Need to help my friend

I know of a close friend who has taken Amrit and who daily does his Nitnem and Simran. A health problem has forced him to work a only few hours a week and is dependent on his wife's income to survive and to take of the household. He hardly gives his Daswandh (due to his financial problems) and he does not do any sewa or sit in Sangant. He has asked me for some help.

My question to the Sadh Sangat is if he were to give whatever he can as some form of Daswandh and were to use up whatever free time he has to do lots of Sewa - can this Sikh change his situation around?

Dasvand is the bare minimum for Gursikhs who can afford Dasvand. There is a hokum by Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji in Sri Guru Sobha which tells Gursikhs to give their vand according to their means. So if there is a wealthy Gursikhs and they can afford to donate 20 or 30 percent of their paycheck then by all means they should, but if they are a poor Gursikh and they cant afford Dasvand then they should still give according to their means . In the Gurus court a penny given with sincerity and humility is worth more then a million which is given in arrogance and show. Gursikhs who cant afford dasvand try to make more efforts in serving the sangat. If he was too do additional seva this to would be considered part of his dasvand because he is using his time in service of the sangat.

Most Gursikhs on here strongly believe Dasvandh is a must. The ten percent isn't ours to start with, what right do we have to keep it? I firmly believe that if a Gursikh is in a bad financial situation they should continue to give Dasvandh, this is the only way for them to turn their situation around. I have personally witnessed this myself with Gursikhs who continued to give Dasvandh despite their situations and soon enough Guru Sahib blessed them with more wealth.

Gagan Singh, ten percent of our check is not ours nor is 100 percent of our check every sinlge penny belongs to him. Dasvand is the standard amount or bare minimum every Gursikh should strive to give. This number was set by Sfri Guru Arjan Dev Ji at the request of Bhai Gurdas Ji. The number is set to give a standard . This doesnt mean we can give more or less if we cant afford dasvand. Shaheed Bhai Fauja Singh Ji would give 90 percent of his income the rest was just for his basic necessities. If one has more to give then they should if one doesnt have enough money to give dasvand then what can they do? Sri Guru Ji has given Hukum to give as much as one can afford. This means we shouldnt be cheap and just give dasvand if we can afford more nor does it mean we should not regard our vand as unaccepted if its not 10 percent. Some dont have enough to give dasvand after paying for their basic expenses. Many of the Shaheed Singhs of the 70s and 80s werent working because they were fighting for injustice so they couldnt afford to give Dasvand. Does this make them lesser Sikhs? WHen giving a Gursikh doesnt count he gives as much as he possiblly can whether it be a penny or whether it be thousands of dollars. This is why I think it funny when people ask whether dasvand should be calculated after taxes. Once we start counting our dasvand then we lose the main purpose. Nothing is ours to give to belong to in the first place.

I dont think you understand the original question. The person saying he doesnt have enough money to give as dasvand. There are many poor Gursikhs who cant afford dasvand. After they pay for their basic necessities they may not have enough left for dasvand. There are many Sakhis in which Gusikhs can only afford pennies to give and still Sri Guru Ji lovingly accepted their vand. If a person doesnt have enough money after they pay for their basic necessities then they shouldnt feel like lesser Sikhs. We are not Mormons where we have a counsel taxing us 10 percent of our income. Dasvand is given voluntarily and discreetly in the the Gurus Golak and its between the Guru and the Gursikh , Sri Guru Ji knows how much a person can afford and how sincere they are in giving their hard earned money. There are many Sakhis which mentions ones income wasnt given but instead other items such as weapons, horses, palki sahib, takht, etc. Vand Chhakna is not as black and white as you may think.

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The person saying he doesnt have enough money to give as dasvand. There are many poor Gursikhs who cant afford dasvand. After they pay for their basic necessities they may not have enough left for dasvand. There are many Sakhis in which Gusikhs can only afford pennies to give and still Sri Guru Ji lovingly accepted their vand. If a person doesnt have enough money after they pay for their basic necessities then they shouldnt feel like lesser Sikhs. We are not Mormons where we have a counsel taxing us 10 percent of our income. Dasvand is given voluntarily and discreetly in the the Gurus Golak and its between the Guru and the Gursikh , Sri Guru Ji knows how much a person can afford and how sincere they are in giving their hard earned money. There are many Sakhis which mentions ones income wasnt given but instead other items such as weapons, horses, palki sahib, takht, etc. Vand Chhakna is not as black and white as you may think.

There is no restriction as to how much one can give over and above the 10% of net income but one can't give less than 10% in Daswandh. One must just give the 10% of net income. There is no evidence anywhere in history where less Daswandh was allowed. Remember that Daswandh is not an offering or Daan but it is Guru jee's money to begin with. We have no right over it and when we give Daswandh, we should not think that we are making an offering to Guru Sahib. Offerings like Matha tek etc. is done over and above the Daswandh.

