf hove Ji.

But Bhai MB Singh jeeo, how will you explain the difference between what Gurbani says how Bhagat Dhanna jee attained Vaheguru and how this Pauri of Bhai Gurdaas jee is explaining the same?

We all know that Bhai Gurdaas jee is the Vyaas of Gurmat. He could not have stated a fact contrary to Gurbani. Therefore, the only logical conclusion we can come up with is that whole of Vaar 10 contains Drishtaants. Use of Drishtaants is very common in Kabits and other forms of poetry of that time.

Quote

By rejecting the story of THAKUR, how else will you try to prove this trait of ਭੋਲਾ ਭਾਉ in Bhgat Dhanna Ji? Do you have other sakhies, which also highlight this aspect of ਭੋਲਾ ਭਾਉ, so that you can easily get rid of this sakhi?

We have numerous stories of Bhola Bhao in Gurmat literature. One name that comes to mind is Bhai Palla jee's Saakhi.

In the light of Gurbani quotes posted under this thread, how can we believe that Bhagat Dhanna jee or anyone else for that matter could attain Vaheguru through worshiping a stone?

The only other explanation could be that he had Darshan of Vishnu in his previous-to-Sikhi life. Perhaps Vishnu can be attained through worshiping his idol but Vaheguru can only be attained through Guru's Shabad. There's no other way.

Kulbir Singh

ਜੇਕਰਿ ਉਧਰੀ ਪੂਤਨਾ ਵਿਹੁ ਪੀਆਲਣੁ ਕੰਮੁ ਨ ਚੰਗਾ।
If even Pfitana (female demon) got liberated that does not mean that poisoning some one is a good act.
ਗਨਿਕਾ ਉਧਰੀ ਆਖੀਐ ਪਰ ਘਰਿ ਜਾਇ ਨ ਲਈਐ ਪੰਗਾ।
Gariika (a prostitute) was liberated but one should not enter other's house and invite trouble.
ਬਾਲਮੀਕੁ ਨਿਸਤਾਰਿਆ ਮਾਰੈ ਵਾਟ ਨ ਹੋਇ ਨਿਸੰਗਾ।
Since Valmlici got blest, one should not adopt the way of highway robbery.
ਫੰਧਿਕ ਉਧਰੈ ਆਖੀਅਨਿ ਫਾਹੀ ਪਾਇ ਨ ਫੜੀਐ ਟੰਗਾ।
One bird catcher is also said to be liberated, but we should not catch hold of the leg of others by using snares.
ਜੇ ਕਾਸਾਈ ਉਧਰਿਆ ਜੀਆ ਘਾਇ ਨ ਖਾਈਐ ਭੰਗਾ।
If Sadhana, the butcher got across (the world ocean), we should not put ourselves to harm by killing others.
ਪਾਰਿ ਉਤਾਰੈ ਬੋਹਿਥਾ ਸੁਇਨਾ ਲੋਹੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਇਕ ਰੰਗਾ।
Ship takes across both iron and gold but still their forms and colours are not the same.
ਇਤੁ ਭਰਵਾਸੈ ਰਹਣੁ ਕੁਢੰਗਾ ॥੯॥
In fact, living on such hopes is a bad life style.

I was mistaken probably, the pauri does not contain reference to Bhagat Dhanna Ji story, but it does carry the idea of exceptional cases of devotion.

Bhai MB Singh jeeo, none of the characters listed in the pauri above, with the exception of Sadhna jee, attained Vaheguru or had Darshan and Sadhna jee did not have Darshan because he was butchering people but because he gave up this profession and became a Bhagat.

Bhai Gurdaas jee's focus in this Pauri is totally different from the other one we are discussing. Here Bhai Sahib jee is saying that just because some people ended up good, even though they were stuck in wrong deeds, does not mean that doing wrong deeds is fine.

