Doing Dhunni (Simran) in Keertan

A few weeks ago I was in Toronto attending a Gurmat Class with some of the Singhs from this forum. We were reading a chapter from Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh’s Book Unditti Dunia. The chapter was talking about Jamdoots. Bhai Sahib writes about someone he knew who was being visited by a Jamdoot, his name was Kehar Singh. Bhai Sahib writes that Kehar Singh was in a very bad state, he was constantly being scared by the Jamdoot, and he told Bhai Sahib that the Jamdoot would come every five minutes to scare him. When Bhai Sahib came into the room the Jamdoot ran away and had not come back as long Bhai Sahib was there. He told Bhai Sahib that today I have realized that doing Bhagti is the right way in this world. He was in a very bad shape physically because of some illness and mentally because of the Jamdoot. Bhai Sahib writes that seeing him like this he felt very sorry for him, he wanted to help him, he wanted to tell him to recite Gurmantar -Naam so he could save himself. But Bhai Sahib writes that this is against Gurmat, we cannot tell someone to recite Gurmantar-Naam, only Panj Pyare can do that. Bhai Sahib writes he was scared to break this Hukam of Guru Sahib, he had not done anything wrong like this his entire life and he couldn’t do it then. At that time in Jail an Amrit Sanchar Smagam could not be organised and he alone could not give him Naam or tell him to recite Naam.


Now we need to think, if Bhai Sahib could not even tell him to recite Vaahiguroo Gurmantar, not give him Naam Drirr, but he could not even say to the man to recite Vahiguroo, then what are we doing in Keertan? We are constantly doing Simran in Keertan and constantly getting the entire Sangat to Jap Naam and getting them to recite Vaahiguroo. This is wrong and goes against the teachings of Guru Sahib. There are many people in Sangat that do not have Naam and we are getting them to Jap Naam and do Simran. Only the Panj Pyare have that responsibility. Naam is always Gupt; we do not openly Jap Naam. Bhai Sahib was AFRAID to even tell the man to say Vaahiguroo, yet we get the entire Sangat to say Vaahiguroo thousands of times during Rainsbhais! We need to think about this and take into account Bhai Sahib’s writings, doing Simran in Keertan is wrong and against Guru Sahib’s Hukam.

What are you saying bhai sahib jee.We cannot even tell someone to jap naam.I dont think so
Guru maharaaj himself told Aap Japoh Avaraa Naam Japaoo.
I dont get you really.Yes we cannot give gurti of naam to anyone because even we dont have it ourselves.
But to tell someone to naam jaap is prohibited in gurmat I dont think so.

I am looking to other gursikhs to shed some light on it.

Bhul chuk maafi ji

If someone feels that they can't do simran in sangat, then its not wrong to do kirtan without simran.
But how could something that gives so much anand and piaar be wrong?

simran in kirtan is not necessary, but it's not wrong either. Otherwise so many gursikhs would not have done it.

An old post on Tapoban Sahib forum by Bhai Balpreet Singh. I hope it will suffice.

"A lot of abhiyasi Gursikhs don't go to Smagams anymore because of the spectacle they have become.

It's a fact that the Akhand Kirtani Jatha has become something very different than what it once was.

The Kirtan is now often very flashy and gimmicky. It's also sad that some kirtanis are actually paid to attend smagams. The kirtan is not akhand and the abhyaas in it isn't akhand. It's just a mixture of both. People that don't know what's going on feel uncomfortable seeing the kirtan at many smagams now because it seems people are screaming and jumping. This isn't just a rare person, often the entire stage is going crazy.

I asked a Singh who did sangat with Bhai Sahib about this. He said he saw on two occassions when a Singh started to do loud abhyaas in kirtan. He said Bhai Sahib said out loud once "Ghar jaa ke kharkaao" and the second time Bhai Sahib said, "liaayo khoonda, sodhiyay Kookay noo(n)" ie. bring me a stick, let's punish this Kooka.

Today we have new and innovative ways of doing dhunni that surpass even the old style with "hardcore" styles.

