Santhiya - Siri Jap jee Sahib - Pauri 12 to 15

Sangat jee,

The detailed santhiya for Siri Jap jee Sahib from pauri 12 to 15 is now available at the following link:

[www.gurmatbibek.com]

Please feel free to ask questions or clarifications.

Admin.

I do not know much about Gurbani Grammar so please address the following with as much detail as possible.

If a word has a sihari does it mean the word is a verb. Also how does one determine if the verb is past, present or future. Generally one can take the other words Guru mentions and see if the word is past , present or future, but how about in certain pangtia where it is not so easy to determine past, present of future tense, since there are not words that would indicate if the word is referring to past, presentm, or future?

For example the following pauri in Japji Sahib.

ਗਾਵਨਿ ਤੁਧਨੋ ਪੰਡਿਤ ਪੜਨਿ ਰਖੀਸੁਰ ਜੁਗੁ ਜੁਗੁ ਵੇਦਾ ਨਾਲੇ ॥
gaavan thudhhano pa(n)ddith parran rakheesur jug jug vaedhaa naalae ||

The word parhan has a sihari . I would believe the word is referring to the past tense ( has read) because if Guru Ji was referring to the word in present tense the word would be parhda and in the future tense the word would be parhna and have a kanna at the end? Is there some sort of method to determine if the word is used in past, present or future sense. For example if the word is referring to read, reading, will read?

I remember Bhai Kulbir SIngh Ji mentioning that when there is an aunkad on a word it means the word is not plural. On the word Jug in the above pangti there is a aunkad. So does this mean that Jug is not plural and not referring to the ages. What grammatical indication/ meaning does aunkad have at the end of words?

Also the word Vedaa in the pangti mentioned, should there be a bindi at the end since its plural. Or is the word not plural meaning the word Veda is not applying to the vedas or religious scriptures, instead the word Veda is applying to Gian or GurShabad.

Sorry for jumping a few pauris ahead on Japji Sahib. I was just curious because during nitnem this Pangti caught my attention most, and I was under the impression that Guru Ji is saying "In the past people praised you through the ritualistic worship, and the recitation of scriptures. But Waahegeguru via GurShabad your true praises will always exist in the hearts of devotees"

I interpreted veda to mean Gurshabad because I beleive Guru Sahib is saying Pandits have praised God through ritualistic reading of the vedas, and then Guru Sahib is stating " but true praise/singing will always be of Guru Shabad. So Im assuming there would be no bindi on Veda since its not plural? Bhai Joginer SIngh Ji (Talwara) has referred to the words as the Vedas in his steek. But Sri Dasmesh Pita Ji has already proclaimed that all other futile mats will eventually die out and Guru Shabad will reign supreme? . Also is there a pause after the word Rakeehsar. Also Bhai Sahib states that Jug is referring to ages ( Juga) which would make the word jug plural.But Bhai Kulbir Singh Ji stated that if aunkad is a the end of a word it means the word is not plural. The word Jug has an aunkad at the end?

Sumat Baksho

Sukhdeep Singh jeeo,

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If a word has a sihari does it mean the word is a verb. Also how does one determine if the verb is past, present or future.
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The rules are quite complicated and extensive because you not only have to see if the verb is past, present or future but also need to know if the doer is in first person, second person or third person and not to mention singular and plural. To make things more complicated, you have to take into consideration if the sentence is active or passive. To understand this, an extensive study in Gurbani Viyakaran (grammar) required and for the most part one needs to learn this in person from a Gursikh.


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ਗਾਵਨਿ ਤੁਧਨੋ ਪੰਡਿਤ ਪੜਨਿ ਰਖੀਸੁਰ ਜੁਗੁ ਜੁਗੁ ਵੇਦਾ ਨਾਲੇ ॥
gaavan thudhhano pa(n)ddith parran rakheesur jug jug vaedhaa naalae ||

The word parhan has a sihari . I would believe the word is referring to the past tense ( has read) because if Guru Ji was referring to the word in present tense the word would be parhda and in the future tense the word would be parhna and have a kanna at the end?
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Actually, this word ਪੜਨਿ is a verb in present tense. Guru Sahib in this shabad is addressing Vaheguru and this is evident because of the word ਤੁਧਨੋ. Both ਗਾਵਨਿ and ਪੜਨਿ are verbs in present continuous tense and the doers of these verbs are plural nouns i.e. ਪੰਡਿਤ and ਰਖੀਸੁਰ.