Secondly these characters are not mentioned doing any devotional work. Pootna tried to poison Siri Krishna but got liberated since she died at his hands. Balmik was a robber but later on met some Sadhu jan who stopped him from doing bad and got him engaged in Kirtam Naam. The Badhik (hunter) accidently shot Siri Krishna' charan but since Krishna jee forgave him, he was saved. The butcher got liberated (not for butchering but after he became a Bhagat) and so did the prostitution.

Lastly, the word Udhaar or liberation here does not mean Tatt-Gurmat-Udhaar (as mentioned by Bhai Sahib) but means getting liberated from the sins they were doing.

I don't understand how this Pauri justifies or says that there are exceptions whereby one can meet Vaheguru without Guru's Shabad.

Kulbir Singh

MB Singh ji,

ਇਤੁ ਭਰਵਾਸੈ ਰਹਣੁ ਕੁਢੰਗਾ ॥੯॥
In fact, living on such hopes is a bad life style.


Doesnt that mean that all the ways take no where ?

And i fully agree to your concern for Gursikhs Condemning the well known and pretty old Sakhis like this very well PARCHALIT in the Panth, but we also need to realize that the if the same doesnt go in line with the Gurmat Principles and moreover, if no such reference/idea is contained in DHAN GURU GRANTH SAHIB ji, it would not be a valid/approved one. There is no doubt that the VAHEGURU cant be reached by ਭੋਲਾ ਭਾਉ and if we stick to the fact that these VAARs were well known Drishtaants of the time(as bhai sahib explained above) and the GURMAT principle is in the last line, every thing keeps in line.


The message here is that we should not only be stuck to ਭੋਲਾ ਭਾਉ, based on this and move away from Guru Sahibs kirpa of Amrit and Bani and thus his CHARAN KAMAL.

Most of the bhagats mentioned in gurbani did not recieve naam in their early stages of bhagti and did bhagti of kirtam naam. The amount of time and devotion the bhagat jan showed to bhagti maarag lifted them spiritually but they didn't recieve the avastha of what gurbani considers the ultimate state of brahm gyaan. During the lives of these bhagats a lot of spiritual experiences occuered and it will be foolish to start rejecting those experiences. Dropdi was saved by Waheguru but the Waheguru did it through Krishan by providing his Kala. BHatt savaiye have mentioned this and Bhai Randhir Singh has also mentioned this in his writings that Avtaars were given powers by Satguru but they became hankari. Sakhis about Sadhna Ji who heard the goat speaking in human voice, BHagat Kabir Ji whose chains were broken and who kept floating in ganga, BHagat Naamdev Ji when dead cow coming back to life all these defy the normal scientific human knowledge limited logics but Akal Purakh's kala is beyond our limits. So why then can someone not see Waheguru in a stone. Even if it was in form of Vishnu, BHagat Dhanna Ji might have had some spiritual experience and hence the mention by Bhai Gurdas Ji. Daas has no problem with discussing the ultimate power of Naam and justifying through gurbani parmaans that yes without Naam sachkhand darshan is not possible. But the title of this thread and the first few posts suggested that the who story is fabricated by some gappi baahman. Daas finds it offensive. If this story is by some lotu potu bahman its amazing that gursikhs of the highest avastha like BHai Gurdas Ji would even consider making it a parmaan in his writings.

Akaal74 Ji,


All these experinces you mentioned above from Guru Granth Sahib have absolutely no room for doubts

--- Dropdi was saved by Waheguru but the Waheguru did it through Krishan by providing his Kala.
--- Incidents abt Kabeer Ji,Sadna ji are all after their had reached that stage of GURU SAHIB's Kirpa so its possible for them to do anything


The question in this thread is how DHANNA JI got his ਗੋਸਾਈਆਂ (Vaheguru), the Bani Shabads mentioned above doesnt keep in line with the VIDHI mentioned in this VAAR.


they didn't recieve the avastha of what gurbani considers the ultimate state of brahm gyaan.

So isnt the Avastha of the meeting ਗੋਸਾਈਆਂ (Vaheguru) still above this ?

Bhul Chuk Maaf !!

