The Disease! (MSN, Facebook etc)

The Disease! (MSN, Facebook etc)


Written by a Veerjee a few years back

Daas had a situation recently of a bibi (family friend) really close to daas and a Singh, Daas is not going to mention names but daas hopes they don’t mind me telling there mistake to the sangat so that others can also learn from these examples.

It starts of with ‘how you doing?’ on msn, these few words start of the conversation, which we like or not will get us in to a lot of trouble. The conversation carried on and they started to talk on a regular term. At the end it went to flirting and they started to ‘like’ each other within a few months. Before anything went out of hand, the messages were seen and they were caught. With Mahrajs kirpa they had their brothers and sisters to help them and they got out of the mess, before it got worse.

There was also a situation where a Bibi went to meet a Singh, they lived far apart from each other so they spent money on train trips to come down and go to Cinemas etc. waheguroo knows what else they did, which daas does not want talk about, thy are so disgusting that it was hard that a amrit thari bibi can do such a thing, this also started of msn. The Singh (which daas also knows personally) now got caught by his parents and has realised his mistake, the bibi carries on talking to other singhs and meeting other people. The bibi was amritthari!! These issues have just come up so please if any one does know anything tell the elder gursikhs and not to spread there names around forums or other people, it has no benefit talking about these people.

Sangat ji daas would like to advise the gursikhs (Bibi and Singhs) to stay away from this disease, msn, facebook, flickr talking freely to bibi and singhs and also mobile phones, texting each other. There have been many articles and emails going around about bibi and singhs talking freely, yet our brothers and sisters are ignorant (including my self) and wont listen to the advice, these gursikhs have wrote emails and articles through experience, WE SHOULD LEARN FROM THEM.

When Singhs went to the recent smagam, the elder gurisikhs were telling the singhs and bibia of these problems coming in to the youth, yet we carry on until we get in to the mess but be aware not every one is lucky to have the right sangat around them to advice them about this disease.

Please this is a benti to all the gursikhs, get off msn, facebook, twitter etc etc. Stop the texting and spend those seconds doing mool mantar da jaap. Stop chatting freely with the opposite gender, as this will get us in a lot of problems as shown above. When you do have to speak to a bibi then always recite the word penji and speak little, carry on reciting naam. If we are serious with our sikhi then follow these guides, if not then may mahraj protect you. There have been many articles please read them and bring them in to your lives and jeevan, practice them.

If daas has said anything wrong or done a mistake by telling others about these experiences then daas asks for forgiveness, but these are live examples for the people that argued about these points. Daas will not post again on this issue, unless in maharsj hukam but every one knows what is right and wrong. May mahraj do kirpa on all of us and protect us! Don’t turn around and say Mahraj didn’t tell us, because these posts and articles also come to mind because of Mahrajs Hukam, he knows all! He loves us a lot but only a few will realise this!

In relation to this post Majnoo - If don't marry her i will i die

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖ਼ਾਲਸਾ
ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫ਼ਤਹਿ

This is a timely and much needed article at this time. Our youth needs to be informed of the dangers of physical proximity between youth of opposite sexes. Getting intimate through internet facilities like Facebook, MSN etc. too is just as dangerous as Physical proximity and Gurmukhs who are serious of achieving their spiritual aims, should avoid it.

Guru Sahib kirpa karan and save us from Kaljug.

Daas,
Kulbir Singh

facebook and msn and other networking sites like that are only a disease when we use it with other motivations, other wise they are useful sites.

all i can say about the situation with the singh/bibi is that...either one or both of the persons involved must have the wrong motivation between their interaction. meaning if they didn't want anything serious with each other (like engagement/marriage) then yes their interaction was wrong. and if only one of them wanted something serious and the other was in it temporarily then that is sad and wrong.

and what about singhs who call the girls 'penji' yet they don't mean it, what is up with that? cos it does happen...vice versa with the bibis.".....paagi.." and you don't mean that...it's easy to tell from the tone of the voice.

source: experience haha

Gurmukho, kinniyaan chapeydaan maarogey? Majnoo da article parrh'ke gallaan laal karke suja shaddiyaan, hunn jawaarraa bhanni janneo?

huh? sorry mehtab singh veer ji, i didn't understand what you meant in your post. what do you mean?

I personally feel and think that if people do mistakes, others shouldn't go about talking about them in public or even on forums. I am kind of sad to see this post. I think that it would have been much better that who ever that posted this, Vista, should have rephrased all of this, even if this isn't written by you because 'Daas', couple of years ago, didn't do a good job of discussing this in the right manner, from my point of view.

There are many people who have done mistakes in their life and then come into sikhi, well it does happen sometimes. Be more forgiving but don't make it a mockery. It is sad situation, not a disgusting one. Please be more compassionate with words and pray to God to give us guidance and if anyone goes astray pray to God to bring them to the right path.

I also don't think it is ethical to post about people's lives without their official permission. You aren't even allowed to share such personal information to family members if you go to see a counselor or a psychologist. I don't see this as being ethical. This is such personal information, I feel it is wrong to be discussing it.

Mood: not too pleased...

I meant that the Majnoo article was a slap in the face, but this is a punch.

what does the sangat believe should be the punishment for these kind of acts between a singh and bibi?

Leafy jee

The reason for post this was to make people aware of such lurking dangers of social sites, which ruin/stain life's.
The veerjee that wrote it years back, expressed his shock and disappointment, maybe it wasn't the right way to go about things.
But it's was definitely an a great warning for all.

"Getting intimate through internet facilities like Facebook, MSN etc. too is just as dangerous as Physical proximity and Gurmukhs who are serious of achieving their spiritual aims, should avoid it." Bhai Kulbir Singh

Bhul Chuk Maafi

Don't think punishment is what is needed, but rather that the person be made aware that these karmas won't help him/her so that they realise their mistakes and move forward from there. There is a valuable lesson to be learned for every mistake made....

gsingh Veer Jee, it depends if physical relationship occurs, i.e. if Bujjar Kurehit gets committed then in AKJ India, in the middle of the whole sangat while Kirtan programme is going on, the offender has hands tied up and face blackened and is made to stand there for some while in front of everyone to repent for mistakes. Unfortunately, for some reason this has never been done for Kaurs, just for Singhs, and nowadays even this is getting less frequent as well. In fact, in the West it is very rarely, if ever, seen.

