Beautiful Video -Panj Pyare

Came across this on youtube! Gurooo!

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I remember reading in son chirhee charhee gainh that the panj pyare would never come into sangat with the uniform of the punj. The newly born khalsa would come into the rainsabaee by themselves and then the sevaadaars would change back into normal bastar and come into sangat without attracting attention.

Waheguru Ji ka khalsa, Waheguru Ji ki Fateh

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I remember reading in son chirhee charhee gainh that the panj pyare would never come into sangat with the uniform of the punj.

Daas also remember reading that too. If that was the case then I do not know when that tradition started in Jatha? However, Daas grown up seeing this from childhood and I have no particular say on this. Following is seems more than 20 years old video posted by someone of Shaheedi Gurpurb Smagam in Banga. Daas’s father was also in seva. As most of the Singhs in this video are Gurpuri Vaasi including Daas’s father so can not ask them about this. Either way I think better to leave it on Panj’s decision.

With Regards,
Daas

Previously, in Toronto too, Punj Pyare used to come out after Amrit Sinchaar but this practice stopped in late 1990s when we spoke to many senior Singhs in India, including Bhai Jodh Singh jee, about this. They all said that this practice is not in accordance to Gurmat and was not carried out during the times of Bhai Sahib. Bhai Jodh Singh jee had stated at that time that he does Sewa in Punj Pyare only if this practice is not carried out.

The most important point to ponder upon is that the 5 Gurmukhs are Punj Pyare only from the period they do their beginning Ardaas for Amrit Sinchaar until the last Ardaas after which Degh is distributed. After the last Ardaas, after which Degh is distributed, the Gurmukhs doing Sewa in Punj are not longer Punj Pyare and become ordinary Gurmukhs. A clear instruction is given during Amrit Sinchaar to not consider Gurmukhs doing Sewa in Punj, as Punj Pyare after the Amrit Sinchaar Samagam.

To act as Punj Pyare, and wear the Punj Pyare Vardee (Punj Pyare Baana) after the conclusion of Amrit Sinchaar Samagam, does not seem Gurmat. So much so that when they come out in Sangat, Sangat in Hazoori of Siri Guru Granth Sahib jee, stands up for them because it considers them to be Guru-roop where as the truth of the matter is that after the last Ardaas of Amrit Sinchaar, they cease to be Guru-roop Punj Pyare.

The above Vichaar is not intended as an insult to any Gurmukhs who in the past have been carrying out this practice. These Gursikhs most probably have been doing this unintentionally.

Rest Bhai, Guru Sahib knows the best.

Humbly,
Kulbir Singh

I too confirmed it from seniors. It was there at the time of Babu Mall Singh Ji. And Babu Mall Singh Ji is not supposed to have started a wrong practice. So probably, there is no big issue in appearing in the Sangat for few minutes, as it usually happened. That ultimately leaves a touching impression on all, in the Sangat. Everybody feels good at this sight. Sangat wished to have a glimpse of them. Those were special moments.

Bhai MB Singh jeeo, what is the answer to this:

Why are they acting like Punj Pyare, when they are no longer Punj Pyare after the Antim-Ardaas of Amrit Sinchaar?

Kulbir Singh

Before I start, I would like to say, I may be wrong in some of the remarks I am about to make.

First off all, the role of Five Elevtive Ones is 'authoritative', but not necessarily charismatic. While playing the role of Guroo Sahib, as Guroo Sahib Himself has taken abode in the Punj Pyaare, the Singhs doing Seva should also learn to be humble, and not directive. I feel normally people tend to forget or not realize that it is not the shiny orange Chola that makes you a Punj Pyara in am Amrit Sanchar, although this misunderstanding is usually believed to be true. It is after the Sangat has decided who are able to do Seva in Punj, and after Ardaas has been perfomed, that Guroo Sahib takes abode in them, fills them with the same energy that Guroo Sahib has, and takes on the Seva from them. After the Antim Ardaas has been performed, they are no longer Punj Pyare, although they may choose to remain in uniformly accepted attire for the Punj. They may even think of themselves as still being Punj Pyare, which is a type of Hankaar according to me, but the bottom line is, they are not. Now before arrows are shot at me, let's look at the general accepted Rehit of the Khalsa. The Ones we refer to as the historical Punj Pyare, at the time of the Vaisakhi of 1699, they were no doubt Punj Pyare at that time. But after they had completed the Seva, they had transformed back into their original positions. They weren't Punj Pyare after the Amrit Sanchar. It is generally seen in Jatha these days, that everyone is just a clone of one another. Whatever some Singhs in Jatha see others doing, without having a clue about whether it is alright in Sikhi, they do the same, and thus, make Jatha look bad. Jatha is not a group of copy cats, rather they are a force of strict rehitvaan tyaar bat tyaar GurSikhs. If today in Gurudvaras Sahibs, we usually see this trend of the "Punj Pyaare) appearing openly in 'Darbar', that does not mean such a ritualistic practice is Gurmat, or whether it is even ok in any sense whatsoever.

