what do you do when someone becomes patit?

waheguru ji ka khalsa, waheguru ji ki fateh!

what do you do when someone you know becomes a patit? someone i know used to be such an inspirational sikh, always in bana, shastars in the dumalla, etc...

but now they've cut their hair.

i'm not sure how to react. my first instinct is to sever all communication and just walk away. but then i think i should at least be polite to them, after all, though they may be beymukh, waheguru does reside in every living thing, right? i haven't seen this person face to face since they cut their hair. now i'm not sure what i'll do when i see them. i'm not sure i'll be able to look at them. i'm really confused on this subject. i know people cut their hair all the time, but this person was different, i had a lot of respect for them before. but now...

has anyone else been through this situation?

This is a really though situation. I know from personal experiance how this can make you feel. Seeing an inspirational person fall is very traumatic. Historicaly we know Singhs did not meet with such people. A Rehetnama comes to mind by Bhai Desa Singh Jee which instructs us the following;

ਜੇ ਕੁਰਹਿਤੀਏ ਜਗ ਦਰਸਾਵਤ ਪਾਹੁਲ ਪੀਇ ਕੁਕਰਮ ਕਮਾਵਤ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਸੋਂ ਵਰਤਣ ਨਾਹਿੰ ਮਿਲਾਵੈ ਰਹਿ ਨਿਰਲੇਪ ਪਰਮ ਸੁਖ ਪਾਵੈ ॥

jae kurehitheeeae jag dharasaavath paahul peee kukaram kamaavath || thin so(n) varathan naahi(n) milaavai rehi niralaep param sukh paavai ||

Those who after taking Amrit but commit a cardinal sin; Their company should be avoided (until they retake Amrit) to maintain the Guru's blessings.

Sikhitothemax

This Rehetnama shows that historicaly, Singhs would not meet patits. We're allowed to meet with such people only after they pesh and are re-initiated into the Panth but not before that. Some people feel that behmukhs should atleast get one last chance and that we should atleast try to know why they have become patits. Becoming an apostate is huge bad karma and for this reason, one has to think if it is worth trying to convince someone. At the same time, it can also help depending on how serious the person was about Guroo Saahib, Rehet and Sikhi prior to becoming a Patit. We are all prone to mistakes and this is why we're fortunate enough to have the chance to come back. The key is not to hate those but to accept them with their bad karma as unfortunate ones.


May Guroo Saahib keep His Kirpaa upon us all that we never attain such a status - a behmukh.


Jatinderpal Singh

In my humble opinion, there are at least two kinds of Patits. The first kind are the innocent ones or the ones who feel remorse. These Patits under the influence of Maya commit a Bajjar Kurehit but feel extreme remorse for it. They come to sangat and express remorse and plead guilty. Such people stay Patits till they get pesh before the court of Punj Pyare and only after getting Amrit again, they become Sanmukh Sikhs again. To talk or have dealings with such persons is okay. They should be shown love and sympathy.

On the other hand, there are Patits who after committing a Bajjar Kurehit, remain defiant. Such persons should be avoided. They should be avoided like plague. In olden days, if someone got infected with Leprosy, they were avoided by healthy people because Leprosy was said to be contagious. Same way, the disease of apostasy is also contagious, as per Gurbani and if we don’t avoid such people, we too are in danger of getting infected with this disease:

ਜੋ ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਮਾਰੇ ਤਿਨ ਜਾਇ ਮਿਲਹਿ ਰਹਦੀ ਖੁਹਦੀ ਸਭ ਪਤਿ ਗਵਾਹੀ ॥
Those who meet such persons who have been condemned by the Guru, lose all their honour.

ਓਇ ਅਗੈ ਕੁਸਟੀ ਗੁਰ ਕੇ ਫਿਟਕੇ ਜਿ ਓਸੁ ਮਿਲੈ ਤਿਸੁ ਕੁਸਟੁ ਉਠਾਹੀ ॥
If they meet such lepers (spiritual lepers) who have been condemned by the Guru, they too get infected with Leprosy (spiritual disease).

ਹਰਿ ਤਿਨ ਕਾ ਦਰਸਨੁ ਨਾ ਕਰਹੁ ਜੋ ਦੂਜੈ ਭਾਇ ਚਿਤੁ ਲਾਹੀ ॥
Don’t even behold them in vision, who have set their hearts on Maya (instead of Guru Sahib).

I can imagine how terrible it would feel to see a chardi kala wala Gursikh falling down. Such is the effect of falling of such Gursikhs, that many lose faith or at least their faiths are shaken. In the 1990s, a pseudo sant was greatly on the rise. His popularity knew no bounds. His chelas used to refer to him next to Siri Guru Gobind Singh jee. He became very egoistic and so did his chelas but when this pseudo sant could not restrain his evil activities, his evil deeds became public. Many of his chelas were heart broken. Many became patits. Why did they become patits? Because they were not connected with Guru Sahib but with this Sant.

Mortal beings are sure to falter and if our Sikhi is dependant on the chardi kala life of a mortal being, then it is not safe. Our Sikhi should be dependant only and only on Guru Sahib. Guru Sahib is perfect and for this reason our faith will not diminish if we set our hearts on Guru Sahib alone.

