Importance of Bana

I have a preference for blue but was under the impression that white, yellow and black were all acceptable Sikh colours.

NS jio, please refrain from saying "Kulbir jeeo". At least call him "Kulbir Singh jeeo" and for others too, call them by their full name including Singh or Kaur.

Also give to other Gursikh members of this forum.

Hari Singh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "ns" "jeeo"
>
> Please write SINGH with names of fellow forum
> members. It comes across very impolite when you
> call a Singh by half their name. You have been
> kindly asked before too.
>
> Please be more vigilant "ns" "jeeo".
>
> Thank you.
>
> H.S

WJKK WJKF

HARI SINGH JEEO- Oh so so sorry Jeeo , please accept my apologies it would also nice if the person who has warned me Kulbir singh jee and members such as yourself start using Fateh before opening a statement or replying to any threads - what is the problem with my request too veere--??

Quote

HARI SINGH JEEO- Oh so so sorry Jeeo , please accept my apologies it would also nice if the person who has warned me Kulbir singh jee and members such as yourself start using Fateh before opening a statement or replying to any threads - what is the problem with my request too veere--??

NS jeeo, please don't impose your writing style on others. Some Gursikhs begin with Mangal while others with Fateh and yet others (like this Daas) write posts without Mangal or Fateh. Writing on a forum is like writing for a newspaper or a magazine and you don't have to write Fateh in the beginning. So many articles of Bhai Vir Singh, Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh jee and others have been published in magazines but they did not write Fateh in the beginning. So don't force it on others.

I am not saying that writing Fateh is wrong but I feel it's not mandatory. However writing a Mangal is our tradition and Daas wants to follow this tradition in the future.

On the other hand, addressing a Gursikh without "Singh" or "Kaur" is a violation of our Rehit Maryada and disrespectful as well. This is why, Daas requested you to address Gursikhs with their full names and not half names.

Aap jee no Benti hai, please don't make an issue out of this. If you want to continue addressing me as "Kulbir" as oppposed to "Kulbir Singh", go ahead. I won't object to it any longer.

Kulbir Singh

WJKK WJKF

Kulbir Singh Jeeo and others,

I apologize in advance for gesturing or trying to force you to say Fateh before writing - perhaps you can forgive this keera...

man we love making a meal of things! Kulbir Singh Jeeo - I could write an essay towards what you've said and nit pick every where you have
addressed people with jeeo as I have - but I won't - not worth it.. Apologies app ki shatii ko bhung kar deeyaaa..

NS Ji,

If you are going to use Guru Sahibs greeting, please say it in full rather than use abbreviations. And I agree with everyone else, addressing Amritdharis it is compulsory to use Singh and Kaur out of respect.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ke Fateh!!

Unjaan-- Kaur or Singh ?? what are you, try and addres that first - as you can see I have addressed your request let's see if you can addres mine?? --

Kulbir Singh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> But in the quote that you gave, Mata Kali clearly
> means the Devi Kali, and not Akal Purakh. And
> furthermore the quote was telling us to wear the
> Baana of Mata Kali. We surely should wear Blue
> Baana but not that of Mata Kali but that of Siri
> Guru Kalgidhar jee.
>
> Daas,
> Kulbir Singh

Bhai Kulbir Singh Jeeo,

In the quote I provided why cant MahaKali be used poetically ( metaphorically)? The quote
is emphasizing the color blue and has nothing to do with looking like MahaKali.
Many of the devtas and avtaars of the past in which WaaheGuru manifested himself in
where in black-Blue ( navy blue). For example, Mahakali ( Durga), Vishnu, Krishna,etc.

ਆਪੇ ਸਾਵਲ ਸੁੰਦਰਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਆਪੇ ਵੰਸੁ ਵਜਾਹਾ ॥
Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji

ਪ੍ਰਭਜੂ ਤੋਕਹਿ ਲਾਜ ਹਮਾਰੀ ॥ ਨਲਿ ਕੰਠ ਨਰਹਰਿ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ਨੀਲ ਬਸਨ ਬਨਵਾਰੀ ॥੧॥ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Sri Dasam Ju Ka Granth


So why is there harm in using past historical figure that dressed in blue knowing that the
people of that time where very familiar with these historical figures? How could they
not be familar with MahaKali if they recited Chandi Di Vaar daily? It was WaaheGuru who destroyed
Mahishasura from the body of a blue being. This color blue reminds us that WaaheGuru manifest in
KhargDhari Singhs the same way he manifested in Maha Kali.

