Bhai Maharaj Singh's Prophecy...

WaheguruJiKaKhalsa,
WaheguruJiKiFateh Guru Pyareo,

[www.sikhiwiki.org]

Bhai Maharaj Singh Jio is a truly inspiring Sikh Saint, who was detained in dark, and dingy cell till His death ji.
He was revered by Tamils, Muslims...to this day ji..article is by Justice Choor Singh Jio...note Bhai Sahib prophecy about another national war by Sikhs leading to victory...is it war that is by Maharaj Ranjit Singh, or another upcoming ji?
bhul chuk muaf

WaheguruJiKaKhalsa,
WaheguruJiKiFateh

When I read about Gurmukhs, with much kamai and much high avastha, contracting disease, I fall into doubts.

I just read that when Bhai Maharaj Singh ji was confined to a dark and dingy prison room his health deteriorated. He got severe joint inflammation. Its also written that in his last days his tongue was so swollen that it was difficult to swallow.

Its easy to understand the physical reasons of why his body got this. I am myself struggling a bit with joint inflammation and pains. A huge part of the problem is the food we eat, which is acid forming. All the grains, the proteins are incompletely digested. When toxins which are produced as a by product of our digestive process are not completely eliminated from our body they settle in our body tissue and cause disease, inflammation and tissue damage. The best way to tackle is to predominately eat greens, and light satvic diet which does not include much proteins. To do liver cleansing and to give rest to the digestive system by sometimes skipping meals. In today's world we understand all this, and we have a lot of food choices and we can somehow manage arthiritis. But Bhai Maharaj Singh ji did not have so much choice in his prison days. So one can understand how disease came about.

I can understand 'how', but I cannot understand 'why'. Why did a tongue which recited so much baani and naam get diseased? Clearly Gurbani says that Hari Naam cleans away all diseases:

ਜਪਿ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਜਪਿ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਮੇਰੈ ਮਨਿ ਭਾਇਆ ਰਾਮ ॥
ਮੁਖਿ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਮੁਖਿ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਜਪਿ ਸਭਿ ਰੋਗ ਗਵਾਇਆ ਰਾਮ ॥
ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਜਪਿ ਸਭਿ ਰੋਗ ਗਵਾਇਆ ਅਰੋਗਤ ਭਏ ਸਰੀਰਾ ॥
ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਸਹਜ ਸਮਾਧਿ ਹਰਿ ਲਾਗੀ ਹਰਿ ਜਪਿਆ ਗਹਿਰ ਗੰਭੀਰਾ ॥
ਜਾਤਿ ਅਜਾਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਿਨ ਧਿਆਇਆ ਤਿਨ ਪਰਮ ਪਦਾਰਥੁ ਪਾਇਆ ॥
ਜਪਿ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਜਪਿ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਮੇਰੈ ਮਨਿ ਭਾਇਆ ॥੩॥

(SGGS, ang 574)

So how should we reconcile this with what Bhai Maharaj Singh ji went through?

Try avoiding milk, and climbing as many stairs as possible, eyes academic jio, and joint pain will go away.
As for how Bhai Maharaj Singh Jio suffered sarir ailments, even Bhai Randhir Singh Jio's suffered same dark, and dingy cell confinement...that Christian pastor could not tolerate for even an hour...and Bhai Maharaj Singh endured worst due to extreme cruelty by then British Indian government ji.
If you read Jail Chittian, you will note that cruel conditions was so severe that when Bhai Randhir Singh Jio let himself get distracted from Naam, he suffered setbacks...and bone disease from long cell confinement ji..
As Justice Choor Singh Jio did not provide details of what other cruelty Bhai Maharaj Singh Jio went through, Waheguru only knows ji...
My ardas to Waheguru is why He let His Saints suffer so much for sins of manmuks ji..

Yes, I understand that long unhealthy confinement is a cause for disease. As I said I understand how disease came about. So this is not the problem.
The point in question is that Gurbani says that Naam and Gurbani removes diseases. And this has been said to be a natural effect of Naam. It has not been said that disease goes away only when asked for.
We read Gurbani, and we still have diseases, BUT in our case it can be said that our mind is not yet reached a higher plane, it has not been filled with Naam, our concentrations are only fleeting and superficial, therefore Naam and Gurbani has not yet shown its divine effect. In cases of Gurus and Saints who have common, healthy lifestyle, it is sometimes said that they take bad karmas of others upon themselves. But what about cases like Bhai Maharaj Singh ji? What factors were working? Why did disease occur? Of course we know that prison conditions were material cause, but should not Gurbani/Naam have countered that? Should we take that Gurbani does not remove disease in every case? Why should a tongue which recites Naam all the time get cancer? How does this come about?

We are also aware that there have been cases where diseases WERE removed as an effect of Naam/Baani. But what is the complete explanation? Why does it happen sometimes and sometimes it does not? Why do people who have done nitnem all there lives contract disease? If it be said that it happens only when mind elevates to a higher plane, a higher avastha then why did this not happen in Bhai Maharaj Singh ji's case?

I think this is a very important issue which needs to be understood properly. If even saints have disease the what is the hope for ordinary people like me? I consider myself educated enough to tackle and manage disease with the knowledge available all around us in present times. BUT what about the spiritual aspects, what about Naam/baani?

