Veechaar help needed June 03, 2013 12:15PM |
Re: Veechaar help needed June 03, 2013 02:06PM |
Re: Veechaar help needed June 04, 2013 08:46AM |
Re: Veechaar help needed June 04, 2013 12:08PM |
Re: Veechaar help needed June 04, 2013 12:33PM |
Re: Veechaar help needed June 04, 2013 06:49PM |
Re: Veechaar help needed June 05, 2013 03:20PM |
Quote
Delving deep in your questions will start a debate about eating or not eating meat, which is something that is not desirable at this time but here's a brief response to your questions.
Quote
Living things have to eat living things but as Gurmukhs we ought to eat such food that brings least damage to the society and to our own Karma.
Quote
Sure both plants and animals are living but there is a huge difference between plucking a plant and killing a mammal that feels pain and experiences fear and trauma associated with killing.
Quote
Never mind what carnivorous animals do or ignorant humans do but Gurmukhs are blessed with Bibek Budh.
Quote
and their main aim is to Japp Naam. After killing an animal for eating, it is hard to do Simran of Naam or you can say that after doing Amritvela Naam Abhyaas Kamaaee, one can't bring oneself to kill an animal just for the taste of the tongue
.Quote
Dairy products including yogurt is an acceptable food in Gurmat, so we eat it. Dairy products are used in Langars but meat is not. So we can't compare blood to yogurt.
Re: Veechaar help needed June 05, 2013 08:09PM |
Quote
I am sure you are very well aware that Sikhi is based on revelation through investigation by asking questions. Baal Nanak taught us that when he refused to wear the Hindu Janeiu. Do you mean we should not follow the same path carved by him at a very young age?
Debate is the corner stone of Sikhi. It will be unSikhi trait on our part by refusing to do so. Debate is part and parcel of Sikhi. We, who dwell with Nirbhau and Nirvair should not shun ourselves away from it but rather should embrace it. Sikhi demands that from us for our own learning process. Sidh Gosht is one of many examples about debates given in the SGGS, our only Guru.
Having said that,argument it not OK as I mentioned in my initial post. Hence, I have no idea why you are shunning away from the basic principles of Sikhi which is to ask questions, discuss and debate in order to learn so we can share that learning with others according to the Gurmat principle of Vand kei chaknah.
Quote
I beg to differ with you. You are incorrect in your claim according to Gurbani in the SGGS, our only Guru. All life starts from bacterium and evolves. So, I am a bit confused with your claim.Please elaborate..
Re: Veechaar help needed June 05, 2013 08:09PM |
Quote
Pardon my ignorance but what do you mean by carnivorous animals? Which animals do goats eat? Please specify. What does this have to do with the Bibek budhi? Or is it a personal preference of a Gurmukh as Gurbani in SGGS, our only Guru indicates?
Re: Veechaar help needed June 05, 2013 08:25PM |
Quote
You keep claiming what SIkhi is and what Sikhi is not but you have not provided any Gurbani to back up your claims on such views such as Sikhi promotes arguments. In fact , Gurmati says the exact opposite.
ਮੂਰਖੈ ਨਾਲਿ ਨ ਲੁਝੀਐ ॥੧੯॥
Re: Veechaar help needed June 05, 2013 08:39PM |
Quote
Carnivorous Animals are those animals who eat other animals to survive. Goats do not eat other animals and therefore are not Carnivorous but are defined as herbivores.
Quote
What do you mean by personal preference of a Gurmukh? Are you saying that it is okay to eat meat?
Please do not be ambiguous with your posts. If you are wishing to debate the issue of eating meat in Sikhi then please be very clear as to what stance you are taking and provide your argument with proofs from Gurbani.
Re: Veechaar help needed June 05, 2013 08:46PM |
Re: Veechaar help needed June 05, 2013 10:43PM |
Re: Veechaar help needed June 05, 2013 11:24PM |
Quote
Sorry to say but reffering shri guru granth sahib ji maharaj a "tool box" is not acceptable and i think you should apologise for that..
Re: Veechaar help needed June 06, 2013 12:08AM |
Quote
Mr. Tejwant,
It appears that you are not here to have an honest and open conversation/debate but to pollute the minds of others by propogating your views that contradict the teachings of Shree Guru Granth Sahib Ji. What is your veechar on the shabad posted by Veer Harmeet Singh?
Quote
Since you are in disagreement with others with respect to the diet, please advise and educate the forum about good dietary habits that will assist in spiritual development. Please quote from the teachings of our only Guru and not based on the stories that may have reinforced your beliefs.
Quote
Wishing you the very best in re-inventing the wheel and in your zest for "Revelation through Investigation"
Quote
God Bless!