I do not consider them as Punj Pyaare in the video, as they have finished their task of doing Punj seva, and so they are no longer the Five Elected Ones. I repeat, it is not the shiny orange robes that makes you a Punj Pyaaraa, it is really after you haven been selected by Tyaar-bar-Tyaar GurSikhs and Ardaas has been done.


Vaheguroo JI KA KHalsa Vaheguroo JI KI Fatheh

Veer Ji, their role as Panj for Amrit is of course over after Ardaas. But, in the Sangat, they do not claim that they are Guru roop. Sangat is Guru Roop certainly. Simply dressed in Bana does not mean that they are acting like Panj. Their sight is precious and encouraging, for the Sangat. Sangat wants to see them in that Dress and it is not that they want to show off to the Sangat.

If wearing Panj Pyare Bana before Sangat is so undesired a practice, then why we request Panj Pyare to lead our processions/Nagar kirtans.

Guru Gobind Singh Sahib Ji is said to have brought out the PANJ, out of the tent, when they were dressed in their new dress. All the Sangat enjoyed their view.

No body loses with this practice, I feel.

In Gurmat traditions, Five Gursikhs are Guru Roop, even if they do Ardaas together or not and they assemble for Amrit Sanchar or for any other activity. And also, we should not expect Five Singhs to be in Saffron only, to be Guru Roop or respectable; they are PANCH PARVAAN PANCH PARDHAAN even if they are not in saffron.

If we are not ready to accept them as Panj Pyare, because Amrit Sanchaar is over, then how do we distribute DEG to Panj Gursikhs and assume that it is in the name of Guru.

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH



Picture of the Panj Pyare, in which two Gurmukhs, Giani Amolak Singh Ji and Sant Baba Puran Singh Ji were doing seva, coming to do Darshan of Sangat. Please do vichaar within yourselves of what caliber of Gursikhs you are dealing with who, while doing seva in the Punj Pyare, are present in that picture.

First, "They may even think of themselves as still being Punj Pyare, which is a type of Hankaar according to me''' - such a statement would be an attack on Gursikhs who were chosen BECAUSE of Gurmukh like attributes, of which excessive ego would most likely dismiss their participation in the seva. Pyaro, I doubt that ego-filled Gursikhs would have the Jeevan to satisfy the requirements of doing seva as part of the Punj Pyare in any Akhand Kirtani Smagam, where standards are kept high.

Second, as has already been stated, even though the Ardaas has been completed for the Amrit Sanchar, there are still 5 Gursikhs (Panch Pardhaan...) who are leading Gursikhs to the Darbaar. Bhai Jasbir Singh (Chandigarh) relayed an interesting story of Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh Ji, that even if 5 Sikhs came to his door, he would give them the highest of respect because they were the Panji Parmeshwar. It is their will to be present in the Sangat - so be it. they have already proven themselves through doing seva of the Punj Pyare to be the Panch Parvaani Guru Saroop.

If the Punj Pyare have unanimously decided to visit the Sangatan, they have taken a decision as the Guru Roop. No elder Gursikh individual or otherwise has the authority to contradict whatever practice the Guru Roop Punj Pyare do and no amount of citing Puratan precedence is going to change that precisely because it is a decision of the Punj Pyare, much as we have no right to question any decision made by them. If Guru Sahib said to install a SikhiToTheMax II projector and laptop for the Sangatan as a tankah, is someone here going to quote Puratan precedence as to why this should not be so as computers and laptops were not around in Puratan times? Guru Gobind Singh Ji could not turn away or question the decision of the Punj Gursikhs at Chamkaur Sahib - who is anyone here or anywhere who will question and cast doubt on what the Punj Gursikhs do? It is their Mauj. Sometimes, Guru Sahib even is even in a merciful mood to do Keertan in the form of the Punj Pyare. Again, these 5 Sikhs - 5 SIKHS - already proven to be Rehatvaan and good caliber Gursikhs - Panji Parmeshwar - weigh those words of Bhai Gurdas Sahib well.

If any Jathebandi or group has an issue with this practice, then a meeting should be held and a decision should be made on the matter - again by Punj Gursikhs with the authority of Guru Sahib in that decision - and inform the Sangat of the decision. Otherwise, he-said-she-said will be useless and cause undue stress amongst Sangatan with minor differences in practices. There are merits to both sides of the discussion, but the question remains more of consistency instead of correctness.

