I have lost faith in God

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh,

I am an ex-Sikh who became an atheist because I couldn't reconcile my belief in God with rationality. I did not part from Sikhi with joy however, and my deconversion has caused me a lot of pain. It's my hope that the Sangat might be able to answer my questions and restore my faith.

My questions are:

1) Why is there evil? If God is capable, and willing, to prevent say a rape taking place, why is there no intervention? Does he not want to intervene, but is able to do so? Then surely he is not benevolent. Is he not capable of doing so, even though he wants to? Then he is technically not all powerful.

2) Why does God care what we eat (bibek, veganism) , wear (bana and Panj Kakkars), say (Nitnem) or whether we take drugs? Why the rules?

3) Why does God reward those who worship him with SachKhand, but condemn those who disbelieve to be reincarnated? Is this not egomaniacal of him?

4) I have heard Sikhs say that the messengers of other religions, Muhammad, Jesus, Moses etc. are also prophets sent from Waheguru. How can they say this when the Abrahamic religions have been demonstrated by science to be wrong, not to mention the characters of two of the aforementioned (Moses and Muhammad) were questionable in the extreme?

5) Does prayer work? It seems to operate no better than chance. For example when one's cancer recedes, people give thanks to God. Why has God never healed an amputee? Why does he heal diseases which have been known to recede entirely on their own?

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh.

About "Atheism" I have to be clear. Sidhu Ji please, help.

Do you deny the existance of GOD or Do you deny the behaviour of GOD? Because, even If you dislike God, that still means, you believe in HIS existance.

This will help you, me and others to understand the PROBLEM.

Regarding some points you have mentioned, it is clear that you are a good person.

1)Why is there evil? If God is capable, and willing, to prevent say a rape taking place, why is there no intervention? Does he not want to intervene, but is able to do so? Then surely he is not benevolent. Is he not capable of doing so, even though he wants to? Then he is technically not all powerful.

It is for that same reason that there is evil which makes more reason why we should unite ourselves with Vaheguru. There is intervention as criminals and rapists are severely punished in hell. Also during every moment of our suffering, Vaheguru experiences and lives with our pain at all times. Another thing to mention is that everything is led by karma, so this is out of our understanding why such evil exists. Sometimes another’s life cannot just be merely described in that way because every life is one’s journey to Vaheguru and even if something may be very bitter at first, it will seem extraordinarily sweet to them in the end and every bit of the karma will make absolute sense to them once they find Vaheguru. This life is our game of love to find Vaheguru and it is our own journey that everyone has or will embark on.

If there is corruption occurring in this world, we can only have ourselves to blame for this as it is due to our lack of purity that is amassing corruption.

Also, as much as the evil in this world is despised upon, just look at how much happiness there is in this world. Vaheguru gives us so many gifts and most of the time we forget the giver and even through all this, Vaheguru stills preserves us again and gives us the chance to find him again in another life.

2) Why does God care what we eat (bibek, veganism) , wear (bana and Panj Kakkars), say (Nitnem) or whether we take drugs? Why the rules?

We practice such actions to make our outwardly appearance as Vaheguru- it is to respect and honour the home of Vaheguru (our body/mind). And rehits are practiced due to enhancing ones spirituality. It is not that Vaheguru cares if we practice this; Guru Sahib gave us rules for us to follow for us to achieve Vaheguru easily and to make us worthy brides in the world. To practice vegetarianism and to avoid drugs is obvious to almost everyone in this world, it is to avoid evil and harm to ourselves and other species.

3) Why does God reward those who worship him with SachKhand, but condemn those who disbelieve to be reincarnated? Is this not egomaniacal of him?

To describe Vaheguru’s qualities is out of reach but can only be understood and known through someone’s own experience. But in mere words it can be clearly said that Vaheguru is no way egomaniacal but has qualities of complete utter kindness, compassion, love and humility that cannot be understood or explained.

Your understanding of saachkhand and our reason of worshipping Vaheguru seems to be misunderstood. We do not worship to satisfy someone’s pride but we pray and mediate on Vaheguru because we believe that is the antidote to bring union with us with Vaheguru. For an egomaniacal person, it seems strange for someone to share their power and love with us? An egomaniacal will never let us have their power or kingship. And the fact that we are given another chance over again again if we haven't found Vaheguru, just shows the limitless generosity and kindness Vaheguru has.

As mentioned before, the reason why we worship Vaheguru is to purify ourselves and make ourselves a worthy enough bride for Vaheguru. Remember this that we lost our love- our true partner which is why we have to regain our partner once again. This is something for you to discover for yourself in your bhagti to Vaheguru. It is a forgotten mystery that you have to remember.

4) I have heard Sikhs say that the messengers of other religions, Muhammad, Jesus, Moses etc. are also prophets sent from Waheguru. How can they say this when the Abrahamic religions have been demonstrated by science to be wrong, not to mention the characters of two of the aforementioned (Moses and Muhammad) were questionable in the extreme?