Quote
"They will ask you about menstruation. Say, 'It is harmful, so keep away from women during it. Do not approach them until they are purified of it, when they are purified you may approach them as Allah has ordained." (Qur'an 2:222)
Re: Veechaar help needed June 06, 2013 02:21AM |
Re: Veechaar help needed June 06, 2013 04:07AM |
Re: Veechaar help needed June 06, 2013 05:06AM |
Re: Veechaar help needed June 06, 2013 05:53AM |
Re: Veechaar help needed June 06, 2013 06:04AM |
Re: Veechaar help needed June 06, 2013 08:40AM |
Quote
In the following Salok, Guru Nanak is talking about how women in Islam are forbidden to read Quran or do Namaz during menstruation.
Here is what Quran says about it:
Quote
It only matters to Ik Ong Kaar if the person's heart is clean, nothing else.
Re: Veechaar help needed June 06, 2013 12:13PM |
Quote
ਵਿਣੁ ਗੁਣ ਕੀਤੇ ਭਗਤਿ ਨ ਹੋਇ ॥
Genuine seekers knows one thing i.e. ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਕਾ ਭੋਜਨੁ ਗਿਆਨ ॥
Quote
Tejwant singh ji its clear you are trying to promote meat eating and your very first reply to kulbir singh ji was very condescending in its tone. What he said was plain and simple but your reply was an effort to look for an excuse to start an argument.
There is a lot of literature on meat eating, if I were you I would study that and write an exhaustive article with my vviews instead of trying to show others at this gurmat forums in a poor light.
And sikhi is not about arguments. Its about Naam jaap and gurbani understanding with bhae-bhavna. Gurmat is about Daya which begets dharma. Same daya tells me not to kill animals for food when clearly I don't need to.
Again, be nice and write an article based on your views and put it up in your online spot, let's not flog a dead horse.
Quote
Tejwant Singh jeeo, how did you get the interpretation that here Guru Sahib is talking about women's menstruation? There is no indication of this in the Salok. Professor Sahib Singh jee or Manmohan Singh jee has made no indication of this. Then how did you reach this conclusion?
diQuote
The Salok talks about the clothes getting stained by blood and given the next Pankiti - ਜੋ ਰਤੁ ਪੀਵਹਿ ਮਾਣਸਾ ਤਿਨ ਕਿਉ ਨਿਰਮਲੁ ਚੀਤੁ - it's more likely that here the blood refers to such blood that is shed through cruelty.
Quote
You have conveniently ignored the message of the third Pankiti and written that person's heart should be clean. Do you believe in chanting Naam, as the Pankiti says? Sure, the Pankiti also adds that Naam should be chanted through mouth, with good faith in heart or with good heart but chanting of Naam is clear in this Pankiti. Do you agree with Professor Sahib Singh jee's interpretation of this Pankiti? Professor jee is clearly interpreting this Pankiti to mean that Naam should be chanted with mouth, with good heart?
Quote
f you agree with chanting Gurmat Naam, rest will fall in place. You can interpret the first Pankitis as you wish. If you agree with us on the third Pankiti, and practice it, we are confident that sooner than later, we will agree on the first 2 Pankitis as well.
Re: Veechaar help needed June 06, 2013 12:59PM |
Quote
One thing is clear from Prof. Sahib Singh ji's interpretation that this Shabad is particularly addressed to the Muslims/Islam. Here it is:
ਜੇ ਜਾਮੇ ਨੂੰ ਲਹੂ ਲੱਗ ਜਾਵੇ, ਤਾਂ ਜਾਮਾ ਪਲੀਤ ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ (ਤੇ ਨਮਾਜ਼ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੋ ਸਕਦੀ),
I hope the first thing is clear now who this Shabad is addressed to. We also know from Islamic/Quarnic studies, which I am sure you must be aware that Guru Nanak had studied them deeply. The verse I mentioned from the Quran and many others can be found in there also prohibit Muslim women to do Nawaz during menstruation. We also know from the historical point of view that medical field (sanitary pads) was not that advanced then and it is obvious that womens' clothes got bloody during menstruation. Hence, my conclusion and interpretation.
Quote
How do you mean by:it's more likely that here the blood refers to such blood that is shed through cruelty?
How did you come to that conclusion? Are there any adjacent Shabads that indicate that or is it your own understanding/interpretation?
If there are. then please do share or if it is your personal understanding/interpretation, please let me know.
Quote
I am a bit confused about what you are trying to say above but I will try my best of what I understand.
Yes, one's "heart should be clean". When one chants Ik Ong Kaar's name from the heart, it obviously mean that the heart is clean or with a clean heart. Hence, I do not understand what your point in nit picking this phrase is. Please elaborate.
