Basics Of Sikhi Vs Dawah Man

Thank you for posting that video.
Our Veerji from Southall has done a good job in arguing with the Muslim

Shabash to this wonderful gursikh (I hope he doesn't get the terrible haumai from reading this praise)

We need more down to earth humble gursikhs nowadays in jatha. We are drifting away from the basics/practical sikhi and becoming more knowledgable. Sikhi is all about be nice and loving. Both beginners and highly knowledgable gursikhs can learn from this basicsofsikhi channel as sometimes we need to be reminded of the fundamental basics of sikhi - vin gun bhagat na hoi

The gursikhs responses were perfectly the gurmat way which was to not insult islam. Guru Sahib did the same. The greatness of sikhi doesn't need to be shown be ridiculing the obvious flaws in other religions (this should be last resort only). Sikhi is just too great in itself. The fact is the writings in the koran is said to have been revealed by an angel. I don't know how that equals a revelation from god. Also koran was written much after prohet mohammed passed away.

Bhai Sahib mentions the feelings (bairaag, love) which is felt during bhagti. This is good but it's only the basics which every sikh should have as a minimum. Members of other religions also experience this. However the divine bliss in sikhi is most high and beyond imagination (the super bright prakash of waheguru, literally drinking the amrit from within with each breath which is called naam russ in gurbani and many other things)

Very good discussion. The Singh countered him in every way and all his answers were so full of Gurmat. Not too long ago I also had a discussion with a Muslim trying to do Dawa which I posted on this forum here:

[gurmatbibek.com]

Discussions and literature on this website are a treasure of knowledge. One can learn so much especially from Singhs like Kulbir Singh Jee, Sukhdeep Singh Jee, Bijla Singh Jee and all the others here.

I loved the video and the gursikh vir comes across as a very balanced and educated person who can handle such situations. My respects and salutations.
There is a view point which I wish to convey. When a muslim comes to us and says that look here are 10 words from Quran and there are 40 rhetorical devices used in these and these are inimitable, does your Gurbani have such things, and thus prove it to be a work of God; we should keep these following things in mind:

How Gurbani is different from Quran

Gurbani is NOT similar to quran. Whatever little I know about quran seems to tell me that Allah is giving commands in first person. But in Gurbani Waheguru ji does not use Guru ji's words as a vehicle to convey first person speech from Waheguru ji himself.
Gurbani is:
- Divine verses which have the highest status. The status is such that by connecting with Gurbani:
-- one can connect, receive and immerse in Naam
-- ones mind gets purified and clear. There remains no fear, no desire, only pristine brahmgyan
-- ones surti is always internally engrosses in Naam and praises of Waheguru
-- All the energy chakras of the body get purified. The highest Position of Dasam Duar is obtainedand surti can easily go there and indulge in inexpressible, agam, agaadh Anand.
- This Anand CANNOT be obtained ANYWHERE, from ANY Religion , from ANY Ritual, from any meditation
- Gurmukhs ultimately are accepted into Sachkhand. Sachkhand cannot be reached into by ANY religion, ANY meditation ANYTHING Else.
- one can worship and praise Waheguru and Gurus
- one can reduce and remove the bad karmas of countless past lives, just like a small flame can burn up wood of any size.

- Divine verses uttered by Gurus, Bhagats and Gursikhs.
- These verses have come down from Sachkhand. The minds which uttered these words are the minds who have walked the path of Naam bhagti, who have rooted out the 5 doots, and have become one with Naam. And Waheguru used these minds to send Gurbani from Sachkhand to us.

Gurbani has been deliberately chosen by Waheguru to be in a common man's language to that masses can understand and connect with it. Gurbani does not try to impress the Gursikh by rhetorics and poetry. Even an illiterate like Bhagat Kabir ji can attain Sachkhand through Bhagti. Its not the verbal body of Gurbani which makes Gurbani important and second-to-none. Its the fact that Gurbani has the Guru-Shakti inside it.