Some people may be shocked by this, but I am in favour of such punishment, because it serves as a grave warning for anyone thinking of engaging in this type of behaviour. Obviously we should never do gossip or judge the individual who is being punished (dekh ke andiTh keeta). Another problem is that, some crafty people, after committing these type of deeds and realising that the punishment is so severe, they try and pesh somewhere else to avoid it.

I think we must also raise the question, why bother taking Amrit in the first place if we are just going to do everything the same as before? If we still want to hang around with our manmukhi friends or the opposite sex, wear the latest fashionable clothes, go to cinemas and restaurants etc, then why bring shame to Guru Jee? In Panjabi they say "Aaabde pio di chiTee pagg nu daag na laa" "Do not stain the white turban of your father", and that is exactly what we are doing to Guru Jee. No one will say "Phlana Singh was doing this" or "Phlani Kaur was doing that" they will say that person who looked like a son or daughter of Sri Guru Gobind Singh Jee was doing that. How can we live and bring shame to Guru Jee? A Gursikh would just die if they knew they were bringing shame to the House of the Guru.

that's ridiculously horrible, well im ashmaed to find out this today that akj does this and im ashamed to know that there are people such as yourself who actually 'like' this?!
well hearing this has brought shame upon akj in my eyes, so there you go jaskirat singh, the akj members who dish out such so called punishments have brought shame upon themselves, in my eyes for sure. don't worry Guru Nanak's white chola/turban isn't going to get dirty ever because it is like soap and soap never gets dirty.

acts such as that brings shame to house of Nanak.

One person does something wrong, the rest do a MUCH BIGGER wrong and they call it punishment????? Pathetic that is.

dekh key andith keeta??? please..... i think it's shameful in itself beating/abusing someone in the darbar of Guru Sahib like that, is bringing shame to Guru in iteself....what are you on about?! doing something like that can bring so much trauma to a person in their life, and the Guru is supposed to raise someone not bring their mental state even more down.

Beating someone with shoes???? that's inhumane and violent behaviour, God is love and His acts are free from anger so how can such a punishment be dished out from the Guru who represents God, who is supposed to bring you closer to God??????? I'm disgusted with such so called puninshment. It's not right, at all and I don't think Guru ji would be happy with such punishment...

and what's wrong with wearing designer/good clothes?????? manmukhi friends???? that's judgemental.... how can you be so judgemental of people??? i have met many people in my life who i think are better humans compared to some amritdari sikhs that i have dealt with. so what makes an amritdari better? that they do path, yet don't act nicely towards others or say hurtful things to others? is that what the bani they are reading is teaching them to behave? ......

oh cmon people, snap out of this, love every one okay and stop this hatred. i am so tired of thoughts like these and i think i am just done with coming onto this forum to post now, i am so very tired.

You cannot force anyone to do something, if you are able to then they are doing it with fear and not with total surrender and love. A good teacher will always teach you with love and compassion and will not punish you if you make a mistake. A bad teacher will punish you and bring you down. A good teacher will keep working with you, build you, make you stronger, wiser, and will encourage you to keep trying until you get it right and the day you do get it right that teacher will be the happiest person at that time.

Our Guru Nanak is so sweet, so humble, so kind, so merciful, so loving to the core of His being. I DON'T think Guru Nanak can give permission for such abuse. It's the people that are dishing it out and then putting the responsibility on Guru Nanak, WAKE UP!!

Leafy Bhein Ji

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

You are very much correct to say that sometimes, we try to prepare & table rules which are yet to be approved by the SANGAT. The reporting above, about a Jathebandi, is presented to appear "horrible" to you. It is not so. Guru is never so. It was never so. At certain times, if it has happened, it is with the permission and under the directions of Panj Pyare Singhs. We are no ones to criticize it. Take it sure; it was never horrible. Certainly, we are not allowed to recommend it as we are not allowed to critcize it.

Please note, you have wrongly added "beating" to it. Actually, Sangat could never know, who was there and for which wrong act.

I appreciate your views on the subject. Probably, due to such views of the Sangat, these things are very rare, now.

leafy jee that punishment may seem severe but challo you may not agree with i dont fully agree with it either but what you said how punishment is not needed i think there needs to be a punishment just for making a mistake, however the biggest punishment itself if the shame the singh/bibi feel for making the mistake

But what does the sangat think on a punishment for the following things:

Bibi/ Singh talk on msn/facebook get intimate but nothing physical, however the degree of intimacy is very high

Bibi/Singh talk same scenario as above, one time physical hug occurs

oddslot

gsingh sheraaa

ik gal daso daas noo

i agree that there should be punishments for the all scenarios mentioned and that they should be somewhat harsh

regardless

whats with this whole

"what should be done in this scenario" or "what should be done in this case"

is some1 u know undergoing these scenarios at the time ?

becuz as much as i agree with that fact that punishments should occur

i dont understand why u are so keen to learn as to what the punishments should be ?

no1 on this forum should worry about punishments, because the punishment should be decided the panj singh sahibaan doing sevaa

and that decision is based on

severity of situation
first time/repeat offender
age
and any other factors the panj singh feel affect the situation
etc

mere pyare veer, in case u know somebody undergoing this, help them out, treat them with love, be strict as well, make them feel that they are wrong and tell an adult about it (a singh who does seva in the local panj is also a good idea)

but please, don't worry about what sort of punishment they should be given

if it is harsh, let is be, i'm not complaining

but don't go worrying about it

thats guroo sahibs duty, not our headache

NanakChintaMattKaroChintaTisHeeHaii


Being a youth, and having made mistakes in the past, daas finds it good that parchar is being done to save the up and coming generation.

the posts on the forum are good and are needed, but some of the replies to these posts (not necessarily yours) have been a bit outrageous.