Waheguru, Bhai Kulbir Singh will be the Gurmukh to know ji.
I am just a manmukh, who is convinced that as Bhai Maharaj Singh Jio, and Bhai Randhir Singh Jio, got distracted from bhagti to pursue freedom struggle, they got affected with ailments of sarir...like I let my mind do to me...thus from no health issue whatsoever to now needing surgical removal of wisdom tooth, which does not hurt any longer but I assume causing my right eye to swell. I strongly believe my health issues is due to my weak rehit ji.
If you read about other Saints who only focus on bhagti, and strict rehit, never suffer diseases ji.

Nothing to be surprised about. Sometimes Bhagats go through physical pain through disease, torture or because of some accident yet remain in Chardikala. They could use their Shakti to cure themselves of the disease or pain, yet they chose to live in the sweet Bhana of Vaheguru. Such Gurkmukhs who go through this much hardship, inspire future generation of Sikhs to remain strong in Sikhi despite any physical pains. This is what differentiates a Sikh from a non Sikh. A non-Sikh will complain to God by saying "My, My God why have you forsaken me?" but a Sikh will be inspired by numerous examples of other Gursikhs and say to God "Tera Bhana Meetha Lagay".

Singh1699 ji,

I am not surprised at the fact of disease afflicting a human body. Of course we already know that bhagats and sants do contract disease. And yes we do agree that they have shakti to cure themselves IF they wish so. But curing oneself by explicit desiring or praying to Waheguru for the same and Waheguru accepting the prayer is a separate and different concept. The concept I am presenting is different. What I am trying to understand is the meaning of Gurbani lines such as the ones I quoted earlier:

ਜਪਿ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਜਪਿ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਮੇਰੈ ਮਨਿ ਭਾਇਆ ਰਾਮ ॥
ਮੁਖਿ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਮੁਖਿ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਜਪਿ ਸਭਿ ਰੋਗ ਗਵਾਇਆ ਰਾਮ ॥
ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਜਪਿ ਸਭਿ ਰੋਗ ਗਵਾਇਆ ਅਰੋਗਤ ਭਏ ਸਰੀਰਾ ॥
ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਸਹਜ ਸਮਾਧਿ ਹਰਿ ਲਾਗੀ ਹਰਿ ਜਪਿਆ ਗਹਿਰ ਗੰਭੀਰਾ ॥
ਜਾਤਿ ਅਜਾਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਿਨ ਧਿਆਇਆ ਤਿਨ ਪਰਮ ਪਦਾਰਥੁ ਪਾਇਆ ॥
ਜਪਿ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਜਪਿ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਮੇਰੈ ਮਨਿ ਭਾਇਆ ॥੩॥

There are so many lines in Gurbani similar to these above. Import of these lines is that as a natural/divine side-effect of Naam all the diseases vanish. So what should we infer from such lines?

One way of explaining these is that Gurmukhs have Shakti to get cured of disease if they wish to. That seems to be correct but that is not what these lines are saying. It is not being said that Gurmukhs have the power to get cured. Neither is being said that when Gurmukhs ask/request Waheguru their diseases shall vanish. That is entirely different concept. What is being said is that as a result of Naam jaap, all the diseases have vanished. It has been expressed that this happens as a natural, divine side-effect. This natural, divine side-effect is what I am trying to understand.

You see, there are other concepts in Gurbani where we believe in the straight meaning of the lines in quite an uncompromising manner. For example the concept of Dharamraaj and his Dargah and the punishments given to Jeev by Dharamraaj. Many modern Sikhs believe that such concepts should be taken to be as metaphors only and that there is no actual Dharamraaj anywhere. But as you know many traditional Gurmukhs, especially AKJ believe that Gurbani should be taken to be true word to word.

In the same manner, it should be believed that alleviation of disease is a natural divine side-effect of Naam/Gurbani. I would like to believe so. But then how do we explain that incidents when Brahmgiani Gurmukhs do contract disease? For example Sant Atar Singh ji Mastuana did get a big cancerous boil on his shoulder. There are other examples too. How do we explain this in light of Gurbani?

One way is as I mentioned earlier: that saints take negative karmas of the sangat upon themselves. But is that true in every case? What about the case of Bhai Maharaj Singh ji, who was revered as a 'karniwale' mahapurakh?

ks Ji, Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh Ji was a brahamgyani, if he wanted to alleviate his physical dukh, he could in an instant, he chose not to. He didn't want an iota of his karam to go along with him.
He did not lack Bhagti, and if you read jail chithiyaan with deeper analysis, one is convinced that Bhai Sahib was in Bhagtil each moment without any distraction.

I agree Gurudefined ji,
I am referring to when someone brought Bhai Sahib Jio a shaster, and Bhai Sahib himself stated that he got distracted momentarily ji...

Here is photo of Bhai Maharaj Singh Jio.
[www.sikhs.org.sg]
I would like to clarify that the distraction I mentioned of Bhai Randhir Singh Jio is not worldly ji...He was focused on shaster to prepare for what he knew was upcoming ji...my humble apologies for not being able to quote page ji.

But now I understand why Sikh Saints endure all...thanks Gurudefined Jio.

eyesacademic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Singh1699 ji,
>
> I am not surprised at the fact of disease
> afflicting a human body. Of course we already know
> that bhagats and sants do contract disease. And
> yes we do agree that they have shakti to cure
> themselves IF they wish so. But curing oneself by
> explicit desiring or praying to Waheguru for the
> same and Waheguru accepting the prayer is a
> separate and different concept.


Guru Harikrishan jee had small pox ? - no ? there are sakhis of Mahapuraks can take on disease and eradicate if they want to ? who is to know their ways only they know such truths - there is no way me or you will ever find out my friend - no way especially on the web.