In many cases, Gursikhs who at a certain point can't take out the full ten percent, they note it down in their diary or records and then give out Daswandh at first opportunity. Normally, just as rent of the house has to be paid and one has no choice over it, same way Daswandh has to be given and one has no choice but to give. When a Gursikh takes out Daswandh with Shardha, then Guru Sahib gives support and one is able to give Daswandh against all odds.

Daswandh is part of the Rehit and one who does not give Daswandh, Bibeki Gursikhs don't accept food from that house.

Guru Sahib knows better.

Kulbir Singh

Kulbir Singh where are you learning these things that Matha Tekh offering was traditionally done outside of dasvand. Can you please quote a Rehat or sakhi which proves this? Traditioanlly Dasavand was given discreetly in the Gurus golak and spent through the discretion of the Panj. There are numerous Sakhis of poor Sikhs who gave what they could even though it didn't amount too 10 percent. A penny which is offered discreetly with humility in Sri Guru jis darbar is worth more then a million dollars offered with show. All of ones vand was traditionally offered in the Golak as this is the most discreet way to offer ones vand. If a person does not have ten percent to offer they cant offer. There are such thing as poor Sikhs who have nothing to offer. In fact, part of a Gursikhs Dasvand should be used for such poor Sikhs.

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Kulbir Singh where are you learning these things that Matha Tekh offering was traditionally done outside of dasvand. Can you please quote a Rehat or sakhi which proves this?

Daswandh is a Farz i.e. part of the Rehit; therefore it can't be offered as an offering. Of course, it's fine to put it in Golak but the Matha-tek offering is over and above Daswandh. Daswandh is not a Sikh's property to begin with, therefore, there is no question of using it as an offering to Guru Sahib.

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Traditioanlly Dasavand was given discreetly in the Gurus golak and spent through the discretion of the Panj. There are numerous Sakhis of poor Sikhs who gave what they could even though it didn't amount too 10 percent.

Of course even a less amount than 10% is accepted but please show us in which Saakhi it is mentioned that it's "Okay" to not pay full Daswandh or that one is excused from paying full Daswandh to Guru Sahib.

We have noticed that often people who are weak in a certain Rehit, try to discredit that Rehit. Giani Gian Singh was a opium addict and to justify his bad habit came up with a Saakhi showing that Siri Guru Dasmesh jee used to consume opium before going to wars. People who are dhillay in giving out full Daswandh often are seen trying to discredit this Rehit saying that it's not necessary to give out Daswandh if one is not rich enough. The definition of basic necessities differs person to person. This excuse can't be used for not giving out full Daswandh.

We should not innovate excuses to avoid Rehit. A person who does not take out Daswandh is not a Tyaar bar Tyaar Bibeki Sikh and as stated before, Bibeki Singhs don't eat from such person's home. If someone has a problem with taking out Daswandh, then he or she should present the case with Sangat or better with Punj Pyare and proceed accordingly. To act unilaterally and not take out full Daswandh, citing less income, is not Gurmat.

Kulbir Singh

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A penny which is offered discreetly with humility in Sri Guru jis darbar is worth more then a million dollars offered with show.

Sukhdeep Singh jeeo,

This is very true. For a Gursikh who only earns 10 cents, the penny that they give back to Guru Sahib as Daswand is worth more than millions because it is so much harder for them to fulfill the Hukam of giving Daswand.

Preetam Singh

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Of course even a less amount than 10% is accepted but please show us in which Saakhi it is mentioned that it's "Okay" to not pay full Daswandh or that one is excused from paying full Daswandh to Guru Sahib.

We have noticed that often people who are weak in a certain Rehit, try to discredit that Rehit. Giani Gian Singh was a opium addict and to justify his bad habit came up with a Saakhi showing that Siri Guru Dasmesh jee used to consume opium before going to wars. People who are dhillay in giving out full Daswandh often are seen trying to discredit this Rehit saying that it's not necessary to give out Daswandh if one is not rich enough. The definition of basic necessities differs person to person. This excuse can't be used for not giving out full Daswandh.

We should not innovate excuses to avoid Rehit. A person who does not take out Daswandh is not a Tyaar bar Tyaar Bibeki Sikh and as stated before, Bibeki Singhs don't eat from such person's home. If someone has a problem with taking out Daswandh, then he or she should present the case with Sangat or better with Punj Pyare and proceed accordingly. To act unilaterally and not take out full Daswandh, citing less income, is not Gurmat.

