How does one know that Bani/path is working...any signs

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ਅਸੀਂ ਇਹ ਗੱਲ ਕਹਿਣ ਤੋਂ ਰੰਚਿਕ ਵੀ ਨਹੀਂ ਝਿਝਕਦੇ ਕਿ ਕੇਵਲ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਵਿਚ ਹੀ ਸੱਚਾ ਉਧਾਰ ਮੁਮਕਿਨ ਹੈ ਅਤੇ ਕੋਈ ਵੀ ਹੋਰ ਧਰਮ, ਭਾਂਵੇਂ ਉਸ ਧਰਮ ਦੇ ਸ਼ਰਧਾਲੂ ਕਿੰਨੇ ਵੀ ਵਧੀਆ ਹੋਣ, ਉਸ ਧਰਮ ਰਾਹੀਂ ਮੁਕਤ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੋ ਸਕਦੇ ਜਦੋਂ ਤੱਕ ਉਹ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਦੇ ਧਾਰਣੀ ਨਹੀਂ ਬਣਦੇ।

100% agree with Bhai Sahib Jee Sikhi Sab toh uchha dharam hai jis ch koi shak nae hai.Baki sab v apni jagah theek haan but is jug ch Satguru nu pooj kei aur Naam jaap kei Nistara hona hai isdi example den di lod naehai tuc sare janu he ho istoh.Maaf karna but Moortian Ya Kabraan poojan naal kuj v nae mil sakda.Aur isda un logaan nu gyaan he nae hai teh oh iss ch lage hoe haan.Aur jis jis nu eh gal samajh andi jaegi oh Satguru agge apna sees paet karega Amrit Di Daat lei ga taiyo usda paar utara hoega nae taan mushkil hai.Tuc sare Kulbir Singh veer jee di post da galat Matlab kadya hai jee.

Bhul chuk maafi jee

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Kulbir Singh
When "Allah" or even "Gopal", "Gobind" (names of Siri Krishna) are used in Gurbani, they are mostly used for Vaheguru but the "Allah" whose messenger was Prophet Muhammad is not Vaheguru to whom Sikhs worship but a deity similar to Shiva, Brahma etc.

Having studied/read about Islam extensively, Islam can be said as a Kalyugi deen. Regarding your point on Allah. Muslims do believe He is formless creator of Universe but not omnipresent in the creation (as in Gurmat). He watches all & everthing. He creates, sustains & destroys.
They may believe in Allah but their (alleged) intermediary on understanding of Allah is Muhammad. Hence, nothing but imperfection.
In Gurmat, our intermediary for understanding Vahiguroo is Satguroo. Who is puran(perfect).
Your mention of Allah of Koran being a deity creation of Vahiguro is something new, unheard of even. Idolatry of Allah in any form or descriptive definition is shirk even. Hence, ‘formless Allah’.
Everything in creation is in 1 form or another, vishnu/brahma,shiv included. Only Vahiguroo is formless.
How and why did Vahiguroo create this Allah who is also formless and put Him in charge of Middle East? who is alleged to have been creator of universe even, according to Koran.

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Kulbir Singh
In order to understand the difference between Allah the Vaheguru and Allah of Quran, all you need to do is study Quran, Bible or Torah etc. and you will realize that they are different. Vaheguru is above all and only sanctioned Gurmat Dharam, and no other Dharma. Brahma, Mahesh (Shiv jee), Vishnu, Allah etc. too have started religions in their own capacity.

Reading Koran itself, one realizes the stench of houmei, karam kaand,stories of prophets, waging war on kafiroon/kuffars & 'imperfect' Allah who gets pissed off etc.
Koran advocates believing in Allah and Itaqullah(fearing Him)...whereas Gurmat advocates unconditional faith, love & obedience to Vahiguroo through Gurmat Naam. In nutshell

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Kulbir Singh
Allah the Vaheguru had no messenger by the name of Abraham, Muhammad or Jesus, nor he took the avtaar of Siri Krishna, Siri Rama etc. The Allah of Quran is different from the Vaheguru praised in Gurbani.

And yes, I personally dont think Muhammad was a messenger who was in touch with Allah(of Gurbani) or even the one in Koran(alledged). Because someone in that capacity committing genocide (e.g Bani Qurayza,war captives) & keeping concubines doesn't make sense (Yes, Muhammad did keep enslaved women as concubines). A verse in Koran in Surah Al Nisa allows this also.