MahaKali doesnt wear any kind of BaNa ( clothes) so the quote cannot be telling us to wear the same clothes as MahaKali instead its saying to where the same color as MahaKali ( dark Blue)

ns Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ke Fateh!!
>
> Unjaan-- Kaur or Singh ?? what are you, try and
> addres that first - as you can see I have
> addressed your request let's see if you can addres
> mine?? --


Singho if someone is requesting that you call them by their full name you
should just accept it and not get offensive. It is a Gurmat tradition to call Gursikhs
by their full name.
Their is no tradition that we must say Fateh when exchanging thoughts
over the internet. IF you like to say Fateh when writing post then thats good, but we cant
force this on others especially ifs not a Gurmat tradition.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji ke Fateh!!!

Veer Sukhdeep Singh Jeeo,

I rest my case before I get the entire Canadian Bibekee Singhs after me here in the UK-- I humbly have accepted all requests i.e to say Fateh in FULL and announce SINGH ---.fully-- I didn't think in the slightest in my heart that I was offending , but that is mmy MUTT and BUDH so far which ain't much as you can see.

Since when did this thread take a different tone? We started with Gurmukhi Bana, moved on to Kaali Mata, whether is it necessary and required to write Fatheh before starting to write a post, and to the point of emphasizing the need to address Gursikhs with Singh & Kaur.

NS jee, not everyone here on this is from Canada. Bhai Sukhdeep Singh ji is from California, USA. And no need to be worried. Although, we disagree with you on certain points, we are not going to hurt you. Don't worry, sleep tight, gurmat bibekis won't bite.

NS Ji,

For your reference I am male, though not Canadian, or Bibekee, maybe Maharaj will do kirpa one day. We all make mistakes and are here to learn, me more than anyone, hence my Internet name. We can do this on this site as it is unique, and it focuses purely on Gurmat.

NS jeeo, Sevaka dee Benti parvaan karan layee, aap jee da Dhanvaad hai, Shukar hai, Meharbaani hai.

Daas valo, Bhul Chuk dee Muaafi jee.

Guru Sahib tuhaanu Chardi Kala vich Rakhan!

Kulbir Singh

Dear Veer Jio,

It seems like there has been a lot of confusion about kali, durga, chandi, shiv, shiva. lets make it simple:

We all know about shiv, brahma, vishnu. we know there characters as well eg:
1. Shiv- he is filled with KAM, KRODH, HANKAR
2. Vishnu- LOBH, Greedyness, MOH
3. Brahma- Kindness, knowledge etc

Now if you interpret it in the light of gurbani- they form "tre gun"
1. Shiv - Tamo gun
2. Vishnu- Rajo Gun
3. Brahma- Satogun

Combined they form tregun maya.This maya influences human mind and try to distract it away. But this maya has been created by waheguru. This gun of tre gun maya is improtant .Guru sahib has mentioned that " is kaya andar brahma bishan mahesh jit opat sab sansarra" The reason hindu is Blind is that they started worshipping this tre gun maya by making there idols.They are not in the form of any bodies. They are present inside you. You need to be aware of it. There role was to play as servants of human mind but instead human mind became there servant.

In chobis avtar it is clearly written at the start:
pritham Kal sab jag ko tata
taate bhayo tej bikhyata
soi" bhavani" "naam" kahai
jin sagri yeh srisht upaii( 30)

Means that KAL is tat( father) of everyone. Out of him an energy erupted and that was called" Bhavani "which was alos called "NAAM" . This NAAM roopi Bhavani created the whole universe. In Guru Granth sahib maharaj it is written " Nam ke dhare Khand Brahmand" So this naam and bhavani are the same.


