pronounce the aunkar

I have difficulties sometimes differentiating as when to pronounce the aunkar at the end of the word when the haha is present,for example ਰਾਹੁ . Could any one kindly give me some guidance on how to differentiate? Thanks

There are different schools of thought on Gurbani Uchaaran. Some are in favour of pronouncing the Laghu-Maatra (Aunkad and Sihaari) at the end but some only favour pronouncing Laghu Maatra only for Haaha ending words etc. Well, as far as Kirtan is concerned, the Laghu-Maatra can't be pronounced because while doing Kirtan, Laghu-Maatra becomes Deeragh-Maatra i.e. Aunkad becomes a Hora and Sihaari becomes a Laam. Bhai Joginder Singh Talwara himself confirmed this with me.

If someone wants to pronounce these Laghu-Maatra, they should be very subtle and care should be taken that an Aunkad does not become a Hora and a Sihaari does not become a Laam.

Having said that, the majority of Gursikhs around the world don't pronounce the Laghu-Maatras at the end of words. A Gurmukh who took Santhiya from Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh jee, confirmed that he did not learn to pronounce the Sihaaris and Aunkads at the end of words i.e. they did not pronounce the Sihaari at the end of "Aad" or "Jugaad" as some new schools of thought are promoting.

Daas has noticed that when you attempt to pronounce the Aunkads and Sihaari at the end of the words, all attention just gets consumed by this and the Paath becomes mechanical.

In any case, Guru Sahib alone knows the truth.

Kulbir Singh

thaxz for starting this thread Veer Harinder jeo, was wondering the same!

so singh ji , for ਰਾਹੁ should it be pronounced?

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Bhai Kulbir Singh ji
Daas has noticed that when you attempt to pronounce the Aunkads and Sihaari at the end of the words, all attention just gets consumed by this and the Paath becomes mechanical.

Dass has noticed this to!

Chota veer

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so singh ji , for ਰਾਹੁ should it be pronounced?

Daas believes that ਰਾਹੁ should be pronounced as Raah but if someone does want to pronounce the Aunkad, care should be taken as to not to pronouce it as a Hora. There is no point arguing or debating over this issue.

Kulbir Singh

Thanks for your replies. I would love to get a copy of Bhai Joginder Singh Talwara jees Text on pronouncing Gurbani. Can I get a copy in the UK?

Kulbir singh jee

i have one question that i am curious about, when Sri Guru Arjun Dev Sahib Jee would recite Gurbani and Bhai Gurdas Jee would wirte it, wouldn't guru sahib have to recite the gurbani with all the laga mantar?

In daas's opinion, how would bhai gurdas jee know what to write when guru sahib says naam. For example naam can be spelled in various ways, how would bhai gurdas jee know that he should write the muma with a sihari, or aunkand, or just as a mukta? In addition, if guru sahib would recite ਰਾਹੁ, guru sahib would have to recite aunkad on the haha becuase then bhai gurdas jee would know what to write.

So what i am trying to say is that inorder to keep the respect for gurbani we should recite all the laga mantar in gurbani.

Please tell me if what i am saying is right or wrong

bhul chuk maad

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Kulbir singh jee
i have one question that i am curious about, when Sri Guru Arjun Dev Sahib Jee would recite Gurbani and Bhai Gurdas Jee would wirte it, wouldn't guru sahib have to recite the gurbani with all the laga mantar?
In daas's opinion, how would bhai gurdas jee know what to write when guru sahib says naam. For example naam can be spelled in various ways, how would bhai gurdas jee know that he should write the muma with a sihari, or aunkand, or just as a mukta? In addition, if guru sahib would recite ਰਾਹੁ, guru sahib would have to recite aunkad on the haha becuase then bhai gurdas jee would know what to write.
So what i am trying to say is that inorder to keep the respect for gurbani we should recite all the laga mantar in gurbani.
Please tell me if what i am saying is right or wrong

Gursevak Singh jeeo,

How Guru Sahib used to do Uchaaran of Gurbani is not something we mortal beings can speculate, 300 - 500 years later. You have stated your opinion that Guru Sahib used to pronounce Laga Maatra when doing Uchaaran of Gurbani but here is what this Daas has to say about this:

1. First of all, Guru Sahib had written Gurbani of all previous Guru Sahibaan and his own Baani as well. The Pothis of Govindvaal Sahib were brought just for this purpose, so that Gurbani can be arranged and compiled in a way that Guru Sahib wanted. I think Bhai Gurdaas jee did have written Pothis of pretty much all Gurbani at the time Aad-Bir was written.

