Is Sikhi failing

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That's why I started questioning the big jathebandis. These organisations set such high standards and expectations in terms of rehat but their membership is failing the jathebandis.

You are opening a big can of worms by asking this question because the root causes of this very problem lie within the same jathas resulting in the prevailing pathetic condition of the Panth. Again, this post is simply my opinions and my statements are general not specific to any jatha because the problem is panth wide.

The biggest reason for the problem is that Sikhs at large have started to lay emphasis on external physical appearance and actions. We consider bana, big dumalla, longer kirpan etc. to be the signs of one’s certitude of faith while they may be lacking inner gurmat qualities. This attitude has further crept into our rehat. When we see someone observing a strict rehat like amrit vela at 2am, sarabloh bibek etc. we form an opinion that such a person is a great gursikh. However, when we observe them committing an anti-gurmat act (such as asking caste names) we start to question the validity or effects of rehat. The problem is not the rehat or a person practicing it. The problem lies with implementation of rehat in day to day life. Rehat no matter how strict has become a mere physical external exercise for many either to show off or “fit in”. They fail to apply it in their regular lifestyle.

Whereas in gurmat, our love for Guru Sahib should flow from inside to outward exhibiting more and more rehat, we have taken the reverse trend. We have reduced rehat including naam simran to mechanical exercises which have very little internal effect. We are focused more on deliberately showing physical movements and making loud noises during simran than having them spontaneously. One can’t inspire love in the heart by keeping external rehat but internal love surely results in strict rehat. This is why Gurbani repeatedly condemns pure physical acts and does not explicitly mention keeping kakkars. We lack to implement rehat and Gurbani principles in our lifestyle to change our habits, thinking and approach to daily solutions. We simply do the rehat not apply it to our jeevan. We do amrit vela and nitnem in the morning and then go back to daily bad habits of cracking jokes using Gurbani, making fun of other gursikhs and belittling other jathas. It was due to this very reason that some black cats were able to mimic strict external rehat and destroy us from within. Lack of implementation has resulted in rigid mindset, haughty behavior, ego inflation and disunity. We can blame the enemies for our loss and destruction but we can’t blame them for our diminished chardi kala for we ourselves are responsible for such a tragic condition. This is why we have failed to make a stronger come back after 1984 holocaust and the fall of movement in the early 90s.

Simply put, we lack love for our Guru, Panth and other Sikhs. If we sincerely loved rehat, we would be showing our love to other Sikhs and embracing them despite some differences on controversial points. This not being the case shows that we treat rehat and gursikhi as if they were our proprietary and not blessings of Guru Sahib. We use our rehat standard as the measuring stick for all others. When a mona takes Amrit, he becomes haughty and when an Amritdhari starts waking up early and keeping bibek, he becomes arrogant. Both fail to understand the principles behind the rehat and transform themselves into proper gursikhs.

The jathas divisions have become a disease. It started in Punjab and the Sikhs outside became the target of those who came from Punjab. Instead of taking advantage of the freedom and providing guidance to the younger generation to become better gursikhs, the jatha mentality people instead planted their own seeds of discord, disunity, intolerant and hatred which are detrimental to the cohesion of the Khalsa Panth. They will narrate eye-witness accounts of important events and shower praises on themselves and their own jatha Sikhs but belittle others. Little does anyone care to pay attention to the fact that the ones being belittled have sacrificed their lives while the one admiring his own feats is still alive. They did less of educating and more of spreading controversial issues. The young Sikhs who don’t even know the basic meanings of Mool Mantar are brainwashed in taking a side on controversial points. This becomes their criteria in choosing friends and sangat. Hence, the elders ensure disunity of the Panth for the next half century. The next generation grows up to be no different. Then children are taught the same way. One jatha gets thrilled when another jatha is attacked. If this wasn’t enough we engage in “bhai sahib” vs. “sant ji” vs. “baba ji” war like the other side is the sworn enemy and the “defeat” will result in our jatha leader’s status being reduced from “brahmgyani” to an ordinary gursikh. We fail to see beyond AKJ, Taksal, Nanaksar etc. One jatha’s Amrit is considered invalid by another yet some from the same jatha will go pesh at “invalid” Amrit smagam to confess their misdeeds. Many are keen on having newcomers take Amrit from their jatha to swell up their own ranks like it is a contest. And all this for what? To convert one to agree on jatha’s stance on controversial points and everything stops there. No attempt of gurbani veechar, self-evaluation to reform the character, doing genuine parchaar to non-Sikhs, seeking answers to common questions, dispelling misconceptions about Sikhi etc.

