How does one know that Bani/path is working...any signs

Can anyone please share when there inner journey started.....& how they found out or confirmed.

Are there any other sites, where one can discuss Baani vichaar.

I'm also awaiting a reply to this question.

Let's say a sikh maintains amritvela and nitnem for a year, practices gurmat virtues and strives to distance from 5 vikars, keeps rehit to the best of his/her ability and does sangat for that year.

What changes and/or signs can the sikh look out for in order to understand how well he or she is doing and if on a good track. The strongest motivation is always one's own progress.

Daas can see the dynamic of this forum is advanced but beginners will appreciate if somebody can shine some light.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh.

On the path of GURMAT, how we measure our progress? May be, everyone can answer this question differently. What the GURBANI ITSELF says about that should be more apporpriate. We must look for that.

I am trying to answer that with random thoughts.

It is pure KIRPA. We try and GURU SAHIB helps us. Our efforts are itself the part of KIRPA. Bhai Gurdaas Ji says "CHARAN SHARABN GUR EK PENDA JAI CHAL SATGUR KOT PENDA AGE HOI LEIT HAI". Guru Sahib Himself multiplies the effects of our efforts. But how the efforts are generated. Those efforts are also the result of KIRPA.

When the things are becoming easy and comfortable. That should show our progress. When GURBANI is becoming more and more indispensible as part our routine; that should show our progress. When life gets hard without GURBANI, we progress.

Gurbani and SIKHI carry sweetness with them, as carbon compounds carry carbon with them. More sweetness we taste, better we feel with GURMAT.

It is a long journey. Sometimes very hard and difficult to travel on. Yet, we cherish it as a sikh.

The purpose of life is find our maker & be one with him.
1st sign is the one will focus more on baani/simran.......than vibration of shabad in one's body......God will give candies.(sings of progress)...in order to help one to move forwards......
After lot of bhagti....the vibration of naam will become automatic inside you...ajaapa jaap.......than....with more bhagti ......your dasam duar will open...10th door...abode of almighty ......& after more bhagti......& so on....journey will start....only with his grace...bhul chuk maaf

Also purpose of human life to help all fellow human being reach that goal. AAP japo aruanu by japao.......without any malice or envy.....NAAM is the ultimate goal of human life....bhul chuk maaf.

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humble
1st sign is the one will focus more on baani/simran.......than vibration of shabad in one's body......God will give candies

Candies?

:O

Preetam Singh

Well just a metaphor....it is gungey de mithiaee .....Well from personal experience......1).you body will permeate with Kuhsboo.....2)..you will be awaken in the morning even if you feel lazy...3) what you think or say will happen......4) Amrit will trickle in you body, which will satisfy your hunger, thirst, so one can do bhagti for a long time.......others kirpas.......are out of this world.......... I would like to share but I apologize...no one will believe..I would not have believed it myself in million years, if not experienced it......again....sorry. forgive me. bhul chuk maaf. Rab rakha.....Amazing things will happen to make to move forward....Guru/Satguru/God will guide you every step of the way.......but people will laugh at you, your own family won't believe you......but that wont wipe the smile from your face.....you will be ecstasy.........

Humble jee as you are explaining its really spellbound but I want to ask you a question that Are you a AMRITDHARI Sikh? I am stressing on word AMRITDHARI ? Please tell us and also tell us from where did you took Amrit Di Daat I mean to say from which place not Jathebandis all follows same procedure.I am asking this because you were claiming in your previous posts that there is no need of Amrit Di Daat from Guru Jee and Punj Pyare.I hope you don't mind telling this question.
Please answer it jeeo...

"Humble" what kind of humble person are you? you are bending over backwards to inform people that you have had mystical experiences? you ask questions so that you can tell about your experiences. this is pakhandi behaviour. and if you have not even had amrit, how did you get these experiences? it seems like you are a follower of some fishy organisation.

Well all your praise is too much for me.. I did explain my reason for my question to find like minded people & discuss with them whose inner journey has started...but it was printed & deleted...

Secondly I did take Amrit from Sant ISHER SINGH JEE Rara sahib wale....at a very early age. But right now I am sehajdhari Sikh- or sinner in your eyes. They also gave me path to do....which I forgot until 7 years ago.......