Kulbir Singh

Just to set the record we are not discrediting Dasvand nor are we making any excuses. We are fortunate to give at least dasvand with each pay check, but unfortunately some Gursikhs are not so fortunate to give dasvand some cant even afford Panj Kakkars how can we expect them to pay dasvand. Let me give an example. If someone makes 1000 dollars a month, but if their basic expenses such as rent/mortgage, bills, petrol to get to work , etc exceed 900 dollars. How can they afford dasvand? Others who are in jail, poor, or out of a job cannot pay full dasvand either. We are not making excuses. We are only trying to give practical advice to an injured Gursikh who cant make enough to pay full dasvand. For Gods sake if the poor man is injured we shouldn't look down on him or view him as a lesser Sikh. Sikhi is more then black and white rules. SRi Guru Ji is compassionate and understands everyones situations. If a Gursikhs gives all he has after taking care of his basic nececcsites which is a family duty then surely Sri Guru ji wont look down on him.

In regards, to Golak and dasvand. There are rehatname which clearly state " put dasvand in the Golak" Dasvand is meant to be given discreetly and not as a show . Its a tradition and well known that Singhs use to matha tekh to Sri Guru Ji they use to make whatever offerings they had. SInghs lived a simple life. They took care of their basic necessities and gave the rest to Sri Guru Ji. This is why the Hukum " give according tot what you have was understood" . It was common that SInghs would go to darbar daily and would make offering from their daily work to sangat. This would come in the form of money, food, weapons etc. Most prominent examples are Singhs donating horses and weapons to Sri Guru Hargobind Sahib Ji when Sri Guru Hargobind Sahib Ji gave the Hukum that from now on gives horses and weapons in the form of dasvand. How exactly do you calculate dasvand in the form of horses and weapons? It was custom for Gursikhs to offer what they had to Sri Guru Ji. Dasvand is just a standard limit. . . There were some poor Gursikhs who were extremely poor and couldn't offer and usually wealthy Gursikhs used part of their vand to help such poor Sikhs. Nobody looked down on a poor Sikh because if their economical/social status. Nor were they looked down if they couldn't give full dasvand. Don't you think there instances in Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir SIngh Jis life where he couldn't give dasvand due to his circumstances. There are many external circumstances that one may undergo which may prevent them from giving. Such as one getting sick or ill. If HSC13's friend has gone through some injury and cant provide then Sri Guru Ji understands and as long as he gives what he can his offerings would be accepted. Because Sri Guru Ji is not accepting the number or value of our vand he is assessing the humility in how we give.

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If someone makes 1000 dollars a month, but if their basic expenses such as rent/mortgage, bills, petrol to get to work , etc exceed 900 dollars. How can they afford dasvand? Others who are in jail, poor, or out of a job cannot pay full dasvand either. We are not making excuses. We are only trying to give practical advice to an injured Gursikh who cant make enough to pay full dasvand. For Gods sake if the poor man is injured we shouldn't look down on him or view him as a lesser Sikh. Sikhi is more then black and white rules. SRi Guru Ji is compassionate and understands everyones situations. If a Gursikhs gives all he has after taking care of his basic nececcsites which is a family duty then surely Sri Guru ji wont look down on him.

If a Gursikh makes 1000 dollars a month, then before spending it on anything else he should give 100 dollars to Khalsa Panth in form of Daswand. Only after taking out Daswand should he spend the money on anything else. If this is done then there is no way their basic expenses will exceed 900 dollars. In the case of someone who is in jail, they would not be earning any money therefore they would not be giving Daswand which is fine.

It is a Gursikh's farz to give Daswand. If we first start thinking that I will first make so and so much amount of money so that I can "afford" to give Daswand without being aukha then it is not Parvan to Guru Sahib. The Gursikh's responsibility is to follow Hukam without having any thought for himself or his family, it is Guru Sahib's responsibility to make that possible.

The most utam thing would be for a Gursikh to first give Daswand, then fulfill basic expenses, and then give rest to Khalsa Panth. But the absolute minimum still remains Daswand. Regardless if that is 10% of 1 million or 10% of 1 dollar, this is a black and white Hukam.

Sukhdeep Singh jeeo, it is not our authority to make a decision for this Gursikh to not give Daswand. If this Gursikh is not able to give Daswand for whatever reasons, they should appear in front of Panj Pyare or Sangat for a solution. Most likely they will have to pay back the missed Daswand once they make enough money to start giving the Daswand. But as individual Gursikhs we cannot give that as an answer to this question. We can only give the answer which is in line with Gurmat.

Preetam Singh

Preetam Singh jee, you are right nobody can serve as Panj Pyaarey on this forum nor was this my intention. I simply offered advice for someone who was asking. We cannot act as Panj and tell someone they don't have to give dasvand if my post has been interpreted as this then perhaps I was not clear. All Im saying is according to tradition one gives according to what they have to give. Likewise one cannot look down on others and regard them as a lesser Sikh because due to circumstances they cant give dasvand. Only Sri Guru Ji is to judge who is a good Sikh and who is a bad Sikh. Many times on this forum people ask questions which should be addressed to Panj but you yourself have given responses. I see no harm in given some practical advice in such situations.