There are many more reasons but we lack simple qualities like open-mindedness, tolerance, love, compassion, rationality, communication and inter-personal skills and skills to do actual veechar. Unless we change ourselves there is no hope. Very rare are those who strive to become proper gursikhs. True gursikhs exist in all jathas but many of them hold no power or influence in making jatha wide change. We must think of the progress of the Panth first and leave our jathas behind. There has to be a collective effort to make the change happen. This will be progressive and productive. Again, my comments are not directed towards any particular jatha nor am I an outside observer. I am writing from “been there done that” experience. Apologies for any offence. Guru Rakha

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SAB GURU PYAREO SIKH KAUM, PANTH LAI GURU SHABAD LAHA ATEY GYAN...

Bhul chuk muaf Guru Granth Sahib Jio atey Sab Sikh Kaum _/\_
I was rolling in dust of maya...now His Pavitr Puneet Hand leads this pappi murakh as I struggle to overcome weakness within...ardas same for all...

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

You laugh Mehtab Singh, but I shudder that this issue one day becomes another Tat and Bandai Khalsa type decision.

Anyways, Kabaddi is two teams - you need a WWE Royal Rumble style match anyways - every Jathebandi for itself. Last Jathebandi is the Real Sikh.

Another excellent post by Bhai Bijla Singh Ji.

Inter jatha competitions on whose dominant figure, literature and rehat is the best is a disgrace and it’s a shame that some cannot see past this blinkered vision and spew venom against others either openly or within their hearts. Think I’ve been fortunate not to come across anyone in India who is so stuck in their ways and find them to be more embracing. Howverer what I see is that minor disparities in rehat are blown out of proportion in the west. Instead of celebrating quality attributes of each jatha more focus is on the negatives and attacking other Gursikhs who also are core to the fabric of the Panth.

Vaheguru!

Bhai Bijla Singh's post smashed it, and reminded me of the following Shabad

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ਰਾਗੁ ਆਸਾ ਘਰੁ ੨ ਮਹਲਾ ੪ ॥
Raag Aasaa, Second House, Fourth Mehl:

ਕਿਸ ਹੀ ਧੜਾ ਕੀਆ ਮਿਤ੍ਰ ਸੁਤ ਨਾਲਿ ਭਾਈ ॥
Some form alliances with friends, children and siblings.

ਕਿਸ ਹੀ ਧੜਾ ਕੀਆ ਕੁੜਮ ਸਕੇ ਨਾਲਿ ਜਵਾਈ ॥
Some form alliances with in-laws and relatives.

ਕਿਸ ਹੀ ਧੜਾ ਕੀਆ ਸਿਕਦਾਰ ਚਉਧਰੀ ਨਾਲਿ ਆਪਣੈ ਸੁਆਈ ॥
Some form alliances with chiefs and leaders for their own selfish motives.

ਹਮਾਰਾ ਧੜਾ ਹਰਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਮਾਈ ॥੧॥
My alliance is with the Lord, who is pervading everywhere. ||1||

ਹਮ ਹਰਿ ਸਿਉ ਧੜਾ ਕੀਆ ਮੇਰੀ ਹਰਿ ਟੇਕ ॥
I have formed my alliance with the Lord; the Lord is my only support.

ਮੈ ਹਰਿ ਬਿਨੁ ਪਖੁ ਧੜਾ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਕੋਈ ਹਉ ਹਰਿ ਗੁਣ ਗਾਵਾ ਅਸੰਖ ਅਨੇਕ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Other than the Lord, I have no other faction or alliance; I sing of the countless and endless Glorious Praises of the Lord. ||1||Pause||

ਜਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਸਿਉ ਧੜੇ ਕਰਹਿ ਸੇ ਜਾਹਿ ॥
Those with whom you form alliances, shall perish.

ਝੂਠੁ ਧੜੇ ਕਰਿ ਪਛੋਤਾਹਿ ॥
Making false alliances, the mortals repent and regret in the end.

ਥਿਰੁ ਨ ਰਹਹਿ ਮਨਿ ਖੋਟੁ ਕਮਾਹਿ ॥
Those who practice falsehood shall not last.

ਹਮ ਹਰਿ ਸਿਉ ਧੜਾ ਕੀਆ ਜਿਸ ਕਾ ਕੋਈ ਸਮਰਥੁ ਨਾਹਿ ॥੨॥
I have formed my alliance with the Lord; there is no one more powerful than Him. ||2||

ਏਹ ਸਭਿ ਧੜੇ ਮਾਇਆ ਮੋਹ ਪਸਾਰੀ ॥
All these alliances are mere extensions of the love of Maya.