3rdly.....you guys are Guru Sikhs....so understanding & full of patience.....you have so much virtue...I am nobody...just trying to find someone to discuss & exchange experiences.


1. HIGHEST AMRIT IS NAAM.

2. SECOND HIGHEST AMRIT IS "EK BOOND AMRIT" – that resides in side you and gets activated when you reach a high ATMIK AWASTHA OF KARAM KHAND OR SACH KHAND.

3. THIRD HIGHEST IS "KHANDE BATE DA AMRIT" (Served by Panj Pyare)

In the end Atma parmatma da mail hona ha right--this body will be dust. Naam will save you in the end....also

I apologize if I sound egotistical ...maybe its too much to for me to keep inside my fallacy.......don't want to offend anyone....Please forgive me.....

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1. HIGHEST AMRIT IS NAAM. 2. SECOND HIGHEST AMRIT IS "EK BOOND AMRIT" – that resides in side you and gets activated when you reach a high ATMIK AWASTHA OF KARAM KHAND OR SACH KHAND. 3. THIRD HIGHEST IS "KHANDE BATE DA AMRIT" (Served by Panj Pyare) In the end Atma parmatma da mail hona ha right--this body will be dust. Naam will save you in the end....

Its very surprising that according to you Highest Amrit is Naam no doubt it is but your second point should be first and first point should be second no one can even taste the virtues of Naam untill he got Amrit Di Boond from Guru Maharaaj.As you know everything that what is right then why not you become a True Sikh I don't understand how one can get Darshan without getting Amrit Di Daat. Sorry but it is totally baseless.And without Amrit Di Daat you cannot have a true Raas of Naam and Bani.You are a Sehajdhari I would advice you to took Amrit Di Daat from Punj Pyare in the hazoori of Guru Maharaaj.May be according to your Past life's good Karams you are getting these mystical experiences and if you are samajhdhar then it can be a isharaa from Guru Maharaaj that to get Amrit Di Daat.You are talking about anyone's spiritual journey but what you interpreting your journey is a big Wrong.It is a serious matter I hope if I could meet you and make you understand that this is not that what you are talking about Do you know there are very little fortunate people who got such a highest and spiritual Daat of Amrit and thenafter they are eligible for Darshan.And those who truly have Darshan of Satguru don't took a Dhol and start playing it that Bravo! I have got the Darshan I have got Darshan. Gurbani says that they are engrossed in so much naam and love that they cant even speak a word from their mouth.And a very funny thing you had said that when you get Darshan you got struck and body Freezes.Haha.Why Guru maharaaj living in Antarctic region. Never mind bro I would suggest you that you should Took Amrit Di Daat from punj Pyare and then Do Naam Abhiyaas Kamaiyaan and then you realize that what you were missing in your life.
I am telling this to you by what Gurmukhs told me and what Guru Maharaj gave me Bhudhi.
Sorry if I hurt you but truth is always bitter.Without Satguru no one can get Naam and how satguru gave Naam this Process is known as Amrit Di Daat milni.
I request to Members to make this thing very clear to my Humble Veer so that he can get a right way to reach at the place he is talking.

There is no point in posting false experiences, no one is falling for it here. If you are looking to build a following then you should look elsewhere. Your experiences that you post contradict your previous experiences a lot of the time.

Also, you are not providing any Gurbani Panktis to support your claims.

When Gurmukhs like Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh jee shared their experiences it was either by writing about the experiences using Gurbani Panktis and not mentioning that it was their own experience, or in Jail Chittiyan, which was originally a set of private letters to their close associate, Gyani Nahar Singh jee.

Either you are deluded or you are lying. I hope you are just deluded and not lying, because if you are lying then you will have very harsh punishment in Dargah.

Preetam Singh

We all should follow- LIVE GURU GURU GRANTH SAHIB JEE.

GURU GRANTH SAHIB IS THE EMODIMENT OF SHABAD...LIVE GURU....ETERNAL.....CONSTANT....JO PRAB KO MIL BOCH HA KHOJ SHABAD ME LEH..............IN THE BEGINING THERE WAS WORD, WORD WAS GOD.....RAB RAKHA...BHUL CHUK MAAF....

ALL ANSWERS ARE IN GURU GRANTH SAHIB JEE.

PAAPI LIKE ME.....IS LOOKING FOR ANSWERS MYSELF....

ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਬਾਣੀ ਸਦਾ ਸਲਾਹੇ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਪਾਵਣਿਆ ॥
ਆਪਿ ਦਇਆ ਕਰਿ ਦੇਵਸੀ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਚੋਇ ॥

ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਪਾਏ ॥
ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਪੀਵੈ ਜਿਸ ਨੋ ਆਪਿ ਪੀਆਏ ॥

ਮੇਰੈ ਮਨਿ ਤਨਿ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਮੀਠ ਲਗਾਨਾ ॥

ਪਾਇਆ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਗੁਰਿ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਕੀਨੀ ਸਚਾ ਮਨਿ ਵਸਾਇਆ ॥

ਕਹੈ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਜਿਸ ਨੋ ਆਪਿ ਤੁਠਾ ਤਿਨਿ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਗੁਰ ਤੇ ਪਾਇਆ ॥੧੩॥

Ėk būnḏ gur amriṯ ḏīno ṯā atal amar na mu▫ā.

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humble
God will give candies.

But humble ji, the problem is that candy has different flavors. It's not just fixated on one flavor. There is fruit flavored candy, sour candy, peppermint candy, sugar coated candy, etc. Which flavor of candy are you referring to? And which flavor you claim to have "experienced" or "tasted" through your "spiritual experiences"? Kindly please do let us know.

Forget about me, you are a pious person & have taken Amrit. Tell me about your inner journey & point out were a sinner like me is wrong. So I can learn from you & mend my ways. Only your own experiences please. bhul chuk maaf.. PAPPI LIKE ME CAN LEARN FROM A LEARNED PERSON LIKE YOU. You know helping others can benefit you too. hud beeti not jug beeti.....

We are Guru kei Sikhs Guru Maharaaj don't allow us to tell publicly the spiritual experiences that with his kirpa and Naam we saw in our life.And what kind of journey you are talking about a Sikh's journey starts when he took Amrit from punj pyare.In our eyes your journey is only a illusion and we don't think it to be right.If you think you have started your journey then go on it and stop posting these creepy and weird kind of posts in this forum which have a harsh impact on all religious sentiments..This forum is for Guru kei Sikhs only.Go and search for some sehajdhari forum and ask them about their journey may be there you could found your answers.

I havent read most of the above posts, but I definitely disagree with one of the statements above that this forum is for amritdhari gursikhs only. This is a forum for anyone to learn about gurmat and hopefully be inspired to become a pooran gursikh, amritdharis and non-amritdharis alike. So no one should feel that they are not welcome to ask questions here if they are doing it with the sincere and humble intention to learn.

SK, I think you have misunderstood p21singh. He did not mean that only Amritdharis can come to this forum but what he meant was that the this forum promotes the path of Amritdharis and not the follower of dubious sants or organizations. "Humble" has been promoting his twisted understanding of mysticism whereby one can have mystical experiences even if one is not an Amritdhari.

Kulbir Singh

Kulbir Singh ji I beg to disagree a little. Of course one can have mystical experiences if one is not amritdhari. The points of difference are:
1. Does Gurmat endorse those experiences or does it deprecate them.
2. Does Gurmat offer only those experiences or much more beyond that.

There are so many legitimate religious traditions all over the world and there are uncountable other planets and we have no idea what kind of Atamic experiences they must have. Instead of trying to argue that there is nothing possible outside Gurmat it would be better to say that Gurbani teaches and advocates such and such experiences and these can be had on Guramt marg. Other human beings who follow different legitimate paths are not children of a lesser God.

And Bhagti maarg is not restricted to just Gurmat. Dhruv Prahalad were Vishnu Bhagats. And they did such Bhagti that even Guru Sahibs gave their examples in Gurbani. Yes I am am aware that Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh ji has written that it was Satnaam which did their uddhaar in the end but they had their experiences before that.

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There are so many legitimate religious traditions all over the world and there are uncountable other planets and we have no idea what kind of Atamic experiences they must have. Instead of trying to argue that there is nothing possible outside Gurmat it would be better to say that Gurbani teaches and advocates such and such experiences and these can be had on Guramt marg. Other human beings who follow different legitimate paths are not children of a lesser God.