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I remember Bhai Kulbir SIngh Ji mentioning that when there is an aunkad on a word it means the word is not plural. On the word Jug in the above pangti there is a aunkad. So does this mean that Jug is not plural and not referring to the ages. What grammatical indication/ meaning does aunkad have at the end of words?
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It is true that where there is an aunkad, for the most part that noun is singular but there are exceptions. As for the meaning of ਜੁਗੁ ਜੁਗੁ, it means in every jug. The appearance of this word two times indicates the meaning ‘in every jug’. It is still a singular noun but the trouble I have with it is that because of the appearance of “in”, the aunkad should have been removed. Professor Sahib Singh has written that this is an exceptional case where, the aunkad is not removed even with the appearance of a preposition after this word. There are only few more words like this, where the aunkad in this grammatical situation is not removed.

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Also the word Vedaa in the pangti mentioned, should there be a bindi at the end since its plural. Or is the word not plural meaning the word Veda is not applying to the vedas or religious scriptures, instead the word Veda is applying to Gian or GurShabad.
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The word Veda should be pronounced with nasal sound in the end. The meaning is that the Pandits and Great Rishis (sages) along with the Vedas are singing your praises, O Lord. The nasal sound on Vedas is because this word is plural and has the preposition ‘Naale’ in the end. Please bear in mind that Siri Guru jee is stating (later in this shabad) that the whole universe is singing the praises of Vaheguru but in actuality only they can sing his praises who are dear to him. There are many others who sing his praises but they don't come in the mind of Guru Sahib.

There are many rules of Viyakaran and they apply in different situations. The rules of sihaari in the end or aunkad in the end or no maatra in the end are many. If Guru Sahib does kirpa, an attempt will be made to start an online tutorial on Viyakaran. This project is still in the mind of Gursikhs and has not yet manifested in the visible world. Guru Sahib kirpa karan.

Kulbir Singh

Thanks for the much needed advice Bhai Sahib

I thought Vedas is referring to GurShabad because previously Guru Ji states

ਗਾਵਨਿ ਤੁਧਨੋ ਇੰਦ੍ਰ ਇੰਦ੍ਰਾਸਣਿ ਬੈਠੇ ਦੇਵਤਿਆ ਦਰਿ ਨਾਲੇ ॥

gaavan thudhhano ei(n)dhr ei(n)dhraasan bait(h)ae dhaevathiaa dhar naalae |

All the devtas singh your praises and are sitting/begging knocking on the door. meaning begging for acceptance in Sach Khand? I assumed door is a verb because it has a sihari. When you do have a chance do please discuss this rule of sihari indicates word is a verb.

Thanks in advance

Sukhdeep Singh jeeo

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All the devtas singh your praises and are sitting/begging knocking on the door. meaning begging for acceptance in Sach Khand? I assumed door is a verb because it has a sihari. When you do have a chance do please discuss this rule of sihari indicates word is a verb.
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Here the word ਦਰਿ means 'On the doorstep' or 'at the doorstep'.

When there is a sihaari at the end of a noun, it can have a number of meanings, depending on the grammatical situation. It can indicate that it is a noun in feminine gender, it may be used in place of a bihaari, it may represent any of the preposition e.g. andar, vich, duaara, uppar, thale etc.

As for ਦਰਿ being a verb, I am not aware if this word is used as a verb anywhere in Gurbani.

Sometimes, when there is a sihaari at the end of a word it is to differentiate from its noun form e.g. ਪਰਗਾਸਿ and ਪਰਗਾਸੁ. In the following pankiti, the word this word is used as a noun:

ਹਿਰਦੈ ਜਿਨ ਕੈ ਹਰਿ ਵਸੈ ਤਿਤੁ ਘਟਿ ਹੈ ਪਰਗਾਸੁ ॥1॥
(In whose heart, Vaheguru resides, in that heart there is Parkash i.e. light or illumination).