The whole point of the Akhand Kirtani Jatha was to inspire people with Jeevan-vale abhiyasi Gursikhs doing kirtan that has spiritual power. Today it seems there is more focus on who can play the best tune.

Two aspects of Akhand Kirtani Jatha that have been totally neglected are Akhand Paath Sahibs and also Amrit Sinchaars. Both of these were fundamental parts of any smagam. People would be inspired by the kirtans to become 'guru-vale' and so the success of a Smagam was often measured by how many abhilakhi there were at the Amrit Sinchaar.

Anyways, without going on much further, it's sad to see the Akhand Kirtani Jatha become something totally different than what older Singhs experienced and what you can hear from them."

I disagree with the view points within this post.

Look at all of the gurmukh pyare who would themselves do simran in sangat and get others to jaap naam in sangat. In Kirtan form to name a few there's:

Giani Amolak Singh Ji
Bhai Jeevan Singh Ji
Bhai Joginder Singh Ji Talwara
Master Niranjan Singh Ji
Bhai Tejinderpal Singh Ji Dulla Ji
Bhai Harpreet Singh Ji
Bhai Surjeet Singh Ji

Many Gurmukhs arranged simran programs in which people who have as of yet not took Amrit can still attend. We all know Bhai Rama Singh Ji began Amrit vela simran in park avenue gurdwara, southall. Bhai Surat Singh Ji Pooran Ji Amrit vela simran in Amritsar has been attended by many different people. Then there's the naam abaiyass smagams at Rampur Khera.

So are all these gurmukh pyare doing something against gurmat? Of course not.

I've yet to come across a gurvak stating not to say vaheguru unless everyone is amritdhari.

[gurmatbibek.com]

Bhai Jeevan Singh Ji on "Dhuni" in Keertan:

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Many years later, he came to Weston Gurdwara Sahib where Singhs used to gather and do abhyaas. After abhyaas, there were at least 5 or 6 Singhs who had a small talk with Bhai Sahib. During the talk we asked Bhai Sahib about dhuni in Kirtan. The first question we asked was if Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh jee used to do dhuni in Kirtan. He said no. Next question was if he used to do dhuni in Kirtan and he again said no. The last question was how he started doing dhuni in Kirtan. His answer was “Dekha dekhi.” Bhai Sahib said that the form of dhuni that is prevalent today was not in olden days. Dhuni only happened when it was divinely inspired or the kirtaniya could not help it. It was done in rare cases but when it did occur, it went on for hours.

May Guru Sahib do mehar and may we get darshan of Gursikhs who are beloved of our Guru Sahib.

Humbly,
Kulbir Singh

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A few weeks ago I was in Toronto attending a Gurmat Class with some of the Singhs from this forum. We were reading a chapter from Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh’s Book Unditti Dunia. The chapter was talking about Jamdoots. Bhai Sahib writes about someone he knew who was being visited by a Jamdoot, his name was Kehar Singh. Bhai Sahib writes that Kehar Singh was in a very bad state, he was constantly being scared by the Jamdoot, and he told Bhai Sahib that the Jamdoot would come every five minutes to scare him. When Bhai Sahib came into the room the Jamdoot ran away and had not come back as long Bhai Sahib was there. He told Bhai Sahib that today I have realized that doing Bhagti is the right way in this world. He was in a very bad shape physically because of some illness and mentally because of the Jamdoot. Bhai Sahib writes that seeing him like this he felt very sorry for him, he wanted to help him, he wanted to tell him to recite Gurmantar -Naam so he could save himself. But Bhai Sahib writes that this is against Gurmat, we cannot tell someone to recite Gurmantar-Naam, only Panj Pyare can do that. Bhai Sahib writes he was scared to break this Hukam of Guru Sahib, he had not done anything wrong like this his entire life and he couldn’t do it then. At that time in Jail an Amrit Sanchar Smagam could not be organised and he alone could not give him Naam or tell him to recite Naam.