A man grown up though, is so innocent, so much devoted, that he takes the words of Brahmin as true and starts talking to the stone as a living God. And he gets the reward of his intensity of love and devotion. This is all we have to learn from this Sakhi. This happened once. Brahmin himself, who casually gave a simple stone to Dhana Ji, was not lucky enough to have this fete happened to him. This happened to Bhagat Dhana Ji only in a miraculous way.

And for Bhagats like Dhana Ji, the stone after that incident was a useless piece of rock. He was very much busy with his GOD and His Worship (BHAGATI).

As Chatrik Veer Ji says, this was beginning. And see, the beginning was so powerful and mystic. The real Bhagati started after that.

ਇਤੁ ਭਰਵਾਸੈ ਰਹਣੁ ਕੁਢੰਗਾ ॥੯॥

Those who will depend on stones, because Dhana Ji is said to be rewarded though a stone, will fail in their hopes.

Quote
MB Singh
And for Bhagats like Dhana Ji, the stone after that incident was a useless piece of rock. He was very much busy with his GOD and His Worship (BHAGATI).

Would you kindly summarize how and where did Bhagat Dhana ji learn to do Bhagti? What is your definition of Bhagti? Exactly what do you mean when you say " And for Bhagats like Dhana Ji, the stone after that incident was a useless piece of rock. He was very much busy with his GOD and His Worship (BHAGATI)."? If this is so, we can assume Bhagti is readily available to all without any cost, cost meaning having to give your head for Guru Sahib. Of course Bhagti is available to all, but only those that qualify to do HIS Bhagti meet the Satguru and receive Naam. That is true Bhagti. By the implemention you're making or suggesting, you basically mean to say that Bhagat Dhana ji somehow magically learnt Naam and became a Bhagat suddenly, without the True Guru. How? Will Sharda alone create a path for you to Sachkhand? Also, there is nothing in the stone to worship, so would Bhagat Dhana ji see some spiritual wisdom in it? Kindly answer these questions. Thank you.

WJKK,WJKF, BALRAJ SINGH JIO,dass was confused because in SHRI GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI example of dropdi and krishan is given. But in other side SHRI GURU GOBIND SINGH JI MAHARAJ ASKS "Kishan Bishan Kabhoon Nahin Dhiyaoon,Kan Sunain Pehchan Na Tin Son". bhag heen bhram chotan khave

Balraj Singh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Akaal74 Ji,
>
>
> All these experinces you mentioned above from Guru
> Granth Sahib have absolutely no room for doubts
>
> --- Dropdi was saved by Waheguru but the Waheguru
> did it through Krishan by providing his Kala.
> --- Incidents abt Kabeer Ji,Sadna ji are all after
> their had reached that stage of GURU SAHIB's Kirpa
> so its possible for them to do anything
>
>
> The question in this thread is how DHANNA JI got
> his ਗੋਸਾਈਆਂ (Vaheguru), the Bani
> Shabads mentioned above doesnt keep in line with
> the VIDHI mentioned in this VAAR.
>
>
> they didn't recieve the avastha of what gurbani
> considers the ultimate state of brahm gyaan.
>
> So isnt the Avastha of the meeting
> ਗੋਸਾਈਆਂ (Vaheguru) still above this
> ?
>
> Bhul Chuk Maaf !!


Veerjio

Daas is not saying that Bhagat Dhanna Ji got the Sakhkhand darshan avastha before getting Naam from Guru Sahib. Daas is only trying to put forward the point that the bhagats did a lot of bhagti before meeting Guru sahib. Even though it was through kirtam naam or sargun saroop bhagti in some cases. As there avastha developed they moved more in to the nirgun saroop bhagti. But yes the final stage was only crossed when Guru Nanak Sahib blessed them with Gurmantar.

Having said that, daas is also of the view that Akal purakh is not limited to Sikhs only. There are good people with spiritual feelings everywhere and in every religion. I remember Bhai Kulbir Singh wrote in one post that if someone does bhagti (of kirtam naam) with motive to get swarg they may get it. Or someone wanting to see glimpse of Raam or Vishnu (devi devtes). Similarly all the bhagats had been doing their bit. They did get spiritual experiences (not sachkhand darshan though) and lot of these experiences are quoted by Bhai Gurdas Ji and some even find mention in the Gurbani.