In the following two pankitis this word is used as a verb:

ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸੇਵੈ ਲਗਿਆ ਕਢਿ ਰਤਨੁ ਦੇਵੈ ਪਰਗਾਸਿ ॥
(if one engages in the service of the Satguru, he gives the jewel (of Vaheguru) after illuminating (the inside of the seeker))


ਮੇਰੇ ਮੀਤ ਗੁਰਦੇਵ ਮੋ ਕਉ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮੁ ਪਰਗਾਸਿ ॥
(O my friend Guru Lord, kindly illuminate the Raam Naam for me).

Having said that, this word is not always a verb when it ends with a sihaari. In some situations it can be a nouns as well and in that case the sihaari will be giving the meaning of the preposition like vich, andar etc as it is the case with the following pankiti:

ਸਚੁ ਵਖਰੁ ਧਨੁ ਰਾਸਿ ਲੈ ਪਾਈਐ ਗੁਰ ਪਰਗਾਸਿ ॥
(Gather the true wealth which is collected through the Pargaas (light of divine knowledge) of Guru.)

Kulbir Singh

WaaheGuru....

Gurbani Grammar is much more complicated then I ever expected. You mentioned earlier that the best way to learn is to get santhiya from someone in person. This is not possible since I live in Hickville. IS there any other way to learn Gurbani Grammar? How did BHai Randhir Singh Ji learn Grammar im sure there were not many books on this topic in those times?

I was under the impression that ਦਰਿ (door) was a verb because in a previous pangti you explained Kagd ( paper) as "writing on paper" so I naturally assumed because it was assumed sihari means word is a verb. But through the word Pargaas you showed having sihari does not mean the word is a verb. SO Im guessing because of the preposition Naaley ਦਰਿ is not a verb?

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SO Im guessing because of the preposition Naaley ਦਰਿ is not a verb?

The preposition derived from the sihaari of ਦਰਿ is not naaley but uppar. This meaning of uppar or uttay is derived from the sihaari. Naalay is also a preposition but it goes with Devtiyaan. Many Indras seated on their thrones, along (naaley) with the devtaas, are at your doorstep, singing your praises.

In Punjabi, the meaning would be:

ਕਈ ਇੰਦਰ ਆਪਣੇ ਸਿੰਘਾਸਣਾ ਤੇ ਬੈਠੇ, ਦੇਵਤਿਆਂ ਨਾਲ (ਸਹਿਤ), ਤੇਰੇ ਦਰ ਉਤੇ ਤੈਨੂੰ ਗਾਂ ਰਹੇ ਹਨ।

Regarding learning grammar, in the future, some sort of online course to study grammar will be started. Guru Sahib kirpa karan.

Kulbir Singh

After reading this, it seems Viakaran is very complicated stuff. I person like me with little knowledge, it would probably take atleast a lifetime to master Gurbani Viakaran. Can I suggest to Kulbir Singh if he can, to create a text book type tutorial which can teach beginners like me from start to end. This is something I'm sure alot of Sikhs interested in the study of Gurbani would want to learn.

GSC733 jeeo

Mastering Gurbani Viyakaran is not possible but even if we understand small bit of it, it greatly enhances our understanding of Gurbani.

Depending on the background of the student, it takes different amount of time to understand Gurbani. A lot depends on how much vocabulary one has.

If Guru Sahib wills, some kind of Gurbani course will be started to enhance Gurbani understanding of Gursikhs.

Kulbir Singh

In the mool mantar we say Sat Nam
Sat has a sihari and Naam has a aunkad.

What is the meaning of Sat. Is sat a preposition, verb or noun. How do we determine the meaning of Sat.

Sat can be refered to as a preposition meaning naam is inside? Or it can mean verb meaning doing Naam Abhyiaas? It can also be used as a noun meaning True Name? How does one determine the meaning using Grammar. Does the word Naam with an aunkad at the end clearify the meaning of Sat?

The word Sat seem like a verb to me but I have no proof. I get the feeling Guru Ji is giving the Hukum to Jaap Naam of the one true name.