I think you are taking this story out of its original context. Nowhere can we imply from this story that we shouldnt do naam simran in front of other people in the Gurdwara Sahib. The story illustrates that only Guru Sahib can give instructions to Jaap Naam. Japping naam should not be equated with giving naam or giving technique to Jaap Naam. If we are people who make Naam Simran the main part of our life and we want to encourage others to live a life of naam then their is no harm in japping naam in sangat. From what I told there where times when Bhai Sahib and the Jatha use to jaap naam for hours in sangat.

By medidating on naam in front of others we are being like big brothers picking up our little brothers to see the fair above the fence. Here is a story about Japping naam to encourage others based on the life of Sant Sundar Singh Ji Bhindrawale.




One day a group of 8 Singhs approached Sant Sunder Singh Ji ( Bhinda) and said: Gurbani mentions ਧਰਤਿ ਪਾਤਾਲੁ ਆਕਾਸੁ ਹੈ ਮੇਰੀ ਜਿੰਦੁੜੀਏ ਸਭ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਧਿਆਵੈ ਰਾਮ ॥ Kindly teach us this stage where he hear Naam penetrating everywhere.

Sant Ji replied " Go and do full ishnaan ( including kesh)" After doing full ishnaan, the Singhs approached the Darbar Sahib where Sri GUru Granth SAHIB Ji was present. Sant jI then replied " KHalsa JI! Bow down to Sri GUru Granth Sahib Ji with full faith and trust knowing the 10 jots of GUru Sahiban resides in Sri GUru Granth Sahib JI" Sant Ji then told the SInghs to place their ears across the wall and listen to the mool mantar. As they did they heard the Gurmantar coming from the Throne of Sri GUru Granth Sahib JI. The Singhs then became in a careless state and completely forgot about food and drink with each swas they started japping naam feeling the presence of naam everywhere.

For some days they were in this carefree state of meditation. Eventually Sant Ji approached them and said " Singho, come and lets bow down to Sri Guru Granth Sahib JI" After they paid their respects Sant Ji explained to them that when a boy is young his older brother picks him up across the shoulder so he can have a look at the fair. But the boy only gets true bliss when he grows up and is tall enough to see the fair by himself. Likewise as you received the Gurmantar from the panj pyaarey you must do lots and lots of naam abhyiaas then you will enjoy the true anand of naam abhyiaas.

The problem isnt doing naam abhiyaas in kirtan. We should be doing naam abhiyaas at all times. However, we also need to practice discretion in front of individuals who havent yet recieved naam, as we don't have the authority to give vidhi of naam to them. The problem with dhunee is simply that, if we are the keertani we are leading the sangat and telling them what to say and having them repeat after us. If we as the keertani get sangat to repeat gurmantar after us, then that to me seems equivalent to implicitly giving gurmantar to non-amritdharis.

I think naam simran is done differently in different locations. I remember some months ago I was wathcing a Toronto Smagam on Yotube. I noticed some of the sangat were doing naam simran out of tune from sangat and they kept doing naam simran real loud even while kirtan was going on. I think this type of behavior is what Bhai Balpreet Singh Ji ( in the article above) is referring to as it puts general sangat off , and I think this type of behavior is what Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh Ji condemed. I think most likely it was the naam dharis attending such programs and doing naam simran out loud and making sangat feel uncomfortable. Today there is a new group called Dasam Duari Sangat and some of the members continue to do this even though senior members have advised against it.

Most smagams I have attended Naam Simran is done in steady pace just to encourage sangat to do simran. Its not done real loud and according to method taught by panj pyaarey. Every Hukum in Gurbani tells us to jaap naam and many people come to the Gurdwara regulary do not even understand this simple message. By meditating along with sangat they are encourage to take amrit and live a life of naam jaap.