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Kulbir Singh
If you believe that Allah of Quran and Vaheguru are the same Deity, and that Vaheguru/Allah sent Prophet Muhammad as His messenger, then as a Sikh you would have to believe that the Prophet lied about everything and that Quran was a product of his imagination which is not the case. Quran was inspired by Allah (not Vaheguru) and Muhammad indeed received messages from Allah.

Many believe in God but the understanding differ and is imperfect without SatGuroo, will remain so till they come into sharan of Satguroo. Regardless, Gurmat has made it clear to us:
ਪਾਂਇ ਗਹੇ ਜਬ ਤੇ ਤੁਮਰੇ ਤਬ ਤੇ ਕੋਊ ਆਂਖ ਤਰੇ ਨਹੀ ਆਨਯੋ ॥ <----Masha'Allah!
ਰਾਮ ਰਹੀਮ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਕੁਰਾਨ ,ਅਨੇਕ ਕਹੈਂ, ਮਤ ਏਕ ਨ ਮਾਨਯੋ ॥
(Sree Dasam Guru, Granth Sahib)

I remember hearing Taksalis discussing a katha by Gyani Gurbachan Singh Bhindrawale saying Muhammed killed a pious man and took his poetry work and started spreading his deen. I personally find this logic to be a very weak one. Neither can it substantiated with anything we know about Islam from available sources.

The current mashaf of Koran was to be only compiled into existance only at the time of Uthman ibn Affan with the consesus of S. Sahih Bukhari & Muslim (Hadiths) were to only be compiled 200 years later.
This religion's practises are partly due to precendents set by Muhammad's actions(Sunnah) and the hate rhetoric of its Shuyookh(scholars) devoid of Naam & Bibek is the reason why mentality various Muslims factions is the way it is.

The fault maybe lies in Muhammed the alledged "Rasulullah". All that can be said about Koran is, understanding and description of Allah is flawed, flawed, flawed…

Chota veer

Pyasi Chatrik jeeo,

It is possible for Muhammad to describe Allah of Quran as formless but for Allah's form to be one that is made up of stuff in Gyan Khand. The bodies in Gyan Khand are different than 5 qualities that make up bodies here in Karambhoomi.

If Vaheguru can create Brahma, Shiv, and Vishnu to work under Maya and act in this world, then why is it so far of a stretch to think that Allah of Quran is also same as that?

I think since we hear monotheistic we start to think that they are the same as Vaheguru, but this is not the case. No one says that Brahma is Vaheguru, so why would Allah be considered as Vaheguru?

Another thing to note is that Vaheguru is his Guns. Meaning that if someone describes a Hateful, Spiteful, Jealous power, then that becomes a totally different person. I think we are all in agreement that Quran does not mention Vaheguru, and that all its mentions is an idea of a entity which controls this world and universe and is going to answer their prayers. This shouldn't be interpreted as a limited understanding of Vaheguru, but should be seen as it is; a description of a limited power entity.

Preetam Singh

ਕੁਲਬੀਰ ਸਿੰਘ ਜੀ ਮੈਂ ਬਿਲਕੁਲ ਸਹਿਮਤ ਹਨ ਕਿ ਪੂਰਾ ਉਧਾਰ ਗੁਰੂ ਘਰ ਵਿਚ ਹੀ ਪ੍ਰਾਪਤ ਹੁੰਦਾ ਹੈ . ਮੇਰੀ ਇਸ ਗੱਲ ਨਾਲ ਸਹਿਮਤੀ ਹੀ ਨਹੀਂ ਬਲਕਿ ਇਹੀ ਮੇਰਾ ਵਿਸ਼ਵਾਸ ਭੀ ਹੈ.

ਬਸ ਮੈਨੂੰ ਇਹ ਠੀਕ ਨਹੀਂ ਲਗਦਾ ਕੀ ਦੂਜਿਆਂ ਸੰਤਾਂ ਭਗਤਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਪੂਰਾ ਬਣਦਾ ਸਤਿਕਾਰ ਤੇ ਇਜ਼ਤ ਨਾ ਦਿੱਤੀ ਜਾਵੇ ਕਿਉਂਕਿ ਸਾਫ਼ ਅਤੇ ਸਿਧੀ ਗੱਲ ਹੈ ਕੀ ਜੇ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਦੇ ਉਹ ਪਿਆਰੇ ਸੀ ਤਾਂ ਹੀ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਤੇ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਹੋਈ ਤੇ ਤਾਹੀਂ ਤਾ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦੀਆਂ ਸਿਫਤਾਂ ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਵਿਚ ਹਨ . ਸਾਡਾ ਵੀ ਇਹ ਫਰਜ਼ ਬਣਦਾ ਹੈ ਕੀ ਅਸੀਂ ਸਭ ਦੀ ਵਡਿਆਈ ਕਰੀਏ . ਹਾਂ ਆਪਣਾ ਧਰਮ ਸ੍ਰਵਸ੍ਰੇਸਟ ਹੈ ਇਹ ਵਿਸ਼ਵਾਸ ਰੱਖਨ ਵਿਚ ਕੁਝ ਵੀ ਗਲਤ ਨਹੀਂ.