ਮਾਇਆ ਕਉ ਲੂਝਹਿ ਗਾਵਾਰੀ ॥
Only fools argue over Maya.

ਜਨਮਿ ਮਰਹਿ ਜੂਐ ਬਾਜੀ ਹਾਰੀ ॥
They are born, and they die, and they lose the game of life in the gamble.

ਹਮਰੈ ਹਰਿ ਧੜਾ ਜਿ ਹਲਤੁ ਪਲਤੁ ਸਭੁ ਸਵਾਰੀ ॥੩॥
My alliance is with the Lord, who embellishes all, in this world and the next. ||3||

ਕਲਿਜੁਗ ਮਹਿ ਧੜੇ ਪੰਚ ਚੋਰ ਝਗੜਾਏ ॥
In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, the five thieves instigate alliances and conflicts.

ਕਾਮੁ ਕ੍ਰੋਧੁ ਲੋਭੁ ਮੋਹੁ ਅਭਿਮਾਨੁ ਵਧਾਏ ॥
Sexual desire, anger, greed, emotional attachment and self-conceit have increased.

ਜਿਸ ਨੋ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਕਰੇ ਤਿਸੁ ਸਤਸੰਗਿ ਮਿਲਾਏ ॥
One who is blessed by the Lord's Grace, joins the Sat Sangat, the True Congregation.

ਹਮਰਾ ਹਰਿ ਧੜਾ ਜਿਨਿ ਏਹ ਧੜੇ ਸਭਿ ਗਵਾਏ ॥੪॥
My alliance is with the Lord, who has destroyed all these alliances. ||4||

ਮਿਥਿਆ ਦੂਜਾ ਭਾਉ ਧੜੇ ਬਹਿ ਪਾਵੈ ॥
In the false love of duality, people sit and form alliances.

ਪਰਾਇਆ ਛਿਦ੍ਰੁ ਅਟਕਲੈ ਆਪਣਾ ਅਹੰਕਾਰੁ ਵਧਾਵੈ ॥
They complain about other peoples' faults, while their own self-conceit only increases.

ਜੈਸਾ ਬੀਜੈ ਤੈਸਾ ਖਾਵੈ ॥
As they plant, so shall they harvest.

ਜਨ ਨਾਨਕ ਕਾ ਹਰਿ ਧੜਾ ਧਰਮੁ ਸਭ ਸ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਜਿਣਿ ਆਵੈ ॥੫॥੨॥੫੪॥
Servant Nanak has joined the Lord's alliance of Dharma, which shall conquer the whole world. ||5||2||54||

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akaal74
I have seen hundreds of sikhs who never miss amritvela... always attend every samagams... keep all kind of rehat... but they eventually are jatt, ramgarhia or something when it comes to dealing with marriages in their families. Why their jeevan has become spiritual in all ther realms but not in this basic of sikhism principle....

The reality is that their internal jeevan has not become truly spiritual otherwise they would not be touched by the filth of the caste system. Never mind believe in the caste system, it is a grave sin in Gurmat to even ask someone their caste:

ਜਾਣਹੁਜੋਤਿਨਪੂਛਹੁਜਾਤੀਆਗੈਜਾਤਿਨਹੇ॥੧॥ਰਹਾਉ॥

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MB Singh
1 There are only rare gursikhs who have attained Spiritual Upliftment up to a level, where social taboos are thrown away like waste materials. Most of us are cowards.

I fully agree with that.

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MB Singh
Sometimes the children are much more bold in their decisions as casteless society, but the parents are not so. Obedient Amritdhari children have to obey their parents.

This is a lamentable statement. Who should be disobeyed, Satguru or parents? For faithful Sikhs of Guru Sahib, this is not even a question.

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gk
The answers I got from my elders including very chardi kala gursikhs is as follow:
Gursikhs are not supposed to hate anybody or think person is inferior or not eat from them because they belong to low caste however when its the marraige time the scenario is different because gursikhs are trying to find someone who has been brought up in similar environment as their kids. The fear that the their daughter or son will not be able to adjust to other family's way of living makes Gursikh seek someone within their own caste as they feel secure in making that decision.
Is this correct? I do not know, its hard for me to blame this thinking of gursikhs, they are not showing bias in other treatment, its just marriage they show this bias because they are worried about the future of their kid and want the marriage to be succesful. Does marriage within caste guarantees success? NO but that is how we have been for genrations.