I disagree when Bhai Balpreet Singh Ji mentions mixing Kirtan and Naam Simran the Kirtan no longer becomes Akhand. Some years ago I had similar opinions but when I asked a Singh about it he scolded me and said its disrespectful to say naam simran no longer makes kirtan Akhand as Gurbani KIrtan and Naam are one and the same. Akhand kirtan is only broken when mixed with katha or kachi bani ( dharna)

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Most smagams I have attended Naam Simran is done in steady pace just to encourage sangat to do simran. Its not done real loud and according to method taught by panj pyaarey. Every Hukum in Gurbani tells us to jaap naam and many people come to the Gurdwara regulary do not even understand this simple message. By meditating along with sangat they are encourage to take amrit and live a life of naam jaap.

Don't want to debate this issue as there is nothing new to say but the above statement is misleading. At Siri Harmandir Sahib, dhuni of Gurmantr is not allowed and I have witnessed this myself that couple of decades before, dhuni was not done much anywhere, except for AKJ samagams. Now Dhuni has become very common in even non-AKJ samagams but so far it has not been started at Siri Harmandir Sahib where only Gurbani Kirtan is allowed. Naam Simran is for such individuals who have offered their heads to Guru Sahib and in return received Naam. For people who have not offered their heads to Guru Sahib i.e. have not received Amrit yet, should only do Gurbani Paath or Kirtan. Since the Sikh Gurdwaras are open to all, and all kinds of people, both Amritdhari and non-Amritdhari, come there, only Kirtan of Gurbani has been done since the beginning.

Kirtan at AKJ samagams is done in Sangati form i.e. the leading Kirtaniya sings the Pankiti, and then the Sangat sings behind him or her. The Kirtaniya knows that whatever he or she says, the Sangat will repeat behind. The Sangat includes both Amritdharis and non-Amritdharis. Now when the Kirtaniya starts the Dhuni of Gurmantr, he or she is intentionally having non-Amritdharis, who are not authorized by the True Satguru, to chant Naam, which is against Gurmat. It makes no difference to us since we don't raise Dhuni in Kirtan but it is very detrimental to the spiritual health of the Kirtaniya who leads unauthorized non-Amritdhari individuals to chant Gurmat Naam.

We have asked many senior Gurmukhs from Bhai Sahib jee's times, within the Jatha and they have unanimously opined that Dhuni was not done at the time of Bhai Sahib in the form it's done now. No one intentionally raised Dhuni at that time and the Dhuni only occurred when some mystical Gurmat state took over the Kirtaniya and he was unable to control himself and could only say the Gurmat Naam. In such cases Dhuni went on for long long time and not for 30 seconds of 1 minute as it is done today. Bhai Jeevan Singh jee, Bhai Mahinder Singh jee Kala Sangha, and Bhai Harbhajan Singh jee Shatrana etc. all have vouched for the aforementioned.

Rest, Sukhdeep Singh jee, what you have written is your personal opinion and in our opinion it's not the Gurmat viewpoint. We definitely don't approve of intentional raising of Dhuni in Kirtan since it violates the Gurmat principle of not chanting Naam with non-Amritdharis. Having said that, no one can oppose the raising of Naam Dhuni, when it happens due to Gurmat spiritual or mystical reason as was the case during the time of Bhai Sahib jee.

Kulbir Singh

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Rest, Sukhdeep Singh jee, what you have written is your personal opinion and in our opinion it's not the Gurmat viewpoint.

Do you mean to tell me that Gurmukhs such as Bhai Rama SIngh Ji and Bhai Jeevan Singh Ji were going against Gurmat by doing Dhuni in Kirtan?

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Kirtan at AKJ samagams is done in Sangati form i.e. the leading Kirtaniya sings the Pankiti, and then the Sangat sings behind him or her. The Kirtaniya knows that whatever he or she says, the Sangat will repeat behind. The Sangat includes both Amritdharis and non-Amritdharis. Now when the Kirtaniya starts the Dhuni of Gurmantr, he or she is intentionally having non-Amritdharis, who are not authorized by the True Satguru, to chant Naam, which is against Gurmat. It makes no difference to us since we don't raise Dhuni in Kirtan but it is very detrimental to the spiritual health of the Kirtaniya who leads unauthorized non-Amritdhari individuals to chant Gurmat Naam.

I think we are getting mixed up here. Gurmat naam is given by the Guru. A person cant give anyone naam nor are they telling someone to jaap naam by japping naam.