These bhagat jans were one in millions. The experiences they had can not be used to promote pathar pooja or other non gurmat activites but the logic behind these experiences is what Bhai Gurdas Ji explains in the last pangti that Bhagat Dhanna had bhola bhaao. If through bhola bhao bhagti he could see the pathar talking what's wrong with that. One other bhagat saw the pathar not drowing in the river and swimming across.


Bhagat Naamdev Ji has clearly said

hi(n)dhoo poojai dhaehuraa musalamaan maseeth ||
The Hindu worships at the temple, the Muslim at the mosque.


naamae soee saeviaa jeh dhaehuraa n maseeth ||4||3||7||
Naam Dayv serves that Lord, who is not limited to either the temple or the mosque. ||4||3||7||


So yes same as Bhagat Dhanna, Bhagat Kabir and others Bhagat NaamDev ji also did bhagti of Waheguru through kirpa of Guru Nanak Sahib. But Gurbani also is witness to Bhagat Ji's life before meeting Guru Nanak Sahib where Bhagat ji went to the temple and was not allowed inside the temple by pandats. The temple still stands with turned direction in Orissa and Akal purakh had twisted the temple to face towards bhagat ji

hasath khaelath thaerae dhaehurae aaeiaa ||
bhagath karath naamaa pakar out(h)aaeiaa ||1||
heenarree jaath maeree jaadhim raaeiaa ||
shheepae kae janam kaahae ko aaeiaa ||1|| rehaao ||
lai kamalee chaliou palattaae ||
dhaehurai paashhai bait(h)aa jaae ||2||
jio jio naamaa har gun oucharai ||
bhagath janaa(n) ko dhaehuraa firai ||3||6||


Laughing and playing, I came to Your Temple, O Lord.
While Naam Dayv was worshipping, he was grabbed and driven out. ||1||
I am of a low social class, O Lord;
why was I born into a family of fabric dyers? ||1||Pause||
I picked up my blanket and went back,
to sit behind the temple. ||2||
As Naam Dayv uttered the Glorious Praises of the Lord,
the temple turned around to face the Lord's humble devotee. ||3||6||

There is anothe example in vaar by Bhai Gurdas Ji where Bhagat Namdev Ji also did do pooja of Thakur (this is also pathar)

ka(n)m kithai pio chaliaa naamadhaeo no aakh sidhhaaeiaa||
t(h)aakur dhee saevaa karee dhudhh peeaavan kehi samajhaaeiaa||
naamadhaeo eisanaan kar kapal gaae dhuhi kai lai aaeiaa||
t(h)aakur no nhaavaal kai charanodhak lai thilak charrhaaeiaa||
hathh jorr binathee karai dhudhh peeahu jee gobi(n)dh raaeiaa||
nihacho kar aaraadhhiaa hoe dhaeiaal dharas dhikhalaaeiaa||
bharee kattoree naamadhaev lai t(h)aakur no dhudhh peeaaeiaa||
gaae muee jhaviaalioun naamadhaev dhaa shhapar shhaaeiaa||
faer dhaehuraa rakhioun chaar varan lai pairee paaeiaa||
bhagath janaa dhaa karae karaaeiaa ||11||


Namdev's father was called to do some work so he called Naamdev.
He told Namdev to serve Thakur, the Lord, with milk.
After taking bath Namdev brought the milk of black-teat cow.
Having bathed the Thakur, he put the water used to wash the Thakur, on his own head.
Now with folded hands he requested the Lord to have milk.
Becoming steadfast in his thoughts when he prayed, the Lord appeared before him in person.
Namdev made Lord drink the full bowl of milk.
On another occasion God brought a dead cow to life and also thatched the hut of Namdev.
On yet another occasion, God rotated the temple (after Namdev was not allowed entrance) and made all the four castes (varnas) bow at the feet of Namdev.
The Lord accomplishes whatever is done and desired by saints.(11)


Why can't we believe that Bhagat Jan were given some form of indication by Akal purakh to show them yes he is there and generated the Bhagti Chaao in their munn? Yes their methods of bhagti initially were not in line were gurmat but Akal purakh brought them on the right track through Guru Nanak Sahib.