This type of excuse is often heard made by those who outwardly may appear to be “chardikalaa”, but inwardly, are engrossed in the egotistical brahminical pride of caste. What difference would there be in “way of living” between an ideal Gursikh family, one of so-called “high caste” and another of so-called “low caste”? There would not be one. By using the false pretence of excuses like “raised in the same way” people seek marriages based on caste: by “raised in the same way” or same “way of living” they actually mean someone who also subscribes to and practices the detestable caste system. How can the principles of Sikhi be different or altered just to suit the marriage scenario? This is nothing but a sham excuse. Those making these excuses should just plainly admit that they believe in the vile caste system and they seek marriages based on it.

I feel ashamed reading the juvenile contemptuousness shown by Singh_91 in his posts.

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Kulbir Singh
When getting married, due consideration should be given to Rehit compatibility of Singh and Bibi; otherwise, Rehit differences can lead to conflicts within the marriage. We have seen many marriages getting into trouble because of this.

Another point to note is that when unmarried people get Pesh to get Amrit, one of the condition that Punj Pyare lay is that their future life partner should be of ਸਮ ਰਹਿਤ (same Rehit). So when getting married, it should be ensured that both Singh and Bibi follow the same Rehit. Rest Guru Sahib knows the best.

Kulbir Singh

These days even big Sarbloh bibekis are getting divorced and married more than once. What does the principle of ਸਮ ਰਹਿਤ count for in those situations? In my opinion, it counts for nothing because either one or both of the spouses did not even have the basic Gurmat qualities required to make the marriage work. As well as caste pride, nowadays many also have “rehit pride” which causes the same problems. Just as someone engrossed in caste pride cannot see beyond caste and seeks marriage matches exclusively based on caste, those with “rehit pride” seek marriage matches exclusively based on outward appearance of rehit. Neither followers of “caste pride” or “rehit pride” bother to look at the crucial Gurmat qualities of a Gursikh like humility, sweet speech, forgiveness, and a genuine desire to meet Vaheguru.

The caste system is one of the major defining factors of bipran ki reet. Those who indulge in it, lose the protection of Siri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib Jee:

ਜਬ ਲਗ ਖ਼ਾਲਸਾ ਰਹੇ ਨਿਆਰਾ ॥
ਤਬ ਲਗ ਤੇਜ ਕੀਉ ਮੈਂ ਸਾਰਾ ॥
ਜਬ ਇਹ ਗਹੈ ਬਿਪਰਨ ਕੀ ਰੀਤ ॥
ਮੈਂ ਨ ਕਰੋਂ ਇਨ ਕੀ ਪ੍ਰਤੀਤ ॥

To answer the question posed in the title of the topic, Sikhi is definitely not failing. It never has been failing and never will. What is failing, has always failed, and will continue to fail in the future, are the bhekhi mayadhari akhouti Sikhs.

ਭੁਲਾਂ ਚੁਕਾਂ ਦੀ ਖਿਮਾ

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These days even big Sarbloh bibekis are getting divorced and married more than once. What does the principle of ਸਮ ਰਹਿਤ count for in those situations? In my opinion, it counts for nothing because either one or both of the spouses did not even have the basic Gurmat qualities required to make the marriage work.

The principle of ਸਮ ਰਹਿਤ is a Gurmat principle that one is given Hukam to follow at the time one gets Amrit. Therefore, this is not negotiable or debatable. As for "even big Sarbloh bibekis" getting divorced, the reason for this is not their Rehit. If both husband and wife are of ਸਮ ਰਹਿਤ, then there is one less point of division; therefore, it reduces the likelihood of a divorce but we do accept that having ਸਮ ਰਹਿਤ alone does not ensure success in marriage and no one has asserted this way. The reason for "big Sarbloh bibekis" getting divorced is definitely not because they were following Rehit. It would be good if you talk to such Sarblohi Gursikh who had a divorce, to get a first hand information on such case. Don't base your opinion on basis of other people's opinions and don't discredit Rehit for wrongdoings of one or two people. Remember that Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh jee too was a fully Rehitvaan Gurmukh and so were many other Brahmgyanis. Following Rehit to the utmost can only bring happiness.

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As well as caste pride, nowadays many also have “rehit pride” which causes the same problems. Just as someone engrossed in caste pride cannot see beyond caste and seeks marriage matches exclusively based on caste, those with “rehit pride” seek marriage matches exclusively based on outward appearance of rehit..

Why are you being so judgemental by saying "those with “rehit pride” seek marriage matches exclusively based on outward appearance of rehit." Which Rehitvaan Gursikh would not want to get married to a person who is equally Rehitvaan? And which Rehitvaan Gursikh would ignore other Gurmat qualities like humility, sweet talk etc.?