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Do you mean to tell me that Gurmukhs such as Bhai Rama SIngh Ji and Bhai Jeevan Singh Ji were going against Gurmat by doing Dhuni in Kirtan?

Do you mean to say that Bhai Mahinder Singh jee Kala Sangha and Bhai Harbhajan Singh Shatrana did against Gurmat, by advising that Dhuni should not be done in Kirtan, unless it becomes out of control? And Bhai Jeevan Singh himself told us, as quoted in the previous post in this thread that he started doing Dhuni "Dekha Dekhi" and did not used to do Dhuni when Bhai Sahib was alive in body. Do you mean to say that he was doing anti-Gurmat at the time of Bhai Sahib by not doing Dhuni?

The point I am trying to make above is that this kind of argument is not sustainable that since so and so Singh was doing something, it has to be hundred percent Gurmat.

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I think we are getting mixed up here. Gurmat naam is given by the Guru. A person cant give anyone naam nor are they telling someone to jaap naam by japping naam.

I am not mixing up anything here. Of course the leading Kirtaniya implicitly is having non-Amridharis do Gurmat Naam Simran and to do so knowingly is against Gurmat.

Kulbir Singh

I suggest that we start using smileys in our posts, because we don't want to scare eachother and get mad and stuff. We might be saying something with piar, but only the words can be seen here, so it may be seen as anger.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh,

Bhai Kulvir Singh Ji:

I say the following comments with upmost respect for yourself and the other gursikh on this forum.

My first comment in reply to yourself is you must be able to see a number of wise gurmukh pyare who do simran during kirtan. All the names mentioned within my previous post are highly respected individuals within the khalsa panth. I feel that stating that what they are doing is anti-gurmat is disrespectful. Also, stating something as against gurmat would be defined as something that is against guru maharaj ji's bachan. But no gurbani pangtis have been put forward stating guru maharaj ji is against this. If non-amritdharis can't hear waheguru then what about shabads like "Waheguru Waheguru Waheguru Wahe-Jio"?

Also stating that gursikhs from Bhai Sahib Jis time are unanimously against dhunni is incorrect as many gursikhs of Bhai Sahib Jis time do simran in their kirtan (Bhai Joginder Singh Ji Talwara, Giani Amolak Singh Ji, Bhai Jasbir Singh Ji Chandighar, Bhai Preetam Singh Ji Anjaan).

Using darbar sahib as an example isn't fair eiither as they also don't let female gursikh partake in kirtan (though AKJ from Bhai Sahib Jis time allowed female kirtania).

Finally if dhunni has a negative effect on jivanieh wouldnt elder gurmukhs have opposed it more. I've yet to hear from the gurmukhs who do panj pyare seva that it shouldn't be done. On the contrary, many themselves do simran during rainsbais (Bhai Kulwant Singh Ji Kaki Pind, Bhai Tarsem Singh Ji, Bhai Rama Singh Ji).

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If non-amritdharis can't hear waheguru then what about shabads like "Waheguru Waheguru Waheguru Wahe-Jio"?

The issue is not that non-Amritdharis should not hear Gurmat Naam but the issue is that is it in accordance to Gurmat to lead them to chant Gurmat Naam. If Gursikhs are doing Naam Abhyaas on their own and non-Amritdharis hear it, there is nothing wrong but if a Gursikh Kirtaniya leads them to chant Gurmat Naam, then it seems to be wrong.

Rest it's up to the Kirtaniya if he or she wants to lead non-Amritdhari people to do Simran or not. It does not make too much difference to Srotay (ones listening to Kirtan) who are sitting in Sangat and doing and enjoying Kirtan by singing behind or just listening to it.

Kulbir Singh

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Sukhdeep Singh
Most smagams I have attended Naam Simran is done in steady pace just to encourage sangat to do simran. Its not done real loud and according to method taught by panj pyaarey. Every Hukum in Gurbani tells us to jaap naam and many people come to the Gurdwara regulary do not even understand this simple message. By meditating along with sangat they are encourage to take amrit and live a life of naam jaap.