>
> One way is as I mentioned earlier: that saints
> take negative karmas of the sangat upon
> themselves. But is that true in every case? What
> about the case of Bhai Maharaj Singh ji, who was
> revered as a 'karniwale' mahapurakh?

I agree here - however there is no way we can deduce here to anything at all . Maharaj's ways are beyond understanding - "ant naah japee kyiaaa munn munt""

ns44 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> eyesacademic Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Singh1699 ji,
> >
> > I am not surprised at the fact of disease
> > afflicting a human body. Of course we already
> know
> > that bhagats and sants do contract disease. And
> > yes we do agree that they have shakti to cure
> > themselves IF they wish so. But curing oneself
> by
> > explicit desiring or praying to Waheguru for
> the
> > same and Waheguru accepting the prayer is a
> > separate and different concept.
>
>
> Guru Harikrishan jee had small pox ? - no ? there
> are sakhis of Mahapuraks can take on disease and
> eradicate if they want to ? who is to know their
> ways only they know such truths - there is no way
> me or you will ever find out my friend - no way
> especially on the web.
>
My friend, I don't think its not worth my while to ask on here. When you read Bhai Randhir Singh ji's book do you not get many concepts clarified? And when some mahapurakh's written or oral views are shared over here, do not others get a better understanding? Is there a difference between reading printed material and reading on web? Can not it be that some mahapurakh has written something that I have not read and somebody over here, maybe you or Kulbir Singh ji has read and he/she can share it with us? Why are you thinking that such things cannot be understood on web?

This query is just a query about understanding the meaning of a Gurbani concept and its implications in real life. Thats it. I am not asking about a personal experience of Sachkhand and description of it.

Please try to understand clearly what I am asking. I shall rephrase my query here: Gurbani clearly says as a natural/divine side-effect of Naam/baani the body gets cured of all diseases. Now this can be taken to 4 things:

1. Its just a metaphor. All Guruji is saying is that Naam/Baani is great. No disease actually gets cured. There is no divine/natural side-effect.
2. Its partially or conditionally true. Sometimes diseases go away, just sometimes.
3. Its partially or conditionally true. All the realised saints have the power to remove their and others' diseases. But they do so rarely and let nature take its own course.
4. Its completely but conditionally true. Naam/baani always cures all diseases. The only condition is of mind completely immersing itself in Naam/baani.

In case of no 1, if we take this concept as metaphorical the problem then arises that how do we say that Dharamraj is real? In both cases there are some incidents to prove the concept true, but its not ample and consistent proof.

In case of no 2, 3 we are saying that Naam/baani does not have the natural side-effect of disease eradication in ALL the cases. In this way we are indirectly saying that Gurbani does not mean exactly what it says.

In case of no 4 we can believe that Gurbani means exactly what it says, but the problem is of explaining the empirical evidence.

So which of the above should we take as an explanation? Case on hand is of Bhai Maharaj Singh ji.

Uptil now all I have is that Gurmukhs take on negative karm of others for alleviation of general human suffering. But is there a Gurbani pankti to back this belief?

eyesacademic Wrote:

> Please try to understand clearly what I am asking.
> I shall rephrase my query here: Gurbani clearly
> says as a natural/divine side-effect of Naam/baani
> the body gets cured of all diseases. Now this can
> be taken to 4 things:
>
> 1. Its just a metaphor. All Guruji is saying is
> that Naam/Baani is great. No disease actually gets
> cured. There is no divine/natural side-effect.
> 2. Its partially or conditionally true. Sometimes
> diseases go away, just sometimes.
> 3. Its partially or conditionally true. All the
> realised saints have the power to remove their and
> others' diseases. But they do so rarely and let
> nature take its own course.
> 4. Its completely but conditionally true.
> Naam/baani always cures all diseases. The only
> condition is of mind completely immersing itself
> in Naam/baani.
>
> In case of no 1, if we take this concept as
> metaphorical the problem then arises that how do
> we say that Dharamraj is real? In both cases there
> are some incidents to prove the concept true, but
> its not ample and consistent proof.
>
> In case of no 2, 3 we are saying that Naam/baani
> does not have the natural side-effect of disease
> eradication in ALL the cases. In this way we are
> indirectly saying that Gurbani does not mean
> exactly what it says.
>
> In case of no 4 we can believe that Gurbani means
> exactly what it says, but the problem is of
> explaining the empirical evidence.
>
> So which of the above should we take as an
> explanation? Case on hand is of Bhai Maharaj Singh
> ji.
>
> Uptil now all I have is that Gurmukhs take on
> negative karm of others for alleviation of general
> human suffering. But is there a Gurbani pankti to
> back this belief?


The most absurd thing about your questions is that you are ignorant of previous karms in previous janams - and previous kamai of previous janams.
How can you ever know that sir?? answer that one first.
One may have to go thru God knows how many janams to get to a certian state - or one may have to go through certain punishing karms which clarifies their next janam.

First thing that must be understood and accepted before talking about the application of Naam Avkhad to different scenarios is that Guru Sahib has made it clear that Naam and Gurbani cures all diseases be that of the body or mind. We must blindly accept this truth from Gurbani.

Next thing that needs to be understood is that our diseases are a result of previous Karams and we cannot know the extent of our disease. We may suffer from a certain disease for a few years and then may not see symptoms of it again, but it could be that the disease is going to follow you to your next life to make you suffer again. The system of Karams is very complex and has many different factors involved, for a better understanding it is recommended to read Gurmat Adhiyatam Karam Philosophy from Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh jee.