Now what is DURGA:
Durga- DURG- means fort,
- GA- means protector of the fort.
this durga is the protector of fort around the mind.

Who is Inder- it is our mind that has lost its raaj to Rakash like Kaam Krodh Lobh Moh Hankaar.

Who is durga then- durga is Gurmat that has been created by Waheguru Himself to protect the mind. This mind can two types of forts around it:
1.Bharam garh fort- which can only be destroyed by gur gian gola as mentioned by Bhagat Kabeer ji as well.
2. And Giyan garh fort - means fort of guru gian around mind.
Gur Gian then becomes protector of gursikhs mind acting like Durga. So gursikh fights with the "Sumb"" Kasumb" which are the daints present inside us like Trishma, abhilasha, kaam , krodh with the Aid of durga roop gurmat( gurbani),Now these raksash still will take over if you dont use Naam roopi Bhavani- means KALI. Now this naam roopi Kaali gets pargat from durgas forehead. Forehead contains brain means giyan. Means naam gets pargat from the giyan given by guru sahib. Now with the help of this naam roopi Kaali and durga roopi gurbani we can easily kill these Sumbh kasoombh roopi kam krodh lobh moh hankaar. Now we can ask that these Kaam Krodh Lobh Moh hankaar are the form of tre gun maya means part of shivji then how can they be shumb kashumb rakash.Answer is simple, because sumb and kasumb has been created by tregun maya as well.

Now back to the point of Nila bana of Kali- In other words neela bana of "NAAm". Naam is bana it self. It has no colour. It has all colours as well. It has no dedicated colour. And gur sikhs wear the chola of naam:
"har naam hamara penan jit fir nange naa hovh hor penan ki hamari sard gayi"

So how can kali have blue dress then.

Yes kali has mala of moond around the neck as that mala contains heads of kaam krodh lobh moh hankaar.

Hundu is anna because even it was clearly mentioned, they couldnt understand. Gursikh is sujakha because it has" Gurmat" roopi "durga" which is riding "Singh" roopi "guru"

Now this was the story of nirgun. In sargun it is same but in pictorial form.

Nirgun- Naam- Kaali- Bhaugauti In sargun- Bhaugaut- Sri sahib.

The way naam destroys dusht, sri sahib destroys dusht as well.

Both are worn by Gur Giyan- In nirgun- Guru and its Bani and in sargun- khalsa enlightened by bani and naam carries kali roopi sri sahib.

Both have same roles. So thats why Khalsa fights in nirgun, he is saint and when he fights in sargun he is soldier.

Hope its not too complicated.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji ki fateh jeo

Daas

Kawaljit Singh

Kawaljit Singh Jeeo,

There is overwhelming evidence that blue was the color given to Khalsa
by Guru Sahib. This discussion has been already discussed extensively
on this forum.Mata Kali is in blue and carries Sri Sahib the same way Khalsa
wears Blue and carries Sri Sahib.

In regards, to your views of Chandi. I believe your views are interesting but I dont
agree with them. In Gurbani there is no emphasis on Chandi , Shiva, etc. Instead
emphasis is on their Sword ( Bhagauti) Ji which was blessed to destroy the Dusht.
Chandi is just a character whom has no significance in GUrmat religion again emphasis
is on holy sword ( Khanda) which is powered by WaaheGuru Ji. It was through this celestial power
manifested in shaster that Ram Chander was able to destroy the head of Ravana, before the manifest power
the arrows had no effect.

Dear Veer Sukhdeep singh jio,

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh.