For a gursikh, the message is clear that bhagti by gurmat vidhi through gurmantar naam is the only method. But the numerous examples that appear in Gurbani or Varaan of Bhai Gurdas Ji are not contradictory. They just give us the glimpse of their life before meeting Sache Patshah Guru Nanak Sahib.

This is the only point that daas wants to make humbly that the sakhis of bhagats are not false. Its the way they are preached by modern day kathakaars to somehow say all paths to god are equal and you can find him even by doing moorti pooja etc.

Let us explain the context of these sakhis with a logical approach using gurmat principles not rejecting them completely.

This is how I have always told the Sakhi of Bhagat Dhanna Ji to my kids and this never occured to me that Bhai Gurdas Ji's vaar and Gurbani contradict each other. Daas thinks that infact both support the ultimate moral of this story:

"Once there was a farmer named Dhanna. He was very kind hearted and had very good heart. He used to take his cows for grazing and everyday he used to see a baahman sitting in front of stone statues worshipping them. One day Dhanna ji asked the baahman what he was doing. The baahman answered that he is worshiping his thakur the stone and his stone gives him all the things he wants. Baahman was lying as he had not received anything sitting infront of the stones. But because Dhanna ji was very innocent he initially believed the false story by baahman. He asked the baaham if he will lend his stone thakur to Dhanna ji. Baahman exchanged the stone in return for a cow from Dhanna ji. Baahman went home laughing that I have made a fool of Dhanna ji. By giving him a stone which is worthless I have managed to get a cow.

Bhagat Dhanna ji went home. He washed the stone and put it in a clean place. Then he sat infront of the stone with bread and milk hoping that stone will accept the food. But stone is a stone how can it eat or drink anything. But Dhanna ji was so much adamant that he kept praying that the stone eat something. This went on for long time. But nothing happened. In his heart Dhanna ji kept praying and praying and praying…

He said if you don’t eat I will stay hungry as well. This went on. Bhagat Dhanna Ji didn’t knew that stone is not God but because he was praying with his true heart Waheguru ji was listening all of this sitting inside his heart. Waheguru ji is inside all of us and he knows everything we are doing. So Waheguru ji knew Dhanna ji is hungry and he is calling Waheguru ji thinking that stone is Waheguru Ji. Looking at his love and bhagti, Waheguru ji decided to help Dhanna Ji. Waheguru ji made the stone move. Bhagat Dhanna ji was amazed to see that stone was moving and eating the bread and drinking the milk.

Then he heard the voice of Waheguru Ji. Waheguru Ji said to Dhanna ji

I am so happy with you that you are so pure hearted and you want to meet me. But my child you will not get me out of the stone. You will have to do lot of bhagti. You will have to get the naam. Bhagat Naamdev Ji, Bhagat Kabeer Ji, Bhagat Ravidas Ji, Bhagat Sain Ji all met Waheguru when they did get Naam and did kamai of Naam. So leave the stone and do the real bhagti. When Dhanna Ji heard about all other bhagat’s lives he was so impressed and he then stopped worshipping the stone. He was later blessed by Guru Nanak Dev Ji with Naam and he did so much bhagti that he went to Sachkhand and he lives there forever in lap of Waheguru Ji.

On the other hand the bhaaman who had been worshipping the stone for all his life did not get darshan of Waheguru ji and was just happy taking a Cow.

So do you want to meet Waheguru Ji who can give you everything or just get a Cow like the fool Baahman? Always remember that only way you will get Waheguru Ji is through doing loads and loads of Simran with a pure heart like Bhagat Dhanna Ji."