Now there are two different types of scenarios that we have to consider. First is for the regular Gursikhs who are still aspiring towards Brahmgyan and are just starting to apply Gurbani and Naam to their lives and are still in the system of Karams. The second is those Gurmukhs who have already reached Brahmgyan and are free from Karams and Janam Maran.

In the first case lets say Gursikh A does regular amount of Bhagti and keeps good Rehit. Due to some previous Karams Gursikh A gets some chronic ailment and starts doing some extra paath for this to go away. Firstly we must realize that due to the Bhagti and Rehit this Gursikh is already keeping, the ailment they got is significantly less than what they would have gotten if they had not been doing Bhagti. It could be that this would have been their time to die, but due to them keeping Rehit and doing regular amount of Bhagti Guru Sahib lessened the Karams into just a chronic ailment so they can continue to do Bhagti.

Next thing to consider is that Gursikh A is doing a lot of Gurbani Paath and Naam Abhiyaas for this ailment to go away. Based on how big the Karam is and how much Dhiyan and amount of Bhagti is being done for this to go away will effect the rate at which this ailment will go away. We are blind to how big the Karam is so we should continue to have faith in Guru Sahib and continue to use Naam and Gurbani to cure ourselves.

In the second case of the Gurmukhs who have reached Brahmgyan and are still having some disease it is important to note that the Gurmukhs are not suffering at all. They are in Anand of Naam and Gurbani and the pain that is being inflicted on their bodies does not reach them at all and their avastha is not changed by it. They accept Guru Sahib's bhana and take on this ailment for the betterment of others and to teach us how to accept Bhana. A Brahmgyani is not tied down by Karam and is able to change anything at will but this is the show of how amazing they are that even while having all the power of the universe they still remain humble and take Ras of Bhana.

For them it is the same as when Brahmgyani Bhai Taru Singh jee had their scalp removed. They did not have to suffer this torture before Shaheedi because of their Karams, and they had all the power to stop it if they wanted by doing a miracle and breaking their chains. But they did Kurbani for the Panth to flourish and they showed an even bigger miracle by turning their Kesh into Sarbloh.

This is just my humble understanding of how disease is cured by Naam. Hopefully other Gursikhs can shed more light.

Preetam Singh

ns44 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> The most absurd thing about your questions is that
> you are ignorant of previous karms in previous
> janams - and previous kamai of previous janams.
> How can you ever know that sir?? answer that one
> first.
> One may have to go thru God knows how many janams
> to get to a certian state - or one may have to go
> through certain punishing karms which clarifies
> their next janam.

So why don't you tell me about past karams and why don't you explain its connection with meaning of Gurbani Panktis I quoted? I am NOT asking absurd questions. If my questions are absurd why did Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh write so much about Gurbani's deeper concepts? How can it be wrong to ask about these things on a gurmat forums?

Lets talk about previous karams. What exactly are you trying to say? Are you saying that when previous negative karams have been removed to a certain degree only then Naam/Gurbani would alleviate the diseases? Is this what you are saying?

In 'Gurmat Adhyatam Karam Philosophy' Bhai Sahib ji has made it clear that Karam do not have any power on their own, its Sahib's Hukam that lends satta to these karams and He can do whatever he likes. Naam is infinitely greater than any Karam. You should know this. Gurbani says:

ਕੋਟਿ ਬਿਘਨ ਹਿਰੇ ਖਿਨ ਮਾਹਿ
So does this mean that this happens only when past negative karams have run their course? Do you see the absurdity of your own assertion?

In a common person's spiritual journey when Naam/Baani has not fully flowered in the mind, it would be okay to say
> One may have to go thru God knows how many janams
> to get to a certian state - or one may have to go
> through certain punishing karms which clarifies
> their next janam.

But I am not discussing common people. I am asking about Mahapurakhs, in whose case Naam/Baani has made them Brahmgyani.

NS44 ji, I find your attitude not only very negative but quite condescending and snobbish. You do not wish to indulge in the discussion, not do you wish to clarify any concept in a sincere manner, yet you continue to give sneering responses. If you find my query 'absurd' then stay away from it. I did not force you to join it.

I am raising this issue because it has troubled me since very long. If somebody over here can add value to the discussion it will be great, if nobody know any further than already brought forth, then so be it! The discussion shall end. Whats the problem in that?

Eyesacademic ji,
FAITH CAN MOVE MOUNTAINS ACCORDING TO GURBANI, SO YOU HAVE TO HAVE FAITH IN POWER OF NAAM, GURBANI ji...
lashing out at Mahapurakhs (ns44) is going to add to your karam ji...even lashing out at non-mahapurakhs causes backfire, as I have experienced ji.
Try to address your health issues as I do mine with healthy living choices (totally no pre-processed food, raw food...even if you have to end up consuming tasteless food ji)....walk away from stressful situations (why I do not hold secure income...strongly practice, "when the going gets tough, the tough gets going.."), and if you are like me, with regards to depressing monotonous winter weather, move jio! Winter makes trees also suffer ji...
Only our soul is real, and all else is fiction, but until we achieve that blessed avastha...read Bandaginama ji.
Waheguru kirpa karey...

[gurmatbibek.com]

read above post eyes academic ji.
I used to have severe migraines that caused my face to swell, etc. Good physician advised me to monitor when migraines triggered, and avoid situations...very effective to this day...
Power of Waheguru Naam worked miracle when I yelled out loudly when almost attacked by German shepherd, and another worst experience, where I almost lost my life ji..
Also, I recently discovered even when you leave Gurbani path ongoing on CD while you sleep, the subconscious mind soak in Jewel Gurbani...as my mind woke me up next day with replaying Gurbani Jio...