My grandmother used to say "Let's look in the mirror first, before saying something to anybody else"

People like daas need to fix their own weakness and not point out flaws in others.

Kaam is one of the 5 chors. Yet it is the biggest and most dangerous in my eyes and yours too probably.

Yet, as we grow older, let's not forget all about the other 4.

The one that affects me the most is KRODH!!!

when will I see a quality post on that ????

come on people

it's not for sangat to decide what punishment is appropriate in these situations. the offenders should do pesh, and panj piyaras must decide the fitting punishment. it may vary from person to person and case to case, because every situation is different. as MB veerjee said, it is not fitting for us to criticize this punishment when guru sahib has decided it.



leafy bhenjee, i totally agree and have seen myself the misuse of "bhenjee, veerjee" between people who are clearly flirting. i wish there was some way to make people understand that when you behave inappropriately, simpling saying "sister" doesn't make it ok. people who do this should know that they're not fooling anyone.

There are instances of people first addressing another individual as veerjee/bhenjee and then end up "going out" with the same person (and I am talking about Amritdharis). Its clear that the initial "veerjee/bhenjee" was only a cover-up to get "close" to the person and then show your true colors and ulterior motives. Some end up getting married also, which I am no one to comment on if it was right or wrong. But yes, fooling around/flirting with someone you call veerjee/bhenjee, even if it is online, sorry, that is a NO-NO.

Firstly jeeo, I would not like to post anything that would lead to topic being closed, but would rather prefer if we could discuss calmly and respectfully.

gsingh Veer Jee, although no bujjar kurehit has been committed in the scenario that you have mentioned, borders have been crossed, and for this reason I would recommend that both individuals concerned either appear at Amrit Sanchaar in front of Panj Pyare or to get 5 Rehatvaan Gurmukhs assembled from the Sangat to receive punishment.

Leafy jee, by saying that I "like" the punishments it's almost as if you are saying I enjoy or get some pleasure from seeing someone get punished like this. I would like to clarify that is definitely not the case, and I would feel really sorry for the person who has done the deeds to warrant undergoing this punishment. What I would genuinely "like" jeeo, is for us all to live such immaculate and pristine Gurmukhi Jeevan free from even the thought of bujjar kurehits. Having said that, I do standby my first post, and think that these punishments and more should be brought back and enforced worldwide at all Amrit Sanchaars.

Although I didn't mention a beating with shoes or anything else in the first post, I am in strong support of this as well. Unfortunately this is almost never done these days. Contrary to being a punishment, it is actually a reward, as the dust of the holy sangats feet will purify sins. I would also like to state, that if I myself ever did these deeds I would also expect and wish to receive all these punishments too. Leafy jee you stated that someone would get in traumatic mental state because of the punishments, this dukh should act as a fuel to do more naam abhiyaas, keep more rehat and never even get close to doing these dastardly deeds again. Gurbani says manmukhs are crazy and deluded, so what about the traumatic mental state they were in (in the first place) when they committed these actions?

A lot of us may have this attitude, that we can just do what we want and commit whatever mistakes, and then just turn up at the next Amrit Sanchaar and Guru Jee Panj Pyaare will just say "koina puttar" and give us a pat on the back, let us take Amrit again and send us on our way. What a shambles! This is a great mockery. We are trying to do cleverness with the Pooran Satguru and take advantage of: Quote: "Our Guru Nanak is so sweet, so humble, so kind, so merciful, so loving to the core of His being."

If we take this What's wrong with hanging around with people who cut hair, eat meat, smoke, drink and Vaheguru Jee knows what else? What's wrong with chatting with opposite sex? What's wrong with wearing fashionable clothes? What's wrong with swearing and using slang? What's wrong with wearing jewellery and make-up? What's wrong with going to cinema and restaurants? What's wrong with this? what's wrong with that? approach we are heading on a very dangerous path to big trouble. Compromise is an extremely slippery slope.

Quote
Leafy
God is love and His acts are free from anger so how can such a punishment be dished out from the Guru who represents God, who is supposed to bring you closer to God??????? I'm disgusted with such so called puninshment. It's not right, at all and I don't think Guru ji would be happy with such punishment...

Leafy jee, you are criticising the strict punishments, but what about the punishments that Dharam Rae and the Jamdoots are going to give to people who do bujjar kurehits? Stripped naked, tied up, face blackened, boiled in oil, severely beaten, embracing hot columns, and much more, Gurbani mentions all these things. Satguru Jee is the Master of the Universe, they are in control of Dharam Rae, Jamdoots, naraks etc, and it is in fact on Guru Jee's orders that these punishments are being dished out. So how can you say Guru Jee would not dish out such punishments?

Please allow me to share a saakhi from Dasmesh Jee's times. Near Sri Anandpur Sahib there lived a Singh, he used to get ready and dressed tyarbartyaar very meticulously and neatly everyday and then he would go to Satguru Jee's darbaar for darshan. Guru Maharaaj Jee would hug and give a lot of love and blessings to this Singh everyday "Shaabaash Singhaa! Dhan Sikhi! Dhan Sikhi! etc" . The Singh wondered to himself, that I am so lucky that I am getting all these blessings and boons from Satguru Jee, he was very happy and continued with this daily routine for some time. One day, he was getting ready and he noticed in the mirror there was one grey hair in his beard, he started getting worried, he thought that I won't look so good, maybe Guru Jee won't like it and he won't show love and blessings to me etc so he plucked the one grey hair out and then travelled to Guru Jee's darbaar. Immediately upon seeing him, Satguru Jee exclaimed and gave order to the sangat to beat him and kick him out of the darbaar, Guru Jee said "That which I loved, you plucked out and threw away!"

Finally I would like to beg forgiveness if yourself or anyone else took offence to any manmat that I have written in the first or this post. But if you took offence to any Gurmat that is written, then I can never apologise or ask forgiveness for this, as it is the Guru's ideology and it must prevail at all costs.

Quote

this dukh should act as a fuel to do more naam abhiyaas, keep more rehat and never even get close to doing these dastardly deeds again. Gurbani says manmukhs are crazy and deluded, so what about the traumatic mental state they were in (in the first place) when they committed these actions?