These same messengers also became consumed in their own pride and thus their teachings did not entirely relate to the truth, so to say their teaching does not match science is irrelevant. But if we follow Guru Granth Sahib Jee which goes along with science, it is irrelevant to bring other religions into this.

5) Does prayer work? It seems to operate no better than chance. For example when one's cancer recedes, people give thanks to God. Why has God never healed an amputee? Why does he heal diseases which have been known to recede entirely on their own?

As mentioned before, when we are inflicted with illness and have some sort of disability, is due to our karma. There was an incident during Baba Harnaam Singh’s life when someone had to suffer with a missing limb and Baba Harnaam Singh had to reveal to him his wrong doing in his previous life which was that he had beaten and broken his dog’s leg. Such incidents occur at our own cost. Vaheguru cares for every single species, whether small or big. Plus, it is due to our purity and faith that such miracles occur.

A Sidhu, we could write a term paper trying to answer all your questions but this wouldn't solve any of your questions. The questions you have asked can only be solved by you through patience and faith.

Why does bad happen, why does the Guru have rules? This is the whole point of faith. The point of faith is having faith and not questioning his will/hukum. Faith comes through patience it doesn't come over night we cannot understand the ways or mysteries of God in a billion life times, before we understand God we need to understand ourselves and this only comes through accepting not questioning his Hukums.

We cant understand his hukum if we have departed from his Hukum. Many questions you are asking are in reality questioning the very essence of Gurbani. For example you ask why does God reward some with Sach Khand but punish others with Hell. Gurbani makes it clear why some are given hell while others are given acceptance in his divine court. Gurbani is deep like bottomless ocean we can not fathom its deep truth as someone has departed from their hukum. Gurbani is our guru. Gurbani gives us instruction only when we accept not question this instruction do we progress on the path of Sikhi. I remember once an Athiest try to explain to me how Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji does not condemn Homosexuality. I simply told him their is a maryada in understanding Sri GUru Granth Sahib Ji and the very first part of the maryada is to take Amrit from Panj Pyaarey and accept his hukums the very basics beings amrit vela, panj kakkars, nitnem etc. I asked him if he did any of the following and he said no. Think of it like this Gurbani is our teacher. If a student believes in somethings in what the teacher says but their mind questions other things about what the teacher says while they progress as a student of the teacher? No of course not first we have to accept his teaching with a faithful mind.

When I first to Amrit I too use to question all the " rules" especially rehats like " Bibek" I asked many questions about this rehat but nobody could give me an answer I wanted to hear. This one question lead to other questions In my mind. Night and day questions lingered in my mind and I did not make any progression in Sikhi it was only through submission to his Hukum where the questions departed and answers automatically came. The mind which is hard in accepting his hukum cannot understand his Hukum. We have to soften our mind to his hukum only then can we fully absorb his hukum. The essence of Sikhi is to accept his Hukum/naam and this becomes an integral part of our faith. Its never to late to pesh and receive his hukum and live by his Hukum.

Keep your faith in Sikhi simple. Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji has given Gurgaddi to Sri GUru Granth Sahib Ji and Panj Pyaarey are the form of Sri GUru Ji and they have become the custodians of naam and have the ability to give Amrit. First accept this fact and accept his Hukums and then slowly slowly you will begin to understand the truths of Gurbani it doesn't happen overnight it takes time , patience, and most of all faith.

Sidhu ji I myself have often struggled with these and similar questions. I shall make some points below. Please bear with me because these are not very structured form, I am writing these in a bit of disorderly way.

When we use the term 'evil' we are not getting at the crux of the problem of human life. The main problem is not of the existence of evil. The main problem is 'dukkha'. Mahatma Buddha emphasized clearly on this through his 4 noble truths and this is why I have immense respect and a very high place for him in my heart. 'Evil' is a label of a tendency, a potentiality and its movement in action, which results in dukkha. But it is the dukkha that we get or feel from the action of evil that perturbs us.

Any philosopher at one point must grapple with the question of the reason of the existence. There is no final 'explanation' of our existence. The basic question: why existence exists? has never been answered and never shall be answered. The reason is that logic and rationality came into existence AFTER existence came into existence. If you meditate in the question of Why, you'd see that we can never, ever, ever, ever know the Why. Why would Unity become into Diversity? We can never know, because reason cannot exist prior to existence. If a reason for an action has to exist, it has to exist prior to the action. Since existence itself did not exist before existence, therefore reason cannot exist before it. Because reason is a part of existence.

So here is my final say on the Why of existence: Reason cannot exist prior to existence.

So where does this leave us. That the existence is mysterious. In Sikhi we call this His Mauj, His Leela. That is the best way to describe it, if it has to be brought to description.