Please note the tough gets going attitude only weakens one's soul, so I advise caution on this foolish advise..

FORCEFUL LOUD NAAM ABHIYAAS JIO!...
LIKE IN FOLLOWING VIDEO JI...
[m.youtube.com]

Preetam Singh ji,

Thank you for your post. I agree with your view that mahapurakhs do not feel any bodily dukkha in their minds, therefore even if disease is there, they are not really affected by it.
I also find it very agreeable that mahapurakhs might contract or even invite disease upon themselves so that they can teach us to how to remain in bhaana.

Ks ji,

I do not wish to argue with ns44 ji. He thinks my query is 'absurd' and that such matters cannot be discussed on this forum. I do not think so. My query pertains to understanding of basic gurbani concepts and it can very well be answered by someone who understands the concept himself/herself.

Anyways; moving forward:

Secondly, KS ji you have rightly suggested that having faith in gurbani cures diseases. That is not the issue here. Please understand. I too believe that having faith and reading gurbani does cure disease. But that is NOT what is being asked for clarification.

Let me first clarify what I am NOT asking:

1. I am NOT asking whether Naam/Gurbani can cure diseases: I already believe, through my personal readings, and through getting to know others' experiences that Naam/Gurbani DOES cure diseases. So please understand, this is NOT the issue being asked for clarification.

2. I am NOT asking whether Brahmgyani purakhs can cure diseases if they wish so. I already believe that they can do so. This is easily seen in biographies of various Mahapurakhs. So please this is NOT the question either.

My query is:

Does fruition of Naam/baani have a divine side-effect of curing bodily diseases, even if they are NOT expressly desired for? Thats whats I am asking. And if the answer is yes, then how do we explain diseases in case of people who have been accepted as brahmgyanis?

My own idea was that perhaps mahapurakhs take on negative karams of other people, lay or gursikhs, and in this way they help out humanity.

Preetam Singh ji has suggested that they might do so to set and example for us to accept waheguru's bhaana. He has also suggested that even though mahapurakhs' body might contract disease but they themselves are always in Anand. I find both ideas as appealing.

But I am still hopeful that more can be understood and said on the issue.

Pritam Singh ji, thanks once again for taking time to write up on the issue.

eyesacademic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ns44 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > The most absurd thing about your questions is
> that
> > you are ignorant of previous karms in previous
> > janams - and previous kamai of previous janams.
> > How can you ever know that sir?? answer that
> one
> > first.
> > One may have to go thru God knows how many
> janams
> > to get to a certian state - or one may have to
> go
> > through certain punishing karms which clarifies
> > their next janam.
>
> So why don't you tell me about past karams and why
> don't you explain its connection with meaning of
> Gurbani Panktis I quoted? I am NOT asking absurd
> questions. If my questions are absurd why did Bhai
> Sahib Randhir Singh write so much about Gurbani's
> deeper concepts? How can it be wrong to ask about
> these things on a gurmat forums?

I tell you of past karams - mate I have no authority to do so. You're taking my answer to being absurd in a wrong concept - i meant absurd when you ignore karms - (very very complex ) there is no black and white answer here my friend.

>
> Lets talk about previous karams. What exactly are
> you trying to say? Are you saying that when
> previous negative karams have been removed to a
> certain degree only then Naam/Gurbani would
> alleviate the diseases? Is this what you are
> saying?
>
no i am not -- Naam/Gurbani is of benefit regardless of what karms we have.

> In 'Gurmat Adhyatam Karam Philosophy' Bhai Sahib
> ji has made it clear that Karam do not have any
> power on their own, its Sahib's Hukam that lends
> satta to these karams and He can do whatever he
> likes. Naam is infinitely greater than any Karam.
> You should know this. Gurbani says:
>
> ਕੋਟਿ ਬਿਘਨ ਹਿਰੇ ਖਿਨ
> ਮਾਹਿ
> So does this mean that this happens only when past
> negative karams have run their course? Do you see
> the absurdity of your own assertion?

I have read that book too and in it Bhai sahib mentions "Gur ka shabad katee kot karm" - I see absurdity when we some how do certain about of naam and expect results (that is the absurdity i see coming from your context).. Thing is we read in Japji "nanak bhgata sada vigaas" -- those mahapuraks always in anad no matter what -- secondly "thitheaa bhagat vaseee kee looh" - in that world akal bhgats are countless - their naam simran is countelss without a clock that we look up to which says 2.5 hours are up for nitem lets cool down. How can we know sahib's hukham on karms on us?

There is a sakki of a Gursikh about 30 years ago - I know of some akj singhs who did sangat of this Gursikh - mahan kamyaee he had- however his singhnee used to criticise the Gursikhs all the time coming over doing naam/kieertan etc. One day singhs asked him why does your singhnee criticise so much we are ony doing naam/gurbani kamai - he turned around and said one day she will shoot me to death so be prepared. Singhs were alarmed as to how do you know this. He said in my previous life she was a cow stuck in river full of mud in the middle - while i was sadhu type person and i saw her suffering and a thought had come across my mind to pull her out - but i left her there and just walked by - She drowned died at that spot. Now she is back as my wife in this life to take revenge and she will shoot me me to death one day.. And a year so later this is exatcly what happened - she shot her naam/abhyassi husband to death.

So veer jee i feel it absurd how do we find out such truths about our previous janams - mahraj reveals to Gursikhs of high avastha but they are also duty bound not to tell either however in some rare cases they do as in the above example.