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Neither followers of “caste pride” or “rehit pride” bother to look at the crucial Gurmat qualities of a Gursikh like humility, sweet speech, forgiveness, and a genuine desire to meet Vaheguru

Again, you are being extremely judgemental by giving "Fatwa" that all Gursikhs who keep Rehit don't bother to look beyond Rehit for Gurmat qualities. I am not sure how many Rehitvaan Gursikhs you have done Sangat with, but I can say this with full confidence that you have formed a very wrong opinion about Rehitvaan Gursikhs looking for Rehitvaan spouses.

Bashing Rehitvaan Gursikhs by equating them to those people who take pride in their caste is doing no service to Panth. Guru Sahib has declared that "Rehit bina na Sikh kahaave" (without Rehit one cannot be called a Sikh). So keeping Rehit is not important but mandatory. The second thing is that it's not the Rehit that brings pride or haume but not doing enough Amritvela Abhyaas, Simran during the day, and a lot of Gurbani Paath, that brings Haume.

Kulbir Singh

Bhai Trust Singh jee

Forgive me if I misunderstood your message, and please correct me if I am wrong.

Sikhi teaches nimarta. If I am not keeping certain Gurmat Rehits, it is my weakness and my own inability to do so. It is not the fault of the Gurmat Rehit, nor does it mean I have any right to degrade any Rehit. We cannot claim that it is because of a particular Rehit that a specific person is good/bad. Nor can we claim that "thus this Rehit has no use".

ਸਾਂਨੂੰ ਆਪਣੀ ਕਮਜ਼ੋਰੀ ਕਬੂਲ ਕਰਨੀ ਚਾਹੀਦੀ ਹੈ, ਤੇ ਗੁਰੂ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਦਾ ਓਟ ਆਸਰਾ ਲੈ ਕੇ ਉਹਨਾ ਦੇ ਚਰਣਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਅਰਦਾਸ ਬੇਨਤੀ ਕਰਣੀ ਚਾਹੀਦੀ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਸੱਚੇ ਪਾਤਿਸ਼ਾਹ ਆਪ ਸਾਡੀਆਂ ਕਮਜ਼ੋਰਿਆਂ ਦੂਰ ਕਰਕੇ ਸਾਂਨੂੰ ਹੋਰ ਵਧ ਰਹਿਤਵਾਨ ਜੀਵਨ ਦੀ ਦਾਤ ਬਖਸ਼ਣ |

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

Das must be blessed in his Anand Karaj - for many years, we had different Rehats per the technical details, but never had an issue with my spouse nor her with me when it came to Sikhi (this is no longer the case, Guru Sahib's Hukam). Because, generally, it was the same - Amritvela, Simran, Nitnem, Paath, Keertan, Seva etc.

Honestly, how much problems are you all seeing out there with Rehat differences in Gursikhs? Do you all debate your spouses over these trivial issues that they are becoming issues - has anyone actually investigated this? I mean do they take Kirpans out over Raagmalaa and challenge each other to Gatka duels - I would think this is reconciled before marriage, no? If we have Gursikhs who are doing swas-swas Simran in Gurdwaras and non Amritdharis are walking in, would you have to separate yourself from your spouse to do Simran because she/he doesn't share the same technique? As long as both are not conducting acts that one or the other's Rehat calls a Bujjar Kurehit (and that would be meat), what would be the incompatibility? Can you not iron out these issues beforehand from marriage - marriage is all about give and take and given that the Gursikhs should be trying to advance spiritually, surely they would be adapting the more stricter Rehat to each other so they can move forward? Keski, Mool Mantar, Raagmalaa are minor points in reality - I hate to say this. It is Hukam of Dasam Patshah to wear Dastaar, so that should remove all doubt. No Jathebandi can contend against this, Kakkar or not. Mool Mantar - will you explode if someone reads to Nanak Hosi Bhi Sach? Raagmalaa - work it out before marriage, seriously. While Jathebandi are staunch on their claims on Raagmalaa, the Panthic Maryada - SRM from SGPC, is clear that it can be recited or not. Sort it out beforehand. If both sides are staunch in any stance, then they truly should not get married as their will be issues.

Gursikho, we are on the cusp of becoming denominational like the Christian faith, which we really don't need. I agree that ਸਮ ਰਹਿਤ is definitely ideal, but if two Gursikhs of slightly different Rehats do get married (and let's take two strong Jathebandis - Taksal and AKJ) and they are quarreling, it most likely is not the Rehat, but the people. The divorces that I have heard of are either related to a severe issue or dhil in Rehat from either party leading to problem behavior with one of the individuals not being a Gursikh or a western mentality of marriage - not working at it or putting in any effort to reconcile differences and move forward (Bollywood/Hollywood type of approach).

