Re: Kartarpuri Beerh July 25, 2012 07:59PM |
Re: Kartarpuri Beerh July 25, 2012 10:01PM |
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Daljit Singh has not claimed that he has seen the beer. I know Daljit Singh from my sources. It is you who is stating that he has seen the beer. Burden of proving that falls on you. Do not run away by using harsh language.
Re: Kartarpuri Beerh July 26, 2012 05:37AM |
Re: Kartarpuri Beerh July 26, 2012 08:27AM |
Re: Kartarpuri Beerh July 26, 2012 08:33AM |
Re: Kartarpuri Beerh July 26, 2012 11:08AM |
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1) He states that this Birh is now at Kartarpur. Few lines down, he states that it has Mool Mantar written by Guru Arjan Dev Ji Himself and Ang 541 has the signature of the 6th Guru. This means Bhai Kahan Singh held it authentic otherwise he would’ve rejected it.
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2) On page 412 in footnote he clearly states that the Shabad was hartaaled by Guru Sahib Himself. This again points to him admitting that the Birh Sahib was scribed by Bhai Gurdas Ji under the supervision of Guru Sahib. And this is that Birh.
Re: Kartarpuri Beerh July 26, 2012 11:52AM |
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ਐਸੇ ਹੀ, ਨੌਵੇ ਸਤਗੁਰੂ ਦੇ ਅਹਿਦ ਤੀਕ ਇਹ ਰੀਤੀ ਰਹੀ ਕਿ ਜੋ ਕਾਪੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਦੀ ਹੁੰਦੀ ਉਸਦੇ ਪਤ੍ਰਿਆਂ ਦੀ ਗਿਣਤੀ ਤਤਕਰੇ ਦੇ ਅੰਤ ਵਿੱਚ ਦਰਜ ਕੀਤੀ ਜਾਂਦੀ ਇਸ ਨਿਯਮ ਅਨੁਸਾਰ ਕਰਤਾਰਪੁਰ ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਦੇ ਤਤਕਰੇ ਦੇ ਅੰਤ, ਇਹ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਗਿਆ ਹੈ-
“ਸੰਮਤ ੧੬੬੧ ਮਿਤੀ ਭਾਦੋਂ ਵਦੀ ੧ ਪੋਥੀ ਲਿਖ ਪਹੁੰਚੇ॥ ਸਾਰੇ ਪਤ੍ਰੇ ਗੁਰੂ ਬਾਬੇ ਜੀ ਦੇ ੯੭੪॥”
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Furthermore his judgement about whole beerh is in “GuraGira Kasuati” not in Gurmat Martand. He clearly say this in here “ਪੋਥੀ ਲਿਖ ਪਹੁੰਚੇ”- ਇਸਦਾ ਨਿਰਣਾ ਤਾਂ “ਗੁਰਾਗਿਰਾ ਕਸੌਟੀ” ਵਿੱਚ ਕੀਤਾ ਗਯਾ ਹੈ ਪਰ ਇਸ ਥਾਂ ਪ੍ਰਕਰਣ ਅਨੁਸਾਰ ਦੱਸਦਾ ਹਾਂ” which means his decision about how this copy of granth was written is in “GuraGira Kasuati”.
