Difference between JAAP and SIMRAN?

Vahiguroo ji ka Khalsa Vahiguroo ji ki Fateh ji!

Can anyone please explain the difference between 'JAAP' and 'SIMRAN'?

And can someone elaborate the video in the given link about the same topic?

[www.youtube.com]

Dass
Harleen Singh

Bhai Sahib the video seems confusing and some what misleading. Its best to stay free from videos by this group as they have some very strange and unorthodox beliefs. Look at the following video for example which promotes chanting their own mantra on Pooranmashi for maximum benefit. .
[www.youtube.com]


In Gurbani there is no difference between Simran and Jaap as both refer to japping Gurmat Naam. In Gurbani there are many words that refer to Japping Gurmat Naam the few which I can think of are simro, jap, jaap, bhajo, dhivao, etc and they all mean the same thing. . Giani Harbans Singh Ji has mentioned Jaap ( w/ kanna) refers to Japping naam with the tongue while jap ( w/out kanna) refers to japing Naam with tongue and surat. Personally I don't agree with this as to me Jaap and Jap mean the same thing in Gurbani. Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Ji has written a book on the subject of Naam Jaap called " Gurmat Naam Abhyiaas Kamaee" if you read this book all questions on Simran and Jaap will be explained clearly and in detail.

Simran literally means remembrance and Jaap means to chant. Having said that, here are some points with respect to Jaap and Simran:

1. Every Jaap must include Simran but every Simran does not include Jaap. When doing Jaap, Simran i.e. the remembrance of Naam in Surti has to be done but when doing purely Simran in Surti, then tongue or Hirda is not engaged, hence absence of Jaap.
2. Jaap can be done with tongue and Hirda and pure Simran is done exclusively in Surti without the aid of the body.
3. In one of Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh jee's books he has distinguished between Jaap and Simran saying that Jaap can be done with tongue or Hirda but Simran is done exclusively in Surti. Will try to find the exact passage.
4. Doing Jaap with Hirda can only be known to Gursikhs who do Abhyaas with Gurmat Swaas-Giraas Jugti.
5. ਬਿਨੁ ਜਿਹਵਾ ਜੋ ਜਪੈ ਹਿਆਇ ॥ ਕੋਈ ਜਾਣੈ ਕੈਸਾ ਨਾਉ ॥2॥ - This Pankiti alludes towards Swaas Giraas Abhyaas done purely with the use of Hirda.

ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਪਰੇ ਤੋਂ ਪਰੇ।

Kulbir Singh

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2. Jaap can be done with tongue and Hirda and pure Simran is done exclusively in Surti without the aid of the body.
3. In one of Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh jee's books he has distinguished between Jaap and Simran saying that Jaap can be done with tongue or Hirda but Simran is done exclusively in Surti. Will try to find the exact passage.

Bhai Sahib if simran can only be done with surti alone and Simran cannot mean Jaap in Gurbani then what about the following pangti.


ਮਰਤ ਘਰੀ ਚਸਾ ਪਲੁ ਸਿਮਰਨ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮੁ ਰਸਨਾ ਸੰਗਿ ਲਉ ॥

Professor Sahib Singh has translated the end as ਜੀਭ ਨਾਲ ਰਾਮ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ ਸਿਮਰ।

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Bhai Sahib if simran can only be done with surti alone and Simran cannot mean Jaap in Gurbani then what about the following pangti.


ਮਰਤ ਘਰੀ ਚਸਾ ਪਲੁ ਸਿਮਰਨ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮੁ ਰਸਨਾ ਸੰਗਿ ਲਉ ॥

Professor Sahib Singh has translated the end as ਜੀਭ ਨਾਲ ਰਾਮ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ ਸਿਮਰ

Sorry for not being clear in my previous post. I did mention that Simran is there in Jaap i.e. when tongue and hirda is involved but if tongue and hirda are not involved, then Simran alone can be done in Surti.

In the above Pankiti that you quoted, there should be a Bishraam after ਸਿਮਰਨ and the meaning is - do Simran every Moorat, Ghari, Chasa and Pal; take Raam-Naam with Rasna. The meaning of Professor Sahib Singh seems to be wrong because when the verb ਲਉ is there, why is he using the verb ਸਿਮਰ from outside? In Punjabi the meaning of the last half of the Pankiti is ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਰਸਨਾ ਨਾਲ ਲੈ ਭਾਵ ਰਸਨਾ ਵਰਤ ਕੇ ਰਾਮਨਾਮ ਕਹਿ।

Having said that, as far as we humble Gursikhs are concerned, there is no need to distinguish between Jaap and Simran. Whether Hirda, tongue or Surtee, our duty is to do Naam Simran Abhyaas. The above post was just written in response to the question asked in this thread.

