Khalsa Raj

What is Khalsa Raj? How and when would it come? Would it happen automatically by coming one person through one of the eastern country or do we need to do any preparation/planning? Could it come by doing only Bhagti? Do we need to do anything else towards getting to that goal? How Miri/Piri concept be used in practical? Should we wait for somebody else or should we do anything ourselves?

When there is unconditional pure love amongst all Sikhs..to treat all with same respect regardless of avastha, Gursikhi kamai jio!

so ks ji,
When Banda Singh Bahadar ruled Punjab, When Singhs defeted Mughals/Turks, When Baghel Singh captured Delhi, When Maharaja Ranjit Singh successfully established his rule. all those times singhs were having differences but fought with enemy colllectly. We do not need to wait to have a love amongst each other (which is close to impossible) to fight with common enemy. Misls had so many differences amongst each other but they fought with enemy collectively. Afghan tribes have so many differences amongst each other but they fought with enemies collectively. Why do we have to wait for this "pure love"? Could we achieve anything by doing Bhagti only inspite of the Miri Piri concept given to us? I am sure Guru Hargobind Sahib and Guru Gobind Singh ji could have easily asked us to do Bhagti only and they did not need to fight with Hindu/Mughals in different fights if Bhagti only could make things better.

Sagg jio,
because with pure love, we have conquered the world jio!
man jetai jag jeet!!
many past Sikh Saints' dusht could not hurt Saints, due to protection of unlimitedly powerful Waheguru; who has promised in Gurbani, that He is ever for Saint!
maharaja Ranjit Singh kingdom of former Punjab, could not last because family lacked pure love...

Sagg jio,
because with pure love alone..maan jeetey, jag jeet...Waheguru is ever with His Sikh..when Waheguru with us..miri piri is successfully achieved to
achieve and maintain Khalsa Raj...Maharaja Ranjit kingdom became weak to enemy as no pure love unity...to serve Waheguru and His manifestations before ourselves...

The threshold level of number of people wanting a separate political state is hugely wanting.

As per my understanding, Khalsa Raj means the point of time when every human being on this planet embraces the teaching of Sri Guru Nanak Dev Jee and eventually understand the purpose of birth is to go back to Sachkhand.

It is the day when every "Prani" has realised that the most appropriate "Marg" leading to Sachkhand is of "Nirmal Nirmal Nirmal Teri Bani". Guru Sahib has filtered this 3 times with "Nirmal Nirmal Nirmal" and not just 1 time as "Nirmal Bani". It is the day when every "Prani" has realised that the "Paras-Kala" of Gurbani is the key to "Milaap" with Waheguru.

When somebody mentions of Baba Banda Singh Bahadur or Maharaja Ranjit Singh of establishing Khalsa Raj, I would say the appropriate term would be that they established "Khalsa Autonomous Province" or "Khalsa Administrative State" or it was a "Khalsa Pradesh" and it was not a Khalsa Raj. If it would have been true Khalsa Raj then why were various Misls still fighting among themselves for their share of districts.

Khalsa is Paramatam's Mauj so apart from Akal Purakh who else can bring Khalsa Raj. Only, Akal Purakh through is mystic ways will tune every human's mind towards Gurbani to make their "Janam Suhela" via Sikhi.

Khalsa is Gyan. It is the Gyan which will do Raj. All the false teachings will vanish and True Gyan i.e. Gurbani will spread around the world and Gurbani will then do the Raj. This is Khalsa Raj.

Khalsa Raj does not mean ruling a Piece of Land. If that would have been the case then why would Guru Sahibs travel far far lands to spread the message of Gurbani. The idea was to spread Gurbani - The Ture Gyan of Akal Purakh so that the "Agayanta" would vanish in far far lands.

Alexander-the-great had won almost all of the possible land on this planet. But he returned empty handed from this world. In same manner so many Kings & Rulers came, ruled the Land and then they were gone. Ownership of Land keeps changing with time. Nobody can hold on to the piece of land forever eternally.

