Does AKJ use a 3 foot kirpan during Amrit Sanchars?

was wondering if the AKJ use a 3 foot kirpan while doing amrit sanchars

anyone thats gone to a amrit sanchar organized by the jatha
or anyone that organizes one

basically the singh that is reading the bani holds a 3 foot kirpan

The Pyara who recites Baani, holds Khanda with one hand, and places the other hand on the Baata. The practice of holding the big Siri Sahib along with the Khanda is not done in AKJ administered Amrit Sinchaars. Having said that, all Punj Pyare do have the big Kirpaans (and the small ones) in their Gaatras.

Kulbir Singh

teek ya jee

Chotay Veer gsingh jeeo,

There is one Maryada that seems to be preserved in only in few Amrit Sinchaars today. There is a Hukam of Siri Guru Gobind Singh jee to Kabul's sangat in which Siri Guru jee said, "ਤੁਸਾਂ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਪੰਜਾਂ ਤੋ ਲਹਣਾ" (You must take Amrit from the Punj).

The maryada is to give Amrit 5 times in the mouth, 5 times in eyes and 5 times in the hair. The reason why it is given 5 times is because each of the 5 Pyare should give it in the mouth, eyes and the hair. Many times, just 1 of the Punj Pyara gives Amrit 15 times (5 times each in mouth, eyes and hair).

The Amrit is surely prepared by Punj in all Amrit Sinchaars but administered by only 1 of the Punj Pyara in many Amrit Sinchaars.

I think this tradition of administering Amrit by all of the 5 Pyare should be brought back by all Panthik organizations.

Rest Bhai, Guru Sahib knows.

Kulbir Singn

singh jee dont wanna be controversial but doesnt that hukamnama also say mention only kes not keski?
because of this iv heard some singhs say that the hukamnama's not "legit"

i think it depends on how you interpret larivaar

bhai desa singh jis rehitnama is

kachkarakirpankangakeskeepanjkakaareerehitjodhaareysikhsoee

which can be broken down as

kach kara kirpan kanga kes kee,
panj kakaaree rehit jo dhaarey sikh soee

or

kach kara kirpan kanga keskee,
panj kakaaree rehit jo dhaarey sikh soee

kachkarakirpankangakeskeepanjkakaareerehitjodhaareysikhsoee

The implications with respect to this pankiti quoted above, are very high. Of particular importance is the last part of this pankiti: "sikh soee". Only such person is Sikh that adopts this 5 Kakaari Sikh. Here in this world we can call ourselves whatever we want but what matters is how we are recognized in the Darbar of Guru Sahib.

Now let's look at a scenario. If we adopt the 5 Kakaari Rehit that includes Kesh but in reality Guru Sahib considers Keski to be Kakaar, then that person would be lacking in Rehit and as such the Fatwa of not being "Sikh soee" would be applicable on that person.

On the other hand, if a person adopts the 5 Kakaari Rehit that includes Keski, and infact Kesh were the Kakaar, it would make no difference because, Kesh are already kept because there is a strong prohibtion of cutting hair in 4 Bajjar Kurehits. The Gurmukhs who follow the Keski rehit also follow the Kesh rehit but all Gurmukhs who follow the Kesh rehit don't follow the Keski Rehit.

One thing is for sure as per this Pankiti - Sikh is such person that adopts the 5 Kakaari Rehit.

This Daas has no intention of imposing on others that Keski is a Kakaar. This is what my intention is:

In the light of the above stated Vichaar, this Daas humbly requests my brothers and sisters who consider Kesh to be Kakaar, to also adopt the Keski Rehit and never part from Keski as they don't part from other Kakaars. This way they are protected in case Keski is the Kakaar. The Hukam is very Karaara (strict). Only such person is a Sikh who adopts the 5 Kakaari Rehit. Ignorance is not an excuse in violation of a rule.

Daas,
Kulbir Singh

Quote

kach kara kirpan kanga keskee,
panj kakaaree rehit jo dhaarey sikh soee

i have heard this too, but cannot find it in my copy of bhai desa singh ji rehetnama. do you know what line/paragraph it's on?

as far as i know, the puratan rehetnamae do not mention panj kakkars as we know them. they mostly mention karad (kirpaan), kachhera, and kes/keskee... or they use some other names that do not begin with "k".

so i would love to know where this line is located.

kach kara kirpan kanga keskee,
panj kakaaree rehit jo dhaarey sikh soee

I remember reading this in Bhai Chaupa Singh Jis rehatnamey I will try to find it.

i think it can be found on the Sikhi to the Max website, will look for more concrete sources and let you know

Bhai Sahib, although your views about the severity of the consequences of the line are well taken I don't personally think that the line of reasoning that is "it is safer to do X, so we should" is correct - I think this way the person always does things out of fear and not out of love and does things w/o real faith and sharda, I know this was not your intent but that line of reasoning is very similar to Pascal's wager

Sorry I must've gotten my rehatnamey mixed up - explains why I couldn't find it in Bhai Desa Singh Ji's rehatnama either which is linked below

[www.vidhia.com]

bhai sahib and other sangat on this forum
just for the record
daas although doesnt take keski to be a kakkar does follow the keski rehit

Chotay Veer gsingh, you are a Sughadh Sujaan Singh. May Guru Sahib bless us all with Bibek Budh.


Kulbir Singh

Quote

daas although doesnt take keski to be a kakkar does follow the keski rehit.

Great! keep it up.

With Regards,
Daas

Tarun Singh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> i think it can be found on the Sikhi to the Max
> website, will look for more concrete sources and
> let you know
>
> Bhai Sahib, although your views about the severity
> of the consequences of the line are well taken I
> don't personally think that the line of reasoning
> that is "it is safer to do X, so we should" is
> correct - I think this way the person always does
> things out of fear and not out of love and does
> things w/o real faith and sharda, I know this was
> not your intent but that line of reasoning is very
> similar to Pascal's wager

Veer Ji I think Bhai Sahib is saying its better to be safe then sorry.