So here is another point. Gurbani is gurbani because it contains Guru-Shakti. Guruship has been conferred to Gurbani from Sachkhand. It has not been bestowed upon by any human. And it does not matter what 'shareer' or verbal system Gurbani has taken.

There is no rhetorics involved in the word WAHEGURU and yet this word is not just a word it is vertitable Waheguru himself!

SO what I am trying to say is:

Instead of trying to counter the muslim guy that we the sikhs also have great rhetoric in Jaap Sahib or Mool mantar, we should simple reject the argument of rhetorics as being a proof os quran being Allah originated.

Remember: The basic difference between Indian religions and Semitic religions is that we believe in experiencing and attaining Waheguru. We also believe in micro-level experience, rom-rom, swas-swas. The semitic religions do not have any such approach. They believe in praying and remaining subservient. Any mental transformation they claim to or try to achieve is nothing compared to Naam-simran and Naam-Adhyatmic-Anubhav.

When the Muslim brother talks about the objective challenge that the Muslims use to judge the Quran and asking for our Veer to prove that Guru Granth Sahib jee is sent by Vaheguru. He is saying that the Quran is linguistically superior because it cannot be mimicked by anyone else because of the way it is written.

It would have been good if our Veer had brought up Gurbani Viyakaran, because Gurbani is so much more linguistically superior to any other writing because it is perfect in all ways. Guru Sahib uses to much genius that every Pankti follows the rules of poetry while using words from many different languages and still being perfectly grammatically sound. Gurbani Viyakaran is the miracle that cannot be mimicked.

Preetam Singh

When the Muslim boy mentions Quran is more superior in poetry then Gurbani he is wrong. Gurbani has dozens of Poetic/rhetorical devices in just one pauri,and there could have been more but Gurbani is meant to be sung in Sangat for this reason there is less poetic devices as too many poetic devices would lead to an imbalance of chhands making it difficult to sing. The Quaran cannot be sung the way Gurbani is Sung because there is not a perfect balance of chhands in the Quaran only Gurbani has a perfect balance because Gurbani comes from Sri Sach Khand the place where kirtan is never ending. ,

His claim that the Quaran has 40 rhetorical devices in 10 words is false. We are sure the Arabic which is written in Quaran has many rhetorical devices as the Arabic language by nature has many rhetorical devices , but Its impossible for one word to have more then two devices so how can each word have four? When asked by Jugraj SIngh to give an example he stayed quite. All of the quaran verses put together cannot equate to one verse of Sri Guru Gobind Singh Jis " Zafarnama".

Now the Thurk has posted his own version of the video and his herd has already started to howl.

chardee kala - i know veer jee well - on a mission -- wicked

It’s appalling of the comments I read on the other version (muslim version). You only have to look at them to see the truth. Good luck to the Gursikh; he’s doing a great job and also handled the situation well.

Somebody needs to tell these muslim guys, 'Dude, rhetorics is just play on words and meanings. We do not care for plays on words and meanings. We care about Waheguru's Naam and and reaching Waheguru through Naam. Thats it. Now do away now and stop wasting our time.'

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

Sigh...go read the Qua'ran and then go read Sahib Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. World of difference. The objectives are different, the focus is different, the content is different. Funny thing is that the extremist Muslims of the UK have spent more time trying to convert and prove others are inferior to Islam than actually practicing their faith. Like the East London long bearded Bana wearing Muslims...who drug deal - I am thinking this may not be an ideal occupation for a Muslim. The UK has already been overwhelmed by extremist Muslims and they are on a campaign to convert every and each person in the UK (and eventually Europe and then the world) to Islam.

Whatever...their hatred for the West is uniting them now, but if Islam does again gain dominance, they will self destruct with internal factional Sunni vs. Shiite vs. whatever other group, as it has been in the past. Hatred, lying, deceit, and cunning will not be the foundation upon which to build a religion - if it is, it will eventually turn inwards and eat away at its own foundation.