Many people who themselves cannot walk on the sharp edged way of Sikhi, start condemning Sikhi. Wherever they sit they start slandering Granthis, Gursikhs, Babas, Sants etc. In reality they want to put the blame of not following Sikhi on others. They want to justify their weakness by calling all Granthis, Gursikhs, Babas and Sants evil. Why look at bad examples only? Why not look at good examples starting from Baba Buddha jee, Baba Deep Singh jee, Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh jee etc.?

It is sad to see someone fall but we should be very careful in how we deal with this situation. Here are some suggestions:

1) If the Patit person is feeling remorse and wants to mend his ways, then he (or she) should be encouraged to get pesh. There is nothing wrong in keeping dealings with such person. Of course eating from such person is not an option, nor can such person do other sewas like Siri Akhand Paath raul, Kirtan, Langar sewa etc. but such person should be given love and respect, so that he gets encouraged to get pesh.

2) If the Patit person does not feel remorse and is defiant, such person should be avoided and there is no need to give unsolicitated advice to such person.

3) If the Patit person described in "2" above is a loved one, then too he should be avoided but then there is nothing wrong in doing ardaas and paath for such person.

4) Don't hate the Patit person and don't mock him. This is a very dangerous thing to do. This upsets Guru Sahib very much and one who mocks others, especially a fallen person, surely gets entangled in a similar situation as a result of this bad Karma. So don't ever hate or look down on a Patit person. Have fear of Guru Sahib.

Kulbir Singh

The worse thing that can happen to a Sikh is bajjar kurahat. it is better to die than to be a patit.

There is a rehatnama by Bhai Desa Singh Ji that says avoid a kurehitee but as Bhai Kulbir Singh Ji pointed I think this is directed towards those who have no remorse and have no intention to come back into Sikhi. SUch people should be completetely avoided. The Gurmukhs and proper Gursikhs are a paras whatever they come into contact with they have a positive effect. A veymukh is a disease whatever they touch they contaminate.

But those veymukhs who show remorse they should be guided back to the right path. There is a rehatnama by Bhai Chaupa Singh Ji that mentions that a good deed for a Gursikh is too help a person who has strayed from Sikhi and bring them back through love.

Either way people rise and fall in Sikhi so there is no point to get attached to any Sikh or have any expectations from any Sikh.

I think the above mentioned two categories don't cover the full spectrum of patits.

There are some who are defiant and there are some who are remorseful but then there is also a large middle area as well.

What if someone cuts their kesh, feels bad about it, recognizes it as a mistake due to their weakness but does not have immediate plans to keep their kesh again (although they claim they will eventually but have no timetable)? Should this person be boycotted?

Also, many patits today become patits not because of defiance but because of weakness and confusion.

In the old days, when Sikhs cut their kesh, it was a clear cut sign that they were no longer a Sikh. This was ingrained in the culture. This is no longer true today.

Basically - many of the patits out there today claim they'll come back to Sikhi one day (but not immediately) which makes the matter of how to deal with them complicated.

Gurdas Singh jeeo,

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What if someone cuts their kesh, feels bad about it, recognizes it as a mistake due to their weakness but does not have immediate plans to keep their kesh again (although they claim they will eventually but have no timetable)? Should this person be boycotted?

Also, many patits today become patits not because of defiance but because of weakness and confusion.

Those who refuse retract their mistake at the first opportunity i.e. those who don't get pesh or are not willing to get pesh at the next Amrit Sinchaar fall in the category of defiant patits and as such no Roti-Beti sharing should be done with them. When parents confront their patit son the first thing they hear is that he would stop cutting hair or stop smoking but I have seldom seen it happening in practical terms. The parents who are really angry at their son's patit action cool down over time. Hair don't grow in one day; it takes time. In this time, the parents get accustomed to the new look of their son and their son becomes a permanent monna.

I am against so called "soft" or "mild" approach towards the ones who are not openly defiant but refuse to retract their mistake right away or at the earliest possible opportunity. They are just buying time.

Kulbir Singh

I was wondering if parents raise their child to keep kes and then their child cuts their kes as a teenager is it wrong for the parents to kick them out.
There is a rehatnama that states not to child a mona in ones house. This could be interpretted in many ways. Im asking because a relative was kicked out of his house along time ago, and I always wondered if he would have eventually accepted Sikhi if he was allowed to stay home.

I know of another situation where my cousin cut his kes and he was kicked out but his AmritDhari Baba still accepted him and taught him Sikhi , and many years later he eventually took Amrit?

i'm torn on this... sometimes i think when a young sikh cuts their hair it's partially a failure of the parents. maybe if they had spent more time doing paath, veechar, naam simran with their child... maybe if they had taught their children gursikhi, encouraged amrit at an early age...

but then there are always those exceptions. the ones who no matter how good their upbringing, somehow lose their way...


ਹਰਿ ਆਪੇ ਆਪੁ ਉਪਾਇਦਾ ਹਰਿ ਆਪੇ ਦੇਵੈ ਲੇਇ ॥
The Lord Himself creates, He Himself gives and takes away.