Of course the Naam is chanted via mouth provided one is not mute. However, if one's heart is not clean, then chanting the Naam becomes parroting laced with hypocricy because it does not come from the heart. And if one is mute, the important thing is the heart should be clean so one can chant the Naam silently because one is not able to use the mouth. I have no idea where your gripe is regarding this.
Quote
What do you mean by "rest will fall in place"? What will fall in place? In what manner? Who says so?
Re: Veechaar help needed June 06, 2013 02:26PM |
Quote
Tejwant Singh jeeo, we can agree that this Shabad is most likely addressed to a Muslim or is the outcome of Vichaar with a Muslim.
.Quote
This Shabad is not geared towards the menstruation cycle of women because Guru Sahib is talking of blood staining the Jaama i.e. the outer clothing not the under-garments. The under garments are not known as Jaama. Women's menstruation, even in the absence of sanitary pads, did not stain the outer clothes. There were other means to avoid this
Quote
Traditionally, the Saakhi behind this is that a Mullah was doing an animal Zibaah (killing the Halaal way) and while doing so some drops fell on his Jaama. Soon enough time for Nimaaz (Muslim prayer) came up and this Mullah proceeded to change his clothes since his blood-stained clothes were not considered to be clean enough for Nimaaz.
Quote
ਜੇ ਰਤੁ ਲਗੈ ਕਪੜੈ ਜਾਮਾ ਹੋਇ ਪਲੀਤੁ ॥
If one's clothes are stained with blood, the garment becomes polluted.
ਜੇਕਰ ਬਸਤਰਾ ਨੂੰ ਲਹੂ ਲੱਗ ਜਾਵੇ ਤਾਂ ਪੁਸ਼ਾਕ ਮਲੀਨ ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦੀ ਹੈ।
ਜਾਮਾ = ਕੱਪੜਾ।
ਜੇ ਜਾਮੇ ਨੂੰ ਲਹੂ ਲੱਗ ਜਾਵੇ, ਤਾਂ ਜਾਮਾ ਪਲੀਤ ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ (ਤੇ ਨਮਾਜ਼ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੋ ਸਕਦੀ),
Quote
No authentic scholar has interpreted this Salok as being geared towards women's menstruation cycle.
Re: Veechaar help needed June 06, 2013 05:38PM |
Re: Veechaar help needed June 06, 2013 07:05PM |
Quote
Why do you keep saying SGGS, our only Guru, are you implying that members and readers of this forum believe in another Guru aside from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee Maharaj?
Re: Veechaar help needed June 06, 2013 08:18PM |
Quote
Tejwant Singh
>Sikhi is based on revelation through investigation by
> asking questions.
Quote
> Debate is the corner stone of Sikhi. It will be
> unSikhi trait on our part by refusing to do so.
> Debate is part and parcel of Sikhi. We, who dwell
> with Nirbhau and Nirvair should not shun ourselves
> away from it but rather should embrace it.
Re: Veechaar help needed June 06, 2013 10:49PM |
Re: Veechaar help needed June 07, 2013 07:02AM |
Quote
Gurbani does not need any Sakhis to justify it. SGGS, our only Guru stands on its own. There is no mention in the Shabad about Halal is any part, nor is there any mention about it in the preceding or the following Shabads. So, I have no idea where you got that from.
Quote
As according to you and the Sakhi to put credence in order to justify Gurbani, the Mullah went to change his clothes, then the condition that Guru Nanak used in the Shabad is not required, provided we go by your Sakhi and how come you did not mention anything like that in your initial interpretation?
Quote
Why did it show up in your post when I mentioned about this Shabad that it is addressed to the Muslims? I am a bit baffled about it because it is totally about turn from your first one.
Re: Veechaar help needed June 07, 2013 09:03PM |
Quote
Going by your logic are you saying that Guru Nanak achieved his spiritual state through discussion and debates.
Quote
I am of the view that all the debates and discussion done by Guru Nanak were not meant for his own personal spiritual benefits but rather for the other person. Guru Nanak Dev ji through his Kala-Karishmi words which came from Guru-Hridya (Guru Heart) had most profound effect on the other person. Guru Nanak himself stood to gain nothing from plain verbal discussions of ideas and conversations
Quote
I am sure you would agree when I say that Bhai Gurdass Ji was a pooran Brahmagyani? And that his writings are held in utmost respect in Sikh sangat? Here is what Bhai Gurdass ji says on Guru Nanak Sahib ji's spiritual state and his tapasya:
Quote
Please share with us your views on the above pauri by Bhai Gurdass Ji whose baani has been called as Kunji of Gurbani.