In this mysterious existence, in this leela, there is duality in everything. On one end there is darkness, on the other there is light, on one hand there is heat, on the other hand there is cold, on one end there is 0 (absence of a thing), on the other end there is infinity (uncountable at least). On on hand there is day, on the other there is night. This is in the very nature of existence.

Following this characteristic of existence there is good and evil. In fact if there was not dukkha, we would never have had a problem with evil. It is the dukkha which makes evil a problem. If you were to wish to kill me, and if I had no desire to cling on to my life, you action would never become a problem for me.

So Sikhism addresses the problem, not the outer manifestation of the problem. The problem is Dukkha and the solution is Naam. Naam alleviates Dukkha. It roots it out. The existence is termed by Gurbani as being Traiguni (Sattvic, Rajasic, Tamasic). So evil shall always be there as a result of movement of Rajasic and Tamasic gunas. The alleviation lies in Naam.

I know this does not answer your question of why God does not stop evil. Again, as I said, it is in the nature of existence. Again, that takes us back to the earlier thought of why such an existence came into being? Again, I say, a reason cannot exist prior to existence. So you see it can never be explained.

It is true It can never be explained, but dukkha can be alleviated, through Naam.

ਜਿਸੁ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਸਿਉ ਨਾਹੀ ਚਾਰਾ ॥ ਤਾ ਕਉ ਕੀਜੈ ਸਦ ਨਮਸਕਾਰਾ ॥

Hope this helps in some way

Sidhu ji,
I am a Sidhu too.
I have been approached by Christian missionaries (including Jehovah witness), many times, but each time reply to their initial question as to why do you think there is so much evil in world...with simply because we have forgotten Waheguru, and treat illusion of life's struggles as real ji...
I am a senior female weak (due to live for food, and sleep) amritdhari, but I am very proud of my bana although ignorant Sikhs, and non-Sikhs think I am gay, a male due to my very plain attire/ security uniform (I assume?), and treated like I am an infectious disease (due to my passion for amazing AKJ gem Sikhs, Gursikhi..and need to defend my rehit at Gurdwara, home). But when I adhere to discipline 100%..without even thinking Waheguru attends to ALL MY NEEDS ji.
And despite pitiful stares, I am proud of my bana, because that is how Waheguru is attired too ji and not in Maya attire that world is so involved with ji.
Try taking Amrit (only at Ontario Darbar hall no 5), and move there if you able to, and mingle only with like Amritdharis...or be super thick-skinned like me to survive daily struggles amongst Sikhs/ non-Sikhs Ji.
bhul chuk muaf Waheguru, atey Guru Pyareo jio

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

"I couldn't reconcile my belief in God with rationality." - there is no rationality, much like there is no rationality between an infatuated person with his object of desire. If you ask that infatuated person what is their reason, do not expect rational responses. It is because it is.

You can go line by line on each question, but in love, there is no question and answer. Ultimately, the lover loves because there is pleasure in it. Gurbani speaks of that love, written by lovers of that Almighty God, who loved the Almighty so much that the Almighty and the lover were the same. They speak of how all other loves are false, how the pleasure of the Almighty is supreme and does not fade, but rather increases you to maddening heights of happiness/bliss/joy/words cannot describe that no other worldly thing can.

If you attempt to rationalize by question and answer, you may never be satisfied and become the anti-thesis of Sikhi - a dry, confused soul searching for reasoning where the path requires blind devotion to something that simply is, not because of something. Sikhs have a group like that in the Gurmat Gian Missionary College, which try to marry Sikhs to science and rationalism - they are looked upon as heretics, because their very quest to make Sikhi "practical and scientific" conflicts with the irrational path of love laid out by Guru Sahib. They have lost the essence of that which Sikhi requires - blind faith for that Almighty who gives you happiness that no other thing can give.

It is because true Sikhs have a glimmer of that sweetness, that pleasure, that they are addicted to this path, not rationalism and practicality. They stay in discipline because that is the path of lovers. This is what pleases their beloved. What insane person would wake up in the middle of the night and chant one word over and over (Simran) to remember his Almighty if it did not give him pleasure that is exceeding that of sleep? What person would renounce worldly pleasures of food, big houses, women/men physical relations to be bound to a code of conduct (Rehat) that seems at odds with the rest of the world if the words of his beloved (Gurbani) were not sweet to him/her? What person would go out of his/her way to put his/her own life ahead of others (seva/Shaheedi) if they did not believe this would aid in the speedier meeting with Akaal Purakh?

In the end, you can rationalize, question and make it real all you want, but if you don't feel this bliss, it will be hard to keep Sikhi going.

If you are truly interested in re-discovering Sikhi, it is best to do Sangat of Gursikhs. If they are devoted Gursikhs, and you are destined to follow this path (Gurprasad), the questions will disappear themselves. You will experience something sweet in Sikhi - it will pull you by itself and eventually, you will be at a point where you will not care about the requirements - if it gets you to your end destination or gives you bliss that nothing else in this world can, you will do whatever it takes to get to experience the same or get to the next level of that bliss. At that point, if tying a 4 foot turban would make you more attractive to the Almighty God, you would tie a 5 foot just to make the Almighty happier (which in turn would make you happier).