If we take this What's wrong with hanging around with people who cut hair, eat meat, smoke, drink and Vaheguru Jee knows what else? What's wrong with chatting with opposite sex? What's wrong with wearing fashionable clothes? What's wrong with swearing and using slang? What's wrong with wearing jewellery and make-up? What's wrong with going to cinema and restaurants? What's wrong with this? what's wrong with that? approach we are heading on a very dangerous path to big trouble. Compromise is an extremely slippery slope.

Stripped naked, tied up, face blackened, boiled in oil, severely beaten, embracing hot columns, and much more, Gurbani mentions all these things. Satguru Jee is the Master of the Universe, they are in control of Dharam Rae, Jamdoots, naraks etc, and it is in fact on Guru Jee's orders that these punishments are being dished out.

100 billion American dollars cannot account for this post!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

VAAAHHH!!!!!

Jaskirat Singh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Please allow me to share a saakhi from Dasmesh
> Jee's times. Near Sri Anandpur Sahib there lived a
> Singh, he used to get ready and dressed
> tyarbartyaar very meticulously and neatly everyday
> and then he would go to Satguru Jee's darbaar for
> darshan. Guru Maharaaj Jee would hug and give a
> lot of love and blessings to this Singh everyday
> "Shaabaash Singhaa! Dhan Sikhi! Dhan Sikhi! etc" .
> The Singh wondered to himself, that I am so lucky
> that I am getting all these blessings and boons
> from Satguru Jee, he was very happy and continued
> with this daily routine for some time. One day, he
> was getting ready and he noticed in the mirror
> there was one grey hair in his beard, he started
> getting worried, he thought that I won't look so
> good, maybe Guru Jee won't like it and he won't
> show love and blessings to me etc so he plucked
> the one grey hair out and then travelled to Guru
> Jee's darbaar. Immediately upon seeing him,
> Satguru Jee exclaimed and gave order to the sangat
> to beat him and kick him out of the darbaar, Guru
> Jee said "That which I loved, you plucked out and
> threw away!"

This post is slightly off-topic. Daas has heard a slightly different version of above saakhi. So, thought about posting it here and it would be great if Gurmukhs present on this forum can add to it for the benefit of online sangat.

As Veer Jaskirat Singh ji mentioned that this Singh, who lived Near Siri Anandpur Sahib, would come to Guru Sahib's darbaar everyday. Siri Dasmesh ji would hug him everyday and shower a lot of love on him. This Singh, obviously, felt very fortunate and wondered the reason for such pyaar from Siri Dashmesh ji. Guru Sahib told him that your face resembles Siri Guru Tegh Bahadur Sahib ji and you always remind me of him. Hearing these pavittar bachans from Siri Dashmesh ji's mukh, this Singh's happiness had no bounds. One day, while looking up in the mirror, this Singh noticed a white/grey hair in his beard. He plucked it out and went for Guru Sahib's Darshan. Guru Sahib, vaaliye do-jahaan, ghat-ghat di jaanan vaale, showed his pith (back) to this Singh when he came for darshan. He could not comprehend and asked Guru Sahib the reason for this.

Guru Sahib: Sikha, e ki kitta ee (what have you done)? Committed a bajjar kurehit.
Singh: Guru Sahib, I just plucked out one hair from my face and nothing more.
Guru Sahib: Panj pyaare had clearly told you not to do beadbi of your any rom (hair) from any part of of your body. You have violated their hukam and, hence, committed a blunder.

This Singh felt sharamsaar and left Darbaar of Guru Sahib. Daas had heard this saakhi at a Gurmat samagam. Keertani Singh mentioned that this saakhi serves as a constant notice to all the Sikhs, seeking Guru Sahib's darshan, not to indulge in any activity that would force Guru Sahib to show his pith (back) on us.

bhul chuk di khima
waheguru ji ka khalsa
waheguru ji ki fateh!!

The Tankhaah (punishments) that are being questioned are the ones that have been decided by Punj Pyare from time to time. We should not question these Tankhaah. Punj Pyare do not force anyone to come and admit their Bajjar Kurehits but if someone does go to the Darbar of Punj Pyare, then it is up to the Punj Pyare as to what Tankhah they want to give to the offenders.

The tradition of seemingly severe punishments is not peculiar to AKJ. Nihungs have even more severe punishments and instances of severe Tankhaah is found in Taksal as well. Once a person got pesh at an Amrit Sinchaar being organized at Chowk Mehta by Taksali Gursikhs. The person who got pesh was so arrogant that he came there as slightly drunk. He had been drinking and still had the audacity to get Pesh at the Darbar of Punj Pyare. When the Punj Pyare sensed that this person who had come to get pesh was drunk, they immediately ordered the Pehredar and other Singhs there to pour kerosene oil on this arrogant person and burn him alive. Who was going to not obey the order from Punj Pyare? The Singh right away caught this person and poured kerosene oil on him. Now the drunk person realized his blunder and then he started crying loudly and pleading for mercy. Hearing his pleas, the Punj Pyare stopped the Singhs from carrying out their previous order of burning this person alive. So the tradition of Tankhah is not peculiar to Jatha alone.

We can't judge the actions of Punj Pyare sitting outside the Darbar. If a person who originally offered his head to Guru Sahib and received Amrit, breaks his promise of not committing Bajjar Kurehits, then surely it's up to the Punj Pyare if they are going to pardon him or not and if they are going to pardon such person, then on what conditions. Who are others to question the Tankhah given by the Punj Pyare. No one can dictate what kind of Tankhah the Punj Pyare should give out to the Patits. The Patits should be thankful that they are being pardoned and should not raise question on Tankhah given to them. The Punj Pyare normally follow precedence and tradition when giving out the Tankhah and blackening the face of a Patit and taking him to Sangat is part of the Khalsa tradition and should not be changed just because lamb-heart, modern and Western-raised people don't like it.