I am not in favor of either viewpoint, but will caution that casting doubt on a decision by Punj Gursikhs taken unanimously is something that even Guru Gobind Singh Ji could not question. If it is such a big deal, take it up with the Jathedar(s) of the Akhand Kirtani Jatha - another issue altogether - and get a decision with the seal of the Punj Pyare to resolve the matter.

Bhai MB Singh jeeo,

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Veer Ji, their role as Panj for Amrit is of course over after Ardaas. But, in the Sangat, they do not claim that they are Guru roop. Sangat is Guru Roop certainly. Simply dressed in Bana does not mean that they are acting like Panj. Their sight is precious and encouraging, for the Sangat. Sangat wants to see them in that Dress and it is not that they want to show off to the Sangat.

No doubt the sight is good but we can't continue with anti-Gurmat practices just for the sake of precious sights. They do act like Punj Pyare and the Sangat too is led to believe that they are Punj Pyare and that's why when they arrive Akhand Kirtan becomes Khand (i.e. stops) and Sangat in the Hazoori of King of Kings - Siri Guru Granth Sahib jee - gets up. Some members of Sangat even do Matha-tek to them. If they are not acting as Punj Pyare, then what else are they doing there?

There is a reason why all activity of Amrit Sinchaar is kept Gupt but now walking in Sangat like Punj Pyare and leading new Abhilaakhis, some parts of Amrit Sinchaar are made open.

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Guru Gobind Singh Sahib Ji is said to have brought out the PANJ, out of the tent, when they were dressed in their new dress. All the Sangat enjoyed their view.

But when Guru Sahib brought them out in open, Guru Sahib was still Guru Sahib and had not ceased to be Guru Sahib, as is the case with Punj Pyare now a days. So we can't equate the two situations.

The above is based on the meagre understanding that this Daas has and Daas could be wrong as well. Bhul Chuk dee Maafi jee.

Guru Sahib knows better.

Kulbir Singh

The practice is not according to Gurmat, in my opinion, whether it was an old jatha practice or not. If interrupting an Akhand Paath is considered a sacrilege then why is interrupting singing of the same Gurbani considered an acceptable practice? It cannot be termed as Akhand Kirtan either. Imagine doing this in Darbar Sahib i.e. taking newcomers from Akal Takhat to Darbar Sahib and interrupting kirtan and making sangat stand up. Not a Gurmat tradition. New Amritdharis already take Amrit in the presence of Guru Sahib so interrupting the kirtan smagam using the mere excuse of having darshan of Guru Sahib is pointless. Even when Guru Sahib’s saroop is brought to Gurdwara while diwan is going on, it is taken inside through the back door or any other way to avoid interrupting the diwan. Even if it is brought through the main entrance door, the sangat must not stand up and must remain seated. This is the true maryada. So even if Panj decide to bring Amritdharis in the diwan, sangat must not stand up and kirtaniya should keep singing Gurbani. Although Guru Sahib is present in Panj Pyare (even after Amrit Sanchaar), and they have the authority of Guru Sahib, nonetheless, sangat is already in the presence of Guru Sahib so standing up makes no sense. Guru Rakha

Vaheguroo ji, sorry I didn't realise or would not have posted it! I happened to come across it while on youtube and for that moment found it to be a very inspiring and uplifting scene, please accept my apologies.

I contacted one elder Singh Ji for that. He told that when Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh Ji was not participating in Amrit Sanchar and Babu Mal Singh Ji alongwith Bhai Atma Singh Ji, Master Joginder Singh Ji, Giani Dalip Singh Ji Phulanwal, Major Anand Singh Ji or other Singhs were doing the Sewa generally; they (Babu Mal singh Ji & others) started appearing in the Sangat after Amrit Sanchar. The probable reason quoted by Singh Ji is that, it was out of love for Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh Ji. Later on it continued because it was leaving good impact on Sangat and was inspiration.

I am still unable to see anything wrong in it. Times change, and so do our requirements. If the Sangat feels nothing good in it; we should bow before the SANGAT.

Bhul Chuk Maaf Hove Ji.

Panj Pyaarey have always played a prominent role in leading Sangat.
Panj Pyaarey have duties beyond giving Amrit. They also give hukum/directions
to sangat. In the past, nobody would eat langar or parshaad untill it was served to sangat.
We dont have any authority to tell sangat they can not give darshan to sangat.

Exactly how is Akhand paath or Akhand Kirtan broken when Panj Pyaarey give
darshan. During Akhand Kirtan and Akhand Paath people should have their eyes closed in the first place when in Darbar Sahib. I saw a video once of Panj Pyaarey in UK doing kirtan for sangat. In the panj was Bhai Rama Singh Ji. Who knows better then extinguished Gurmukhs as to what is Gurmat and not Gurmat?

Sangat has heard views from both sides and it is now up to individuals to decide what stance they want to have. Topic is now closed.

Admin.