Please Almighty - let the Panth make these issues go away. Pitaji and Mata Ji, your children squabble over scraps while they overlook the treasure of Gurbani and Kamai that they should be doing together.

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

"(this is no longer the case, Guru Sahib's Hukam)" - means that we have the same Rehat, not that we have problems now. Sorry, I re-read and that came out a bit vague.

Sad, this has turned into a heated debate. At this rate, us bachelors could be discouraged from getting married

Singh_91 ji,
Vahiguroo decides if you are to remain bachelor...
I perceive post replies as healthy discussion that should be discussed, then to each mind render acceptance with humility that all that is being stressed is rehit, and Gurbani kamai is all we Sikhs require to attain jodharia with Vahiguroo...and smooth marriage ji...
caste is hindu rule...I do not even know what caste I am, but I know I want to live rest of my jeevan as rehitvaan Gurmukh, because those blessed days I did maintain rehit discipline, my amritvela...life was super sucess, bliss...and my face glowed...as I am told by others, versus current situation of restless dead spirits clinging to me daily now due to weak rehit etc...

Bhul chuk muaf Vahiguroo...Antarjami Purakh Bhidatey, sarda man kee purey, nanak das eh hai sukh mangaih, mokou Santan Kee Thurey..._/\_

As this discussion has shifted towards marriage, gurmat and rehat; I like to add few words here.

Anand Karaj and married life afterwards; should also be treated as a REHAT. They call it GRASAT DHARAM. It had to be dutyfully taken to success as other REHATS. If one has to sacrifice a little or some of other rehats for a while; it should pay ultimately towards our religious life. As service to parents is a religious duty or activity or REHAT, similarly carrying or managing the married life to deep understanding with the spouse should also be considered as religious duty or REHAT.

Being simple human beings, having little requirements, may be of animal nature; makes us more religious sometimes.

I may be wrong.

Title - Sikhi is failing of this thread in incorrect - it should be Why are Sikhs failing to practice Sikhe.

Sikhe is not failing - Sikhee is the super nuclear and is growing at a pace beyond our imagination - You just need to take a deep breath , sit down
and just read compare Sikh history and compare with all other religions - when you compare what they did in their first 500 odd years on earth and compare to Guru Nanak Dev Jee's way of life since the last 500 years - we are at warp speed.

Care must be taken when writing and painting all Amritdharis with the same brush - all kaums have this issue of divorce but we are unique at discussing it slightly in a wrong manner. SIKH - is the superpower - and we mnust not forget there have been cases where there is a near case of divorce and they take the advice of Panj - and marriage is saved.

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

Sant Teja Singh once was asked by Sant Attar Singh Mastuana how many Sikhs there are in the world. Sant Teja Singh responded 40 lakhs (400,000). Sant Attar Singh Ji responded that he could only see 4 Sikhs in the world worthy of the description of "Khalsa" as outlined by Sahib Sri Gobind Singh Ji.

I wonder if there are even 4 now...

"Sikhe is not failing - Sikhee is the super nuclear and is growing at a pace beyond our imagination - You just need to take a deep breath , sit down
and just read compare Sikh history and compare with all other religions - when you compare what they did in their first 500 odd years on earth and compare to Guru Nanak Dev Jee's way of life since the last 500 years - we are at warp speed."

What is SIkhi? Sikhi is the Panth ( all Gursikhs) and if we are honest with ourselves then Sikhi is failing. If you study the history of other religions then you would know we are well behind. In fact, comparing our growth compare to other religions is a straight up embarassment! 300 years after Jesus's death all of the Roman Empire became Christians. The apostle Paul travelled thousands and thousands of miles spreading the Gospel of Jesus. Much less then 300 years after Muhammads death all of Arabia eventually became Muslims. 300 years after Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji where has the Nishan Sahib reached? Sikhi is not about numbers, but Guru Sahib is Jagat Guru and his message was attended for all four corners. Guru Sahib covered much ground spreading SIkhi and he created Manji System to spread Sikhi. Gurmukhs like Bhai Gurdas Ji were sent far and wide to spread Sikhi. We have not continued this legacy. The only people spreading Sikhi are the 3ho and they are spreading a very bizzare version of Sikhi.

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300 years after Jesus's death all of the Roman Empire became Christians. The apostle Paul travelled thousands and thousands of miles spreading the Gospel of Jesus. Much less then 300 years after Muhammads death all of Arabia eventually became Muslims.

Both Christianity and Islam used the sword and forced people to convert.