Sorry for not being clear in my last post. You are correct that people can have mystical experiences out of Sikhi also but these experiences are very inferior as compared to Gurmat Rahasvaad (mysticism) because these experiences are related to inferior deities like Siri Krishna, Durga, Allah etc.

You have mentioned above that there are other "legitimate religious traditions". I am not aware of any legitimate religion other than Gurmat. Please point out which other religious tradition is legitimate. And, non-Sikhs are not children of lesser god but they are definitely worshipers of lesser gods like Vishnu jee, Durga, Allah etc. Only Sikhs are worshipers of Vaheguru because other than Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee, no one knows about Vaheguru.

Kulbir Singh

Kulbir Singh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There are so many legitimate religious traditions
> all over the world and there are uncountable other
> planets and we have no idea what kind of Atamic
> experiences they must have. Instead of trying to
> argue that there is nothing possible outside
> Gurmat it would be better to say that Gurbani
> teaches and advocates such and such experiences
> and these can be had on Guramt marg. Other human
> beings who follow different legitimate paths are
> not children of a lesser God.
>
> Sorry for not being clear in my last post. You
> are correct that people can have mystical
> experiences out of Sikhi also but these
> experiences are very inferior as compared to
> Gurmat Rahasvaad (mysticism) because these
> experiences are related to inferior deities like
> Siri Krishna, Durga, Allah etc.
>
> You have mentioned above that there are other
> "legitimate religious traditions". I am not aware
> of any legitimate religion other than Gurmat.
> Please point out which other religious tradition
> is legitimate. And, non-Sikhs are not children of
> lesser god but they are definitely worshipers of
> lesser gods like Vishnu jee, Durga, Allah etc.
> Only Sikhs are worshipers of Vaheguru because
> other than Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee, no one knows
> about Vaheguru.
>
> Kulbir Singh


Bhai Sahib, is Allah a lesser deity? Or is it just another name for Akaal Purakh? You mentioned Allah as an inferior deity twice. Please clarify.

Both birth and death come about by Shabd,
Rebirth too is because of Shabd. 1
GURU AMAR DAS

Everything from beginning to end exists in Shabd. The physical elements, the subtle and ethereal powers and vibrations, the causal seeds and essences, one and all are from Shabd and nothing but Shabd personified. We live and have our very being in Shabd and ultimately dissolve into Shabd. All the scriptures of the world tell us that Shabd is above the material and efficient cause and All-
Controlling Power of the Universe.

He is all in all Himself and revels in His creation by supporting it by Shabd. 2
GURU NANAK DEV JEE

There is none like Thee in the entire creation,
In Thy Word Thou art manifesting Thyself.
Whatever Thou wishest, that comes to pass. 3
GURU RAM DAS.......................JEE

All things are manifestations of His Will,
But His Will is beyond description.
By His Will is matter quickened into life,
By His Will is greatness obtained.
By His Will some are born high and others low,
By His Will (the impious) wander in endless transmigration.
All exists under His Will,
And nothing stands outside.
One attuned with His Will, O Nanak, is wholly free from ego.

The earth and the sky were made by Shabd,
Shabd has been the source of all light.
The whole creation sprang from Shabd,
O Nanak! Shabd is the very life of life. 7

Having set up everything, He beheld His own imprint therein,
He established the beautiful earth and the starry welkin,
He raised the tabernacle of heaven with no pillars to support.
He created the sun and the moon with all the starry host
and His light is pervading all. 8
GURU NANAK DEV JEE
With the True Word, one knows the Truth,
With the True Sound, one sings the glory of the Lord. 11
GURU NANAK DEV JEE
It (Shabd) has been the saving lifeline in all the ages,
Prehlad, the son of the demon-king, knew neither Gayatri nor any rituals,
He became one with God through contact with the Shabd. 19
GURU AMAR DAS JEE

Kulbir Singh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> You have mentioned above that there are other
> "legitimate religious traditions". I am not aware
> of any legitimate religion other than Gurmat.
> Please point out which other religious tradition
> is legitimate. And, non-Sikhs are not children of
> lesser god but they are definitely worshipers of
> lesser gods like Vishnu jee, Durga, Allah etc.
> Only Sikhs are worshipers of Vaheguru because
> other than Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee, no one knows
> about Vaheguru.
>

I do not know how you say none of other traditions are legitimate. Its not that I do not believe in supremacy of Gurmat maarg. Bhai Gurdass ji has very rightly called it ਗਾਡੀ ਰਾਹ . But legitimacy of a path is about the truthfulness and integrity of heart's desire to meet God. It is not concerned with whether that path is perfect or supreme.