Debates like this (meaning as instigated with Dawah Man - Singh simply defended himself and his faith) will go on forever and are useless because their basis is to make the other faith look smaller, not to actually achieve anything spiritually. Sikhs should remain firm in their faith, be solid representatives of Sikhi to the world and arm themselves to the teeth for the eventual day that our faith will be under attack again.

Otherwise, it is like Giani Pinderpal Singh says in his katha: there are only two things you can do with a Moorakh per Gurbani - either don't fight with him/her (Moorkhai Naal Na Loojiai) or break his/her face (Moorakh Gand Pavai Mooh Maar). In between debates, discussions, pleasentries will be of no avail.

For those who have youtube accounts, please post this on the dawah's version of the vid;

Dawah man is using clever trickery to hide the atmosphere of the discussion by digitally zooming in on singh sahib at certain points. Why couldn't he just post an unedited version like Bhai Sahib did? Call for the unedited video to be uploaded because this hides the defeatist emotions of dawah man at many points in the so called discussion.

As I mentioned in my post reply to this post previously (but obviously censored because it was not posted),
if Qur'an is so superior in its literary language...this is haumai, maya on their part, and that is all it is jio!
the divinity is not aroused in Muslims, which is why their Qur'an does not stop their souls from knowing it is wrong to kill innocent...in the name of jihad!?

ms514 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH
>
> Sigh...go read the Qua'ran and then go read Sahib
> Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. World of difference.
> The objectives are different, the focus is
> different, the content is different. Funny thing
> is that the extremist Muslims of the UK have spent
> more time trying to convert and prove others are
> inferior to Islam than actually practicing their
> faith. Like the East London long bearded Bana
> wearing Muslims...who drug deal - I am thinking
> this may not be an ideal occupation for a Muslim.
> The UK has already been overwhelmed by extremist
> Muslims and they are on a campaign to convert
> every and each person in the UK (and eventually
> Europe and then the world) to Islam.
>

true

> Whatever...their hatred for the West is uniting
> them now, but if Islam does again gain dominance,
> they will self destruct with internal factional
> Sunni vs. Shiite vs. whatever other group, as it
> has been in the past. Hatred, lying, deceit, and
> cunning will not be the foundation upon which to
> build a religion - if it is, it will eventually
> turn inwards and eat away at its own foundation.
>
dont' agree in entirely - as they already have about 50-60 countries in the world and they have all fought each other big time - its' already eating at their foundation and continue to do so.

> Debates like this (meaning as instigated with
> Dawah Man - Singh simply defended himself and his
> faith) will go on forever and are useless because
> their basis is to make the other faith look
> smaller, not to actually achieve anything
> spiritually.

not useless- fruitful - as SGGS philosphy is million years ahead of time and SIkhs following it will always do well in the debate as diD Bhai sahib jee here on youtube.

Sikhs should remain firm in their
> faith, be solid representatives of Sikhi to the
> world and arm themselves to the teeth for the
> eventual day that our faith will be under attack
> again.
>

at presnet we neeed to not only arm to the teeth but also to the brain so we can challenge these individuals all the time. Our learning can never stop.

> Otherwise, it is like Giani Pinderpal Singh says
> in his katha: there are only two things you can
> do with a Moorakh per Gurbani - either don't fight
> with him/her (Moorkhai Naal Na Loojiai) or break
> his/her face (Moorakh Gand Pavai Mooh Maar). In
> between debates, discussions, pleasentries will be
> of no avail.

apologies i dont see the muslim in this video as a moorakh but someone learned in their thought process looking for clarification however i forgive me if i am wrong

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

Jio...he is not looking for clarification. He faced a Sikh who gave him answers and put on the defensive. Go to England and you will see what a lot of these types of folks are up to. Their aim is to confuse you and promote the "clarity" of their faith, while attempting to point out inconsistencies in your faith. His kind make websites like these:

-----admin cut------ - another website practicing Dawah. Read this and tell me it doesn't make your blood boil.