Kulbir Singh

Jachhak Ji says, in the above sakhi, Guru Ji "showed his pith (back) to this Singh when he came for darshan"; while Jaskirat Singh Veer Ji highlights, "Satguru Jee exclaimed and gave order to the sangat to beat him and kick him out of the darbaar".

This is how history gathers the impressions of its readers and writers. I think, the latter version, is exaggeration.

Bhai Mehtab Singh Jeeo, this gareeb would consider himself more richer than just 100 billion dollars if yourself or any other Gurmukh looked at me with glance of grace and gave assessaa.

Jaachak jeeo and MB Singh jee, I would preferred that jee had started a separate topic on this, but nevertheless, I standby my post and submit the version written by me is the correct one, as told by Gurmukhs. I personally suspect the one you have written is a watered down version to please certain people.

What Bhai Kulbir Singh Jee has written, I am strongly in agreement with. Even if the Panj Pyare ordered death, that would be most excellent and pleasing. To die at the hands of the Satguru? What a great blessing! I have, once again, been told by mystical Gurmukhs, that those enemies in battle who were killed by Satguru Dashmesh Jee's arrows had unbelievably good previous karma and were actually receiving a golden ticket direct to Sachkhand.

It is ghor Kaljug Khalsa Jee, if anything we should be getting more strict and severe with these things rather than less.

I am a stupid fool who has no idea how Guru Ji works...

Quote
jaskirat singh
I personally suspect the one you have written is a watered down version to please certain people.

i totally agree wid u, also if you look at the sakhi of the masands and the punishment guru gobind singh jee gave them is another prime example, of the punishment that guru sahib would give to people that disobyed the rules of sikhi

i just have one question thats been looming in my mind for a while....is it a paap if you touch the opposite genders body by accident? For example, say if your walking throught the hallways in your skool, and your in a rush to getting to class, and you are weaving through a crowd of people, and by ACCIDENT your shoulder or arm hits the opposite genders body(ie thier shoulder) by mistake(and you never had any intention of doing it, because it was out of your control to prevent your body from touching the other gender due to the momentum of your body and you also had no kaami intentions of doing it).
Also, say if your in the bus or skytrain during rush hour and the bus or sky train is packed with people, and when the train or bus comes to a stop it usually causes people to move back and forth due to the motion, and say for example when this happens it causes the opposite gender to hit your body is that a paap or vice versa?
(just to add, when these situations happen the people dont have any kaami related intentions)

ੴਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫ਼ਤਹ॥

ਪਿਆਰੇ ਖ਼ਾਲਸਾ ਜੀ,

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕਾ ਖ਼ਾਲਸਾ॥ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕੀ ਫ਼ਤਹ॥

ਭਾਈ ਜਸਕੀਰਤ ਸਿੰਘ ਜੀ ਅਤੇ ਭਾਈ ਕੁਲਬੀਰ ਸਿੰਘ ਜੀ ਵਲੋਂ ਬੱਜਰ ਕੁਰਹਿਤੀਏ ਬਾਰੇ ਦਿੱਤੇ ਵਿਚਾਰ ਪੂਰਨ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਅਨੁਸਾਰੀ ਹਨ ਕਿਉਂਕਿ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਦੀ ਦਾਤ ਕੋਈ ਆਮ ਵਸਤੂ ਨਹੀ ਜਿਹੜੀ ਜਦੋਂ ਚਾਹੀ ਖਰੀਦ ਲਈ ਤੇ ਜਦੋਂ ਦਿਲ ਭਰ ਗਿਆ ਛੱਡ ਦਿੱਤੀ। ਇਸ ਅਨਮੋਲ਼ ਦਾਤ ਨੂੰ ਸੁਰ ਨਰ ਮੁਨ ਜਨ ਤੱਕ ਲੋਚਦੇ ਫਿਰਦੇ ਹਨ ਪਰ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਵੀ ਛੇਤੀ ਕਿਤੇ ਇਹ ਨਹੀਂ ਮਿਲਦੀ। ਤਾਂ ਤੇ ਜੇਕਰ ਕੋਈ ਇਸ ਮਿਲੀ ਦਾਤ ਨੂੰ ਗੁਰੂ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਦੇ ਮਨਾ ਕਰਨ ਦੇ ਬਾਵਜੂਦ ਵੀ ਬੱਜਰ ਕੁਰਹਿਤ ਕਰਕੇ ਵਿਸਾਰ ਦੇਵੇ ਅਤੇ ਜੇ ਪਸ਼ਚਾਤਾਪ ਕਰਨ ਲਈ ਆਵੇ ਤਾਂ ਗੁਰੂ ਸਰੂਪ ਪੰਜ ਪਿਆਰੇ ਇਸ ਬਾਬਤ ਕੋਈ ਵੀ ਫੇਸਲਾ ਲੈ ਸਕਦੇ ਹਨ। ਗੁਰੂ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਦੇ ਹੁਕਮ ਅਸੀਂ ਰੋਜ਼ਾਨਾ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਅਨੰਦ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਵਿਚ ਪੜਦੇ ਹਾਂ:

ਜੇ ਕੋ ਗੁਰ ਤੇ ਵੇਮੁਖੁ ਹੋਵੈ ਬਿਨੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਨ ਪਾਵੈ ॥
ਪਾਵੈ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਨ ਹੋਰ ਥੈ ਕੋਈ ਪੁਛਹੁ ਬਿਬੇਕੀਆ ਜਾਏ ॥
ਅਨੇਕ ਜੂਨੀ ਭਰਮਿ ਆਵੈ ਵਿਣੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਨ ਪਾਏ ॥
ਫਿਰਿ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਪਾਏ ਲਾਗਿ ਚਰਣੀ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਸਬਦੁ ਸੁਣਾਏ ॥
ਕਹੈ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਵੀਚਾਰਿ ਦੇਖਹੁ ਵਿਣੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਨ ਪਾਏ ॥੨੨॥
If someone becomes Vemukh (turns away from the Guru) from Guru, such person can never attain salvation. You may go and ask wise people and they too will say the same thing i.e. one cannot get salvation from anywhere else. Such person wanders in many life forms but does not get emancipation without the true Guru. Then when he seeks refuge in the true Guru, the true Guru enables him to listen to the Naam. Siri Guru jee (NanaK) asks us to think deeply that without the true Guru, one cannot get emancipation. (Translation: Bhai Kulbir Singh Jee)