If not, well, you would not be any worse off then where you started.

A Sidhu Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh,
>
> I am an ex-Sikh who became an atheist because I
> couldn't reconcile my belief in God with
> rationality. I did not part from Sikhi with joy
> however, and my deconversion has caused me a lot
> of pain. It's my hope that the Sangat might be
> able to answer my questions and restore my faith.
>
>
> My questions are:
>
> 1) Why is there evil? If God is capable, and
> willing, to prevent say a rape taking place, why
> is there no intervention? Does he not want to
> intervene, but is able to do so? Then surely he is
> not benevolent. Is he not capable of doing so,
> even though he wants to? Then he is technically
> not all powerful.
>
> 2) Why does God care what we eat (bibek, veganism)
> , wear (bana and Panj Kakkars), say (Nitnem) or
> whether we take drugs? Why the rules?
>
> 3) Why does God reward those who worship him with
> SachKhand, but condemn those who disbelieve to be
> reincarnated? Is this not egomaniacal of him?
>
> 4) I have heard Sikhs say that the messengers of
> other religions, Muhammad, Jesus, Moses etc. are
> also prophets sent from Waheguru. How can they say
> this when the Abrahamic religions have been
> demonstrated by science to be wrong, not to
> mention the characters of two of the
> aforementioned (Moses and Muhammad) were
> questionable in the extreme?
>
> 5) Does prayer work? It seems to operate no better
> than chance. For example when one's cancer
> recedes, people give thanks to God. Why has God
> never healed an amputee? Why does he heal diseases
> which have been known to recede entirely on their
> own?
>
> Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh.


simple solution -- as jeeo - thinking that creates the problem is not the thinking that will find the solution - thinking has to change - your belief will redevelop.

Thank you all for your thorough responses.

MB Singh Ji, I should have made my beliefs more clear, and I apologize. I'm not an atheist in that I deny that there may be a deity altogether. I believe in something called Spinoza's God, that is, a deity who created the world, but is apathetic to what we on Earth do.

Sukhdeep Singh Ji, Ns44 ji, ks ji and ms514 ji, you all questioned my need for a rational explanation for God, suggesting instead that I make the plunge and opt for faith over reason. I hope you can understand that I am hesitant to do that. If someone were to come to me asking that I invest all my money in their business venture, without even telling me what this venture entailed, then I would exercise a lot of caution and I'd be right to do so. Similarly, if someone asks me to invest my whole life, my very being, towards a religion, without giving me rational assurance that there is a God and my efforts will bear fruit, I will also hesitate.

Though I concede that their may be a God, I'm not entirely convinced that he is omni benevolent. I can see now, thank you eyesacademic ji in particular, that in order for there to be happiness and good, there must too be an antithesis, evil. But what of natural disasters? Diseases and pestilence? What is the need for them to exist and cause unnecessary suffering?

And also, if it outward observances ultimately don't matter to God, why is it necessary to keep maintain the Khalsa Rehat? SinghniMiriPiri Ji, you said that it is done in order to enhance one's spirituality. Is one incapable of doing this without Rehat? Though such observances as keeping Kes suceed in making some people humble, I have also known people that have become very arrogant by keeping their hair uncut, because they feel as though they are now able to lord it over monas and criticise them for being shaven.

I appreciate that you all took the time out to help me, WJKK, WJKF

Sidhu Ji,

Guru Sahib is our Father who takes us to our Husband, similarly in worldly terms of how a father brings the bride to her husband. The outward observances we maintain are important for us to be virtuously beautiful brides to Vaheguru and those are one of the characteristics Guru Sahib takes note of.

If one were to take amrit, then we have no choice but to practice sikhi principles. You can increase your spirituality without sikhi but you will have very little help as you will not have Guru Sahib, and you will not have him to take you to Vaheguru.

If someone disrespects anyone egotistically that is totally against Sikhi as Gurbani has taught us we cannot find Vaheguru in pride. Their pride is there because they are only keeping outwardly rehat but are not practicing virtues and meditating on naam much. By doing increasingly amounts of bhagti as well as practicing virtues, Guru Sahib will be at hand at all times to guide you on your path.

I understand your concerns regarding you not wanting to take amrit without full belief in God. I think that it is good you are being careful about your choice in life and no one should ever look at you differently due to your disbelief. I believe you could try to find your answers before taking amrit. In all truth, Sikhi does not teach us blind faith but teaches us to experience God and this is very much possible before taking amrit. All you need to do is meditate on naam in your head with concentration a lot, and you will have to find your answers there. I’ve known of many people experiencing the same experiences of Vaheguru at beginning stages of naam, this shouldn’t be difficult for you. If you want to be sure of your experience, find any reference to the same experience in Gurbani so that you know it is the truth and not something imaginary. But remember this, that even if you do experience something do not believe you can find Vaheguru without Guru Sahib.