Probably, linking Khlasa Raj with Khalistan creates a series of confusion. To me these are 2 separate entities. The Khalsa Raj is more of spiritual realm and it is eternal, everlasting and timeless. While on the other hand Khalistan seems to me more of a physical realm as a temporary short term solution to our agonies of recent times.

As far as I am aware, Sant Jarnail Singh Jee by himself never asked for something called Khalistan. He was all standing for our rights and for autonomous status of our state. This propaganda of using keyword Khalistan was conceived by Indira Govt. and RSS to defame Sikhs in that complicated era. It was devised to show Sikhs in bad light in front of fellow Indians as if we wanted some separate Country all together.

If we take a look at Anandpur Sahib Resolution nowhere we will come across keyword Khalisatan (until and unless if the documents are tainted now). It was all about a Autonoumous Status for the state. But again the boundaries of the state remains questionable because huge politics was already played relatated to the boundaries.

In present time, the way we have started spreading awareness that 1984 was Not a Riot but it was a Genocide. In similar manner we have to convey that we want Autonoumous Status for the state and not some country called Khalistan as it is conspired against us. The Indian Govt. and RSS has done enough damage by spreading this keyword Khalistan against us and today to every Indian it sounds almost like a Taliban.

Today the Media has changed, we have wider reach and we should use this as an opportunity to educate fellow Indians and people around the world that we want "Autonoumous Status" and Not Khalistan. Sometime, the change of Tone and Words makes a huge difference. Indian Youth and others have started learning that 1984 was Genocide and it was Not a Riot. Similar, attempts are required in training the population and implementing the Anandpur Sahib Resolution. While, Autonoumous Status for a state remains a short term vision, the long term vision still remains of a Khalsa Raj.

The Khalsa Raj is a Abhinaasi Raj where every Prani will "Daman" his Mann, Chit, Budh, Ahankaar and Vikaars. This "Daman" will happen with "Paras-Kala" of Gurbani. This Khalsa Abhinaasi Raj will be a bliss and living life in that era will be a astound celebration.

Bhul Chuk Maaf.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa,
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh.

I genuinely doubt the very idea of neo-'Khalistanis' have
but believe the term "Raaj Karega Khalsa" will materialize as Bhai Rama Singh jee and many gurmukhs have talked about. Gurmukhs have made it clear that only those who have accumulated naam wealth will inherit it.

Quote
Sagg
When Banda Singh Bahadar ruled Punjab, When Singhs defeted Mughals/Turks, When Baghel Singh captured Delhi, When Maharaja Ranjit Singh successfully established his rule. all those times singhs were having differences but fought with enemy colllectly. We do not need to wait to have a love amongst each other (which is close to impossible) to fight with common enemy. Misls had so many differences amongst each other but they fought with enemy collectively. Afghan tribes have so many differences amongst each other but they fought with enemies collectively. Why do we have to wait for this "pure love"? Could we achieve anything by doing Bhagti only inspite of the Miri Piri concept given to us? I am sure Guru Hargobind Sahib and Guru Gobind Singh ji could have easily asked us to do Bhagti only and they did not need to fight with Hindu/Mughals in different fights if Bhagti only could make things better.

We alway talk about the 2 times Sikhs ruled and tend to call it the "golden age", but hardly anyone reflects that neither 2 of these lasted even 1 generation. The record not impressive.
Fighting and winning ones own indepence is the easy part. Maintaining ones independence, ruling justly and with integrity and an wealthy economy with fair dsitribution(to minimize poverty) is the difficult part. Most goverments end due to bad karma they incur during their rule.

The reason only those with bhagti will be given Khalsaa Raaj is because they will also have integrity and character due to Naam. Which of course the panth lacks today.

Do we think that Sikhs of today can achieve that Guru Sahibs himself did not? (I apologize in dvance to use that). Even Punjab, the birthplace of Khalsa is not following Gurbani now a days, how to expect whole world? If we keep Khalsa Raaj & Khalistan two separate things, could we achieve Khalsa Raaj without getting Khalistan first? If Sant ji had said that if Army attacks Golden Temple, the foundation of Khalistan will be established; so, should we drop the idea of KHalistan and start the demand of Autonomus State? s not it mean that we are starting all over again where we started in 1947.