There is a puratan rehatnama that says one who eats without covering their head with a dastar is going to hell. One can easily argue that this teaches a person to do things out of faith instead of love. But I would have to disagree.
I think in our beginning stages when we first start practicing Sikhi fear is the best option in following Gurmat. Eventually this divine fear turns into divine love. If someone has not accepted Dastar as mandatory we can categorize them in the beginning stage it will be difficult for one to experience Divine love untill they have Divine fear for Guru Jis commands. In Sikhi, Love and Fear are compatible in regards to following Guru Jis hukum.

I remember when I first took Amrit the idea of only eating from RehatDhari Sikhs bothered me because I didnt understand what Bibek was. But still out of fear of not obeying Guru Ji I followed the orders. After some time I started loving this command I really cant picture my life without it. In all the beginning stages of practicing spirituality we must start with fear
whether it be nitnem, amrit vela, naam abhyiaas. Eventually with Guru Jis kirpa this fear will turn into love.

Its like our parents telling us not do something at a young age. Out of fear we respect their advice even if we dont understand it. Eventually we begin to love this advice because we understand how much it has helped our lives.

In the second sentence i meant to say "One can easily argue that this teaches a person to do things out of fear instead of love. But I would have to disagree"

Lol another typo when responding to you. Veer JI you must really make me feel nervous/fearful.

sorry bhai sahib dont know what this means
"Sughadh Sujaan Singh"

The argument i was making was that this type of reasoning (i.e. similar to Pascal's wager) is dangerous. Here's an example:

Say i find a hukamnama whose authenticity is probably fake and its says people who eat mangos are condemned to hell, now no one knows for sure that this is really authentic or not, only Guru Sahib knows, but if there's a non-zero chance that i'll be condemned to hell (which has negative infinite utility) then i should not eat strawberries. The problem is that when you start talking about "could" or "may" (essentially anything with non-zero chances) you can justify anything. One practical example can be bhang - i'm sure you can find at least one source that says non-bhang consumers are not Sikhs.

So my argument wasn't pro or anti-keski (personally my Panj Pyare said it is not a kakkar but it is preferable for all) but I was just pointing out that we should be careful in the reasoning we use to justify matters.

Bhul Chuk Maaf Karni,

Tarun Singh

Quote

sorry bhai sahib dont know what this means
"Sughadh Sujaan Singh"

It means Siyaana.

Kulbir Singh

Veer Tarun Singh jeeo,

I have no idea what Pascal's law or theory is. This Daas was just trying to say that whether we accept Keski as Kakaar or not, either way we should adopt the Keski Rehit. Accepting Kesh as Kakaar but not keeping the Keski Rehit is perilous. That's all I meant.

Not keeping Keski Rehit (whether you accept it as Kakaar or not) is a major Dhil. Half of Panth (Bibiyaan) is without Dastaar. This is because the Rehit of Keski has been given up. A person not wearing a Dastaar cannot be classified as a Tyaar Bar Tyaar Khalsa.

Guru Sahib Bhali Karan.

Kulbir Singh

Kulbir Singh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Not keeping Keski Rehit (whether you accept it as
> Kakaar or not) is a major Dhil. Half of Panth
> (Bibiyaan) is without Dastaar. This is because the
> Rehit of Keski has been given up.

And this is one of the reason the panth is not getting Guru sahib's khushiaan as we ourselves have discarded the rehat. No surprise panth is involved in legal battles in so many places for recognition of Turban. Had the singhnees been wearing this imagine the visibility of the Khalsa would have increased manifold.

Guru Piyario,

Waheguru ji ka Khalsa, Waheguru ji ki Fateh

The riddle of Kes or Keski from the following “kachkarakirpankangakeskeepanjkakaareerehitjodhaareysikhsoee”
Can be solved easily. How? One word is missing; the original text goes like this:

“kachkarakirpankangakeskeeEahpanjkakaareerehitjodhaareysikhsoee”
ਕਛ ਕੜਾ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਨ ਕੰਘਾ ਕੇਸਕੀ, ਇਹ ਪੰਜ ਕਕਾਰੀ ਰਹਿਤ ਧਾਰੇ ਸਿੱਖ ਸੋਈ।
The word ‘Eah’ is there so no one can do padd shed as ‘Kes’, ‘Ki’ because the word ‘Eah’ would not let it happen.

Regardless of above tuk for Kes/keski matter there are numerous Rehatnamas which clearly states Sikh should wear Dastaar all the time. On top of this Guru Sahib himself say in Sri Guru Granth Sahib jee “Saabat Soorat Dastaar Sira”. What else instruction or hukam needed by a Sikh to wear Dastaar. Now it is how someone interprets the word Sikh. For Daas no matter what Sikh means both male and female. Guru Sahib never calls male as a Sikh and Female as Sikhni or something else. For instance, even if some one tries to interpret ‘Sikh’ means males then I wonder how they will interpret this supreme Rehat given in sri Guru Granth Sahib jee that:
“Gur SatGur ka Jo Sikh Akhaiy, So Bhalkay Uthh har Naam Diavai”
ਗੁਰ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕਾ ਜੋ ਸਿਖੁ ਅਖਾਏ ਸੁ ਭਲਕੇ ਉਠਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਧਿਆਵੈ ॥ (Panna 305)
Now can some one say that Naam Japna Rehat is only for males not for females?

With Regards,
Daas

I am not disputing that dastar should be worn, was just saying that we need to use better reasoning, I'm sorry if I have offended anyone as that was not my intention