>
> In a common person's spiritual journey when
> Naam/Baani has not fully flowered in the mind, it
> would be okay to say
> > One may have to go thru God knows how many
> janams
> > to get to a certian state - or one may have to
> go
> > through certain punishing karms which clarifies
> > their next janam.
>
> But I am not discussing common people. I am asking
> about Mahapurakhs, in whose case Naam/Baani has
> made them Brahmgyani.
>

fair point i may have misunderstood you here.

> NS44 ji, I find your attitude not only very
> negative but quite condescending and snobbish. You
> do not wish to indulge in the discussion, not do
> you wish to clarify any concept in a sincere
> manner, yet you continue to give sneering
> responses. If you find my query 'absurd' then stay
> away from it. I did not force you to join it.

Thanks for your assertions of my attitude please do ardas for me that i may improve it going forwards.

>
> I am raising this issue because it has troubled me
> since very long. If somebody over here can add
> value to the discussion it will be great, if
> nobody know any further than already brought
> forth, then so be it! The discussion shall end.
> Whats the problem in that?

There is no problem veero - I feel you need to read more lives of Gursikhs as do i.

Finally I agree 100% with Preetam Singh jee's response. Any further repsonses here would be excellent for learning

ਜਪਿ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਜਪਿ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਮੇਰੈ ਮਨਿ ਭਾਇਆ ਰਾਮ ॥
ਮੁਖਿ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਮੁਖਿ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਜਪਿ ਸਭਿ ਰੋਗ ਗਵਾਇਆ ਰਾਮ ॥
ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਜਪਿ ਸਭਿ ਰੋਗ ਗਵਾਇਆ ਅਰੋਗਤ ਭਏ ਸਰੀਰਾ ॥

What does it mean by ਸਭਿ ਰੋਗ? If you say all diseases of all kinds then please provide any Gurbani shabad that considers physical disease as a real “rog”. No doubt Gurbani can cure physical diseases but what types of diseases are truly considered to be the real diseases? Physical, spiritual or both?

The pankti says “ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਜਪਿ ਸਭਿ ਰੋਗ ਗਵਾਇਆ”. It means to me (I could be wrong) that a Gurmukh eliminated his diseases by doing naam japp. It seems that literally it refers to physical as well as spiritual diseases. However, if Gurbani does not consider physical disease to be a real disease then it would only target spiritual diseases by default. An enquiry needs to be made here. Once again, I believe Gurbani has the power and can cure all physical diseases. But I think disease, sorrow etc. are subjective and relative terms. What I consider to be a dukh or rog does not mean it is also a rog or dukh for a brahmgyani. Consider this for example:

ਸਭੇ ਇਛਾ ਪੂਰੀਆ ਜਾ ਪਾਇਆ ਅਗਮ ਅਪਾਰਾ ॥ (੭੪੭)

ਸੁਨਿ ਉਪਦੇਸੁ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਬਸਾਵਹੁ ॥ ਮਨ ਇਛੇ ਨਾਨਕ ਫਲ ਪਾਵਹੁ ॥੫॥ (੨੯੩)

In both shabads it is being said that all desires of those are fulfilled who obtain God and keep the teachings of Guru within their heart. “All desires” are again relative to the person and don’t necessarily include worldly desires otherwise every brahmgyani would be richer than Bill Gates. Further, if a true Sikh has worldly desires even after obtaining God then how is he a true Sikh to begin with and how was he able to obtain God despite having worldly desires? Then what makes him any better than an ordinary human who is not above his base desires? The pankti says ਮਨ ਇਛੇ so if one’s mind does not have the desire for money and wealth despite being physically poor then we shouldn’t blame Naam for it. True Sikhs do have desires but those are much different than what we consider as desires. Similarly, what true Sikhs consider true ਰੋਗ are different than ours because whereas we think fever, blood pressure, cancer etc. Sikhs think of separation from Waheguru, transmigration, worry, five thieves etc., as real ਰੋਗ.

Should we conclude from the panktis that all the worldly desires of an ordinary human like having money, wealth, property etc. will be fulfilled once God is obtained? No doubt money and wealth can be obtained and are readily available to serve true Sikhs if they so desire but they don’t consider them to be real wealth and hence have no such desire to begin with. If it is not a desire then how can it be fulfilled? Similarly, if physical ailment is not considered a real disease by a true Sikh then how do you expect it to get cured? It might be a real disease for someone like me but not for a Sikh. Also, how can Sikhs accept and live in bhana in that case?

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਹੋਵੈ ਸੁ ਭਾਣਾ ਮੰਨੇ ਸਹਜੇ ਹਰਿ ਰਸੁ ਪੀਜੈ ॥ (੧੨੪੬)

I think as one reaches higher avastha he is put to severe tests and hardships so that his life can serve as a role model for others and their supreme sacrifice, utmost dedication and steadfastness to their religious lifestyle despite having physical hardships become an inspiration for others to become encouraged to keep fighting for truth regardless of physical hardships. Without such instances how do we get inspired? How would we even have history? How can common people get inspired and take active role in freedom struggle? If brahmgyanis don’t contract physical diseases then ordinary humans will say that they are not brahmgyanis and hence cannot fight and endure hardships and they will fight only when they know all of their diseases have been eliminated.