Sukhdeep Singh jeeo,

The Mool Mantra contains the qualities of Vaheguru and does not contain any Hukam for Updesh and for this reason does not have any visible verb. The word "Sat" according to translators means either an adjective or a noun. If it is an adjective, then it is the adjective of all nouns following it and not just of "ਨਾਮੁ". Why? Because if it was the adjective of "ਨਾਮੁ", then it would have come off when "ਨਾਮੁ" was dropped in the shortest version of the Manglacharan - ੴਸਤਿਗੁਰਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥

The Four versions of the Manglacharan in Gurbani are as follows:

ੴਸਤਿਨਾਮੁਕਰਤਾਪੁਰਖੁਨਿਰਭਉਨਿਰਵੈਰੁਅਕਾਲਮੂਰਤਿਅਜੂਨੀਸੈਭੰਗੁਰਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥

ੴਸਤਿਨਾਮੁਕਰਤਾਪੁਰਖੁਗੁਰਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥

ੴਸਤਿਨਾਮੁਗੁਰਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥

ੴਸਤਿਗੁਰਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥

In each of the shortened version of the Manglacharan, some nouns are dropped and when ਨਾਮੁ is dropped, its adjective too should have dropped. Since ਸਤਿ is not dropped when ਨਾਮੁ is dropped, we can safely assume one of the two possibilities:


1. ਸਤਿ is not the adjective of ਨਾਮੁ at all and is a noun,

2. ਸਤਿ is an adjective but not of ਨਾਮੁ alone but of all nouns that appear in the full version of the Manglacharan and for this reason is not dropped when ਨਾਮੁ is dropped in the last and the most common version of the Manglacharan,

In either case, one thing is for sure that ਸਤਿ is not the exclusive adjective of ਨਾਮੁ. For this reason, while writing the Manglacharan in padd-chhed form it is wrong to write ਸਤਿਨਾਮੁ together.

Having said the above, my humble opinion is that the ਸਤਿ is a noun which means one who possesses Truth. From Sihaari we derive the meaning 'Vaala', and the meaning is "Sat waala". Just like one who does daan is called "Daanee", one who has "Sat" is called "Satee" and here the word "Sat" with sihaari is the shortened form of "Satee". I could be wrong in my assessment and it could be that the word "Sat" is an adjective of all nouns in Manglacharan but the reason why I am hesitant in classifying ਸਤਿ as an adjective is that the Mool Mantra does not contain any adjective at all and all words in it are nouns, including the first word which is a numerical - 1.

Gurbani is agam agaadh bodh. Only Guru Sahib knows the ultimate truth.


Daas,
Kulbir Singh

Kulbir Singh Wrote:

>
> Having said the above, my humble opinion is that
> the ਸਤਿ is a noun which means one who
> possesses Truth. From Sihaari we derive the
> meaning 'Vaala', and the meaning is "Sat waala".
> Just like one who does daan is called "Daanee",
> one who has "Sat" is called "Satee" and here the
> word "Sat" with sihaari is the shortened form of
> "Satee".
>


Bhai Sahib, I was wondering what is the meaning of the following pangti

ba(n)dh khalaasee bhaanai hoe ||

hor aakh n sakai koe ||

You mentioned previously that
" When there is a sihaari at the end of a noun, it can have a number of meanings, depending on the grammatical situation. It can indicate that it is a noun in feminine gender, it may be used in place of a bihaari, it may represent any of the preposition e.g. andar, vich, duaara, uppar, thale etc"

Since there is a sihari in Bandh could the sihari be a substitute for bihari giving the meaning bandh a possessive meaning. Meaning that one has been bonded/enslaved ( Bandh)and been free ( Khalasee) due to Akal Purakh? Does it go against grammar rules to give a word with a sihari the meaning of a bihari if the word next to it already has a bihari ( ex Khalasee) in it? Also if Bandh is given a bihari meaning (possessive meaning) is there a pause after Bandh and Khalasee?

Or is the word Bandh a preposition. Meaning being from outside attachments comes only through Akal Purakh Jis will?


Also I was wondering the meaning of the following pangti

akharaa sir sa(n)jog vakhaan ||

The noun head ( sir) also has a sihari. Does this mean the noun is a preposition and referring to Naam given inside your head in which the words( Gurmantar) is planted inside you Does the word Vakhan mean Vakhanee/Abhyiaasi? Or does Vakhan refer to internal abhyiaas/Jaap?