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਉਸ ਹਰ ਇੱਕ ਜੀਵ ਤੇ ਆਪਣੀ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ ਜੋ ਉਸ ਨੂੰ ਪ੍ਰਾਪਤ ਕਰਣ ਦੇ ਸੱਚੇ ਦਿਲੋਂ ਜਤਨ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ . ਤੇ ਜੋ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਦਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਬਣਦਾ ਹੈ ਉਹ ਸਾਡਾ ਵੀ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਹੋਣਾ ਚਾਹੀਦਾ ਹੈ. ਮੈਨੂੰ ਇਹ ਲਗਦਾ ਹੈ ਕੀ ਇਸਲਾਮ ਆਦਿਕ ਧਰਮ ਊਣੇ ਤਾਂ ਹਨ ਪਰ ਅਵੈਧ ਨਹੀਂ . ਇਹਨਾਂ ਉੱਤੇ ਚੱਲ ਕੇ ਤੇ ਸੱਚੇ ਦਿਲੋਂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਦੀ ਭਗਤੀ ਕਰਨ ਨਾਲ ਵੀ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਖੁਸ਼ ਹੁੰਦਾ ਹੈ , ਚਾਹੇ ਬਾਦ ਵਿਚ ਪੂਰਨ ਉਧਾਰ ਵਾਸਤੇ ਗੁਰੂ ਘਰ ਵਿਚ ਹੀ ਜਨਮ ਲੈਣਾ ਪਵੇ

ਜੋ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਦਾ ਧਿਆਨ ਧਰੂਗਾ ਉਸ ਤੇ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਖੁਸ਼ ਹੋਣਗੇ ਤੇ ਉਸਨੂੰ ਅਸੀਮ ਰੂਹਾਨੀ ਤਜਰਬੇ ਬਖਸ਼ਣਗੇ . ਤੇ ਨਾਲੇ ਫੇਰ ਉਸਨੂੰ ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਕ ਦੇ ਲੜ ਲਾ ਕੇ ਉਸਨੂੰ ਸਤਿਨਾਮ ਬਖਸ਼ ਕੇ ਉਸਦਾ ਪੂਰਨ ਉਧਾਰ ਕਰਨਗੇ. ਬਸ ਏਨੀ ਗੱਲ ਗੱਲ ਹੈ

eyesacademic jeeo,

ਮੇਰੇ ਮਨ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਤ ਉਧਰੇ ॥ ਧ੍ਰੂ ਪ੍ਰਹਿਲਾਦੁ ਬਿਦਰੁ ਦਾਸੀ ਸੁਤੁ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਮਿ ਤਰੇ ॥1॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

This Shabad is by Guru Nanak Dev Ji in Raag Malaar on Pannaa 1279 

mhlw 1 ]
mehalaa 1 ||
First Mehla:

hyko pwDru hyku dru gur pauVI inj Qwnu ]
haeko paadhhar haek dhar gur pourree nij thhaan ||
There is one path and one door. The Guru is the ladder to reach one's own place.

rUVau Twkuru nwnkw siB suK swcau nwmu ]2]
roorro t(h)aakur naanakaa sabh sukh saacho naam ||2||
Our Lord and Master is so beautiful, O Nanak; all comfort and peace are in the Name of the True Lord. ||2||

Definitely agree that Allah is another diety. Islam was born when Prophet Muhammad led people to reject the very vast range of dieties that people were worshipping in the Middle East when he came into the picture, and to turn to the god of the Abrahamic faith. It doesnt mean this particular god of theirs is our Vaheguru. Their god has krodh, as attested to in their own scriptures, whereas Vaheguru does not.

Kulbir Singh

When "Allah" or even "Gopal", "Gobind" (names of Siri Krishna) are used in Gurbani, they are mostly used for Vaheguru but the "Allah" whose messenger was Prophet Muhammad is not Vaheguru to whom Sikhs worship but a deity similar to Shiva, Brahma etc.

I am unable to apprehend the compulsion to prove that ALAH is a deity. When Gurbani is saying it otherwise, why we need to prove, what Gurbani has not said.