Bhai sahib Bhai randheer singh ji has written in his book regarding bhagauti. I am giving a quote here and that is the summary at the end of Bhai Sahibs Lekh :

ਇਸੇ ਪ੍ਰਕਾਰ ਹੀ ‘ਭਗਉਤੀ’ ਪਦ ਰੂਪੀ ਸੰਕੇਤਕ ਪਦ ਅਰਦਾਸੇ ਅੰਦਰ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਦਸਮੇਸ਼ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਜੀ ਨੇ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਪ੍ਰਚੰਡਕ ਅਕਲ ਕਲਾ ਪ੍ਰਥਾਇ ਹੀ ਉਚਾਰਨ ਕੀਤਾ ਹੈ, ਦੇਵੀ ਦਾ ਭਾਵ ਹਰਗਿਜ਼ ਨਹੀਂ। ਦੇਵੀ ਵਾਲਾ ਭਾਵ ਅਗਿਆਨੀ ਮੂੜ੍ਹ-ਮਤੀਆਂ ਦੀ ਹੀ ਕਾਢ ਹੈ। ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਦੀ ਖੜਗ-ਕੇਤ, ਜੋਤਿ-ਪ੍ਰਚੰਡਨੀ-ਅਕਲ-ਕਲਾ ਦਾ ਨਾਉਂ ਹੀ ‘ਭਗਉਤੀ’ ਸੰਕੇਤਿਆ ਗਿਆ ਹੈ।

{‘ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਲੇਖ’ ਪੁਸਤਕ ਵਿਚੋਂ}

and we all know that ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਦੀ ਖੜਗ-ਕੇਤ, ਜੋਤਿ-ਪ੍ਰਚੰਡਨੀ-ਅਕਲ-ਕਲਾ is actually "NAAM". So that what i was saying that in nirgun roop this bhaugoti is naam and it is written in the preface of chaubis avtar as well by guru sahib himself . Chandi is not mare a character. Bhai sahib is written this in his book and i think you have quoted that i one of your messages as well. I will re quote it:


Durga is not simply a devi. It is not simply a character. It is filled with naam kala of chetan waheguru.

I dont believe in durga as a deity but as gurbani roopi chand kala filled with naam ras who is ready to battle 5 demons inside us.

But in sargun roop it is sword which when comes in hand of bir khalsa does sodhai of dushts.

That was the concept that entered in my small brain.


Regards Veerjio,

Kawaljit Singh

Veer Kawaljit Singh Jeeo,

Bhai Randhir Singh Ji never gave the meaning of Chandi or Devi as Bhagautee in fact
he says its manmat to give such meanings to Bhagautee and only people derived of any knowledge give such meanings. He referred to Bhagautee as Sri Sahib, and for this reason
he cannot refer to Durga as Sri Sahib or Khanda of Naam.

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਖੜਗਕੇਤ ਦੀ ਬਖ਼ਸ਼ੀ ਹੋਈ ਖੰਡਾ-ਖੜਗੇਸ਼ੀ-ਕਲਾ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ ਹੀ ਭਗਉਤੀ ਹੈ। ਭਗਉਤੀ ਦੇ ਅਰਥ ਦੇਵੀ ਦੇ ਕਰਨੇ ਨਿਰੇ ਮਨਮਤੀ ਅਗਿਆਨੀ ਪੁਰਸ਼ਾਂ ਦਾ ਕੰਮ ਹੈ। “ਲਈ ਭਗਉਤੀ ਦਰਗਸ਼ਾਹ” ਦੇ ਅਰਥ ਹਰਗਿਜ਼ ਇਹ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੋ ਸਕਦੇ ਕਿ ਦੁਰਗਾ ਰੂਪੀ ਦੇਵੀ ਨੇ ਹੱਥ ਵਿਚ ਦੇਵੀ ਫੜੀ।
Gurmat Lekht


He mentions Durga received power from WaaheGuru and thus was able to destroy the Demons ( devtas).
ਦੁਰਗਾ ਨੂੰ ਮਹਿਜ਼ ਇਕ ਤ੍ਰੀਮਤ ਮਤ ਖਿਆਲ ਕਰੋ, ਦੇਵੀ ਮਤ ਖਿਆਲ ਕਰੋ, ਉਸ ਅੰਦਰ ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਨੇ ਕਲਾ-ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਮੀ ਤੇ ਆਕ੍ਰਖਣੀ ਬਲ ਪਾਇਆ ਤਾਂ ਅਨੇਕਾਂ ਸਮੂਹ ਦੈਂਤਾਂ ਦਾ ਨਾਸ਼ ਕਰਾਇਆ
Gurmat Lekht

Because only through the manifested power of WaaheGuru can demons/opponents be destroyed. The same way Ram Chander was able to finish off Ravan with "special arrow" Chandi was able to finish of Mahaksur with "special sword" both Raam Chander and Durga are irrelevant they were just the vessel ( body) Akal Purakh used to destroy the dusht.