I do not think physical disease and hardships for brahmgyanis are due to their past karma every time. Most of the time, it serves as a role model for people like us so that we keep chanting Naam regardless of physical conditions and we learn how to truly accept bhana and become real Gurmukhs. So when gursikhs suffer physically it is for us to learn something from not because Naam failed to do its work. All these diseases can be eliminated by doing naam japp and doing Ardaas but if Naam is supposed to take care of it all without every asking then the whole concept of Ardaas gets eliminated and Naam is reduced to pure mantra repeating practice to obtain something worldly or desire worldly happiness.

Just to add a last note, I fully believe Gurbani cures everything and all hardships. When an ordinary human starts to do simran, he has desires and they do get fulfilled but as he gets higher, he forsakes such worldly desires and starts to accept bhana. Then his desires change. His viewpoint of the world changes and just like desires, he focuses on different diseases rather than wasting his kamayee in curing physical diseases. I apologize for being repetitive. These are just my opinions. Only true Sikhs know the real answer. Guru Rakha

Waheguru dhan dhan Jio! Waho Waho Guru Pyareo! Lakh Lakh Lakh dhanvat Jio...what will become of world if Gems like you all did not share your wisdom, so andley like myself could understand only our mind is diseased when it is in dark, animal level

Bijla Singh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ਜਪਿ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਜਪਿ ਹਰਿ
> ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਮੇਰੈ ਮਨਿ
> ਭਾਇਆ ਰਾਮ ॥
> ਮੁਖਿ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਮੁਖਿ
> ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਜਪਿ ਸਭਿ
> ਰੋਗ ਗਵਾਇਆ ਰਾਮ ॥
> ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਜਪਿ ਸਭਿ
> ਰੋਗ ਗਵਾਇਆ ਅਰੋਗਤ ਭਏ
> ਸਰੀਰਾ ॥
>
> What does it mean by ਸਭਿ ਰੋਗ? If you
> say all diseases of all kinds then please provide
> any Gurbani shabad that considers physical disease
> as a real “rog”. No doubt Gurbani can cure
> physical diseases but what types of diseases are
> truly considered to be the real diseases?
> Physical, spiritual or both?

Gurbani mentions both mental and physical ailments as rog. Haumai has been referred to as rog, Chinta has been referred to as rog as well as others. Along with this physical ailments have also been mentioned as rog. Its not possible to say which is which in every use of the word rog. But this much is clear that both has been referred to. For example

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਜਪਿ ਸਭਿ ਰੋਗ ਗਵਾਇਆ ਅਰੋਗਤ ਭਏ ਸਰੀਰਾ ॥

another

ਆਪਹਿ ਮੇਲਿ ਲਏ ॥ ਜਬ ਤੇ ਸਰਨਿ ਤੁਮਾਰੀ ਆਏ ਤਬ ਤੇ ਦੋਖ ਗਏ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
ਤਜਿ ਅਭਿਮਾਨੁ ਅਰੁ ਚਿੰਤ ਬਿਰਾਨੀ ਸਾਧਹ ਸਰਨ ਪਏ ॥
ਜਪਿ ਜਪਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਤੁਮ੍ਹ੍ਹਾਰੋ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਮ ਤਨ ਤੇ ਰੋਗ ਖਏ ॥੧॥
(SGGS, ang. 829)

another
ਖਸਮੁ ਵਿਸਾਰਿ ਕੀਏ ਰਸ ਭੋਗ ॥ ਤਾਂ ਤਨਿ ਉਠਿ ਖਲੋਏ ਰੋਗ ॥

and

ਨਾਮੁ ਬਿਸਾਰਿ ਕਰੇ ਰਸ ਭੋਗ ॥ ਸੁਖੁ ਸੁਪਨੈ ਨਹੀ ਤਨ ਮਹਿ ਰੋਗ ॥੩॥

and another:

ਦੂਖ ਰੋਗ ਭਏ ਗਤੁ ਤਨ ਤੇ ਮਨੁ ਨਿਰਮਲੁ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਗੁਣ ਗਾਇ ॥

Here in Sukhmani Sahib we are advised that we should remember Waheguru, with whose prasad our bodies are healthy:

ਜਿਹ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ਆਰੋਗ ਕੰਚਨ ਦੇਹੀ ॥ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਵਹੁ ਤਿਸੁ ਰਾਮ ਸਨੇਹੀ ॥


Both physical and mental diseases are important. When one has a thorn in one's feet, it has to be dealt with even if its not going to kill the person. Its the mind which needs to become shaant and then immerse in bhagti. But its often the case (though not always) that when body is afflicted by disease mind cannot concentrate on bhagti. And this is a common fact of life. Let me take a common everyday example: in modern day sedentary life style, in middle age and after that diseases of digestive system affect majority of the population, constipation and gas trouble people a lot. Most of the people who suffer from these would know that when the body is not clean from inside, its difficult to concentrate one's mind and feel relaxed. The importance of cleansing one's body has been accepted in Sikhi. No one can continue with bhagti for long if one is continuously afflicted with these particular problems I mentioned.

On the other hand, there are diseases which sometimes are helpful for the mind to come into bhagti mood. Sometimes in fever one's mind becomes very humble and can pray to Waheguru in a wonderfully surrendering way. It all depends upon how a particular disease affects the mind.





> What I consider to be a dukh or rog does not mean
> it is also a rog or dukh for a brahmgyani.

Yes, most certainly. Its easy to see that when one's mind is in bliss it would be easy to ignore the body's discomfort and pain.

>
>
> In both shabads it is being said that all desires
> of those are fulfilled who obtain God and keep the
> teachings of Guru within their heart. “All
> desires” are again relative to the person and
> don’t necessarily include worldly desires
> otherwise every brahmgyani would be richer than
> Bill Gates.