I hope this helps.

A Sidhu Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thank you all for your thorough responses.
>
> MB Singh Ji, I should have made my beliefs more
> clear, and I apologize. I'm not an atheist in that
> I deny that there may be a deity altogether. I
> believe in something called Spinoza's God, that
> is, a deity who created the world, but is
> apathetic to what we on Earth do.
>
> Sukhdeep Singh Ji, Ns44 ji, ks ji and ms514 ji,
> you all questioned my need for a rational
> explanation for God, suggesting instead that I
> make the plunge and opt for faith over reason. I
> hope you can understand that I am hesitant to do
> that. If someone were to come to me asking that I
> invest all my money in their business venture,
> without even telling me what this venture
> entailed, then I would exercise a lot of caution
> and I'd be right to do so. Similarly, if someone
> asks me to invest my whole life, my very being,
> towards a religion, without giving me rational
> assurance that there is a God and my efforts will
> bear fruit, I will also hesitate.
>
> Though I concede that their may be a God, I'm not
> entirely convinced that he is omni benevolent. I
> can see now, thank you eyesacademic ji in
> particular, that in order for there to be
> happiness and good, there must too be an
> antithesis, evil. But what of natural disasters?
> Diseases and pestilence? What is the need for them
> to exist and cause unnecessary suffering?
>
> And also, if it outward observances ultimately
> don't matter to God, why is it necessary to keep
> maintain the Khalsa Rehat? SinghniMiriPiri Ji, you
> said that it is done in order to enhance one's
> spirituality. Is one incapable of doing this
> without Rehat? Though such observances as keeping
> Kes suceed in making some people humble, I have
> also known people that have become very arrogant
> by keeping their hair uncut, because they feel as
> though they are now able to lord it over monas and
> criticise them for being shaven.
>
> I appreciate that you all took the time out to
> help me, WJKK, WJKF

No AS jeeo I haven;t helped at all jeeo as you have thousands of questions. I 'm afraid you will hardly find the answers to such questions on a forum.. Our Guru Sahiban preached for 250 odd years - don't just discount in this measly life of 50-70 odd years that anyone of us would get it. Who knows how long it will take - may take janams to realize the right path and belief of God. Gurbani is crystal clear - you believe out right Guru's hukam's are crystal clear . If you takee Guru Angad Dev Jee he was 60 odd years old read the and understand the 7 years of tests he had to face with Guru Nannak Dev jee Maharaj before becoming Guru.

You mention "Similarly, if someone
> asks me to invest my whole life, my very being,
> towards a religion, without giving me rational
> assurance that there is a God and my efforts will
> bear fruit, I will also hesitate.

How do you know this is your life - you breath the air , you eat , how is it decided your body digests what you eat sir? Rational assurance is there read and listen to Japji - first lines give that rational assurance.

You are asking a thousand questions - lets ask you one Sikhism prays for you whatever you are atheiest or whatever as in "nanank naam chardee kala tere bhane sarbat da bhaall" sarbat da bhall includes you AS sahib - so what is your response to our Great Guru Nanak Devee jee maharaj - he prays for your sarbat da bhalla -- why do you shy away - which other religion or way of life prays in such manner sir?

Quote

If someone were to come to me asking that I invest all my money in their business venture, without even telling me what this venture entailed, then I would exercise a lot of caution and I'd be right to do so. Similarly, if someone asks me to invest my whole life, my very being, towards a religion, without giving me rational assurance that there is a God and my efforts will bear fruit, I will also hesitate.

ਹਰਿ ਵਾਪਾਰਿ ਸੇ ਜਨ ਲਾਗੇ ਜਿਨਾ ਮਸਤਕਿ ਮਣੀ ਵਡਭਾਗੋ ਰਾਮ ॥

Veer Sidhu Ji

I have few words to share here.

Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh Ji in JAIL CHITHIAN writes about his discussion with Shaheed Bhagat Singh about his atheist views. And in his book; KI SRI GURU GRANTH SAHIB DI POOJA BUT PRASTI HAI also Bhai Sahib Ji discusses this subject in detail. You should read both.

1) Why is there evil? If God is capable, and willing, to prevent ------------------------------------

This question is so common with atheists. Bhagat Singh also raises this question in his book on ATHEISM. Khuswant Singh (India) once wrote in his article after Psunami damages in India; Why this catastophe? Is HE so cruel ? -------------An other form of this question could be; why so many cruelities were done to SIKHS and SIKH GURUS. Why the SIKH GURUS did not intervene directly to stop that?

2) Why does God care what we eat (bibek, veganism) , wear (bana and Panj Kakkars), say (Nitnem) or whether we take drugs? Why the rules?