This is not about anything spiritual for the majority of these preachers - it is a gang mentality, numbers game in which the religion with the largest number of followers win. This is also not about those spiritual Muslims that, through following the Qua'ran, are attempting to fulfill a life of spiritual kamai.

ms514 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH
>
> Jio...he is not looking for clarification. He
> faced a Sikh who gave him answers and put on the
> defensive. Go to England and you will see what a
> lot of these types of folks are up to. Their aim
> is to confuse you and promote the "clarity" of
> their faith, while attempting to point out
> inconsistencies in your faith. His kind make
> websites like these:
>
> -----admin cut------ - another website practicing
> Dawah. Read this and tell me it doesn't make your
> blood boil.
>
> This is not about anything spiritual for the
> majority of these preachers - it is a gang
> mentality, numbers game in which the religion with
> the largest number of followers win. This is also
> not about those spiritual Muslims that, through
> following the Qua'ran, are attempting to fulfill a
> life of spiritual kamai.


I am already in ENGLAND sir and now exactly what they are about - and its' the exact reason for their continued failure as a ideaolgy.

Do not even let them approach u jio,
I had many Christian missionaries do same...reply to them I am in hurry, passionate about my belief, then start telling them about your beliefs, without giving them a chance to interrupt, and they actually leave after one or two long paras about Sikhi jio...focus on Guru Sahib with ardas for replies to come from Him ji..never fails to gain control of conversation...

Guru Pyareo jio,
bing or google..dawah on his way to Canada..be sure to engage him in correcting himself for saying he won the discussion in proving Gurbani is not ultimate Truth ji..please read his comments on you tube video.
Veerjio Bhai Kulbir Singh should be ideal person to handle this sewa ji..
blessed Gurmukhs should avoid looking in eyes or let them look at yours ji..
bhul chuk muaf..
Waheguru

Dawah Man's YouTube account has been terminated while Singh's account lives on forever!

Boley So Nay Haal, Sat Sri Akal!!
but he is still at it on Facebook ji, google or Bing dawah man...

bhul chuk muaf Waheguru

And he announced his current presence in Scarborough, Canada ji

His account is only temporarily suspended and will be back in 2 weeks

I think Bhai Jagraj Singh did a wonderful job in this discussion. What it comes down to is that he exhibited the confidence to successfully defend Sikhi against Islamic propaganda. We definitely need more like him and such discussions should take place more. Bhai Jagraj Singh is being proactive and such quality is hard to find these days. What would be great is if Sikhs learn from this video to improve their debating skills and come up with better arguments and answers to counter Islam. Guru Sahib kirpa karan.

Veer Jee had Guru Maharaaj's kripa throughout the discussion.

That chap is really stuck in 10 words 40 rhetorical devices.

He is asking for similar proof from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee Maharaaj. Had we such audio video recording devices in olden time then we could have recorded the katha done by Sant Baba Attar Singh Jee in which he did katha alone on "EK" for 40 days. Then this guy would have come to know how many rhetorical devices the "EK" alone has that it took 40 days to do vichaar on EK itself.

What is need of 10 word 40 rhetorical devices when for a Sikh one shabad is limitless
ਏਕੁ ਸਬਦੁ ਮੇਰੈ ਪ੍ਰਾਨਿ ਬਸਤੁ ਹੈ ਬਾਹੁੜਿ ਜਨਮਿ ਨ ਆਵਾ ॥੧॥

He went on to the extent of saying "lets see how the Koran fits into the definition of Miracle". Now, what is left there to say when he is trying to fit his holy Koran's divine message into man made words like miracle. Not a true seeker but only the one who call themselve philosopher will only try to fit divine messages in definitions.

The correct thought process will only trigger when one listens to true Guru.
ਮਤਿ ਵਿਚਿ ਰਤਨ ਜਵਾਹਰ ਮਾਣਿਕ ਜੇ ਇਕ ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਸਿਖ ਸੁਣੀ ॥

Bhul Chuk Maaf.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa,
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh.

40 Rhetorical Devices In Quran