Khalistan is a separate nation from that of others.
In my humble opinion why can we not live in harmony with the hindus and the muslims.. Why they cannot live in harmony with is. >Im with jaskirat veerjee here..

Why can't india be united.. why cant there be no such thing as Hindustan, Pakistan, or whatever asthans of whatever people..
If in the United States of America 30 different cultures are able coexist why cant we...
The real problem that I feel that is making us want Khalistan.. is the fact that the indian government is corrupt and power hungry.. If the government was to be reformed by the Sikhs. Then maybe all of india could become a better place to live in... And then nationwide poverty could be reduced, and we could have more prosperity as a country.. and perhaps become developed someday..
Wasn't khalsa created to fight tyranny and oppression..? Why don't we unite under the banner of justice and fight for the people being oppressed.... and nothing else..
Yes we were hurt in 1984.. But nothing in this world is going to change that. Asking the indian people for justice is like asking the wall of china to move... It is impossible.... asking indian government for money and protesting as like yelling at deaf 99 year old man. Asking the indian government for khalistan is like asking the mountain to start flying...

It all is of no use.. What is of real use is ourselves. What we do to help ourselves. and what we do to clean up the mess the indian government has created..
In order for anything to change.. serious economic, political, social reforms have to take place within the Sikh community itself. The structures of the gurdwaras have to change.. and the people have to fight for it..
The high drug rates in Punjab will not be resolved by a khalistan. Rather they can be resolved through the creation of job opportunities. through the opening of factories.. People should be payed to clean up the environment.. factories should open. .working conditions should improve..
Caste systems that our gurus outright rejected need to be torn apart .

Why are we stuck on a khalistan or khalsa raaj.. maybe that might happen in 50 or even 100 years.. But not now. Really. We are such a mess.
we are in a huge hole in which poverty, drugs, prostitution, female infanticide, domestic violence. Why don't we try to improve that.. create charities.. give the poor jobs.. talk to the people who have suffered. create awareness of the different operations that have taken place.... Try to reduce the suffering..

This just what I think.. I might be wrong.. But for now these are the ideas that have come inside my head that I thought would be worth sharing..

Vaheguru ji ka Khalsa
Vaheguru ji ki Fateh

Pure love does exist at Khandey Batey Ki Pahul I attended in July 2012, at AKJ hall 5, Ontario Khalsa Darbar...as Khalsa (pure Sikhs) does have Waheguru in them, thus they have achieved Khalsa Raj here, and hereafter.
The Khalistan if we do achieve it, will only succeed if Waheguru Himself is honored as ruler, King...but as it is only AKJ Gurmatbibekis respect Waheguru's Hukam.
The so called integrity negotiation by Indian govt in collaboration with world govt, is only to monitor what they term as terrorism potential suspects; what Khalsa consider as the kanio tiki path of pure love toward the King Waheguru.
bhul chuk muaf Waheguru

Jaskirat wrote;
"Khalsa is Gyan. It is the Gyan which will do Raj. All the false teachings will vanish and True Gyan i.e. Gurbani will spread around the world and Gurbani will then do the Raj. This is Khalsa Raj."

It seems that we differ on definition of "Khalsa", that is why Khalsa Raaj has been explained differently.

I wonder why Guru Hargobind Sahib and Guru Gibind Singh ji fought battles. He could have easily keep himself busy with making people "Khalsa - Gyan" and.....................................

saag
if u want raaj, u shud try running for the next upcoming electoral general assembly. i don't think sitting all day and just eating saag all day long will get you anywhere!

Sevak123,
your retort to sagg is unnecessary, it is Sikhs like u who fail to understand Khalsa, thus causing friction in Sikh community!