The situation is different that the case of diseases. It has been said that desires are fulfilled. If there are no desires then how does their fulfillment come into question? But the removal of disease has not been made dependent, it has been shown as an automatic, natural, divine side-effect.

On another note, a Brahmgyani would not have any desire, but a gurmukh at a lower plane, can certainly have a desire. And his desire would be fulfilled, even money wise.

There is nothing wrong with having legitimate desires. Gurbani endorses such desires:

ਧੰਨਾ ॥ ਗੋਪਾਲ ਤੇਰਾ ਆਰਤਾ ॥
ਜੋ ਜਨ ਤੁਮਰੀ ਭਗਤਿ ਕਰੰਤੇ ਤਿਨ ਕੇ ਕਾਜ ਸਵਾਰਤਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
ਦਾਲਿ ਸੀਧਾ ਮਾਗਉ ਘੀਉ ॥ ਹਮਰਾ ਖੁਸੀ ਕਰੈ ਨਿਤ ਜੀਉ ॥
ਪਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੀਆ ਛਾਦਨੁ ਨੀਕਾ ॥ ਅਨਾਜੁ ਮਗਉ ਸਤ ਸੀ ਕਾ ॥੧॥
ਗਊ ਭੈਸ ਮਗਉ ਲਾਵੇਰੀ ॥ ਇਕ ਤਾਜਨਿ ਤੁਰੀ ਚੰਗੇਰੀ ॥
ਘਰ ਕੀ ਗੀਹਨਿ ਚੰਗੀ ॥ ਜਨੁ ਧੰਨਾ ਲੇਵੈ ਮੰਗੀ ॥੨॥੪॥



> Should we conclude from the panktis that all the
> worldly desires of an ordinary human like having
> money, wealth, property etc. will be fulfilled
> once God is obtained? No doubt money and wealth
> can be obtained and are readily available to serve
> true Sikhs if they so desire but they don’t
> consider them to be real wealth and hence have no
> such desire to begin with. If it is not a desire
> then how can it be fulfilled?

Yes, when there is no desire, the fulfillment does not come into question.

> Similarly, if
> physical ailment is not considered a real disease
> by a true Sikh then how do you expect it to get
> cured?

Well simply because there is evidence that Gurbani does consider physical disease as significant enough to use it to remind us of waheguru. Gurbani tells us that since we are healthy as a prasad of Waheguru, therefore we should remember Waheguru. Gurbani also mentions that when we forget Waheguru, physical diseases arise in the body and that when Naam is indulged in, these go away.


>It might be a real disease for someone like
> me but not for a Sikh. Also, how can Sikhs accept
> and live in bhana in that case?
>
> ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਹੋਵੈ ਸੁ
> ਭਾਣਾ ਮੰਨੇ ਸਹਜੇ ਹਰਿ
> ਰਸੁ ਪੀਜੈ ॥ (੧੨੪੬)
>

I beg to disagree here. A Sikh does not reach the highest spiritual plane just by becoming a true Sikh. Not every true Sikh is Brahmagyani. A Sikh is a person who walks the path of Gurmat. A Brahmgyani is one who has reached the destination. There is a difference. Being a Sikh does not mean that his/her mind would never be affected by outer situations or bodily disease.


> I think as one reaches higher avastha he is put to
> severe tests and hardships so that his life can
> serve as a role model for others and their supreme
> sacrifice, utmost dedication and steadfastness to
> their religious lifestyle despite having physical
> hardships become an inspiration for others to
> become encouraged to keep fighting for truth
> regardless of physical hardships. Without such
> instances how do we get inspired? How would we
> even have history? How can common people get
> inspired and take active role in freedom struggle?
> If brahmgyanis don’t contract physical diseases
> then ordinary humans will say that they are not
> brahmgyanis and hence cannot fight and endure
> hardships and they will fight only when they know
> all of their diseases have been eliminated.

I fully agree. And this is one of the ideas, I think, is the reason behind the all the Shaheedis.

Eyes academic ji,
When I took Amrit, I was told I will have to be up at time Guru Sahib wakes me. But as I have not kept up with this major rehit, along with food rehit, living amongst Gursikhs...I struggle with not being peaceful in my mind, biggest rog, and as I failed food rehit, body ailments, Amritvela, and mostly love for Guru Sahib affected ji.

I personally find it best to interpret Gurbani in an uncompromising way. When Gurbani says that Naam/Bhagti automatically removes diseases, I would interpret it exactly like this.

It also makes sense, if one thinks of it. Human body has been praised because Naam resides in it. And it seems apt that diseases leave and are not able to enter the body.

I would guess that when mind centres in itself and indulges in Naam/bhagti, the subtle energy which is wasted by mind flickering from moment to moment in conserved and this very soon would build up a huge reservoir of subtle energy. This energy now flows into the body in a healing and protective way, a kind of divine immune system, which protects the body. Of course this is just my imagination.

As far as Brahmagyani purakhs are concerned, I would say that taking on negative karma of others and increasing sukh all around, setting example of staying in bhana, setting example for generations to come can all be the reasons. There could be other reasons too, especially some specific to individual cases.

Salok of Sri Japji Sahib Jio reminds..
Jini Naam Dhiaia ...should be contemplated seriously ji...
Also, my manmukh mind says Gurbani advises again, and again to live amongst SAT SANGAT...then GURBANI, NAAM TRUTH FLOURISHES ji..no diseases of any kind, as SAT SANGAT JOT ATTAINED JODHARIA...