Bhai Sahib Jee,

1. Many people quote various sangees of Bhai Sahib Randheer Singh & myself have seen conflicting accounts which lead to confusion ....on various issues.

Had the chance to speak to 2 individuals who were born into Bhai Sahib's Sangat. Bibi Daler Kaur's son and Mata Paramjeet Kaur (born into Narangwal as Bhai Sahib's neighbour and did Bhai Sahib's sangat as a child).
Both said No, Bhai Sahib didn't use to do dhunni in keertan like how it is being done thesedays in AKJ. (on my query to them)
Bibi jee narrated she recall's Bhai Sahib uttering Gurmat Naam to himself during the time the sangat sings along the shabad line by line. Thats all.
The reason why their account matters is because they were born into Bhai Sahibs sangat and grew up in his sangat.

2. Majority of the newbies who have come to be associated with the Jatha in the past 40 years till date. Find not doing simran in keertan as very abnormal. Because a perception has consolidated that it IS a must in keertan.

3. Quite a number of Keertani Singhs don't do dhunni in keertan in India. They rarely get keertan time- hence less known. This doesnt mean they dont exist.
Bhai Hardial Singh-Gurdaspur
Bapoo Harbhajan Singh & his brother(Bh. Surjeet Singh)
Late Bh. Mohinder Singh

4. The reason we "sing" gurbani keertan is because the human mind in sensative to music & records it even. The fickle wondering human mind easily comes into attention of Gurbani when keertan is done. Its a honeytrap set by SatGuroo Nanak Dev jee.
Hukam of naam is to be ceaseless and continous, till when do we plan to keep "singing" naam abhiyaas?
Because Gurbani uses the term "ath pehar"(24/7)

5. Another issue is, those who develope the habbit of singing "naam". Find sitting alone with eyes closed and meditating for prolonged periods as exteremely boring or painful even, as a matter of fact many never become abhiyaasis because singing naam is the only way the have known.

Chota veer

Daas tried to refrain from this discussion as rigid lines are drawn from each side but compelled me to write something. Opinions on both sides may be correct but I think real issue is not the Dhunni but something else.

In short, if we divide discussion into two parts then it will be easy to understand the real issue.

a) First one is just singing aloud word ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ as Gurbani roop. For example:

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥ ... ਸਤਿ ਸਾਚੁ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਨਿਵਾਸੁ ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਸਦਾ ਤੁਹੀ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥1॥6॥ (Panna 1402)

and Vaar Bhai Gurdaas Jee

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਗੁਰਮੰਤ੍ਰ ਹੈ ਜਪਿ ਹਉਮੈ ਖੋਈ॥

Who can stop a Kirtantiya singing above. You can repeat Shabad (word) ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ million times in Sangat. It's open and accessible to all. I don't think there is an issue with this.

b) Second one is Dhunni of ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ as Gurmantar roop (Vidhi Poorbak). For example Saas Griraas Vidhi given by Guru Roop Panj.

From Jatha point of view, the repetition of word ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ date back to Bhai Sahib's time but not Dhunni. Although Bhai Sahib never did repetition of word ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ nor openly recited Dhunni in his Keertan but other Kirtaniyas in his time did start repetition of word ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ.

There are some recordings where Bhai Jeevan Singh did do recitation of word ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ during Keertan but not Dhunni.

There are two issues associated with Dhunni during Keertan:

1) When Keertanyia try to do Dhunni (Vidhi Poorbak) in open Sangat, what happens is Ucharan of ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ Shabad is heard differently by non-Amritdharis/non-Naam Drrir Sangat. Daas heard of people who have not received Gurmat Naam are understanding the Ucharan as HEEGUROO, HEGUROO or something else. Inherently they do Ucharan like that. Since the Ucharan is changed hence it is considered as an insult to Gurbani. If one has to repeat the word ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ then make sure it's Ucharan should be clear. Many prominent Keertaniya of Jatha including Bhai Jeevan Singh Jee, Talwara Jee and others just did the simple recitation of word ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ wherever they felt necessary to do so.