Dear Veer Sukhdeep Singh Jio,

Both of us are not considering durga as devi. I am not talking about some hindu devi here and i am not talking about sri sahib as well. I am taking theological meaning of the character described as Durga. I am not saying that Some hindu diety is Durga. I am refering to "Gurbani" as durga. I am talking about the second dimension here. In one dimension durga kills demons with the help of kali riding on lion. If you think from naam prospective that in the second dimension, it is gursikh, fighting with 5 demons( dusht roop) with the help of gurbani roopi durga( matti devi) and naam roopi kali. And i am saying that bhaugoti in pargat roop is shamsheer as well. Khalsa does not wait to get some powerfull khand or power full sword to go and fight with dushts. The khanda that make khalsa powerfull is naam khanda. This is the same naam roopi power with which bhai Bachittar singh ji can kill an elephant with one blow. This is the same naam roopi power which can hold Baba Deep Singh ji without a head. It is not some girl name durga, forget aboout the sargun word for a moment and antardhayan ho ke apne man nu dekho. Your mind is fighting with the demons. What assistance is he getting. " gagan damam bajeo pareo nishane ghao, khet jo mandeo surma ab joojan ko dao" Bhagat Kabber ji is talking about the same youdh inside the mind of khalsa so that he becomes khalsa. Khalsa of bhagat kabeer ji fights with the aid of gur gian and naam. You can make it simple, you can make it complex. Bani tells us about the nirgun by giving examples of sargun. Thats why professor darshan singh gets entangled when he thinks that Bhagat naam dev ji was Bhagat of deh Dhari Ram Chandar ji when he explains the meaning of shabad " name ke soami sia bihori lank babheekan aapio re". If you take the nirgun meaning of the shabad, sho is sia- mind, what is lanka - bharam garh, what is babheekan- who guides ram chandar the way to kill Bharam roopi ravan is gurbani and the ashtar with which ravan gets killed is naam roopi khanda.It is the same bharam garh roopi kila that bhagat kabeer ji mentioned in shabad " kio garh leeje banka bhai, dovar kot or tevar khai". We dont have any thing to do with ram chandar, kali or whatever. these are drishtantic parman given to us to under stand things better. All these this are present inside your body- "kaya andar bhrahma bisan mahesha sab opat jit sansar" and this kaya is same " kaya kaman et soaleeo pir vase jis naale". We have a concept of "jo brahmande soi pinde". All these brahma bisan mahes( sivji) are not sitting outside on some mountain. They are inside you. You just have to explore your kaya".

Hopefully this would have made things clear. Still correct me if i am wrong. Gursikhs learn from each other under the guidence of guru sahib.

Bhul Chuk Maaf veer jio,

Kawaljit Singh

Bhai KawalJit Singh Jeeo,

I agree with some of the things you have said, but personally I do not consider words such as Durga, Ram Chander, NarSingh etc to mean Nirgun saroop of WaaheGuru. Instead I consider them to be historical characters who were blessed to destroy "dusht" and protect the Bhagats, but these individuals were never WaaheGuru.
In Gurbani, the word Shiva when referring to Nirgun saroop is referring WaaheGuru not Shiva the father of Ganesh. In Gurbani, these characters are not given the nirgun form. For example
ਲਈ ਭਗਉਤੀ ਦੁਰਗਸਾਹਿ ਵਰਜਾਗਣਿ ਭਾਰੀ ॥

In the above verse, Bhagautee and Durga cannot be referring to Nirgun Saroop. If so
the pangti would not make sense. Instead Bhagatuee is manifested Nirgun saroop which is held by the
hand ( sargun saroop) of Durga.

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh.