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Even for Beerh mentioned in Gurmat Martand he raised the doubt that ‘ਬਹੁਤ ਸਿੱਖ ਆਖਿਆ ਕਰਦੇ ਹਨ ਕਿ ਗੁਰੂ ਅਰਜਨ ਦੇਵ ਨੇ ਨੌਵੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਲਈ ਖਾਲੀ ਪੱਤਰੇ ਛੱਡ ਦਿੱਤੇ ਸਨ, ਪਰ ਇਹ ਖਿਆਲ ਗਲਤ ਹੈ, ਕਿਉਂਕਿ ਪੱਤਰੇ ਅਜੇਹੀ ਥਾਂ ਖਾਲੀ ਹਨ ਜਿਸ ਥਾਂ ਗੁਰੂ ਤੇਗ ਬਹਾਦੁਰ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਦੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਦਰਜ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੋ ਸਕਦੀ, ਜੈਸੇ ਪੰਨਾ ੬੦ ਦਾ ਇਕ ਪਾਸਾ ਖਾਲੀ ਅਤੇ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਰਾਗ ਵਿੱਚ ਪੰਜਵੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਵਿਚ ਤਿੰਨ ਪੱਤਰੇ ਖਾਲੀ ਹਨ, ਆਦਿ ਅਰ ਨੌਵੇ ਮਹਲ ਦੇ ਸਲੋਕਾਂ ਲਈ ਕੋਈ ਪੱਤ੍ਰਾ ਖਾਲੀ ਨਹੀਂ। ”
See he refutes the claim of leaving blank pages for Ninteh Satguru’s bani. Now question is why would Guru Sahib leave such blank pages if coming bani (Mahal 9th) would not fit? Does this make any sense to leave few pages blank for nothing in a Granth which going to lead the whole universe forever. This big loophole in this beerh itself challenges it's authority.
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I think the only place you are getting impression of authenticity is that he mentioned something in the footnote but Bhai Bijla Singh jio how come you forgot the word he used in the beginning of this note is‘ਮਾਲੂਮ ਹੁੰਦਾ ਹੈ’. Since when word ‘ਮਾਲੂਮ ਹੁੰਦਾ ਹੈ’ is considered to be a fact? This could be either way. There is a big difference in ‘ਮਾਲੂਮ ਹੁੰਦਾ ਹੈ’ and “to be granted”.
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Just to mention that Bhai Sahib’s letter was printed while he was alive whereas ‘Gurmat Martand’ is published 24 years later after his death. Anyway all in all from above documents he did not authenticate the Kartarpuri Beerh as original one and it would be a Ninda of Bhai Kahan Singh to consider so.
Re: Kartarpuri Beerh July 26, 2012 01:00PM |
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If it was a copy then tell me which “copy” was prepared on Bhadon Vadi1, 1661? It was the original COPY. You are stretching the meaning of the word copy. If it was a copy of the original Birh then it would not have the same date and Bhai Sahib would’ve used the word ‘Nakal’. And the Birh would have the sentence that it was a Nakal of the original Birh.
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Then go ahead provide the evidence. The letter you posted mentions nothing about the authenticity of the Birh Sahib.
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He simply addresses the misconception but does not negate the authenticity. One doesn’t support the other. There are many misconceptions related to scriptures but answering them does not amount to rejecting authority of the scriptures. He refutes that Guru Sahib did not leave blank spaces for 9th Guru’s bani but it does not prove that blank spaces were never left. He would’ve clearly stated that this saroop is not the original one which he did not.
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And how do you derive from this that he did not consider it the authentic Birh? Points 1 and 2 in my last post are my reasons for believing that Bhai Kahan Singh accepted Birh’s authenticity. He wrote that the Birh is in Kartarpur and it is the one scribed by Bhai Gurdas Ji. How do you refute this?
I presented a fact it's upto one's capability how to translate it.Quote
Gurmat Maartand was written by him and if you have any reason to believe that it was altered later then present some evidence. By your logic all books of Bhai Randhir Singh and Bhai Vir Singh published after their deaths would not be much credible.
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And please keep the “ninda” card out of it. I can equally say you are stretching words of Bhai Kahan Singh and resorting to ninda by claiming something he never endorsed.
Re: Kartarpuri Beerh July 26, 2012 01:45PM |
Re: Kartarpuri Beerh July 26, 2012 02:51PM |
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Don't fool yourself. Do you mean that until Ninth Guru Sahib only a Single Beerh is scribed that is why it is called copy. He used the word 'ਜੋ ਕਾਪੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਦੀ ਹੁੰਦੀ' clearly means whatever copy of Guru Granth Sahib Jee is made. For date why not it is possible that this copy is not made of date as mentioned?