ਹਰਿ ਆਪੇ ਭਰਮਿ ਭੁਲਾਇਦਾ ਹਰਿ ਆਪੇ ਹੀ ਮਤਿ ਦੇਇ ॥
The Lord Himself leads us astray in doubt; the Lord Himself imparts understanding.

1kaur Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> i'm torn on this... sometimes i think when a
> young sikh cuts their hair it's partially a
> failure of the parents. maybe if they had spent
> more time doing paath, veechar, naam simran with
> their child... maybe if they had taught their
> children gursikhi, encouraged amrit at an early
> age...
>
> but then there are always those exceptions. the
> ones who no matter how good their upbringing,
> somehow lose their way...
>
>
> ਹਰਿ ਆਪੇ ਆਪੁ ਉਪਾਇਦਾ
> ਹਰਿ ਆਪੇ ਦੇਵੈ ਲੇਇ ॥
> The Lord Himself creates, He Himself gives and
> takes away.
>
> ਹਰਿ ਆਪੇ ਭਰਮਿ
> ਭੁਲਾਇਦਾ ਹਰਿ ਆਪੇ ਹੀ
> ਮਤਿ ਦੇਇ ॥
> The Lord Himself leads us astray in doubt; the
> Lord Himself imparts understanding.


I too believe its the parents fault many times. As many parents tell their kids to keep their kes, but they dont really teach them why they should keep and respect their kes. So eventually such children dont build a genuine appreciation and love for Sikhi. When I mention to people that if a child cuts their kes its most likely the parents fault for not guiding the child. They then try to use the argument that Guru Sahibs son Baba Sri Chand did not accept the teaching from Guru Sahib so what makes you think any other parent can make sure their child well get into Sikhi. I really get annoyed when they use this arguement because in a way its direspecting GUru Sahib. Personally I think AKal Purakh purposely arranged this to show that Bhai Lena Ji was more of a son then Baba Sri Chand due to his devotion. Also Akal Purakh was showing that the True Guru can be so close to a person but because of Haumi the person doesnt realize it.

There are rare cases when a religious family properly raise their children and for some unknown reason their child abandons Sikhi. But these are extremely rare cases and people who usually do such things have such bad karma . because such people have not done much ( simran,seva,atc) to erase this karma despite they eventually lose the great fortune of Sikh despite their parents hard efforts and proper guidance.

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Kulbir Singh
It is sad to see someone fall but we should be very careful in how we deal with this situation. Here are some suggestions:

1) If the Patit person is feeling remorse and wants to mend his ways, then he (or she) should be encouraged to get pesh. There is nothing wrong in keeping dealings with such person. Of course eating from such person is not an option, nor can such person do other sewas like Siri Akhand Paath raul, Kirtan, Langar sewa etc. but such person should be given love and respect, so that he gets encouraged to get pesh.

2) If the Patit person does not feel remorse and is defiant, such person should be avoided and there is no need to give unsolicitated advice to such person.

3) If the Patit person described in "2" above is a loved one, then too he should be avoided but then there is nothing wrong in doing ardaas and paath for such person.

4) Don't hate the Patit person and don't mock him. This is a very dangerous thing to do. This upsets Guru Sahib very much and one who mocks others, especially a fallen person, surely gets entangled in a similar situation as a result of this bad Karma. So don't ever hate or look down on a Patit person. Have fear of Guru Sahib.

i have finally talked to the person in question. they said that they felt like an impostor... wearing bana but feeling empty inside. they said they didn't fit in with their sangat (there are very few who keep bana in our area), and didn't want sangat to feel they were so different. they said they still are the same person as before, only with different roop, etc.

not sure where this fits in. i guess i'd say they do not feel remorse, but i don't know that they're defiant either. i think it's a case of lack of gursikh sangat and lack of faith in guru sahib to solve all obstacles. i wish i had known earlier. i wish i could have done something to help.

i understand that it's difficult to not have gursikh sangat, i don't have any in my area... but i'm lucky to have a gursikh husband to do sangat with, and "cyber sangat" who encourage and support me. may guru sahib bless us all with gursikh sangat so we never get in doubt like this person...

Quote

i have finally talked to the person in question. they said that they felt like an impostor... wearing bana but feeling empty inside. they said they didn't fit in with their sangat (there are very few who keep bana in our area), and didn't want sangat to feel they were so different. they said they still are the same person as before, only with different roop, etc.

not sure where this fits in. i guess i'd say they do not feel remorse, but i don't know that they're defiant either. i think it's a case of lack of gursikh sangat and lack of faith in guru sahib to solve all obstacles. i wish i had known earlier. i wish i could have done something to help.

Agreed that the person is not defiant but it is a fact that the person is not feeling remorse. The sign of a person who feels remorse is that he or she feels guilt and is willing to make the corrective move (get pesh). If such person does not want to mend his or her ways and wants to continue with the Manmat, it is best to leave the person to the Will of Vaheguru, and move on. Don't keep any hatred, nor look down on such person. If you have sentiments for this person, then an Ardaas can be done with Paath. Dealings with such person should not be continued.

Kulbir Singh