SGGS Jee on color --not against the thread in any way - just thought i mention it.


ਜਿਉ ਉਬਲੀ ਮਜੀਠੈ ਰੰਗੁ ਗਹਗਹਾ ਤਿਉ ਸਚੇ ਨੋ ਜੀਉ ਦੇਇ ॥ ਰੰਗਿ ਚਲੂਲੈ ਅਤਿ ਰਤੀ ਸਚੇ ਸਿਉ ਲਗਾ ਨੇਹੁ ॥
Ji▫o ublī majīṯẖai rang gahgahā ṯi▫o sacẖe no jī▫o ḏe▫e. Rang cẖalūlai aṯ raṯī sacẖe si▫o lagā nehu.

(Jio) the way when a fabric (ubli) is boiled with the roots (majeethai) of the mqjeetha plant it gets a (gahgaha) deep red (rang) color, (tio) similarly we should (de-i) give our (jio) minds i.e. submit ourselves to (sach-e) the Eternal Master sincerely to experience Divine bliss;
the soul that has (nehu) love (sio = with) for (sach-e) the Eternal Master, is (rati = dyed) imbued with (chaloolai) the deep color of Divine (rang) love. ---

Ns SIngh Jeeo,

the Gurbani quotes you have provide are in relation to the color of Naam not
the color of Khalsa Uniform. Gurbani in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji does not mention
color of Khalsa you have to read rehat maryada to find the color of Khalsa ( Akalee Roop)
ex.ਸੋ ਅਕਾਲੀ ਰੂਪ ਹੈ ਨੀਲ ਬਸਤ੍ਰ ਧਹਿਰਾਇ
Bhai Daya SIngh Ji rehatnama

Bhai Sukhdeep singh jeo,

I never mentioned at one place that durga, ram chandar, narsingh are waheguru . I will leave this topic here as there is no point in stretching it further.

Dass,

Kawaljit Singh

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ke Fateh

Bha Sukhdeep Singh Jeeo, by mentioning the quote I wasn't in any form challenging the wearing of blue-- but when discussing or debating what to wear we have to consider other parmaans on clothing and looks too for .eg. here are some more

Bhai Gurdaas Jee Quotes:

guramukh varan avaran hoe ra(n)g sura(n)g tha(n)bol parachai||
Gurmukhs go beyond the castes, colours and go about in equanimity like the red colour of betel leaf.

SGGS- Guru Nanak Dev Jee:panna 225:
choaa cha(n)dhan a(n)k charraavo ||

I may anoint my limbs with sandalwood oil.

paatt patta(n)bar pehir hadtaavo ||

I may dress up and wear silk and satin clothes.
bin har naam kehaa sukh paavo ||1||

But without the Lord's Name, where would I find peace? ||1||
kiaa pehiro kiaa oudt dhikhaavo ||

So what should I wear? In what clothes should I display myself?

SGGS:

bahuthae vaes karee pir baajhahu mehalee lehaa n thhaaou ||

I dress in various clothes, but without my Beloved, I shall not find a place in the Mansion of His Presence.

bhagat Ravidaas Jee:

pehiraavaa dhaekhae oobh jaahi ||

Seeing your clothes, you are so proud of yourself.



The reason I mention these are on the contrary ,I mean there is a lot of youth in BANA these days but with great amount of haume and ego and not an inklin of Sikhi on the inside-- not saying that to any one here but menitoning it and above the quotes the humility required by wearing bana is of extreme importance.

NS Singh Jeeo

All of the GUrbani quotes you have provided have nothing to do with BaNa. So
it does not make sense for you to keep quoting Gurbani which are not even
remotely related to BaNa. Its like me saying Khalsa should not be shasterdhari
instead they should be pacifist , because of the following Gurbani verses.