2) Today, issue in general is many Kirtanyias (including non-kirtani like this neech) without developing/attaining a higher Avastha start doing SAAS GIRAAS SIMRAN openly. For example, when they are doing the Keertan of this or similar Shabads such as:

ਹਰਿ ਰਸੁ ਪੀਵਹੁ ਭਾਈ ॥ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਹੁ ਨਾਮੋ ਆਰਾਧਹੁ ਗੁਰ ਪੂਰੇ ਕੀ ਸਰਨਾਈ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

This Shabad states we should come to Guru Di Sharan, do Naam Jap Naam Aradhan to have Har Ras. As Bhai Kulbir Singh has mentioned that Sangat in Gurduara includes both Amritdharis and non-Amritdharis. Now when the Kirtaniya starts the Dhuni of Gurmantar, he or she is intentionally having non-Amritdharis, who are not authorized by the True Satguru (Since they didn't come into Sharan of Guru Sahib by having Naam Daan), to chant Naam, is against Gurmat. Why against Gurmat, because Kirtaniya start taking the place of Guru to do Naam Drrirh. That is why most Puratan Singhs stay away from doing intentional Dhunni during Kirtan.

Is there a solution?

Yes, there are couple of solutions which Daas thinks can alleviate the issue at larger extent.

As an individual one should focus for stronger Amritvela and all day long Naam Abhyiaas.
Since Sangati Keertan and Naam Abhiyaas is also important, reinstating the KHANDA Rein Sabais can play vital role in Chradi Kala. Where only Naam Abhyisaasi get together and do KHANDA KHADKAEE all night long w/o any hesitation (NISANG).

Whether Dhuni is good or not, but no one does Dhunni as good as AKJ. When a non AKJ jatha does Dhunni, for some reason it's just not the same.

VJKK VJKF

I cannot believe this topic is being discussed openly, let's not take as far and as close to doing nindyia of Gursikhs please , as if we end up doing that i.e by comparing " so and so did this and so so did that" - very immature way to back up the case. Then all what YOU have done will also get lost due to the nindyia. I beg you guys to close this topic as soon as possible for your own benefit to save the naam Gurbani abyiaas you have done.

Going back to the topic - Veer Jasjit Singh's reply is most fitting where he mentions:

a) First one is just singing aloud word ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ as Gurbani roop. For example:

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥ ... ਸਤਿ ਸਾਚੁ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਨਿਵਾਸੁ ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਸਦਾ ਤੁਹੀ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥1॥6॥ (Panna 1402)

and Vaar Bhai Gurdaas Jee

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਗੁਰਮੰਤ੍ਰ ਹੈ ਜਪਿ ਹਉਮੈ ਖੋਈ॥

Who can stop a Kirtantiya singing above. You can repeat Shabad (word) ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ million times in Sangat. It's open and accessible to all. I don't think there is an issue with this.


As for keertnia doing dhunee - it does not mean at all they have given naam drir to non amrit dhari's at all - who ever wants naam drir still have to go the PANJ for it no matter where they read about naam drir or hear naam drir. - Come on guys how many times has naam drirr and the amrit ceremeony been discussed openly on forums worldwide. One still has go don't they and untill they don't they are not Khalsa. However I agree keertanyia should not do dhuni but continue to do naam abyaass with pyar and sehaj not so fast where the average human being cannot even recite Waheguru.

And as a final note - Naam - Gurbani abyhiaaas is important - however just as important is how one speaks, attitude to others,refraining from any form of nindyia, refreaining from being over weight in over eating lust of taste, refraining from greed when at work, refraining from looking and being attached to anything materialistic in this world such as your iphone, internet, twitter, facebook, doing parupkaar spending time doing seva at a Gurdwara without any desire, being responsible and tyar per tyar to help anyone at anytime on righteous and truthful living - without all this self policing we will never do justice to the naam and Gurbani abyiaas we talk about so much. Please advise if I am wrong.