ਤਾਂ ਤੇ ਬੱਜਰ ਕੁਰਹਿਤੀਆ ਹੋਣ ਤੋਂ ਬਾਅਦ ਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਸ਼ਰਨ ਵਿਚ ਮੁੜ ਆਇਆਂ ਹੀ ਛੁਕਟਾਰਾ ਹੋਵੇਗਾ ਨਹੀਂ ਤਾਂ ਨਹੀ। ਸਜਾ ਦਾ, ਤਨਖਾਹ ਦਾ ਵਿਧਾਨ ਪੁਰਾਤਨ ਸਮੇਂ ਤੋਂ ਚੱਲਿਆ ਆ ਰਿਹਾ ਹੈ ਇਹ ਵੱਖਰੀ ਗੱਲ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਇਸ ਵਿਚ ਵੀ ਹੁਣ ਢਿਲਆਈ ਆਉਣੀ ਸ਼ੁਰੂ ਹੋ ਗਈ ਹੈ ਪਰ ਇਸਨੂੰ ਕਿਸੇ ਇਕ ਜਥੇਬੰਦੀ ਨਾਲ ਹੀ ਜੋੜਨਾ ਸਰਾਸਾਰ ਆਪਣੀ ਬੁੱਧੀਦਾ ਦਿਵਾਲਾ ਕੱਢਣ ਵਾਲੀ ਗੱਲ ਹੈ। ਇਹ ਤਾਂ ਗੁਰੂ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਹੀ ਦਸ ਸਕਦੇ ਹਨ ਕਿ ਬੱਜਰ ਕੁਰਹਿਤ ਦੀ ਸਜਾ ਦਾ ਹੁਣ ਘੱਟ ਪੇਖਣ ਸੁਣਨ ਵਿਚ ਆਉਣ ਦਾ ਕਾਰਨ ਜਾਂ ਤਾਂ ਸਿੱਖ ਹੁਣ ਬੱਜਰ ਕੁਰਹਿਤੀਏ ਹੁੰਦੇ ਹੀ ਨਹੀਂ ਜਾਂ ਸਜਾ ਲਾਉਣ ਦਾ ਵਿਧਾਨ ਵੇਖੋ ਵੇਖੀ ਬੰਦ ਹੀ ਕਰ ਦਿੱਤਾ ਗਿਆ ਹੈ। ਦਾਸ ਇਸ ਬਾਰੇ ਕਹਿਣ ਤੋਂ ਸੰਕੋਚ ਹੀ ਕਰੇਗਾ। ਪਰ ਪੁਰਾਤਨ ਸਮੇਂ ਵਿਚ ਇਕ ਸਿੰਘ ਵਲੋਂ ਦਿੱਤੀ ਗਈ ਪੇਸ਼ੀ ਦਾ ਅੱਖੀ ਡਿੱਠਾ ਹਾਲ ਮਨ ਬੁੱਧੀਨੂੰ ਝੰਜੋੜਨ ਵਾਲਾ ਹੈ ਜੋ ਕਿ ਦਾਸ ਪੁਸਤਕ ‘ਤਵਾਰੀਖ਼ ਅਖੰਡ ਕੀਰਤਨੀ ਜੱਥਾ’ ‘ਚੋਂ ਇਥੇ ਪੇਸ਼ ਕਰਨਾਂ ਚਾਹੇਗਾ ਤਾਂ ਕਿ ਇਸ ਭੈੜੇ ਕੁਕਰਮ ਤੋਂ ਬਚਿਆ ਜਾ ਸਕੇ। ਹਾਲਾਂ ਕਿ ਰੱਬੀ ਦਰਬਾਰ ਦੀ ਮਰਯਾਦਾ-ਕਾਰਵਾਈ ਨੂੰ ਖੁੱਲਮ ਖੁੱਲ਼ੇ ਪ੍ਰਗਟ ਨਹੀਂ ਕੀਤਾ ਜਾ ਸਕਦਾ ਪਰ ਸਿੱਖੀ ਨੂੰ ਢਾਹ ਲਗਣ ਤੋਂ ਬਚਾਉਣ ਲਈ ਅਤੇ ਧਰਮ ਪ੍ਰਚਾਰ ਹਿਤ ਇਸ ਮਰਯਾਦਾ ਦਾ ਪ੍ਰਗਟਾਵਾ ਪੰਜ ਪਿਆਰਿਆਂ ਦੇ ਹੁਕਮ ਅਨੁਸਾਰ ਹੁੰਦਾ ਆਇਆਂ ਹੈ। ਕਿਸੇ ਸਿੰਘ ਵਲੋਂ ਹੋਈ ਪੇਸ਼ੀ ਦਾ ਹਾਲ ਪੁਸਤਕ ਦੇ ਕਰਤਾ (ਭਾ: ਜੋਧ ਸਿੰਘ ਜੀ) ਨੂੰ ਇਉਂ ਦੱਸਿਆ ਗਿਆਂ:

…“ਮੇਰਾ ਮੂੰਹ ਆਪਣੇ ਹੱਥੀ ਕਾਲਾ ਕਰਾਇਆ ਗਿਆ, ਮੇਰੀ ਕਾਲੀ ਕਰਤੂਤ ਇਕ ਪੱਟੀ (ਤਖਤੀ) ਤੇ ਲਿਖਕੇ ਮੇਰੇ ਗਲੇ ਲਟਕਾਈ ਗਈ। ਪਿੰਡ ਦੇ ਘੁਮਾਰ ਦੇ ਖੋਤੇ ਤੇ ਚੜ੍ਹਾ ਕੇ ਪੰਜਾਂ ਪਿੰਡਾਂ ਵਿੱਚ ਘੁਮਾਇਆਂ ਗਿਆਂ ਬਹੁਤ ਸੰਗਤਾਂ ਨੇ ਮੇਰੀ ਹਾਲਤ ਤੇ ਤਰਸ ਖਾਧਾ ਅਤੇ ਕਿਹਾ, ‘ਸੱਚੇ ਪਾਤਸ਼ਾਹ ਤੇਰੇ ਚੋਜ ਤੂੰ ਹੀ ਜਾਣੇ – ਇਸਨੂੰ ਬਖਸ਼ ਦਿਉ’। ਮੈਂ ਸਾਰੇ ਪਿੰਡਾਂ ਵਿੱਚ ਭੁੱਬਾਂ ਮਾਰ ਮਾਰ ਕੇ ਰੋਂਦਾ ਰਿਹਾ। ਪੰਜ ਛੇ ਘੰਟਿਆਂ ਬਾਅਦ ਮੈਨੂੰ ਪੰਜ ਪਿਆਰਿਆਂ ਦੇ ਦਰਬਾਰ ਵਿਚ ਲਿਆਂਦਾ ਗਿਆ।

ਗੁਰੂ ਦਰਬਾਰ ਵਿੱਚ ਆ ਕੇ ਮੈਂ ਅੱਧਮੁਆਂ ਛਪਾਲ ਢਹਿ ਪਿਆ ਤੇ ਭੁਬਾਂ ਮਾਰ ਮਾਰ ਕੇ, ਰੋ ਰੋ ਕੇ ਪਾਪ ਕੱਟਣ ਦੀਆ ਫਰਿਆਦਾਂ ਕੀਤੀਆਂ। ਅੰਤ ਪੰਜ ਪਿਆਰਿਆਂ ਦੇ ਜੱਥੇਦਾਰ ਬਾਊ ਮੱਲ ਸਿੰਘ ਜੀ ਨੇ ਜੋਸ਼ੀਲੀ ਅਤੇ ਕੜਕਵੀਂ ਆਵਾਜ਼ ਨਾਲ ਪੁੱਛਿਆ. ‘ਜੇ ਫੇਰ ਕਦੀ ਕੋਈ ਬੱਜਰ ਕੁਰਹਿਤ ਕਰੇਂਗਾ ਤਾਂ ਤੈਨੂੰ ਖ਼ਾਲਸਾ ਪੰਥ ਤੋਂ ਖਾਰਜ ਕਰ ਦਿੱਤਾ ਜਾਏਗਾ। ਇਸ ਵਾਰ ਤੈਨੂੰ ਗੁਰੂ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਨੇ ਬਖਸ਼ ਦਿੱਤਾ ਹੈ। ਹੁਣ ਤੈਨੂੰ ਜੋ ਤਨਖਾਹ ਲਾਵਾਂਗੇ ਤੂੰ ਉਸਨੂੰ ਪੂਰੀ ਕਰਨ ਦਾ ਪ੍ਰਣ ਕਰ ਅਤੇ ਮੱਥਾ ਟੇਕ। ਮੈਂ ਗੱਦ ਗੱਦ ਹੋ ਕੇ ਸ਼ੁਕਰਾਨਾ ਕੀਤਾ ਤੇ ਮੱਥਾ ਟੇਕਿਆ। ਮੈਨੂੰ ਹੁਣ ਤਾਂਈ ਤਨਖਾਹ ਲਗਾਈ ਯਾਦ ਹੈ। ਇਤਨਾ ਵੱਡਾ ਪਰਉਪਕਾਰ ਗੁਰੂ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਨੇ ਕਿਸੇ ਵਿਰਲੇ ਤੇ ਹੀ ਕੀਤਾ ਹੋਊ। ਮੈਨੂੰ ਜੋ ਤਨਖਾਹ ਲਾਈ ਉਹ ਇਹ ਸੀ:-

੧. ਅੱਜ ਤੋਂ ਬਾਅਦ ਸਾਰੀ ਉਮਰ ਪੰਜ ਪਿਆਰਿਆਂ ਵਿੱਚ ਸ਼ਾਮਿਲ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੋਣਾ।
੨. ਚਾਲ੍ਹੀ ਦਿਨ ਜ਼ਮੀਨ ਤੇ ਸੋਣਾ, ਮੰਜੇ ਤੇ ਨਹੀਂ ਸੋਣਾ।
੩. ਰਾਤ ਬਾਰਾਂ ਵਜੇ ਉਠਕੇ ਇਸ਼ਨਾਨ ਕਰਕੇ ਦੋ ਘੰਟੇ ਗੁਰਮੰਤ੍ਰ ਦਾ ਸਿਮਰਨ ਕਰਨਾ।
੪. ਚਾਲੀ ਸੇਰ (ਅੱਜ ੧੬ ਕਿਲੋ) ਕਣਕ ਧੋ ਕੇ ਸੁਕਾ ਕੇ ਦਿਨ ਆਟਾ ਆਪਣੇ ਹੱਥੀਂ ਪੀਸਣਾ (ਉਸ ਸਮੇਂ ਘਰੋਂ ਘਰੀਂ ਹੱਥ–ਚੱਕੀਆਂ ਹੁੰਦੀਆਂ ਸਨ)।
੫. ਪੰਜ ਪਾਠ ਨਿਤਨੇਮ ਦੇ, ਸੁਖਮਨੀ ਸਾਹਿਬ, ਸੋ-ਦਰ ਅਤੇ ਕੀਰਤਨ ਸੋਹਿਲੇ ਸਮੇਤ ਚਾਲੀ ਦਿਨ ਕਰਨੇ।
੬. ਇਹ ਤਨਖਾਹ ਪੂਰੀ ਕਰਨ ਤੋਂ ਬਾਅਦ ਇਕ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਅਖੰਡ ਪਾਠ ਕਰਾਉਣਾ ਅਤੇ ਵੱਧ ਤੋਂ ਵੱਧ ਪਾਠ ਸੁਨਣਾ।
੭. ਇਸ ਅਖੰਡ ਪਾਠ ਦੇ ਲੰਗਰ ਵਿੱਚ ਆਪਣੇ ਹੱਥੀਂ ਪੀਸਿਆ ਆਟਾ ਵੀ ਪਾਉਣਾ।
੮. ਫੇਰ ਰਾਤ ਬਾਰਾਂ ਵਜੇ ਉਠ ਕੇ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਸਰ ਸਰੋਵਰ ਵਿੱਚ ਇਸ਼ਨਾਨ ਕਰਕੇ ਨਿਤਨੇਮ ਕਰਕੇ ਕੀਰਤਨ ਸਰਵਣ ਕਰਨਾ।
੯. ਯਥਾ ਸ਼ਕਤ ਦੇਗ ਕਰਾਉਣੀ।
੧੦. ਫੇਰ ਜਲਦੀ ਤੋਂ ਜਲਦੀ ਪੰਜ ਪਿਆਰਿਆਂ ਦੇ ਦਰਬਾਰ ਵਿੱਚ ਆ ਕੇ ਤਨਖਾਹ ਪੂਰੀ ਕੀਤੀ ਦੀ ਅਰਦਾਸ ਕਰਵਾਉਣੀ ।