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Cause of writing this letter itself is challeging what believed to be authentic of this Beerh.
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If leaving blank pages were authentic then why Panth did not copy in present saroop as such? Present saroop has no such PARNAALI of leaving blank pages.
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Do you think blank pages are for someone to fill in the blanks for essay writing?
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As I stated before he considered this as a copy not original one
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I presented a fact it's upto one's capability how to translate it.
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Yes it is ninda of Bhai Kahan Singh because he did not say the Beerh is original one
Re: Kartarpuri Beerh July 26, 2012 04:26PM |
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I think you are misunderstanding or desperately attempting to disprove Kartarpuri Birh. Bhai Kahan Singh writes “'ਜੋ ਕਾਪੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਦੀ ਹੁੰਦੀ” which means that the rule of writing total Angs and writing the completion date was followed until the 9th Guru but it does not prove that the Kartarpuri Birh is the copy of the original. In fact, any copy of the original Birh clearly states that it is “Nakal” of the original one. If a Birh is copied from a copy of the original then it says “Nakal Ka Nakal”. But in case of Kartarpuri Birh it does not state anything like it.
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Purpose of the letter was to state his opinion about Raag Maala not Kartarpuri Birh. Its authenticity is nowhere questioned. I have asked many times, point to me where he is rejecting the authenticity.
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The point has already been addressed before. Gurbani was scribed as it was procured and spaces were left in the anticipation of procuring more Bani. Once completed, all copies made did not have any spaces.
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But you never proved it. The facts speak for themselves. He says “The Birh is now in Kartarpur”. Further, if it was a copy then it would not have Mool Mantar written by the 5th Guru. Additionally, if it was not authentic, it would not have signature of the 6th Guru. Along with Raag Maala, he would’ve rejected the whole Birh Sahib by stating that “this is not the one scribed by Bhai Gurdas JI” but he never wrote such. Too bad if it bursts your bubble,
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Difference of opinion is not equivalent to Ninda. Perhaps you should review the basic rules of argumentation. Bhai Kahan Singh never rejected Kartarpuri Birh and you are doing Ninda by claiming otherwise for some personal reasons.
Re: Kartarpuri Beerh July 26, 2012 05:08PM |
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It shameful to see how a simple meaning is twisted. It is in simple Punjabi that 'ਜੋ ਕਾਪੀ(ਨਕਲ) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਦੀ ਹੁੰਦੀ” follow the rule and same rule was applied in Kartarpuri Beerh.
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Guru Sahib is doer of Gurbani and they knew precisely what is coming and how much is coming there was no room for speculations. Having such a thought you are bringing Guru Sahib at an ordinary human level and it is Mubarak to you.
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Whereas letter which rejects its entity as is, is a solid proof of rejection.
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Looks like you have nothing else to prove the authenticity and coming with name callings now.
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Again according to his letter Bhai Kahan Singh never accepted the kartarpuri Beerh in its whole entity.
Re: Kartarpuri Beerh July 27, 2012 09:38AM |
Re: Kartarpuri Beerh July 27, 2012 02:17PM |
Re: Kartarpuri Beerh July 27, 2012 04:24PM |
Re: Kartarpuri Beerh July 27, 2012 04:38PM |
Re: Kartarpuri Beerh July 27, 2012 04:50PM |
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I don’t know about multiple Birhs since there is no evidence provided by any scholar I know.
Re: Kartarpuri Beerh July 27, 2012 05:04PM |
Re: Kartarpuri Beerh July 27, 2012 10:25PM |
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Bhai Sahib, you asked for the proof and I provided
it with my reasoning. You are entitled to your
opinion but it does not prove that I made baseless
statements. Guru Rakha
Re: Kartarpuri Beerh August 26, 2012 06:18AM |