As sk says, Definitely agree that Allah is another diety.; I doubt if it is in accordance with Gurbani.

As Gurbani says RAM JAPO, similarly it says ALLAH KI KAR BANDAGI.

Veer Kulbir Singh Ji, please help.

Allah, Raam, Gopal etc. are attributive Names of God whereas Vaheguru is a personal name. Allah in Gurbani and Allah in Quran are not the same. In former, it refers to Gurmat concept of God whereas in latter it is a God that is separate and outside of creation. I think Allah of Quran is not a deity like Vishnu or Shiva but refers to One God in spite of giving a false description.

"As Gurbani says RAM JAPO, similarly it says ALLAH KI KAR BANDAGI."


When gurbani says to jap Ram, we know that it is not referring to the Hindu Ram, thats why similarly where Gurbani says Allah it does not also have to be referring to Muslim Allah. When I first heard the idea that Allah of Muslims is another diety, it made alot of sense to me from what I learned about the Abrahamic faiths when I was in catholic school. The behaviour of their god (or gods, since Christians worship Christ as god) is very characteristic of a diety, not our perfect Vaheguru. Plus I can't imagine Vaheguru communicating through or with the mediums who brought forth their scripture, when even for Sikhs - who have the gift of NAAM! - this is such a difficult avastha to reach. I also don't think what is writtwn in the Quran is made up. Only explanation then is that Allah was one of many dieties who were being worshipped in the Middle East, and the Prophet simply told people to reject the rest and worship only the "god of abraham" as they say. This is a historical fact; I will try to find one of my old history books from university that proves that Allah was one of many dieties before Islam. It's possible that Allah is also different from the Jewish god, although it is claimed they are the same.

Allah is the pagan name for the "moon god". ALLAH IS NOT VAHEGURU! This is why on every dome of every mosque, there is the inclusion of the crescent moon.
The link below provides a brief sypnosis on this. It is worthy of reading and understanding.

[www.billionbibles.org]

And regarding why Allah , Raam, Gopaal and other names have been used in Gurbani. Please refer to the book "ਨਾਮ ਤੇ ਨਾਮ ਦਾ ਦਾਤਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ". Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh jee has written in the first few pages of the first chapter that these names are metaphors used in Gurbani to refer to Vaheguru. They simply pertain to that fact. He has also written since Satnaam is to be kept Gupt, therefore Guru Sahib has used these terms for Vaheguru. Guru Sahib cannot openly give Naam to everybody. It's only given in Gupt roop in the form of Panj Peyaarey.
I hope that helps and answers your question.

Thank you all Veer Ji Bhein Ji. I had to see the dictionary for definition of Deity. It could be one or multiple, depending on the people who believe. "Some religions have one supreme deity, while others have multiple deities of various ranks."

So new questions come up now.

Based on the Wikipedia definition; is it incorrect to say, sikhs believe in one supreme deity, Almighty?

If Allah refers to GOD, one supreme deity, for muslims or
Allah is one of the deities, which is supreme of all other deities, for muslims
then what is wrong in saying that Allah refers to Almighty for muslims?

As Bijla Singh Ji hints at, false or inadequate descriptions (which do not and will never reach Gurbani descriptions), do not amount to prove that Allah of muslims is different than the Allah of sikhs ? People visit Harmandir Sahib and describe it in different ways; should that amount to prove that Harmandir of non sikhs is different than Harmandir of sikhs or bibeki sikhs?

I am afraid, I am wrong. Please Bhul Chuk Muaff Hove Ji. Help.

Of course anyone can do simran, but if one wants full benefits, one must have been blessed with Amrit.
Gurbani says, Gurmukh naam japahu man mere.
We have to try to be Gurmukhs in order to jap naam properly.
That means getting Amrit, and then doing our best to keep rehat.
Without these things, the person is missing out.
We won't be physically stopping anyone from doing simran.
The anand that they get from simran can serve the purpose of driving them to go get Amrit.
So it has that benefit. But really it is necessary for a Sikh to be Amritdhari.
Guru Gobind Singh Ji said, Pritham Rehat Yeh Jaan, Khande Kee Pahul Shake.
No one can say that they can get to where Sikhi promises to take us without Amrit.
What determines if someone will get to Waheguru is if they love Waheguru.
If someone Loves waheguru, then they will end up with Amrit anyways. It will not be an obstacle if they do not have Amrit because Guru Sahib will bless them in time. I don't think that those without Amrit are stuck. If they love Waheguru, then they are guaranteed to be blessed with Amrit. If someone does not believe in Amrit while loving Waheguru, then either they innocently don't know, in which case they will be taught by Waheguru, or they don't care, which leads to thinking about does that person really love Waheguru. If they did, then after knowing that Amrit is necessary, wouldn't they want to meet Waheguru fast? By taking Amrit as soon as possible?