Sagg jio,
Guru Gobind Singh Sahib Jio, and Guru Hargobind Sahib Jio introduced battles to justify that if evil cannot be pacified by a Saint, to react with His execution, then it is righteous to defend Dharam...to uproot evil!
bhul chuk muaf Waheguru

ਸੱਗ ਜੀਓ ਜਫਰਨਾਮਾ ਕਲਗੀਧਰ ਪਾਤਿਸ਼ਾਹ ਵਲੋਂ ਵਰਤੀ ਗਈ ਗਿਆਨ ਦੀ ਖੜਗ ਸੀ ਜਿਸਨੇ ਔਰੰਗਜੇਬ ਵਰਗੇ ਬਾਦਸ਼ਾਹ ਨੂੰ ਧਰਤੀ ਤੇ ਵਿਛਾ ਦਿਤਾ |

Read Autobiography of Bhai Rama Singh jio.. >>>

[www.globalgurmat.com]

Harshwinder ji,
If Zafarnama was good enough ti end tyranny of Mughal Raaj, why did Guru Sahib pat on Banda Singh Bahadur's back to go to Punajb and fight with Mughals?

Sarb_10,
My very first post questioned that should we expect to have this Khalsa Raj appear on its own or should we plan and contribute in getting there?

If one wishes to contribute the very first step would be to walk the path of Naam Bhagtee and at the very least reach a level where one can be reasonable sure that one is not in the grip of mind's fickleness, the fish like nature of mind and that Naam has fructified and one is safe in the lap of Guru ji.
If that is not the case, ego is still in power and one is bound to fail on the path.

Sagg jee,

In a place where religious persecution is the norm and the tear drops of the suffering and the poor go unheard.. the wind itself cries and wails for the suffering of the suffered.

The drops of rain are like drops of heroin slowly waiting to annihilate.

like the power of the atomic bomb
where the ground itself shakes from the instability
and the fourwalls in which people sleep and walk are none other but walls of sand wishing they could fly away like the birds
where the iron bars of jail are the origins of injustice itself
Khalsa will come
Guru sahib is within khalsa..khalsa is within guru. Faith within guru would dictate that guru himself will come and organize khalsa to fight the battle of seemingly eternal tyranny and injustice
why worry
when you have guru sahib watching over us...
We are guru sahib's kids you know

Sagg ji I am going to take liberty and assume that you are living in a western society. If I am wrong I apologize right away.

But living here in west and actual situation is Punjab right now is VERY different. I might not be able to communicate this properly. I have been brought up in Punjab and lived all my life there until just recently. I can say from my first hand personal and cultural experience that what Punjab is going through is no different from what the whole country, India, is going through.

Most of the issues facing Punjab are not unique, things like economics, jobs, education, corruption, political equations etc etc. And 99% of the Sikh population in Punjab does NOT feel persecuted due to their religious affiliation. Their issues today are issues of the developing society all over the country. How to get their children educated and then settled in jobs, professions etc.

There is a huge transformation going on all over India Post Manmohan Singh Policies, since back in 2000. And especially since 2005 a huge transformation in societal living has been brought in by IT and telecommunication industry. Today Punjab along with India is facing challenges of changing moral standards, of easy availability of both good and the bad, of having too much money in random places and in random manner, of rising interest in getting rich easily, of younger generation getting reckless, bold and trying out all kinds of things.

Punjab , as the rest of the country, has been played in the hands of politicians. Politicians have used issues to their advantage for getting and maintaining power.

The issue of Khalistan is nowhere in the scene in Punjab. All the educated class as well as the youngsters want is a good living. And if political situation improves, if better policies are brought into play, if stricter and swifter justice is brought in all this can be achieved. The official corruption has gone down noticeably in some quarters, especially the lower clerical level. But the problem with Punjab as with all of India is that population is high and there is too much pressure on resources.

This brings me to the issue of population and resource management. That is something which is more important today than a Khalistan. What would you do with a political state of Khalistan? Who would rule it? Would there not be a democracy? Would there not be elections? And if you think that simply because you think that pure hearted Gurmukhs would be in power you are living in a Utopian dream. You have to take a look at Akali Dal and SGPC and many other Sikh institutions and see that politicians will always be what they have always been, politicians. Do you think that Akali Dal with such a huge vote bank just disappear overnight giving way to a totally new breed of Khalistani politicians and administrators?