In the next Pangti Guru Ji sAYS

jin eaehi likhae this sir naahi ||

Again sir has a sihari but it does not appear to have the same meaning as the previous pangti. It appers Guru Ji is talking about "above the head " Jaam Kaal does not appear for those who recite ( Vakhan) Gurmantar?

What does sanjog mean in the previous pangti? What meaning does the aunkad have on the word sanjog?

Sukhdeep Singh jeeo,

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Bhai Sahib, I was wondering what is the meaning of the following pangti

ba(n)dh khalaasee bhaanai hoe ||

hor aakh n sakai koe ||

ਬੰਦਿ ਖਲਾਸੀ ਭਾਣੈ ਹੋਇ ॥ ਹੋਰੁ ਆਖਿ ਨ ਸਕੈ ਕੋਇ ॥

The word ਬੰਦਿ is a noun in Apadaan Kaarak (Ablative case) and the meaning is ਬੰਦ ਤੋਂ ਖਲਾਸੀ (Freedom from bond or prison). The word ਬੰਦ is a Farsi word that means prison, bond or stoppage. Siri Guru jee is saying that emancipation or freedom from prison (of this world or maya) can be obtained only through the Bhaana (will) of Vaheguru. There is no other way that one can say.

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Since there is a sihari in Bandh could the sihari be a substitute for bihari giving the meaning bandh a possessive meaning. Meaning that one has been bonded/enslaved ( Bandh)and been free ( Khalasee) due to Akal Purakh? Does it go against grammar rules to give a word with a sihari the meaning of a bihari if the word next to it already has a bihari ( ex Khalasee) in it? Also if Bandh is given a bihari meaning (possessive meaning) is there a pause after Bandh and Khalasee?

ਬੰਦਿ is a not in the possessive meaning but the sihaari here represents the preposition "from" and this word is a noun in Ablative case.

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Or is the word Bandh a preposition. Meaning being from outside attachments comes only through Akal Purakh Jis will?

ਬੰਦਿ is not a preposition but the sihaari of this word represents the preposition "From".

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Also I was wondering the meaning of the following pangti

akharaa sir sa(n)jog vakhaan ||

The noun head ( sir) also has a sihari. Does this mean the noun is a preposition and referring to Naam given inside your head in which the words( Gurmantar) is planted inside you Does the word Vakhan mean Vakhanee/Abhyiaasi? Or does Vakhan refer to internal abhyiaas/Jaap?

ਅਖਰਾ ਸਿਰਿ ਸੰਜੋਗੁ ਵਖਾਣਿ ॥ ਜਿਨਿ ਏਹਿ ਲਿਖੇ ਤਿਸੁ ਸਿਰਿ ਨਾਹਿ ॥

Siri Guru jee is stating in the aforementioned pankitis that the account of Sanjog (or Vijog) that is written on the forehead of creatures, is written through words but the one who writes this account of Karma on everyone's foreheads, does not have any such account written on his forehead. In other words, Vaheguru who is the writer of Karma on everyone's foreheads is free from the effect or influece of Karma.

The word ਸਿਰਿ has a sihaari in the end representing the the preposition "on" and this word is a noun in Locative case (Adhikaran Kaarak).

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In the next Pangti Guru Ji sAYS

jin eaehi likhae this sir naahi ||

Again sir has a sihari but it does not appear to have the same meaning as the previous pangti. It appers Guru Ji is talking about "above the head " Jaam Kaal does not appear for those who recite ( Vakhan) Gurmantar?

The word ਸਿਰਿ in both pankitis has the same meaning i.e. "on the forehead". The sihaari represents the preposition "on" in both cases. The meaning of this pankiti is already been explained above.

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What does sanjog mean in the previous pangti? What meaning does the aunkad have on the word sanjog?

Sanjog and Vijog are two powers of Karma. The power of sanjog provides and enables people to meet people or people to attain possessions. The power of Vijog on the other hand takes away possessions and separate people from each other. Both Sanjog and Vijog run the lives of people in this world and these two powers are in turn based on one's Karma.