Kulbir Singh

.ਮਹੂਰਤ ਮਾਤ੍ਰ, ਘੜੀ ਭਰ, ਚਸਾ ਮਾਤ੍ਰ ਜਾਂ ਪਲ ਭਰ ਹੀ ਰਾਮ ਦਾ ਸਿਮਰਨ ਕਰ, ਜੀਭ ਨਾਲ ਰਾਮ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ ਸਿਮਰ। - Professor Sahib Singh

The translation provided by Professor Sahib Singh Ji seems like Simran is a Delhi Deepak, and Ransa is a noun in karan karak which is connected to the verb Simran Perhaps Professor Sahib is viewing ਲਉ as an intransitive verb.I don't fully understand why Simran cant be a dehli Deepak in this pangti and why cant it be a verb connected to the noun Rasna ( karan karak)?

If possible can you provide the quote which Bhai Sahib says Simran cant be done with tongue. My simple understanding is that even when simran goes automatically with the mind immersed in naam the tongue is still japing naam effortlessly .

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The translation provided by Professor Sahib Singh Ji seems like Simran is a Delhi Deepak, and Ransa is a noun in karan karak which is connected to the verb Simran Perhaps Professor Sahib is viewing ਲਉ as an intransitive verb.I don't fully understand why Simran cant be a dehli Deepak in this pangti and why cant it be a verb connected to the noun Rasna ( karan karak)?

If you want to use Simran as Dehli Deepak in this Pankiti, then please do the Arth in Punjabi to show how you will do so. Do bear in mind that you must also include ਲਉ in the meaning. In the presence of the verb ਲਉ, it would be hard to use Simran as well. Second problem is that in this Pankiti the word ਸਿਮਰਨ is a noun. Then how will you do the meaning of this word as verb?

Yes, I will try to find Bhai Sahib's quote where he distinguishes between Jaap and Simran.

Kulbir Singh

Professor Sahib Singh has already given a translation with simran as a verb and a Dehli Deepak as ਮਹੂਰਤ ਮਾਤ੍ਰ, ਘੜੀ ਭਰ, ਚਸਾ ਮਾਤ੍ਰ ਜਾਂ ਪਲ ਭਰ ਹੀ ਰਾਮ ਦਾ ਸਿਮਰਨ ਕਰ, ਜੀਭ ਨਾਲ ਰਾਮ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ ਸਿਮਰ।

The verb is not included in the translation but its self implied that we take the tongue ( karan Karak) and use it to the simran of Naam. The meaning would be with the tongue do naam simran night and day .

If simran had a comma then it would be two separate sentences . The meaning would be as you say do simran with the surat all day. Then the next sentence would say do simran with the tongue. Two me these two pangtis would have no sequence unlike the meanings given by Professor Sahib SIngh .

My simple understanding is when Sri Guru Jis gives us Hukum to medidtate/chant naam he tells us to meditate/jaap naam according to Gurmat Vidhi. I don't believe Sri Guru ji tells us on some occasions to jaap naam with just surat or on other occasssions to jaap naam with hirda and tongue. One will jaap naam according to their level, but the instruction to jaap/meditate on Naam is only one.

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Professor Sahib Singh has already given a translation with simran as a verb and a Dehli Deepak as ਮਹੂਰਤ ਮਾਤ੍ਰ, ਘੜੀ ਭਰ, ਚਸਾ ਮਾਤ੍ਰ ਜਾਂ ਪਲ ਭਰ ਹੀ ਰਾਮ ਦਾ ਸਿਮਰਨ ਕਰ, ਜੀਭ ਨਾਲ ਰਾਮ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ ਸਿਮਰ।

I have already read Prof Sahib Singh jee's meaning and after reading that I asked you questions but instead of answering the question, you have rewritten Prof jee. My simple question to you is as to why are you using "Simran" as a verb when in this Pankiti clearly the verb ਲਉ is listed. How can you ignore the Pargat verb and use some other verb instead? If ਲਉ had the same meaning as Simran, I would understand but ਲਉ is a verb and Simran is a noun.

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The verb is not included in the translation but its self implied that we take the tongue ( karan Karak) and use it to the simran of Naam. The meaning would be with the tongue do naam simran night and day .

I too have stated in one of my previous posts that for us Jaap and Simran all means to do Naam Abhyaas. The point highlighting the difference between Jaap and Simran was raised due to the question posted by the original poster. ਰਸਨਾ ਨਾਲ ਰਾਮਨਾਮ ਲੈ ਭਾਵ ਕਹਿ । ਸਿਮਰਨ ਭਾਵ ਯਾਦ ਤਾਂ ਸਦਾ ਹੀ ਜਾਪ ਵਿਚ ਹਾਜ਼ਰ ਰਹਿੰਦੀ ਹੈ।

In any case, this is not a Maryada issue. Whether Jaap or Simran, we ought to do it all the time. I will soon find the quote from Bhai Sahib's book that distinguish between Simran and Jaap.

Kulbir Singh

I ap0logize in advance but i reckon we are making a big meal out of nothing here.

Jaap - is the first initiation with the tougue - 1st journey of naam

Jaap with Pyaar - is the second stage it has to be done with pyaar without bhavan and prem jaap would not be frutiful later.