Manpreet Badal suddenly rose to prominence in past few years. And he was a promising young (compared to others) leader. And yet nobody in Punjab voted for the party? And all the Sikh traditional vote bank brought Sukhbir Badal back to power for another 5 years. Anybody who is a sincere reader of Punjab situation would sit and ponder on what happened to Manpreet Badal. ਭਾਈ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਜੀ ਓਹਨਾਂ ਦੀਆਂ ਜ਼ਮਾਨਤਾਂ ਜ਼ਬਤ ਹੋ ਗਾਈਆਂ !! ਇਹ ਕੋਈ ਛੋਟੀ ਗੱਲ ਨਹੀਂ ! ਹੂੰਝਾ ਫੇਰ ਤਾ ਸੁਖਬੀਰ ਨੇ ! ਔਰ ਹਾਲਾਂਕਿ ਬਾਦਲ ਪਰਿਵਾਰ ਨੇ ਰੱਜ ਕੇ ਪੈਸਾ ਕੱਠਾ ਕੀਤਾ ਸੀ . Vote politics is a strange beast. How the vote turns at the ground level is something a person cannot understand just by taking a look at policies and manifestos from high above.

Sagg ji you have to ask yourself what do you mean by Khalistan in real practical sense. What kind of political, administrative and economic structure do you envision? And would you be able to deliver something entirely different from what already exists? And the general populace actually want what you are offering? If its just a change for better that what we need is a reform not a revolution.

Therefore I do believe that the first thing to be done is to find peace and enlightenment within oneself before trying to enlighten others. As I said in my last post, we have to walk the path of Naam Bhagtee first. Nobody is stopping us from doing that today in Punjab.

Sagg ji if I have said anything offensive or disrespectful, I sincerely apologize.

eyesacademic ji,
You are wrong in your statement about situation in Punjab.
Do not you see rest of India flourishing with new business opportunities and factories whereas Punjab is not getting its due share? Do not you see that educated youth is unemployed in high nos. in Punjab and they have to move to other states in order to get decent job in Public or private sector? Do not you see that Drugs are smuggled/distributed in Punjab in high nos.? Do not you see that singhs whoever speaks about justice are thrown and kept in the jails to suppress them? Situation in Punjab is worse than rest of India. The problem is that people do not understand their rights there. Have Indian govt. fulfilled its promises made to Sikhs from 1929-1947? Have indian govt. pay any heed to Anandpur resolution? have Indian Govt. implemented Rajiv-Longowal agreement? Is Water issue of Punjab has been resolved? Please watch videos on you tube where a panel is discussing that Givt. is purposely sending clean water to other states but all the polluted water stays in punjab. Have we resolved electricity issue in Punjab? Have we got Punjabi speaking area back to punjab? Have we got chandigharh back to Punjab? I am sure you are aware of an announcement was done for the transfer and it was scheduled to make a formal on 26th of January but it got cancelled only a day before it was supposed to be done. Yes, you can do naam jap, stay in your self but as soon as you talk about rights of a comman man, you will be picked up and thrown in jail. That is the difference. Oour religion teach us a lot more than only Bhagtee. Bhagtee is suppose to give you courage to stand up for others. How many of us are doing that now a days? I condemn the bhagtee which is done only for the name sake but do not change our lives. How many of us think that our head belong to Guru and they stand up for what Bhai Fauja Singh ji stood up for? How many deras were there in 1984 and how many are there now in Punjab? Do you feel any pain of for Dubhidaas in Panth and wrong decisions coming from Akaal Takht Sahib Jathedaars? Do not you see their helplessness? Could you openly do Parchar in Punjab against any of these deras? Do not you see people getting attached to them more than their Guru?
Being a Sikhs, I feel you are not free in Punjab to preach Sikh values. Punjab is going into debt day by day. Farmers are selling their land for survival. Next generation has nothing much to do. Kanjar Naach are common under the name of Punjabi culture. Punjab is the state that could be the richest state if it becomes indepedent whereas right now, "you do not have any control on your waters; you do not have any control on supply of electricity; you do not have any control on pricing your crops whereas you have to buy all raw material at the instructed price.....................................