God does not care that. We do it for our development. God just watches, how we perform as a player in this show.

3) Why does God reward those who worship him with SachKhand, but condemn those who disbelieve to be reincarnated? Is this not egomaniacal of him?

Bhagat Singh has also raised this question.----------- Answer, God does need our worship. Those who want to be closer to HIM, use different methods for that. Some worship in fake and useless ways and some do it honestly.----------- Whether he rewards or punishes, should not be our concern.

4) I have heard Sikhs say that the messengers of other religions, Muhammad, Jesus, Moses etc. ----------------------------------)

Sorry, no answer, I have.

5 Does prayer work? It seems to operate no better than chance. ---------------------------------------

Prayer does work, if He likes. We have no right to be angry or annoyed, if it does not work.

FEW MORE WORDS:

Veer Ji, We know nothing about GOD and HIS ATTRIBUTES. We are as dumb as animals. Questions will remain as questions for centuries, unless we find solace in GURU NANAK. As a sikh, we should not try to see beyond GURU NANAK. All our wisdom should come directly from HIM. He is our personal GOD. He is all in all for us.

Only reasonable question is, Should we believe in GURU GRANTH SAHIB or not? If you find, a better personal GOD than GURU GOBIND SINGH, you may try that. But if you do not find any; then why waste time on finding GOD, with tools, not recommended by GURU GOBIND SINGH JI.

I was hesitant to post in this thread because I don't see the value in trying to convince someone that Vaheguru exists and to rationalize why Vaheguru does what he does. There is no proof outside of Gurbani that we could give you to say why Vaheguru punishes sinners and takes Gurmukhs too Sachkhand. The only reasoning for this is in Gurbani, which you admittedly have doubts about. So I will not try to convince you of this.

What I am interested in is that you brought up the point that you believe in a deist God rather than a theist God, by which you are saying that since creation exists, it is safe to say that a Creator must also exist, but that after he created creation, he basically just disappears. Once you have already decided that you believe there is a God, the next logical question should be "Why did he create creation?"

For a deist concept of God this question cannot be answered. If God was going to create the world but not interfere in it at all, then whats the point in creating it in the first place? What purpose does it serve? What is the purpose of our existence? Are we just born too inevitably die? This just seems very illogical too say that God just goes away and loses his power once he has made everything.

In Gurmat, Vaheguru is intimately involved within all of creation, and it is in his power that everything is happening. This is the only explanation for why "bad things" happen. It would be very cruel for a deist God to just sit back and watch while bad things happen to people. But while Vaheguru does allow bad things to happen, at the same time it is Vaheguru that is sympathetic to our pain and to hear our Ardaas.

If you can take the leap of faith to believe there is a deist God and that his reasoning for creating the world cannot be understood, then what is stopping you from applying this same clause to the rest of your questions?

In conclusion I would suggest for you to not search for the answers to your questions by just researching and using the mind to understand things. Rather I suggest that you stop thinking about these questions and do Paath daily of Japjee Sahib with an open mind. Only Guru Sahib can relieve your doubts and for this you have to have an intimate experience with Guru Sahib. Gurbani has Paraskala, it transforms you once it touches your heart.

This does not take much of an investment for you to do. You don't have to give up anything other than a few minutes a day.

Guru Sahib Bhala Karn.

Preetam Singh

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Similarly, if someone asks me to invest my whole life, my very being, towards a religion, without giving me rational assurance that there is a God and my efforts will bear fruit, I will also hesitate.

I do not know what kind of “rational” assurance you require but such cannot be given even for material things. You can tell your kid to go to school and invest 20+ years of his life in the hope to get a degree but you cannot give any assurance that your kid will definitely receive a degree. The best you can do is cite examples of those who have reached that level. Similarly, the best we can do in religion is to cite examples and personal testimonies of the Gurus, bhagats, saints and gursikhs who reached that level and had partakh darshan of Vaheguru. There is no need for these personalities to lie to us. Just like a child puts his trust in his parents, we must have faith in Guru Sahib.

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Though I concede that their may be a God, I'm not entirely convinced that he is omni benevolent.

God created everything in balance. Good and bad are part of creation. Without bad no one will value good and without lie no one will value truth. Had God created only one and made everyone truthful and unable to lie then where would that leave freewill? What purpose would that serve? Human would become pure mechanical robots. First you need to provide definition of evil. I don’t think there is such thing as absolute evil. God created what we consider bad and evil but it doesn’t mean He causes bad and evil to happen. Humans are responsible for their own actions. This is how the system works. God loves all without any discrimination and the very proof of it is that we are alive. Our physical conditions are due to our own karma. You can’t blame God for it. Just like you can’t blame water for not quenching your thirst when you don’t drink it. Don’t blame God for your own suffering when you fail to seek His sanctuary to receive His love and alleviate your suffering. He has given us the Divine Message (Gurbani) and Naam to get rid of our physical ailments, suffering and evil.