2. If you believe that Guru Sahib did Uchaaran of Gurbani and Bhai Gurdaas jee wrote it without any written reference, and you claim that Guru Sahib must have done Uchaaran of Laga-Maatra, then how do you explain how "Ik Oankaar" was written? How did Bhai Gurdaas jee know how to write Oankaar the way it's written in Manglacharan. Guru Sahib must have explained it to Bhai Sahib, right?

3. How about the words like: ਮਃ ੩ ॥. Guru Sahib must have done the Uchaaran Mahalla Teeja, right? How did Bhai Gurdaas jee know if he was supposed to write the shorter version of it? Guru Sahib must have explained it to Guru Sahib, right?

4. There are so many places where Bindis and Tippees are not written but their Uchaaran is done. Sant Gurbachan Singh Bhindranwale himself has suggested many places where Bindis and tippees are missing. As an example, the third Salok of Siri Sukhmani Sahib has a word - ਢਢੋਲਿ. Here the Tippee is missing on the first alphabet but Sant Bhindranwale has instructed us to place a tippee there. So are you suggesting that Guru Sahib did not do uchaaran of tippee here? Or are you saying that Guru Sahib did not do Uchaaran but Sant Bhindranwale wrongfully asked us to put tipee there? Either way its a lose lose situation. So, we have to admit that Guru Sahib did do Uchaaran of Bindis and Tippees but for whatever reason, they were not written in Gurbani. So this theory that Bhai Gurdaas jee wrote exactly how Guru Sahib did Uchaaran is not correct. The reality is that most of the Gurbani was originally written by Guru Sahibaan themselves and at the time of compiling Aad Bir of Maharaj, Bhai Gurdaas jee copied most of Gurbani from Guru Sahib's Pothis (including Gobindvaal waali Pothis) and Guru Sahib was actively involved, when Bhai Gurdaas jee was writing. Guru Sahib did tell Bhai Gurdaas jee the order of Shabads but written Shabads were available in form of Pothis.

More can be written but I think we should not get into this debate and focus on getting the Gurbani to reside in our hearts.

Daas,
Kulbir Singh

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I have difficulties sometimes differentiating as when to pronounce the aunkar at the end of the word when the haha is present,for example ਰਾਹੁ .

Bhai Sahib Joginder Singh Jee has given a key to pronounce the Lagu matra (end letter Sihaari and end letter Aunkad), he said prolong a bit the maatra attached to letter before the Lagumatra letter. For example in the case of ਰਾਹੁ if we prolong a bit the maatra of kanna between rara and haha the Aunkad will be pronounced easily and it’s Ucharan will never turn into Horra likeਰਾਹੋ .

Although daas is in favor (although difficult by myself) of pronouncing Lagumatras but only subtle not Deerag like some new Paathis are trying to do. Pronouncing Aunkand as Horra and Sihari as Laam is equally as bad as pronouncing Dulaama as Laam and most of us know the popular Saakhi of Guru Gobind Singh jee about ਕੈ and ਕੇ recitation by a Sikh. So new paathi should avoid calling ਆਦਿ as ਆਦੇ, ਜੁਗਾਦਿ as ਜੁਗਾਦੇ, ਸਚੁ as ਸਚੋ and ਰਾਹੁ as ਰਾਹੋ . I think unknowingly they are committing same mistake as of ਕੈ and ਕੇ Saakhi.

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For example naam can be spelled in various ways, how would bhai gurdas jee know that he should write the muma with a sihari, or aunkand, or just as a mukta?

Piyare Jio, Bhai Sahib Bhai Gurdaas Jee was undisputed Pooran Brahamgyani. Do we think Guru Sahib would have given this important job to any normal Sikh like you and me to Scribe Baani which is coming from SachKhand. Bhai Sahib Bhai Gurdaas jee was well versed in Gurbani Viakaran he knew before hand what Guru Sahib is reciting in context of present past and future. For example take ਆਦਿ ਸਚੁ ਜੁਗਾਦਿ ਸਚੁ, in this beginning sentence Lagu matras played important role. Because of Sihaari at letter dadda it means ਆਦ ਤੋਂ, Aukand under chhacha makes only one that is existing i.e Ik Oankaar similarly the meaning of ਜੁਗਾਦਿ is ਜੁਗਾਂ ਤੋਂ. See the beauty of Gurbani Viakaran.