After doing immense jaap with pyarr - simran will at some stage become automatic - simran is yaad - and yaad cannot come without jaap with pyaar in the first instance.

Final - stage would be focus would come natuarlly as in Japji "suniyaa lagee sehaj dhuyiaan" of simran with pyar - all a game of surt shabad.

"I have already read Prof Sahib Singh jee's meaning and after reading that I asked you questions but instead of answering the question, you have rewritten Prof jee. My simple question to you is as to why are you using "Simran" as a verb when in this Pankiti clearly the verb ਲਉ is listed. How can you ignore the Pargat verb and use some other verb instead? If ਲਉ had the same meaning as Simran, I would understand but ਲਉ is a verb and Simran is a noun."

We cannot understand how Simran here is a noun? Verb refers to action being performed and its clear here Simran is the verb. Why is it not possible for a pangti to have two verbs?

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We cannot understand how Simran here is a noun? Verb refers to action being performed and its clear here Simran is the verb. Why is it not possible for a pangti to have two verbs?

Gursikh veer, I can't think of any Pankiti where the word Simran can be a verb. The verb form of this word is Simar. Unless, one gets clear understanding of what a verb is and what a noun is, there is no point in discussing intricate Gurbani related principles. It's difficult to continue this discussion in the absence of understanding of most basic and fundamental grammatical terms.

Kulbir Singh

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Gursikh veer, I can't think of any Pankiti where the word Simran can be a verb. The verb form of this word is Simar. Unless, one gets clear understanding of what a verb is and what a noun is, there is no point in discussing intricate Gurbani related principles. It's difficult to continue this discussion in the absence of understanding of most basic and fundamental grammatical terms.

Kulbir Singh

Singho , it clear from Professor Sahib Singh Jis who is the master of Gurbani Viakaran that Simran here is a verb.

ਮਹੂਰਤ ਮਾਤ੍ਰ, ਘੜੀ ਭਰ, ਚਸਾ ਮਾਤ੍ਰ ਜਾਂ ਪਲ ਭਰ ਹੀ ਰਾਮ ਦਾ ਸਿਮਰਨ ਕਰ, ਜੀਭ ਨਾਲ ਰਾਮ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ ਸਿਮਰ। Professor Sahib Singh JI

Yes, simran by itself is a noun, but when the word Kar is gupt in the pangti then it makes it a verb.

As long as we both agree that SImran and Jaap mean one and the same thing theres nothing left to say on this point.

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Singho , it clear from Professor Sahib Singh Jis who is the master of Gurbani Viakaran that Simran here is a verb.

ਮਹੂਰਤ ਮਾਤ੍ਰ, ਘੜੀ ਭਰ, ਚਸਾ ਮਾਤ੍ਰ ਜਾਂ ਪਲ ਭਰ ਹੀ ਰਾਮ ਦਾ ਸਿਮਰਨ ਕਰ, ਜੀਭ ਨਾਲ ਰਾਮ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ ਸਿਮਰ। Professor Sahib Singh JI
.

Even Prof Sahib Singh is not doing the Arth of Simran as a verb in the line above. The verb in his line is ਕਰ. Simran still is a noun. If someone says "Bhai Naam jap", then the word "Naam" does not become a verb but "jap" is the verb there. Same way in "Simran kar", the word "Simran" is a noun and "Kar" is a verb.

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Yes, simran by itself is a noun, but when the word Kar is gupt in the pangti then it makes it a verb

Very astonishing statement. I am not sure where you are learning all these new Viyakaran rules. Totally an erroneous statement as per Gurbani Viyakaran. I strongly suggest that Gurbani Viyakaran should be learned from Gursikhs and not by self-study alone.

Kulbir Singh

Sukhdeep Singh ji,

Lets take some sentences:

ਰਾਮ ਸੇਬ ਖਾ
ਰਾਮ ਕਿਤਾਬ ਪੜ੍ਹ
ਰਾਮ ਸਿਮਰਨ ਕਰ

In these sentences the blues are nouns and reds are verbs. This is simple mistake which is often made.

eyesacademic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sukhdeep Singh ji,
>
> Lets take some sentences:
>
> ਰਾਮ ਸੇਬ ਖਾ
> ਰਾਮ ਕਿਤਾਬ ਪੜ੍ਹ
> ਰਾਮ ਸਿਮਰਨ ਕਰ
>
> In these sentences the blues are nouns and reds
> are verbs. This is simple mistake which is often
> made.

100% spot on beautiful

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Sukhdeep Singh ji,

Lets take some sentences:

ਰਾਮ ਸੇਬ ਖਾ
ਰਾਮ ਕਿਤਾਬ ਪੜ੍ਹ
ਰਾਮ ਸਿਮਰਨ ਕਰ

In these sentences the blues are nouns and reds are verbs. This is simple mistake which is often made.

Thanks Bhai Sahib for clearly pointing out the differences. Now I know why I failed grammar in school, haha. But I still agree with Professor Sahib Singh that the pangti is referring to doing simran with tongue.