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And also, if it outward observances ultimately don't matter to God, why is it necessary to keep maintain the Khalsa Rehat? SinghniMiriPiri Ji, you said that it is done in order to enhance one's spirituality. Is one incapable of doing this without Rehat?

This is like asking if one can receive a PhD without ever going to school, receiving training, working under someone’s supervision and putting any effort in it. Rehat is code of conduct and without it becoming one with God is impossible. Every field has rehat and without it excelling in that field is impossible. God cares for us which is why He has given us the guidance. But He doesn't need our worship. We do it for our own progress. If we don't obey we suffer.

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Though such observances as keeping Kes suceed in making some people humble, I have also known people that have become very arrogant by keeping their hair uncut, because they feel as though they are now able to lord it over monas and criticise them for being shaven.

You can’t blame rehat for people’s arrogance and misbehavior.

Sidhu Sahib

The fact that you begin and end your message with Fateh implies that you're not really an atheist, just a bit annoyed/upset with Vaheguru. Sorry, but that is so cute! . After all, if I won't get annoyed with my mother, for whatever reason, who else will I get angry with!

1) Why is there evil? If God is capable, and willing, to prevent say a rape taking place, why is there no intervention? Does he not want to intervene, but is able to do so? Then surely he is not benevolent. Is he not capable of doing so, even though he wants to? Then he is technically not all powerful.



2) Why does God care what we eat (bibek, veganism) , wear (bana and Panj Kakkars), say (Nitnem) or whether we take drugs? Why the rules?



3) Why does God reward those who worship him with SachKhand, but condemn those who disbelieve to be reincarnated? Is this not egomaniacal of him?
ਹਰਿ ਚਰਨ ਕਾਰਨ ਕਰਨ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਪਤਿਤ ਉਧਰਨ ਹਰਿ ਹਰੇ ॥ The Lord's lotus feet are the cause of causes; the Lord Master saves even the sinners.

4) I have heard Sikhs say that the messengers of other religions, Muhammad, Jesus, Moses etc. are also prophets sent from Waheguru. How can they say this when the Abrahamic religions have been demonstrated by science to be wrong, not to mention the characters of two of the aforementioned (Moses and Muhammad) were questionable in the extreme?

ਜੋਤਿ ਰੂਪਿ ਹਰਿ ਆਪਿ ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਕਹਾਯਉ ॥ The Embodiment of Light, the Lord Himself is called Guru Nanak.

5) Does prayer work? It seems to operate no better than chance. For example when one's cancer recedes, people give thanks to God. Why has God never healed an amputee? Why does he heal diseases which have been known to recede entirely on their own?

ਬਿਰਥੀ ਕਦੇ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਜਨ ਕੀ ਅਰਦਾਸਿ ॥ The prayer of the Lord's humble servant is never offered in vain.




Sometimes when I hear/see/read people talking so much against Vaheguru, I start suspecting them. I feel like falling at their feet, grabbing their feet, and begging them, and saying "Vaheguru ji, who else but You Yourself can dare to speak so much against Yourself! Why are You testing us?"

So, Vaheguru ji, why are You testing us coming on this forum under the name of A Sidhu? What took You so long? Now that You've come, please never go away!

A Sidhu Ji,

I'm not able to answer your questions as well as others already have but one point I will mention regarding rehat is that Khalsa is Akal Purakh ki 'Fauj'. Therefore just like any Army regiment or sports team in the World, we are expected to be in Guru Ji's uniform. This makes us 'niara' unique from the rest and identifiable from the many billions who have not yet joined the ranks. The minimum rehat being the panj kakkar bestowed by Guru Gobind Singh Ji in 1699 and the ones who go the extra mile wear bana as well. Bana on its own without Bani is of no use, just like a bird with one wing cannot fly, so both are necessary.

Personally I have not seen true Gursikhs mock anyone let alone monay veers. Why would they? Ninda is a complete no no for Gursikhs.

Once again thank you all. You're contributions have convinced me that the existence of moral evil doesn't disprove God.

Preetam Singh Ji, I don't believe that my deist God simply created all that was, only to somehow lose his power and abandon it. I believe that Spinoza's God may have created the universe, because it enjoys a good show. Maybe it derives some amusement from observing the wacky happenings on Earth. One thing which still keeps me from making that leap of faith, is the presence of natural evils - tsunamis, hurricanes, tornadoes, which seem to serve no other purpose than to destroy lives. Why would God create these phenomenon?

LOL, Mehtab Singh Ji I say my fateh because, despite my deism, I have immense pyaar for Sikhi, and Sikhs. Sikhi the only major world religion which makes even the slightest sense.

Could I be a Puran Gursikh, and still believe that the only purpose of prayer is for inspiration and mental strength? That is, could I be a Gursikh and believe that things like disease cannot simply be prayed away?