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We have not continued this legacy

Because we were busy continuing several others, such as the caste system and a whole range of unSikh practices that remain part of Punjabi/Indian culture and crept into Sikhs as well.

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The only people spreading Sikhi are the 3ho and they are spreading a very bizzare version of Sikhi.

There can be 3 reasons for this. (a.) They were not taught the "raw and real deal" to begin with. (b.) They were not ready to give up some of the beliefs they held before they took Amrit. (c.) They were not really/fully accepted as fellow Sikhs by the "mainstream" Punjabi Sikhs (believe it or not, it does happen ). So yes, they are probably spreading a bizzare version of Sikhi as you put it, but its not only them to blame, its me, you and the rest of us as well. First we let them be misled, and now we let them mislead.

On second thought, what about the missionaries who doubt Dasam Bani? They are called "missionaries" as if they went around converting people, but howcome you're not blaming them?

"Both Christianity and Islam used the sword and forced people to convert."

Not true. Paul and the apostles did not use the sword to convert the gentiles in the Graeco Roman world. Christianity religion became a state religion under Constantine. Constantine adopted Christianity for religious reasons. Christianity was already spreading in the Roman Empire through peaceful means before Constantines conversion. Constanine then decided to adopt this creed as a state religion, and only then did is spread through the sword.

"On second thought, what about the missionaries who doubt Dasam Bani? They are called "missionaries" as if they went around converting people, but howcome you're not blaming them?"

I dont know why and when the Sikh Missionaries adopted the term Missionary. But one thing for sure is they are not missionaries to the extent where they do parchar across four corners of the world like 3ho dies. 3ho goes to places across the globe spreading " Sikhi". Actually im not sure if they are spreading Sikhi or yoga. In Sikh history we have had periods when SIkhi spread at a mass level such as:
Sri Guru Nanak and Sri Guru Tegh Bahadur travelling to far locations
Banda Singh Bahadur in Punjab
Early Missals
Leadership of Maharaja Ranjit Singh
Singh Sabha Movement
Parchar during 70s and 80's.

Our generation ( our time) there is no real parchar at a mass level besides 3H0, and they are actually doing more damage to sikhi then good.

I also forgot to mention that during Manjit System under Sri Amar Das Ji which later developed into the Masand System then the Khalsa was a time of spreading Sikhi. Also, Dal Khalsa through Buddha Dal was a vibrant time of spreading the light of Gurmat. Sakhis mention Paira Mokha spread SIkhi in distant locations like Sri Lanka, but others question this.

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

Also, Bhul Chuk Muaff - I am no history expert or anyone qualified to dictate the future. Just my observations from my limited vision of other faiths and peoples around us and how we may learn from them.

Sukhdeep Singh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "Both Christianity and Islam used the sword and
> forced people to convert."
>
> Not true. Paul and the apostles did not use the
> sword to convert the gentiles in the Graeco Roman
> world. Christianity religion became a state
> religion under Constantine. Constantine adopted
> Christianity for religious reasons. Christianity
> was already spreading in the Roman Empire through
> peaceful means before Constantines conversion.
> Constanine then decided to adopt this creed as a
> state religion, and only then did is spread
> through the sword.
>
> "On second thought, what about the missionaries
> who doubt Dasam Bani? They are called
> "missionaries" as if they went around converting
> people, but howcome you're not blaming them?"
>
> I dont know why and when the Sikh Missionaries
> adopted the term Missionary. But one thing for
> sure is they are not missionaries to the extent
> where they do parchar across four corners of the
> world like 3ho dies. 3ho goes to places across the
> globe spreading " Sikhi". Actually im not sure if
> they are spreading Sikhi or yoga. In Sikh history
> we have had periods when SIkhi spread at a mass
> level such as:
> Sri Guru Nanak and Sri Guru Tegh Bahadur
> travelling to far locations
> Banda Singh Bahadur in Punjab
> Early Missals
> Leadership of Maharaja Ranjit Singh
> Singh Sabha Movement
> Parchar during 70s and 80's.
>
> Our generation ( our time) there is no real
> parchar at a mass level besides 3H0, and they are
> actually doing more damage to sikhi then good.


Vjkk VjkF

Bhai Sukhdeep Singh Jee - Please ponder below:

[www.thelatinlibrary.com]


Rest assured there is huge amount of parchar going on in SIkhe - however I will be first to admit it's not enought and it never will be my friend.
Acheivements for the world and universe - first 500 years no one can match Sikh Panth's contribution - perhaps when I meant "achievement "
i didnt mean for capital gain or for KURSEE manipulative current politics of the world at present - Khalsa shuns the kursee and has never desired for it, don;t need to give anyone a history lesson.