Kulbir Singh

thanks for the explanation BHai Sahib, but can you explain how you got these meanings according to grammar.

I dont understand how sanjog is referring to powers of Karma . I do believe sanjog is referring to power, but exactly how does sanjog refer to karma of being separated or united to people and possessions. How did you get these meanings according to grammar. I thought sanjog meant union with WaaheGuru, and I thought lekhey is referring to the writing ( reciting) of Gurmantar in the mind?

Since sir ( head) is referring to surat wouldnt the preposition "in" instead of "on" be more appropriate?

Veer Sukhdeep Singh jeeo,

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thanks for the explanation BHai Sahib, but can you explain how you got these meanings according to grammar.

As far as I know, the meanings this daas did in the previous post were according to Viyakaran. Please let me know what was lacking as far as viyakaran is concerned.

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I dont understand how sanjog is referring to powers of Karma . I do believe sanjog is referring to power, but exactly how does sanjog refer to karma of being separated or united to people and possessions?

Sanjog and Vijog according to Gurbani are the forces of Karma that run the world. Please ponder upon the following pankiti of Siri Jap jee Sahib:

ਸੰਜੋਗੁ ਵਿਜੋਗੁ ਦੁਇ ਕਾਰ ਚਲਾਵਹਿ ਲੇਖੇ ਆਵਹਿ ਭਾਗ ॥

Sanjog and Vijog here means those powers of Vaheguru according to which creatures meet and separate; creatures receive and lose substances.

A word may have different meanings. Sanjog means union with Vaheguru, it also means relationship and it also means the power of Vaheguru through which creatures meet other creatures and creatures receive substances. Vijog is the opposite of Sanjog. It is such power through which creatures get separated from other creatures and they lose worldly substances.

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How did you get these meanings according to grammar. I thought sanjog meant union with WaaheGuru, and I thought lekhey is referring to the writing ( reciting) of Gurmantar in the mind

Likhay here in this pankiti does not mean writing of Gurmantra in the mind and Sirr does not mean mind or surat. As the matter of fact, sirr never means mind or surat in Gurbani. It always means either the forehead or the head itself. I know in English head also means mind or brain but such is not the case in Gurbani.

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Since sir ( head) is referring to surat wouldnt the preposition "in" instead of "on" be more appropriate?

The sirr does not mean surat but means forehead here. Sirr does not come in the meanings of mind, intelligence or surat anywhere in Gurbani.

Kulbir Singh

Bhai Sahib Im not claiming in any shape or from that I understand the pangti. But I am highly convinced that the meanings refer more to Naam and less to karma. I only asked that you to clarify your translation.

Also I was thinking more about you comment "The word ਬੰਦਿ is a noun in Apadaan Kaarak (Ablative case)" today and I dont understand how anywords in Gurbani could be considered to be foreign words. Gurbani is unique that we cant say it has a specific language even though the majority of the language is in Punjabi. This is the uniqueness of Gurbani I dont understand how we can apply this English rule to the divine language of Gurbani.

Veer Sukhdeep Singh jeeo,

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Bhai Sahib Im not claiming in any shape or from that I understand the pangti. But I am highly convinced that the meanings refer more to Naam and less to karma. I only asked that you to clarify your translation.

Gurbani is Agam Agaadh Bodh. For this reason, I don't claim that the understanding that I have of Gurbani, is perfect. May Guru Sahib do kirpa on us so that we may understand Gurbani and obey the hukams of Gurbani.

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Also I was thinking more about you comment "The word ਬੰਦਿ is a noun in Apadaan Kaarak (Ablative case)" today and I dont understand how anywords in Gurbani could be considered to be foreign words. Gurbani is unique that we cant say it has a specific language even though the majority of the language is in Punjabi. This is the uniqueness of Gurbani I dont understand how we can apply this English rule to the divine language of Gurbani.

It is a universally accepted principle that Gurbani contains words from many languages. Guru Sahib did not invent a new language to write Gurbani. If such had been the case, Guru Sahib would have provided glossary or dictionary of words as well. Having said that, this is also true that many terms and words already in use were redefined in many cases.