A Sidhu Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Once again thank you all. You're contributions
> have convinced me that the existence of moral evil
> doesn't disprove God.
>
> Preetam Singh Ji, I don't believe that my deist
> God simply created all that was, only to somehow
> lose his power and abandon it. I believe that
> Spinoza's God may have created the universe,
> because it enjoys a good show. Maybe it derives
> some amusement from observing the wacky happenings
> on Earth. One thing which still keeps me from
> making that leap of faith, is the presence of
> natural evils - tsunamis, hurricanes, tornadoes,
> which seem to serve no other purpose than to
> destroy lives. Why would God create these
> phenomenon?

before answerign that one - why has God created you in the first place> ? you are also a phenomenon are you not?

>
> LOL, Mehtab Singh Ji I say my fateh because,
> despite my deism, I have immense pyaar for Sikhi,
> and Sikhs. Sikhi the only major world religion
> which makes even the slightest sense.
>
> Could I be a Puran Gursikh, and still believe that
> the only purpose of prayer is for inspiration and
> mental strength?

indeed if you had the passsion prem would there be any doubt. Issue is we want sikhe in a box - that is impossible. It has to be worked on with specfic goals in life - goals of rehat - for that freedom from the five vices and serving with selfless sewa- then off go to lofty levels where these questions dissappear like dust.

One thing which still keeps me from making that leap of faith, is the presence of natural evils - tsunamis, hurricanes, tornadoes, which seem to serve no other purpose than to destroy lives. Why would God create these phenomenon?

Death or the visibe end of life is similar, whether it comes to one at a time or many at one time. AAP MARRE JAGG PARLO. So the magnitude of so many deaths at one time, should not make us disbelieve. Who creates, knows how to nourish or end it. We did not come on this planet of our own, we were here as HE wanted us to be here. So, we should not be worried about our end. WE are HIS OWN lot, HE may manage us as HE likes that.

Could I be a Puran Gursikh, and still believe that the only purpose of prayer is for inspiration and mental strength? That is, could I be a Gursikh and believe that things like disease cannot simply be prayed away?

Only purpose of prayer is not inspiration or mental strengh. We pray what we need. GURSIKHS pray what they need. They may pray for visibly unworthy things like "dust of the feet of SANGAT" or visible favours like "welfare of all".

If it happened that a disease did not go away immediately after I prayed, it does not mean, GOD is not there to listen me. Gursikhs often say like that, " I will not pray for this visible benefits. These are immaterial after all. I will pray for real benefits only".

If visible creation is so much short lived and illusion, why have some priorities or pray for changes in it. They are worried about, what others do not see at all.

A Sidhu,

We studied Deism in College, and I think its more wiser to question the beliefs and history of Deism rather then Sikhi. Where did Deism originate from? The Greeks. THe Greeks were looking for a substitute for the multiple Gods they believed in so they adopted Deism. Deism enabled them to live the life they wanted without fear of the raft of Gods. European Enlightment thinkers adopted this Theist approach as they didn't want to be burdend by the archaic laws of the Catholic Church.

In Sikhi, Missionaries Kala Afghana, Professor Darshan Dhunda etc, too have adopted this theist approach as they too are against moral authority and they like to live as they wish without fearing any consequences they even go as far as to question the existence of hell or lakh charasi joon. If Waaheguru Ji was not interpersonal then why was Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji sent. Why is Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji present. If he was a careless father and did not care for his children then why did he leave us Gurbani the very essence which brings life to the being. Sri Akal Purakh Ji is very interpersonal . No matter how many times we forget him he never forgets us. Such is his love for us.

I have nothing else to say on this matter all I can advise is if you are going to question something then question Deism.

Gurfeteh
Bhai Sahib no answer is going to satisfy you, because the mind will come up with another question or a doubt. The only way to have all your questions answered is to do Naam Simran.

Sidhu ji,
suffering, natural disasters occur because we have forgotten our Waheguru Jio, who is very much ang sangey.
Gurbani affirms this truth with reminding us that breath which goes in His forgetfulness is most susceptible to pain ji...just read about Sikh Saints on this website, to be convinced that Waheguru is very much around, and His laws automatic..you forget you suffer...you remember you reap now, and after your body perish.
Waheguru does not want us to suffer in afterlife thus He made life as such ji..
Bhai Jeevan Singh Jio and His wife were very close...she has taken leave for Sachkhand, while Bhai Jeevan Singh Jio still living, but bed bound from what I understand from this forum...but Bhai Sahib ji is not bitter, or lost any faith in Waheguru...because He understands what we see as suffering is illusion...
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bhul chuk muaf
Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa,
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

...you might then ask, why is vey Waheguru faithful Bhai Jeevan Singh made to be seperate from late wife, and bed bound....we can only reach sachkhand when we love only the light within each of us, and not the dusty shadow illusion our souls enveloped within ji...
bhul chuk muaf Waheguru Jio...