Character examplification of KHALSA is out there and as it grows it will no doubt have its effect. Rest assured Guru Nanak's Sikhe has it's own way - and doesnt depend opinions of such low lives like me or any historians and sceintists.

Lets also not forget the kind of times Sikhs had to face. They were hunted to be eliminated to the point of extinction! No other qaum faced these kind of days. And as far as battles are concerned, its not always victory that counts, but how quickly were we able to get back on our feet even after being hit by the worst types of onslaughts. Its not always victory that counts, but how justly/fairly/honestly the Singhs fought their battles.

The magnitude of fear those foreigners had for the Khalsa was much more than what they had for other Hindu martial races. You will never hear of Afghans putting a price on the head of a Maratha or Rajput. The tales of valor which the Singhs are known for is something those others could not even dream of.

Fighting battles is one thing. Winning them is something else. But its our Khalsa standards of integrity and Gurmat ideals of our character that made us outshine everyone else.

I am not at peace with what and how I wrote in the previous post’s paragraph beginning with “These days even big…” I am also saddened with how it was interpreted and thus responded to. Firstly I was thinking to reply with an expanded explanation of what I meant, but for fear of that also being misunderstood or causing offence I feel it would just be better to retract the entire paragraph, and apologize unreservedly and sincerely.

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I am not at peace with what and how I wrote in the previous post’s paragraph beginning with “These days even big…” I am also saddened with how it was interpreted and thus responded to. Firstly I was thinking to reply with an expanded explanation of what I meant, but for fear of that also being misunderstood or causing offence I feel it would just be better to retract the entire paragraph, and apologize unreservedly and sincerely.

Dear Veer, don't take my response personally. It's not meant to be that way. I responded only because I did not want people to get the impression that Sarbloh Rehit in any ways is causing a negative effect on people. Obeying Hukams of Guru Sahib always brings happiness.

My sincere apologies, if I misinterpreted your message.

Kulbir Singh

NS44, I dont really understand how that link is related to anything i have said? My simple point is Christianity did not always spread its faith through the sword. Early Chistianity through the 12 apostles and Paul spread the faith peacefully. Even today Christianity is spreading far and wide without the sword. People like Mother Teresa spread the faith through their goodness, humbleness, and detachment from materialism. We Sikhs can learn from such people. If we compare our faith sharing with their faith sharing then its an embarassing comparison. There are Christian Theology schools in most countries in the world. There are Christian charities in all countries in the world. On the other hand we have not taken up such measures. Part of Dasvand is intended for the parchar of Gurmat/Gurmat living. Yes, the best way to do parchar of SIkhi to seekers is by living SIkhi by personal example, and we dont want to dilute Sikhi just for numbers, but at the same time Gurmat institutions are needed. Todays Gurdwara Sahibs cant really be regarded as Gurmat insitutions promoting SIkhi. Most converts I have spoken to they have told me the thing which scared them most from being a Sikh was the treatment they received from certain Gurdwara Sahibs.

Sukhdeep Singh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> NS44, I dont really understand how that link is
> related to anything i have said?

no prolem .

My simple point
> is Christianity did not always spread its faith
> through the sword. Early Chistianity through the
> 12 apostles and Paul spread the faith peacefully.
> Even today Christianity is spreading far and wide
> without the sword.

I disagreee - in the UK i see as becoming defunct - and sikh growing by buying up old churches and building them into beautiful Gurdwaras.

People like Mother Teresa
> spread the faith through their goodness,
> humbleness, and detachment from materialism. We
> Sikhs can learn from such people. If we compare
> our faith sharing with their faith sharing then
> its an embarassing comparison. There are Christian
> Theology schools in most countries in the world.
> There are Christian charities in all countries in
> the world. On the other hand we have not taken up
> such measures. Part of Dasvand is intended for the
> parchar of Gurmat/Gurmat living. Yes, the best
> way to do parchar of SIkhi to seekers is by living
> SIkhi by personal example, and we dont want to
> dilute Sikhi just for numbers, but at the same
> time Gurmat institutions are needed.

I agree

Todays
> Gurdwara Sahibs cant really be regarded as Gurmat
> insitutions promoting SIkhi. Most converts I have
> spoken to they have told me the thing which scared
> them most from being a Sikh was the treatment they
> received from certain Gurdwara Sahibs.

Now that is where the Sikhs who are rehitvaan are failing them - as they cant be bothered to be involved with the politics to drive out the ols boaks who call themselves pardhaan. If there are enough good rehitvan Gursikhs who consitently contribute in the Gurdwara regardless then it wouldnt take long change the current typical set up.

. All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.