Concept for Khalistan:
Basic one is for sure that it has to run as per Gurmat principles, Qualification based leadership has to bring back rather than no. of votes based as so called democracy has done more damage than good in india (truth is that we are being controlled as per monarchy system anyway). No body is forcing sikhs out of Punjab to move back if and when it happens and on the same token no body is being forced to move out. One thing for sure that as long as Punjab is forced to stay with India, it can not flourish to its potential. Wherever Punjabis go, they flourish; why can not they do same in Punjab? Just because the system does not support them. If we are independent, you will see the difference what punjabis can do which we can not do it right now just because forced to stcik with a country who does not match in values as us............. Punjab is gullaam as we can not export without the consent of Indian govt; we can not price our crops without Indian govt; we can not use our water as per our needs; we can not teach Glorious Sikh History in our schools.......................................................... list is too long.....

Sagg veer ji most of the problems that you noted are not essentially Sikh problems. They are problems which are fuelled by Kaljugi desires of greed of money and power and enjoyment. And for most of them the state government is responsible. They have not done their jobs well.

Sagg Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> eyesacademic ji,
> You are wrong in your statement about situation in
> Punjab.
> Do not you see rest of India flourishing with new
> business opportunities and factories whereas
> Punjab is not getting its due share? Do not you
> see that educated youth is unemployed in high nos.
> in Punjab and they have to move to other states in
> order to get decent job in Public or private
> sector?

Sagg veer ji whose fault is it? The central government or state government? Whose job is it put up more factories and industries? It is the state government. The same is the case with many states in India right now where the state government is not doing its job properly. I shall cite an example of Himachal and Haryana. The state government have done remarkable jobs by doing regular state recruitments. You might have heard of a small town called Baddi in Himachal. Its about an hour's drive from Chandigarh. Himachal government announced a tax reduced plan for attracting industries and what happened? All the industry from the tricity moved to Baddi and left Punjab as well as Haryana. Mohali was mooted as an IT city about 15 years ago but what happened? Nothing. A State government failure. Gujarat has flourished in infrastructure and industry development in past decade, all due to state government's effort.

> Do not you see that Drugs are
> smuggled/distributed in Punjab in high nos.?

Yes they are and its a big problem. You know where it is coming from? From porous Pakistan border. It is a combined failure of many agencies. Punjab is being used as a passageway for the drugs from across the border to the metro cities of India such as New Delhi and others. And guess who is supposed to put an end to this? The State government. Again this is not a Sikh problem. Drugs are rampant everywhere, Mumbai, Calcutta, Himachal, Pune. I am not saying having drugs in the state are okay. I am saying it is a systemic disease and should be dealt as it is. Its not a problem specific to Sikh community. Again I say it is the state government's failure to put an end to it.
As long as greed for money is there drugs shall be there. As an example you can look at how many punjabis, even punjabi women have been caught at borders in Canada in drug smuggling cases. This is a global human problem. And a huge one.

>Do not you see that singhs whoever speaks about
> justice are thrown and kept in the jails to
> suppress them?

Yes veer ji they are and you know who does that? The state government. The Akali government. And why? Because they want to remain in power and do not want any embarrassing situation in front of the nation and the world. They do not want to be seen as been supporting the separatists.
But do you not see how much support is being expressed from so man quarters? So its not all that hopeless. Much support is there.

>Situation in Punjab is worse than
> rest of India.
No. Do you think Bihar, Orissa, Andhra Pradesh and the seven sisters are better? I am not saying we should not worry or shut our eyes. I am saying that most of the problems are problems of Kaljugi jeevan drishti, its money, greed and power.

>The problem is that people do not
> understand their rights there.