Quote
Did any of the following Gurus: Guru Angad Sahib, Guru Amardass ji, Guru Ramdass ji, Guru Arjan Dev ji, Guru Hargobind Sahib ji, Guru Har Rae Sahib ji, Guru Harkrishan Sahib ji, Guru Tegh Bahadur ji, Guru Gobind Singh ji attain enlightenment or spiritual avastha through debates and discussion which you say are cornerstone of Sikhi?
Quote
Or
Can you please give me examples from Guru Grantha Sahib (our only Guru) proving that debates and discussions are ways and means of achieving enlightenment? You mentioned Sidha Goshta. Did Guru Nanak do the discussion for gaining any spiritual merit? Have you read Sidha Gosht? What is its message? Is it not that by doing Hari Bhagti there is no salvation?
Quote
Let me say it plainly here:
My point of view is that the whole Sidha Goshta is about teaching Sidha that without Satnaam/Guru-Shabad there is no Mukti. And here is the proof. The Rahao Pankti:
ਕਿਆ ਭਵੀਐ ਸਚਿ ਸੂਚਾ ਹੋਇ ॥ ਸਾਚ ਸਬਦ ਬਿਨੁ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥੧॥
Now I have used this one liner. Can you prove that I am wrong? That by this pankti Guru Nanak Sahib means something else other than that without Sach Shabad (Naam, Gurmantar) there is no mukti. Can you proove from Sidha Gosht that debates and discussions are a valid and accepted gurmat way of achieving spirituality?
Here is what Guru Nanak Sahib says finally:
ਸਬਦੈ ਕਾ ਨਿਬੇੜਾ ਸੁਣਿ ਤੂ ਅਉਧੂ ਬਿਨੁ ਨਾਵੈ ਜੋਗੁ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥
ਨਾਮੇ ਰਾਤੇ ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਮਾਤੇ ਨਾਮੈ ਤੇ ਸੁਖੁ ਹੋਈ ॥
ਨਾਮੈ ਹੀ ਤੇ ਸਭੁ ਪਰਗਟੁ ਹੋਵੈ ਨਾਮੇ ਸੋਝੀ ਪਾਈ ॥
ਬਿਨੁ ਨਾਵੈ ਭੇਖ ਕਰਹਿ ਬਹੁਤੇਰੇ ਸਚੈ ਆਪਿ ਖੁਆਈ ॥
ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਤੇ ਨਾਮੁ ਪਾਈਐ ਅਉਧੂ ਜੋਗ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਤਾ ਹੋਈ ॥
ਕਰਿ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ਮਨਿ ਦੇਖਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਬਿਨੁ ਨਾਵੈ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥੭੨॥
Can you please share your views on this pauri too? Do you disagree with the interpretation that Guru Nanak Sahib is saying in this pauri that Naam is everything and without Naam there is NO mukti?
Quote
A word of clarification:
I am not saying that discussing something is not useful but I certainly do not agree that
Quote
Hello TS,
I did visit the link (www.sikhphilosophy.com) provided by you in the thread. It reveals the depth to which you have dived to attain the knowledge and pearls of wisdom that you have projected hitherto. On the other hand, I didn't want any one to second guess my "station" in life, I therefore have a very apt username for all to know that I am indeed Mah(a)NalayakPurush.
Quote
It is interesting how the writings of the individuals reveal the personalities that they have. Moreover, we receive things as we perceive. So you are fully right in your thinking to come to the conclusions that you have made. If you have guessed that I might be a Christian because "God Bless" is used by Christians, so be it.
Quote
Similarly, I had my doubt about you being a Khalsa that is why I omitted the Singh and the greetings that I would exchange when meeting another Khalsa. You have repeatedly abbreviated the name of our only Guru, and this also sprouted some seeds of doubt in my mind regarding your being a Khalsa or a Pseudo-Khalsa.
Quote
Once again all the best in reinventing the wheel and in pursuit of "revelation through investigation."
Rabh Rakha
Quote
You are correct that there is no mention in the Shabad about Halal but you should remember that there is no reference in the Shabad to women's menstruation either. If you want to keep the stance of not using any outside Saakhi, then you should also not use outside conclusions. Just go by what the Shabad says. The Salok in the first Pankiti just mentions that if blood is incurred by Jaama (clothes) then the Jaama becomes impure. Just do Vichaar of the Shabad strictly based on what the Salok says. You can't have it both ways i.e. you object to others making reference to outside Saakhi but you yourself bring in the conclusion from outside, that this Salok is talking about women's menstruation.
Quote
Please read my first post carefully. My initial post does allude to the Saakhi.
Quote
I don't see any reason why you should be baffled. What difference does it make whether the Salok is addressed to a Muslim or a Hindu? We ought to obey the Hukam and adopt the Updesh in any case.