For example can you deny that Rabia, the great lady sufi saint was an earnest seeker of God? Do you think she was not a legitimate seeker and do you think her path was not legitimate? Her path was legitimate even if it was inferior.

Kulbir Singh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Only Sikhs are worshipers of Vaheguru because other than Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee, no one knows about Vaheguru.

I cited the example of Bhagat Dhruv and Prahalad. Another example of Raja Janak.

ਭਾਈ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਜੀ ਜੇ ਇਹਨਾਂ ਭਗਤਾਂ ਨੇ ਸੱਚੀ ਭਗਤੀ ਕੀਤੀ ਐ ਤਾਹੀਂ ਇਹਨਾਂ ਤੇ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਖੁਸ਼ ਹੋਏ ਨੇ. ਐਵੇਂ ਥੋੜਾ ਇਹਨਾ ਦੀ ਵਡਿਆਈ ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਚ ਲਿਖੀ ਐ !

ਇੱਕ ਪਾਸੇ ਇਹਨਾਂ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਭਗਤਾਂ ਦੀ ਇਹਨੀ ਸਿਫਤ ਲਿਖੀ ਹੈ ਕੀ ਗੁਰਸਿਖਾਂ ਲਈ ਇਹਨਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਪ੍ਰੇਰਨਾ-ਸ੍ਰੋਤ ਦੇ ਤੌਰ ਤੇ ਪ੍ਰਸਤੁਤ ਕੀਤਾ ਗਿਆ ਹੈ ਤੇ ਦੂਜੇ ਪਾਸੇ ਇਹ ਕਿਹਾ ਜਾਵੇ ਕਿ ਜੀ ਇਹ ਤਾਂ ਐਵੇ ਗੁਮਰਾਹ ਹੋਏ ਹੋਏ ਸੀ , ਦੱਸੋ ਕੀ ਇਹ ਕੋਈ ਤਰਕਸੰਗਤ ਗੱਲ ਹੈ ?

ਤੁਸੀਂ ਹੁਣ ਕਹੋਂਗੇ ਕਿ ਇਹਨਾ ਸਭਨਾ ਦਾ ਉਧਾਰ ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਨੇ ਹੀ ਕੀਤਾ ਹੈ . ਇਸ ਗੱਲ ਦੇ ਮੰਨ ਲੈਣ ਵਿਚ ਕੋਈ ਹਰਜ਼ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੈ ਕਿਉਂਕਿ ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਤਾਂ ਆਪ ਪਰਮੇਸ਼ਰ ਹਨ . ਪਰ ਜੇ ਇਹ ਸਾਰੇ ਐਵੇਂ ਹੀ ਹਨੇਰੇ ਵਿਚ ਭਟਕਦੇ ਸੀ ਤੇ ਇਹਨਾ ਦਾ ਰਸਤਾ ਵੈਧ (legitimate) ਹੀ ਨਹੀਂ ਸੀ ਤਾਂ ਇਹ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਦੇ ਪਾਤਰ ਕਿਵੇਂ ਬਣ ਸਕਦੇ ਨੇ ? ਕਿਵੇ ਗੁਰੂ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਨੇ ਕਹਿ ਦਿਤਾ :

ਰਾਮ ਜਪਉ ਜੀਅ ਐਸੇ ਐਸੇ ॥ ਧ੍ਰੂ ਪ੍ਰਹਿਲਾਦ ਜਪਿਓ ਹਰਿ ਜੈਸੇ ॥

ਤੇ ਨਾਲੇ ਇਹ ਵੀ ਦੇਖ ਲਵੋ :