ਸੁੱਧ ਸਿਪਾਹ ਦੁਰੰਤ ਦੁਬਾਹ ਸੁ ਸਾਜ ਸਨਾਹ ਦੁਰਜਾਨ ਦਲੈਂਗੇ ॥
ਭਾਰੀ ਗੁਮਾਨ ਭਰੇ ਮਨ ਮੈਂ ਕਰ ਪਰਬਤ ਪੰਖ ਹਲੇ ਨ ਹਲੈਂਗੇ ॥
ਤੋਰਿ ਅਰੀਨ ਮਰੋਰਿ ਮਵਾਸਨ ਮਾਤੇ ਮਤੰਗਨ ਮਾਨ ਮਲੈਂਗੇ ॥
ਸ੍ਰੀ ਪਤਿ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਭਗਵਾਨ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਬਿਨੁ ਤਿਆਗਿ ਜਹਾਨ ਨਿਦਾਨ ਚਲੈਂਗੇ ॥੫॥੨੫॥


If some youth have ego when wearing BaNa this doesnt mean BaNa should not be worn.
Some youth also have ego when doing Kirtan, Paath, Amrit Vela etc . Does this mean we should
avoid these too. We all know Humility is a Gurmat Virtue which is needed for all whether they wear
BaNa or not. The biggest humility is obeying the Hukums of Guru Sahib.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ke Fateh

Bhai Sukhdeep Singh Jee- rest assured I in no way have mentioned or mean to mention BANA should not be worn or Khalsa should not obey rehit.


EGO --in kirtan, nitnem- paathj etc.etc question do you think Raag kirtan as opposed to AKJ style - which one is done more ego--i.e which one suppoRt ego support devices and which doesn't ?? not going off topic but certainly for another thread.

ns Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ke Fateh

>
> EGO --in kirtan, nitnem- paathj etc.etc question
> do you think Raag kirtan as opposed to AKJ style -
> which one is done more ego--i.e which one suppoRt
> ego support devices and which doesn't ?? not going
> off topic but certainly for another thread.



I dont want to start a debate but to answer your question briefly
read the words of a Mahapursh

ਰਾਗ ਵਿਦਿਆ ਰੋਗ ਰੂਪ ਹੈ, ਜੋ ਰਾਗ ਅਭਿਮਾਨੀ ਬਣਾ ਦਿੰਦੀ ਹੈ
Bhai Randhir SIngh Ji

If Classical kirtan/instruments lead to ego and dont increase love for WaaheGuru then they are much
worser then modern Instrument and Akhand Kirtan style kirtan which is done in sangat and meant to increase
love for Waaheguru.

On a personal note my favorite to listen to is Akhand Kirtan as this method was
created by Guru Sahib since the emphasis on praise and Gurbani and not Raag.
Vaja does not support ego devices. In the past classical instruments like string
instruments like sitar were preferred over percussive instruments like vaja and chhaneey
to prevent people from dancing and turning Gurbani Kirtan into Sangeet race ( music to dance to)
which was common in the Hindu and Sufi faiths. This does not mean all kirtan was done
with classical instruments or in Raag.For example, when Singhs were in the jungles and and in
kila they did not use classical instruments when reciting Chandi Di Vaar. Instead they used percussive
instruments like Nagara to Singh Gurbani. To say one instrument causes more ego then an other is foolish and
Im not interested in debating such things.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ke Fateh

Thank you very much for your input Bhai Sukhdeep Singh Jeeo-- I enjoy prefer both styles as each has a benefit.And I agree and don't want to debate either - as the Ego thing is pretty ugly...

Quote
Sukhdeep
Vaja does not support ego devices. In the past classical instruments like string
instruments like sitar were preferred over percussive instruments like vaja and chhaneey
to prevent people from dancing and turning Gurbani Kirtan into Sangeet race ( music to dance to)
which was common in the Hindu and Sufi faiths. This does not mean all kirtan was done
with classical instruments or in Raag.For example, when Singhs were in the jungles and and in
kila they did not use classical instruments when reciting Chandi Di Vaar. Instead they used percussive
instruments like Nagara to Singh Gurbani. To say one instrument causes more ego then an other is foolish and
Im not interested in debating such things.

God knows better where you come up with you own " highly innovative stories" from .