Regarding the word ਬੰਦਿ , it is a fact and all translators agree that this is a Farsi word. There are words from dozens of languages in Gurbani. This is a fact we can't deny, nor is there in merit in denying it.

Regarding applying an English rule to divine language of Gurbani, such is not the case. Grammar is same throughout the world. Every language has nouns, verbs, pronouns, adverbs, adjectives etc. To say that Gurbani does not have these grammatical concepts is not correct. The difference in Gurbani is the uniqueness of how words change their forms and spellings when they are placed in different grammatical concepts. The Ablative Case of nouns (or other 8 cases) are not peculiar to English. Thousands of years before English, Sanskrit had already defined these noun cases. Gurbani and all other languages have these cases in their languages (though some may not have all 8).

The truth of the matter is that the word ਬੰਦਿ is a noun in Ablative Case and in Punjabi this is called Apadaan Kaarak and in Sanskrit I believe this is that 6th or 7th Vibhukti (I will have to recheck this).

Rest, Gurbani is Agam Agaadh Bodh. Who can know the limit or end of Gurbani?

Kulbir Singh

Bhai Sahib

Im not denying that Bandh is a farsi word. Im merely stating that no words in Gurbani could be considered to be foreign. My understanding of a noun in Ablative case in English is that the word has origins outside of the Greek- European language. So I do not understand how certain words in Gurbani could be consideres Ablative. There are no words that are foreign in Gurbani. Language of Gurbani is divine I dont undestand how this rule can apply to Gurbani which is beyond regions.

Also can you explain how Sanjog is referring to uniting with people and possessions.
My understadning of Sanjog is connecting with Akal Puraks divine power/force ( Kudrat)

Sukhdeep Singh jeeo,

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My understanding of a noun in Ablative case in English is that the word has origins outside of the Greek- European language. So I do not understand how certain words in Gurbani could be consideres Ablative. There are no words that are foreign in Gurbani. Language of Gurbani is divine I dont undestand how this rule can apply to Gurbani which is beyond regions.

My understanding about Ablative is not the above. I am talking about Ablative strictly in the grammatical sense. Please refer to the following link to know more of Ablative Case:

My knowledge of Apadaan Kaarak is based on studying Gurbani Viyakaran written by Professor Sahib Singh and Bhai Joginder Singh Talwara. In Sanskrit this Kaarak is called "Panchwi Vibhukti" i.e. the fifth Vibhukti. As stated before, every language has grammatical situations of nouns that fall in one of the 8 cases of Kaarak. This is an advanced subject of Viyakaran, especially as it related to Gurbani Viyakaran. There are many pre requisite courses one has to do to understand it.

Band-Khalaasi means "Khalaasi from Bandi". Khalaasi means freedom and Bandi means imprisonment. Freedom from Imprisonment. For this reason it is a noun in Ablative Case.

Please note the following two definitions from Wikipedia:

Ablative of place
Active motion away from a place is only one particular use of the ablative case and is called the ablative of place from which. Nouns, either proper or common, are almost always used in this sense with accompanying prepositions of ab/ā/abs, "from"; ex/ē, "out of"; or dē, "down from". E.g. ex agrīs, "from the country"; ex Graeciā ad Italiam navigāvērunt, "They sailed from Greece to Italy."

[edit] Ablative of separation
A closely related construction is called the ablative of separation. This usage of the ablative implies that some person or thing is separated from another. No active movement from one location to the next occurs; furthermore, ablatives of separation sometimes lack a preposition, particularly with certain verbs like cáreō or līberō. E.g. Cicerō hostēs ab urbe prohibuit, "Cicero kept the enemy away from the city"; Eōs timōre līberāvit, "He freed them from fear."