I think people who are against Gurbani Viakaran they use this Bhai Gurdaas Jee writing argument but at the same time they forget that Bhai Sahib Bhai Gurdaas was Pooran Brahamgyani he was one with Guru Sahib not Adoora ਅਧੂਰਾ Brahamgyani like today’s so called this and that Bramgyani Jee. I hope you will look the UCharans of lagumatras from angle of Gurbani Viakaran that even if those are not pronounced in certain cases yet it would not change the meanings because the context of tuk would not let that happen.

Bhul Chuk di khima Jio.

With Regards,
Daas

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji ki Fateh

Bhai Kulbir Singh Jio, difficult to beat your ਦਲੀਲ ਜੀਉ. Guru Sahib ਹੋਰ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਕਰਨ ਜੀ।

With Regards,
Daas

How do we explain the existence of Double Matara to some letters? Please?

I would just like to add a few things, most has been covered by Bhai Sahibs Kulbir and Jasjit Singh Jee above.

1. The 5 of mukhta, bindi, aunkad, tippi and sihari all have very small and short sound, whereas the other laga have big and long sounds. So like Bhai Sahib said above it's important if one is going to pronounce the ones at the end of words they do not get changed into hora or laa.

2. The Singhs have told me, that the siharis and aunkads that occur on the last letter of a word are to help identify the word break (separation) whilst doing LaRevaar Gurbani Paath and not necessarily always for pronunciation.

3. Some premis of Gurbani say one should always do Paath as written, but as made clear in the above posts, no one actually does. I have never heard anyone pronounce ਮਸਕਿਤ (as in jini naam dhiayaaa) as it is written, rather everyone says ਮੱਸਕਿਤ same goes with ਮਹਲਾ, ach-raj, ami-toj, a-ganat, ku-sat, ka-lat, aa-vatan, a-lakh. So if everyone is adding adhiks how can anyone say it is not appropriate to add bindis and tippis too?

4. No matter how much Santhiya one has we are all going to still make mistakes, which is why after we finish doing Paath we always beg for forgiveness from Guru Jee, and I personally believe they will always forgive our unintentional mistakes while doing Paath as there is no malicious intent to pronounce Gurbani incorrently. Unfortunately we don't know for sure how Guru Jee pronounced the Paath as there are no recordings, but for someone to say that we are correct others are wrong is just not acceptable. Baba Jaswant Singh Jee "Bhagat Jee" pronounces all aunkads and siharis at end of words (even they add the adhiks), but I know other elderly Gurmukhs who had Santhiya personally also from Sant Gurbachan Singh Jee who only pronounce the siharis and aunkad at the end of a word when the last letter is a haha. So if they have both learnt from the same person, how can there be this difference?

I do apologise for all mistakes, ask for forgiveness, and hope the Gursikhs can correct them. Someone like me cannot even pretend to be knowledgeable on anything, nevermind Gurbani. I have just written what the Singhs have told.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ke Fateh

I am confusion about the pronunciation of aukand/sihari at the end.

Bhai Kulbir Singh Jee, you had mentioned somewhere that aukand/sihari should be pronounced at the end when that word is a verb
(For example ਜਾਹਿ, ਕਹੁ) and it is not pronounced in case of nouns/pronounce (for example ਸਾਹਿ, ਰਾਹੁ).

Could you please explain why is this the case that aukand/sihari at the end are pronounced for verbs but not nouns/pronouns?
I apologize for my meager understanding but shouldn't we either never pronounce them or always pronounce them?

Also, usually I have seen that this difference is mostly audible in case of aukand/sihari with Haha (ਹ) at the end.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

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I am confusion about the pronunciation of aukand/sihari at the end.
Bhai Kulbir Singh Jee, you had mentioned somewhere that aukand/sihari should be pronounced at the end when that word is a verb
(For example ਜਾਹਿ, ਕਹੁ) and it is not pronounced in case of nouns/pronounce (for example ਸਾਹਿ, ਰਾਹੁ).
Could you please explain why is this the case that aukand/sihari at the end are pronounced for verbs but not nouns/pronouns?
I apologize for my meager understanding but shouldn't we either never pronounce them or always pronounce them?
Also, usually I have seen that this difference is mostly audible in case of aukand/sihari with Haha (ਹ) at the end.