Keertan was done using string instruments only during all Guru Sahibans time up till mid 19th Century. As a matter of fact Guru HarGobind Sahib maharaj himself invented Taus.
Guru Gobind Singh Sahib maharaj himself did Asa Di Vaar keertan on a string instrument at Amriwela on the day Khalsa left Fort of Sri Anandpur Sahib on the banks of Sirsa river.

Vaja(harmonium) was invented in 1840's. It was introduced to to India by Christian Missionaries in mid 19th Century.(as Piano wasn't easily portable).
A simple search on wikipedia alone can shed light.

Another thing is, you seem to have your "own set of interpretation" on whatever Bhai Sahib says in his books.

Quote
Sukhdeep
If Classical kirtan/instruments lead to ego and dont increase love for WaaheGuru then they are much
worse then modern Instrument and Akhand Kirtan style kirtan which is done in sangat and meant to increase
love for Waaheguru.

Quote
Bhai Sahib Jee
ਰਾਗ ਵਿਦਿਆ ਰੋਗ ਰੂਪ ਹੈ, ਜੋ ਰਾਗ ਅਭਿਮਾਨੀ ਬਣਾ ਦਿੰਦੀ ਹੈ
Bhai Randhir SIngh Ji

The whole point of keertan is attaching ones surtee to shabad. If one is engrossed in more in Raag which will lead one to pride, then the whole point of doing keertan is lost. It's simple as that.
Even current day keertanis in Jatha are engrossed in 'catchy tunes'(which wasn't prominent in puratan days) which does lead to ego when they are showered with praise alongside with the disease of fan-ism.

Chota veer

Pardeep Singh Jeeo,

I think you are getting too excited for no apparent reason. I made three simple claims.

1) Classical Instruments like Sitar are ancient instruments while instruments like the Vaja
are fairly new ( modern)
- I have said Akhand Kirtani use " Modern Instruments" and I was referring to Vaja.

2) Khalsa panth did not always use classical instruments when singing Gurbani
ex- when Khalsa was victorious or going into battle they would sing bani from Sri Dasam Granth
by using Nagara ( non-classical instrument) . Nagara is an upbear percussive instrument.

3) Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir SIngh was not so enthusiastic about Classical Raag
read Gurmat Lekh (section about kirtan). If Bhai Saihb was a big fan of classical kirtan
then please provide a reference.

I think you have misunderstood what I have said and think I was saying Vaja was available during time of Guru Sahiban.
Let me clear things up. What I was meant to say is classical instruments ( predominantly string instruments) were chosen over upbeat instruments (percussive instruments) to prevent the masses from turning Gurbani Kirtan into Sangeet
Raas in which the people would dance to Religious hymns like like they do in Hindu and Sufi faith. Dancing is manmat and is prohibited in Gurmat faith.

Percussive instruments are more upbeat while classical instruments are more mellow which makes it impossible for one to dance too; thus, at that time when it was popular to dance to Religious hymns the adoption of classical instruments were more appropriate at that time. My point being is whatever instrument
one uses is irrelevant in Gurbani Kirtan.
ਕਰ ਕਰਿ ਤਾਲ ਪਖਾਵਜੁ ਨੈਨਹੁ ਮਾਥੈ ਵਜਹਿ ਰਬਾਬਾ ॥

Bhai Sahibs view of Kirtan are quite clear. He mentions Kirtan should be akhand ( unbroken) and not be broken with kachi bani. Kachi bani being ( ba ne sa sa sa sa..) If some kirtani has knowledge of Raag (ਰਾਗ ਵਿਦਿਆ) thats great,but for Gods sake there is no reason to announce it in Sri Darbar Sahib amongst sangat. This is pure ego. Nor does anyone want to hear the kirtanis range of voice in Sri DarbarSahib. We all come to listen to and sing the Hukums of Guru Sahib.

ਸਤਸੰਗਤਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਚਟਸਾਲ ਹੈ ਜਿਤੁ ਹਰਿ ਗੁਣ ਸਿਖਾ ॥


Again I have my personal views of Raag and I really have no reason to debate about it. If someone likes classical raag and feels closer to kirtan that great and good for them.