ਮੈਂ ਜਲਦੀ ਹੀ ਪੰਜ ਪਿਆਰਿਆਂ ਦੇ ਦਰਬਾਰ ਵਿੱਚ ਹਾਜ਼ਰ ਹੋ ਗਿਆ ਤੇ ਇਸ ਵੱਡੇ ਪਰਉਪਕਾਰ ਦੇ ਸ਼ੁਕਰਾਨੇ ਕੀਤੇ। ਪੰਜ ਪਿਆਰਿਆਂ ਨੇ ਮੇਰੇ ਨਾਲ ਚਿਮੜ ਚਿਮੜ ਕੇ ਐਸੇ ਨਾਮ ਅਭਿਆਸੀ ਖੰਡੇ ਖੜਕਾਏ ਕਿ ਗੁਰੂ ਦੀਆਂ ਗੁਰੂ ਹੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਹੀ ਜਾਣੇ ਮੈਨੂੰ ਕੋਈ ਸੁੱਧ ਬੁੱਧ ਨਾ ਰਹੀ। ਇਸ ਗੱਲ ਨੂੰ ਚਾਲੀ ਸਾਲਾਂ ਤੋਂ ਉਪਰ ਹੋ ਗਏ ਹਨ। ਸੱਚੇ ਪਾਤਸ਼ਾਹ ਦਾ ਸ਼ੁਕਰ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਮੈਨੂੰ ਨਰਕੋਂ ਕੱਢ ਲਿਆ। ਮੈਂ ਅਜੇ ਭੀ ਆਪਣੇ ਆਪ ਨੂੰ ਵੱਡਾ ਪਾਪੀ ਹੀ ਸਮਝਦਾ ਹਾਂ। ਮੇਰੇ ਲਈ ਅਰਦਾਸ ਕਰ ਦਿਆ ਕਰੋਂ”।…

ਗੁਰੂ ਆਪਣੀ ਨਦਰੋਂ ਕਰਮ ਕਰਕੇ ਆਪਣੀ ਸ਼ਰਨ ਵਿਚ ਹੀ ਰੱਖਣ ਤਾਂ ਕਿ ਇਸ ਕਾਮ ਕ੍ਰੋਧ ਦੀ ਝੁੱਲ ਰਹੀ ਅਥੰਮ ਹਨੇਰੀ ਤੋਂ ਬਚਿਆ ਜਾ ਸਕੇ।

ਕਾਮ ਕ੍ਰੋਧ ਬੁਰਿਆਈਆਂ ਸੰਗਿ ਸਾਧੂ ਤੁਟੁ ॥ (ਪੰਨਾ ੩੧੫)

ਭੁੱਲ ਚੁੱਕ ਦੀ ਖਿਮਾਂ।

ਗੁਰੂ ਚਰਨਾਂ ਦੇ ਭੌਰਿਆ ਦਾ ਦਾਸ,
ਜਸਜੀਤ ਸਿੰਘ

Leafy jee, we all are here to learn from each other and put the teachings of Guru Jee in our lives. So for this reason, if we talk calmly and respectfully we can all stand learn from each other, but if we get angry and flustered when something is not to our taste then there is not much benefit that we can hope to reap. Once again please allow me to apologise for all manmat. Obviously if you no longer wish to post on the forum then that is up to you, but I would say that we probably only stand to gain by staying.

Gursevak jee please read this post carefully for your answer: [gurmatbibek.com]

Bhai Jasjit Singh Jee, I felt very worried and uneasy reading your above post jee, but I do still agree with it. I hope that Vaheguru Jee ever saves filthy vikaaris like me from being in such a dire situation. I would like to ask for clarification, is Bhai Jodh Singh Jee talking about himself or someone else in the above passage?

Many thanks Bhai Jasjit Singh jeeo for posting this extract from Bhai Jodh Singh jee's book. Vaheguru! Vaheguru! My interior is trembling. Who would dare to commit a Bajjar Kurehit after reading this? Duhaaee hai Vaheguru jee! Save us from committing Kurehits!

And Bhai Jaskirat Singh jeeo, this is not Bhai Jodh Singh's own story but someone who narrated this to him.

Kulbir Singh

Bhai Jaskirat Singh Jio,

indeed, this Peshi alone is very alerting for all of us. May Guru Sahib save us to face such situation. As I mentioned "ਕਿਸੇ ਸਿੰਘ ਵਲੋਂ ਹੋਈ ਪੇਸ਼ੀ ਦਾ ਹਾਲ ਪੁਸਤਕ ਦੇ ਕਰਤਾ (ਭਾ: ਜੋਧ ਸਿੰਘ ਜੀ) ਨੂੰ ਇਉਂ ਦੱਸਿਆ ਗਿਆਂ:" It was narrated to Bhai Jodh Singh Jee by other Singh who committed Bajjer kurehat and went through this Peshi.

With Regards,
Daas

Thank you jee for clarification, that is what I thought. I didn't fully understand the above wording.

Vaheguru, I am still feeling shaken up after reading this.