"ਪਰ ਉਧਾਰ ਹੋਇਆ ਉਨ੍ਹਾ ਭਗਤਾਂ ਦਾ ਭਿ ਗਿਣਿਆ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ . ਉਧਾਰ ਉਧਾਰ ਵਿਚ ਭੀ ਫਰਕ ਹੈ . ਚੁਰਾਸੀ ਤੋ ਛੁਟਣਾ ਭੀ ਇਕ ਪ੍ਰਕਾਰ ਦਾ ਉਧਰ ਨਿਸਤਾਰਾ ਹੀ ਗਿਣਿਆ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ . ਨਰਕਾਂ ਤੋਂ ਬਚ ਕੇ ਸੁਰਗ ਲੋਕ ਵਿਚ ਵਾਸਾ ਹੋਣਾ ਭੀ ਇਛਾ ਰਖਣ ਵਾਲਿਆਂ ਲਈ ਇਕ ਉਧਰ ਹੈ . ਸੁਰਗ ਤੋਂ ਉਪਰੰਤ ਮੁਕਤ - ਮੰਡਲ ਵਾਲਿਆਂ ਦਾ ਭੀ ਉਧਾਰ ਹੋਇਆ ਹੀ ਮੰਨਿਆ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ . ਕ੍ਰਮ ਖੰਡ ਦੇ ਨਦਰ ਮੰਡਲ ਵਿਚ ਪ੍ਰਵੇਸ਼ ਹੋਈਆਂ ਭਗਤਾਂ ਦੀਆਂ ਰੂਹਾਂ ਦਾ ਭੀ ਉਧਰ ਨਿਸਤਾਰਾ ਹੀ ਗਿਣਿਆ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ ."

(ਗੁਰਮਤ ਪ੍ਰਕਾਸ਼ )

ਇਸ ਤੋ ਘਟੋ ਘਟ ਇਹ ਸਿਧ ਤਾਂ ਹੋ ਹੀ ਗਿਆ ਕੀ ਭਾਵੇ ਗੁਰਮਤ ਤੋ ਵਖਰੇ ਰਾਹ ਦੇ ਭਗਤ ਸਚਖੰਡ ਨਹੀ ਪਹੁੰਚੇ ਪਰ ਫੇਰ ਵੀ ਉਹ ਕੀਤੇ ਤਾਂ ਪਹੁੰਚੇ ਹੀ ਹਨ . ਜੇ ਉਹ ਇਹੋ ਜਿਹੇ ਰਸਤੇ ਤੇ ਤੁਰੇ ਜੋ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਨੂੰ ਪਸੰਦ ਹੀ ਨਹੀਂ ਜਾਂ ਜੋ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵੱਲ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੀ ਨਹੀਂ ਸੀ ਤਾਂ ਫੇਰ ਉਹ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਦੇ ਪਾਤਰ ਕਿਵੇਂ ਬਣ ਗਏ ? ਉਹ ਇਹਨਾਂ ਉੱਚੇ ਮੰਡਲਾਂ ਤੱਕ ਕਿਵੇਂ ਪਹੁੰਚ ਗਏ ? ਤੇ ਫੇਰ ਗੁਰੂ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਨੂੰ ਕੀ ਲੋੜ ਪਈ ਸੀ ਓਹਨਾਂ ਦੇ example ਦੇਣ ਦੀ ? ਸੋ ਇਹ ਕਹਿਣਾ ਗਲਤ ਹੈ ਕੀ ਓਹਨਾਂ ਦਾ ਰਸਤਾ ਵੈਧ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੈ ਤੇ ਉਹ ਐਵੇਂ ਤੁਰੇ ਫਿਰਦੇ ਸੀ . ਹਾਂ ਗੁਰਮਤ ਦਾ ਮਾਰਗ ਸ਼ਾਹ ਮਾਰਗ ਹੈ , ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਸਤਿਨਾਮ ਦੇ ਦਾਤੇ ਹਨ, ਤੇ ਸਤਿਨਾਮੁ ਸਰਵਸ੍ਰੇਸ਼ਟ ਹੈ , ਇਹ ਵਿਚਾਰ ਵਿਚ ਕੁਛ ਵੀ ਇਤਰਾਜ਼ ਯੋਗ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੈ .

I have been following the thread since my original post and observed that it has taken a turn in a different direction.