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Also can you explain how Sanjog is referring to uniting with people and possessions.
My understadning of Sanjog is connecting with Akal Puraks divine power/force ( Kudrat)

As I stated before, Sanjog has many meanings and connecting to Akal Purakh is just one of the meanings. When Sanjog and Vijog appear together, they refer to the Karmic rule under which people meet and get separated. Creatures meet because of Karmic Debt and when this debt is paid, they get separated. Same way because of Karmic reasons, creatures get material possessions and when they exhaust those rights, the material possessions disappear. The Karmic force that enables people to meet or get material possessions has been referred to as Sanjog in Gurbani and the Karmic force that separates people and take away possessions is called Vijog. Please ponder upon the following Pankiti:

ਸੰਜੋਗੀ ਮਿਲਿ ਏਕਸੇ ਵਿਜੋਗੀ ਉਠਿ ਜਾਇ ॥
(Because of Sanjog, creatures meet and get together and because of Vijog they are separated)

The above pankiti clearly states Sanjog and Vijog as reasons why people meet and separate. Another interesting Pankiti is as follows:

ਹੁਕਮਿ ਸੰਜੋਗੀ ਆਇਆ ਚਲੁ ਸਦਾ ਰਜਾਈ ॥
(In his hukam, due to the sanjog force you have come to this world; always walk in his will i.e. obey his will).

Kulbir Singh

Bhai Sahib there is no mention of the word seperation in the pangti

ਅਖਰਾ ਸਿਰਿ ਸੰਜੋਗੁ ਵਖਾਣਿ ॥ ਜਿਨਿ ਏਹਿ ਲਿਖੇ ਤਿਸੁ ਸਿਰਿ ਨਾਹਿ ॥

The main emphasis on this pauri seems to be emphasis on Kudrat which is understood internally through Naam. So im still puzzled as to how you beleive this is referring to meeting of people. If this was true it would seem like a random statement if we take into consideraton previous and proceeding Pauri.

Sukhdeep Singh jeeo,

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Bhai Sahib there is no mention of the word seperation in the pangti

ਅਖਰਾ ਸਿਰਿ ਸੰਜੋਗੁ ਵਖਾਣਿ ॥ ਜਿਨਿ ਏਹਿ ਲਿਖੇ ਤਿਸੁ ਸਿਰਿ ਨਾਹਿ ॥

The main emphasis on this pauri seems to be emphasis on Kudrat which is understood internally through Naam. So im still puzzled as to how you beleive this is referring to meeting of people. If this was true it would seem like a random statement if we take into consideraton previous and proceeding Pauri.

True, there is no mention of "Vijog" or separation here but that is assumed because if Sanjog that is written on everyone's forehead, is described by letters, then so is Vijog.

But where is the emphasis of Kudrat here? Where is the mention of Naam ? Naam is mentioned in previous pankitis but here in these two pankitis the subject matter is Sanjog written on the forehead of creatures. In actuality, the subject matter is Akhar or letters. Though his creation is limitless, infinite but still whatever we know of this creation is still described through Akhar or letters.

The translations that I have read have done similar meanings of these pankitis. Rest Guru Sahib knows.

Kulbir Singh

ਆਪੀਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੈ ਆਪੁ ਸਾਜਿਓ ਆਪੀਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੈ ਰਚਿਓ ਨਾਉ ॥
aapeenhai aap saajiou aapeenhai rachiou naao ||
He Himself created Himself; He Himself assumed His Name.

ਦੁਯੀ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਸਾਜੀਐ ਕਰਿ ਆਸਣੁ ਡਿਠੋ ਚਾਉ ॥
dhuyee kudharath saajeeai kar aasan ddit(h)o chaao ||
Secondly, He fashioned the creation; seated within the creation, He beholds it with delight.

ਦਾਤਾ ਕਰਤਾ ਆਪਿ ਤੂੰ ਤੁਸਿ ਦੇਵਹਿ ਕਰਹਿ ਪਸਾਉ ॥
dhaathaa karathaa aap thoo(n) thus dhaevehi karehi pasaao ||
You Yourself are the Giver and the Creator; by Your Pleasure, You bestow Your Mercy.

ਤੂੰ ਜਾਣੋਈ ਸਭਸੈ ਦੇ ਲੈਸਹਿ ਜਿੰਦੁ ਕਵਾਉ ॥
thoo(n) jaanoee sabhasai dhae laisehi ji(n)dh kavaao ||
You are the Knower of all; You give life, and take it away again with a word.

ਕਰਿ ਆਸਣੁ ਡਿਠੋ ਚਾਉ ॥੧॥
kar aasan ddit(h)o chaao ||1||
Seated within the creation, You behold it with delight. ||1||