Gurbani is Agam Agaadh Bodh. There are many schools of Gurbani Uchaaran but no one can claim to know the truth. Guru Sahib alone knows the ultimate truth. Based on the lowly understanding of this Daas, with respect to Aunkad at the end of a verb, it's there as part of the word and not for a Viyakaran reason. Karho, Aavho, Jaaho etc. are all verbs where the Aunkad is there for pronunciation but in case of nouns e.g. ਰਾਹੁ, the aunkad is there to denote the fact that this word is a Singular Noun. As an example, the default is that if we are to write the name of Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee in Gurmukhi, it has to be written with an Aunkad in the end. The Aunkad would get removed for one of the half a dozen Grammatical reasons. Now the name of Guru Sahib is "Nanak" (i.e. its pronounced as Nanak) but when writing it, you have to write with an Aunkad in the end. This proves that the Aunkad is there not for pronunciation but this is how it's written following Gurbani Viyakaran. We have words in English, where alphabets are silent e.g. k is silent in knife. Same way, the Aunkads and Sihaaris at the end of nouns are silent.

Having said that, this Daas believes that it's not a bad idea to pronounce the Sihaaris and Aunkads of Haaha ending nouns too, but care must be taken to ensure that the Aunkad should not become a Hora and Sihaari should not become a Laam, otherwise as stated by Bhai Jasjit Singh in an earlier post, it would amount to very Ashudh Paath. People who do paath as Aaday Sacho, Jugaaday Sacho, are misled and are misleading others as well. Guru Sahib Sumatt Bakshan.

There is no point in debating this. The main thing is to devour Gurbani and understand the meanings. We need to reside Gurbani in our minds. The mainstream Jatha Uchaaran is pretty good and getting into too much technicalities takes away the focus from getting Anand and Vismaad from Gurbani. One just keeps finding faults in other peoples' Uchaaran, thereby, losing focus from Taking Anand.

Daas,
Kulbir Singh

That is very beautiful and informative, by Veer kulbir Singh Ji. But,

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People who do paath as Aaday Sacho, Jugaaday Sacho, are misled and are misleading others as well. Guru Sahib Sumatt Bakshan.

This seems too harsh to say. If they try it and do it successfully and also without losing the ANAND, of theirselves or of the listeners; then it must be welcome, as Veer Ji says as below.

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If someone wants to pronounce these Laghu-Maatra, they should be very subtle and care should be taken that an Aunkad does not become a Hora and a Sihaari does not become a Laam.

Gursewak Singh Veer Ji has given a very humble and valid point

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when Sri Guru Arjun Dev Sahib Jee would recite Gurbani and Bhai Gurdas Jee would wirte it, wouldn't guru sahib have to recite the gurbani with all the laga mantar?

For Guru that was possiblle, so we can assume, Guru Ji did it. Veer Kulbir Singh Ji, as u say Gurbani was there in written form with Bhai Sahib Gurdass Ji to rewrite it; what do we say about Gurbani of Guru Arjan Dev Sahib Ji? Even if it was in written form too, as you say, Guru Sahib might be reading it for Bhai Gurdass Ji.

Regarding writting of "IN ONKAAR", what I feel, that it was a one time explanation and also the beginning. The point in discussion is very much different.

We know about that Sakhi, when Guru Sahib says that "those Bindis and Tippies , not being pronounced at some places, will get pronounced by the tongues of the sikhs, of their own." Bhai Sahib Gurdass Ji is said to have thrown a question to Guru Sahib regarding that. So that Sakhi further proves that Guru Sahib was saying Gurbani, while Bhai Sahib Ji was writting it.

Please consider my requests.

Also please let me help recall, what Talwara Ji and others say, about origin of Double Lagan Matra.

Waheguru Jee Ka Khalsa Waheguru Jee Kee Fateh!
Sadh Sangat Jee

Please try to understand my prem benti which will beniefit everyone and will make thier jeevan much stronger

First of all There is no need to start an arguement or debate over this topic

Please try to understand my point of view, from what i have learnt from having sangat of gursikh such as Bhagat Jaswant Singh Jee'khalsa'. This gursikh had the muhan seva to RECORD ALL of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee's Katha,Sri Dasam Granth, Bhai Gurdaas Jee Vaaran and Kabit and Sooraj Parkash that was done by Sant Baba Gurbachan Singh Jee 'khalsa'. Also they were part of the 5 singhs that Vadey Mahapurkh sent to resolve the issue over the manglacharan. And At the present moment they are trying to finish the seva that Sant Baba Gurbachan Singh Jee has told them to do which is to write the steek of Sri Guru Granth Sahib. So the khalsa panth can have the recording of the Katha of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee and can also have it in the written form.