How can we truly worship someone who has not even revealed their self to us? Only if Guru Sahib presents us with gurbani and naam can it be said that we are worshipping Vaheguru, since naam and gurbani are the roop of Vaheguru. All other scriptures are descriptions of the deities who revealed them to their prophets, but they are not the roop of Vaheguru, unlike naam and gurbani. Gurbani is not just a scripture which describes our Prabhu, it is our Prabhu's very own roop.

Regarding Allah.Before the Prophet Muhammad came on the scene, most people in the Middle East were pagans. They worshipped a whole variety of different gods. Allah was one of those many gods. People did not generally worship him though, but they did worship his three daughters. You can read this in the book "No God but God", by Reza Aslan. The Prophet brought revelations from Allah which taught people how to worship him, and to abandon all the other gods.

These revelations are not all in line with gurmat. They do teach some good things for sure, but other teachings are totally against gurmat. For instance, the unequal treatment of women and the emphasis on worldly possessions, are two things which we as Sikhs know are not in the bhaaNa of Vaheguru. Yet at the same time, we can't dismiss the Quran as just being made up. That's why I think it's reasonable to assume that Allah is real, but not Vaheguru. I could be wrong though.

Another thread gone astray - lets stick to the topic in question

How does one know that Bani/path is working...any signs ?

The basic answer is dependable on ones karms previous and current - so a very very hard question to answer.
It cannot be applied to all s per shabad pangtee " koi nah kisheee jehaa"

However the more one looks for signs the more he probaly won;'t get - as can you imagine counting money for every hour you work - no you just work and focus on the work - simirlarly we must focus 100% on Gurbani, naam abhyiaas,sewa , chagning oneself for better deeds daily.

Gursikhee kee eh nishanee -- panee chalee nivaan noo - -attitude change to where haumee word I doesn't exist - could take one lifeform or many - who knows apart from akal purkh.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji ki Fateh

sk bhein ji, I agree with u, in first para. So true. Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh Ji discuuses this subject in detail in "KI SIRI GURU GRANTH SAHIB DI POOJA BUT PRASTI HAI". He proves to english doctors in debate that GURBANI worship is exactly the worship of AKAL PURAKH himself.

Allah is one of the many gods for a community; it is new information for me. I never knew that. In Gurbani, we do not find any hint about that. All the time ALLAH word is there, it is for the GOD Himself. I think so. While Gurbani hides THE NAME WAHEGURU, IT uses the word ALLAH to talk about WAHEGURU.

Hanjee, Allah when used in gurbani does refer to Vaheguru, same way as Raam/Raama etc. However, Raam for Hindus is not Vaheguru, he is a diety. Similarly, I truly believe that the Allah that Muslims worship is also not our Vaheguru. Rest Guru Sahib knows, or maybe gursikhs on this forum.

Agreed. But I would like to say it in a different and broader way.

Waheguru is one. It is one for all. It is all powerful to create and manage every thing, all religions so called, every positivity or negativity, all isms, may be theism or atheism.

All worship HIM alone, (even though they appear atheists.) All are looking for HIM alone.

But their knowledge or concept of Waheguru is different. Outside GURMAT, generally wrong or inadeqate. Their methods of worship are inadeqate or unnecessary.

They appear to use different words/methods, but their search is for HIM alone. The ultimate search of HUMANITY.

i know only one thing

keep dhayan at gurus feet and surti in gurubani


Sathiguroo No Pushh Kai Behi Rehai Karae Nivaas


mann laage ki eh nishani
mithi laage sri gurubani

Don't know much but:

ਕੋਈ ਬੋਲੈ ਰਾਮ ਰਾਮ ਕੋਈ ਖੁਦਾਇ ॥

Ko▫ī bolai rām rām ko▫ī kẖuḏā▫e.

ਕੋਈ ਸੇਵੈ ਗੁਸਈਆ ਕੋਈ ਅਲਾਹਿ ॥੧॥

Ko▫ī sevai gus▫ī▫ā ko▫ī alāhi. ||1||

ਕਾਰਣ ਕਰਣ ਕਰੀਮ ॥

āraṇ karaṇ karīm.

ਕਿਰਪਾ ਧਾਰਿ ਰਹੀਮ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

Kirpā ḏẖār rahīm. ||1|| rahā▫o.

[www.gurmatbibek.com]