Bhai Kulbir Singh, I mentioned I am a beginner but I wish you give some detailed clarification. If your recent posts are to be taken literally, then you are actually accepting if not promoting the idea that there are other gods than akaal purakh, be as they may of a "lesser diety" or "inferior". I would assume that this then goes directly against the concept of "Ik Onkaar" which is the basis of our entire dharam and is a universally accepted policy amongst all Sikhs. Like gsingh above, I have also been taught and learned that Jehovah, Allah and Raam are just other names for almighty Vaheguru. Vaheguru in return rewards bhagats of other dharams and paths as per their earning, karmas and worship and gains happiness from their dedication. While only Guru valay are capable of reaching two khands, namely Sachkhand and another one I cannot remember (either Saram Khand or Karam Khand), the followers of other paths can avoid churasee gehra, naraks and take vishraam in heavens and ultimately liberate through Guru & Gurmantar.

It would be another theory if your meaning was that names other than gurmantar are "inferior" names and provide less satisfactory outcomes, but your message is being interpreted as an idea of lesser dieties and inferior gods existing co-side with or under Vaheguru. I hope my question isn't confused with devi devtay, prophets, christian saints etc. I'm asking about GODS. Were you intending to write that such NAMES are "inferior"?

Before things get nasty, I am not attacking you or your posts, just wanting some detailed clarification ASSUMING what you've written in relation to the concept of "Ik Onkaar".

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Bhai Sahib, is Allah a lesser deity? Or is it just another name for Akaal Purakh? You mentioned Allah as an inferior deity twice. Please clarify.

Gsingh jee: When "Allah" or even "Gopal", "Gobind" (names of Siri Krishna) are used in Gurbani, they are mostly used for Vaheguru but the "Allah" whose messenger was Prophet Muhammad is not Vaheguru to whom Sikhs worship but a deity similar to Shiva, Brahma etc. Allah the Vaheguru had no messenger by the name of Abraham, Muhammad or Jesus, nor he took the avtaar of Siri Krishna, Siri Rama etc. The Allah of Quran is different from the Vaheguru praised in Gurbani.

In order to understand the difference between Allah the Vaheguru and Allah of Quran, all you need to do is study Quran, Bible or Torah etc. and you will realize that they are different from Vaheguru jee. Vaheguru is above all and only sanctioned Gurmat Dharam, and no other Dharma. Brahma, Mahesh (Shiv jee), Vishnu, Allah etc. too have started religions in their own capacity. Even though, the power behind all powers in the creation is Vaheguru, but these religions founded by the aforementioned deities are not sanctioned or approved by Vaheguru jee.

Judging by the description of Allah's Jannat, we can safely conclude that it lies in Gyaan Khand. Jannat is very similar to Heaven, Swarag and Baikunth etc. Therefore Allah of Quran too is in Gyankhand where many other deities are present.

If you believe that Allah of Quran and Vaheguru are the same Deity, and that Vaheguru/Allah sent Prophet Muhammad as His messenger, then as a Sikh you would have to believe that the Prophet lied about everything and that Quran was a product of his imagination because the prophet's message is different from Gurmat. Quran was inspired by Allah (not Vaheguru) and Prophet Muhammad indeed received messages from Allah.

If you believe that Vaheguru is the Allah of Quran, then how would you reconcile the differences between Gurmat and Islam? If you say that Gurmat is the truth, then you would have to say that Islam is based on lies and fabrication. People who say that all religions came from the same Vaheguru fail to explain why there are such drastic differences between their philosophies. Why would Vaheguru start Islam and then start Gurmat just 1000 years later? The truth of the matter is that Islam was inspired by Allah, Vaishnav religion was inspired by Vishnu or Siri Krishna, Shaiv religion was inspired by Shiv jee and so on. The only religion sanctioned by Vaheguru is Gurmat and none else.

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But legitimacy of a path is about the truthfulness and integrity of heart's desire to meet God. It is not concerned with whether that path is perfect or supreme.

Eyesacademic jeeo,

For example can you deny that Rabia, the great lady sufi saint was an earnest seeker of God? Do you think she was not a legitimate seeker and do you think her path was not legitimate? Her path was legitimate even if it was inferior.

It's not true that legitimacy of a path is about the truthfulness of the seeker. If a bonafide seeker gets stuck in a path that is incomplete or imperfect, then such seeker will not reach Vaheguru. In order to reach Vaheguru, not only the seeker has to be bonafide but the path too has to be bonafide and the only bonafide path is Gurmat. I agree that Rabia seems to be a great seeker just like great Indian saint Meerabai was but without the True Bonafide Guru and Bonafide, they could not have reached the ultimate destination Vaheguru jee.

Kulbir Singh