Daas this summer has been staying with Bhagat Jaswant Singh Jee during my summer break to learn santhya. The way that he teaches santhya is that he makes his studens recite all the laga matar. The benifits of reciting all the laga matar in gurbani are numerous. One being that by reading all the laga matar, which means all the sihari's,aunkads, and adding in the bindi's, audaks in the appropriate places, your mind will concentrate with full attention in the gurbani, and if you know the arths to the gurbani that you are reciting there will be more raas(anand) becuase your mind is in full concentration, since you are making sure that you are reciting all the laga matar and also because you are concentrating your mind in the arths of the gurbani.

In addition, Sant Baba Gurbachan Singh Jee in the jatha used to tell the singhs that gurbani and the arths to gurbani should reside within. For example, if we have gurbani written on a whiteboard and arths written to the gurbani, we can physically see the gurbani written on the board, but when we close our eyes we cannot see that gurbani and the arths written on the whiteboard, all we see is darkness when we close our eyes. So the purpose of Sant Jee for saying this is when you close your eyes, you should bee able to see the gurbani and the arths of gurbani within when your eyes are close(gurbani nalay arth under dissan). Furthermore, there is an amolak bachan that sant jee said which is muharni pajan hai(muharni is mediatation).

So my point being by reciting all the laga matar of gurbani, the gurbani will reside in ones heart, and you will be able to see the gurbani. For example, gursikhs that dont read gurbani with laga matars they cannot see the gurbani within. Why because they dont know what gurbani looks like when they close theiir eyes. If you dont beleive me try testing yourself, write any pankti from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee by heart and when you will be writing you will have doubts to as to where to put the aunkand and sihari to certain shabads. Try writing mool mantar sahib by heart and i bet that most gursikhs on the this forum will have trouble writing it because they will be doubting themselves as to whether to put a sihari or an aunkad to a certain shabad. Take satnam from mool mantar sahib some sikhs might know that there is a sihari on the thata and an aunkad on the muma and some might not know.( i noe i sound harsh when i say this but in way what i am saying is true (please forgive me))
By reciting all the laga matars and having abyass of muharni, you will be able to see gurbani within. Which means you will be able to see the actuall form of gurbani with all the sihari's and aunkands.

In additon, i noe for a fact there are many abyassi of sukhmani sahib on this forum and there is alot of gursikhs on this forum that can recite gurbani by heart. For instance when we are walking around on the street or in our house and we are reciting gurbani, we listen to the gurbani with our ears and we do the veechar of the arths to the gurbani, but have we ever thought about seeing gurbani flash infront of eyes while we are walking around with our eyes open? Just think about this concept, your walking around with your eyes open and you can see gurbani infront of you, and when you see it you can see all the laga matars on the shabad. By doing this your having darshan of your guru sahib, because maraj ji says bani guru, guru hai bani. This method or avastha will certainly give a person peace and anand.

HAS ANYBODY EVER THOUGHT ABOUT RECITING THEIR NITNEM FROM MEMORY AND CLOSING THIER EYES AND TRYING TO SEE GURBANI AS IT IS IN WRITTEN FORM IN THE GUTKA SAHIB IN FRONT OF THIER EYES?

But this can only happen if we recite gurbani withl all the laga matars because by reciting all the laga matar and doing abyaas of muharni, it makes it much easier to see the gurbani in front of eyes when we have them closed or even when we have them opened.

In addition Kulbir Singh you might remember Gurkeerat Singh(the singh that always listening to gurbani on his headphones) from Singhs Camp. He told me that from learning santhya from Bhagat Jaswant Singh Jee and by reciting all the laga matar in gurbani, he started to see gurbani flash infront of his eyes when he goes to sleep in his dreams!

These are just some of benifits of reciting gurbani wid all the laga matars
In addition, there is also the famous sakhi of the 6th Guru Sahib and Bhai Gopala Jee

Gursikhs that do recite gurbani with all the laga matar, there is nothing wrong with it, and there is no disrespect happening to gurbani. Furthermore, there is also another laha(profit) when a gursikh recites gurbani with all the laga matar at an akhand paat the listener will also be able to see gurbani within and will be able to concentrate there mind on guru sahib.

Also, to see gurbani appear infront of your eyes is another method into controlling your mind from wandering.

In conlusion, when a gursikh does recite gurbani with all the laga matar they must be very careful when reciting the aukands and not making it into an hora or a sihari into a laa. For this reason, i would suggest any gursikh that wants to read gurbani with the laga matars to first do Bal Updesh at least 5 times with the recordings! please visit


The rest only Guru Sahib Knows

Your Das
Gursevak

Veer Gursevak Singh jeeo, as stated before, we have no qualms over ones who want to pronoune Laghu-Laga-Maatra. It's good that you are in love with Gurbani. Stay in Chardi Kala.

Daas,
Kulbir Singh