When we say people, we need to understand the diversity we are clubbing under one word. 'People' is not a monolithic structure which has one view and one thinking level and one set of intentions. People is a club of salaried persons, shopkeepers, small businessmen, large businessmen, tradesmen, servicemen, labourers, teachers, unionists, land mafia, smugglers, thieves and what not. There is an unending variety and everyone is worried about one's own well being. Again this is a problem prevalent all over the country, not just Punjab.

>Have Indian govt.
> fulfilled its promises made to Sikhs from
> 1929-1947? Have indian govt. pay any heed to
> Anandpur resolution? have Indian Govt. implemented
> Rajiv-Longowal agreement?

No it has not. No doubt about it and mostly again its Akalis to be blamed who did not fight for these issues.

> Is Water issue of Punjab
> has been resolved? Please watch videos on you tube
> where a panel is discussing that Givt. is
> purposely sending clean water to other states but
> all the polluted water stays in punjab.

Yes water issue is there. And it should be fought for. Its again Sikh leadership's failure to consistently fight over it on political front. The issue is kept hanging for years and years until it is required to be flared up for garnering votes.

>Have we
> resolved electricity issue in Punjab?

Situation is much better as compared to the past. The farmers are getting free electricity since Akali government came to power many years ago. The electricity situation has improved a lot in all the main cities. Sukhbir announced Thermal Plants 2 years ago and it is said that work is going on. I guess some good things have be done to maintain your vote bank.

> Have we got
> Punjabi speaking area back to punjab? Have we got
> chandigharh back to Punjab? I am sure you are
> aware of an announcement was done for the transfer
> and it was scheduled to make a formal on 26th of
> January but it got cancelled only a day before it
> was supposed to be done.

Getting a Chandigarh will not make anything better for any one. I am not saying Punjab does not have a right to it. Just saying that whether it remains a UT or it is transferred to Punjab, the life shall remain as it was before. Juts to bring in another viewpoint, most of the residents of Chandigarh actually DO NOT want to merge with Punjab. Local newspapers have done surveys in the past on this. Sikh population in Chandigarh is not the majority one. Chandigarh is a mixture of people from all over the country.

Yes, you can do naam jap,
> stay in your self but as soon as you talk about
> rights of a comman man, you will be picked up and
> thrown in jail. That is the difference. Oour
> religion teach us a lot more than only Bhagtee.

Respectfully veer ji, I disagree. Our religion teaches Naam and Naam and Naam. 1430 pages full of it. The societal living is a second step which comes naturally when you become spiritually free due to Naam jaap. All the Shaheedis are all based on Naam. Without Naam nothing would have happened. Naam is the alpha, Naam is the omega.

> Bhagtee is suppose to give you courage to stand up
> for others. How many of us are doing that now a
> days? I condemn the bhagtee which is done only for
> the name sake but do not change our lives.

I agree and that is why we have to take the first step. Do bhagtee. We cannot skip it and expect success.

> How many of us think that our head belong to Guru and
> they stand up for what Bhai Fauja Singh ji stood
> up for?

Many do and how Sirsa dera was fought against is a proof that masses do actually stand up against such things. Again these issue will not dissappear by having a Khalistan. Why? because these issues stem from human mental degradation. Having a separate political state shall not help much in changing the mind of the masses. These issues shall keep on cropping up from time to time and would have to be dealt with from time to time.

>How many deras were there in 1984 and how
> many are there now in Punjab? Do you feel any pain
> of for Dubhidaas in Panth and wrong decisions
> coming from Akaal Takht Sahib Jathedaars? Do not
> you see their helplessness? Could you openly do
> Parchar in Punjab against any of these deras? Do
> not you see people getting attached to them more
> than their Guru?

Yes veer ji and what should be done to rectify this situation? Practice of true bhagti and then honest prachar. Yes you can openly preach against these deras and it has been done and is being done. I do not say it is adequate but dera Sirsa is being condemned all over punjab. In fact again the vote bank politics is supporting this dera. More needs to be done of course.


> Being a Sikhs, I feel you are not free in Punjab
> to preach Sikh values. Punjab is going into debt
> day by day. Farmers are selling their land for
> survival. Next generation has nothing much to do.

This is due to bad economic policies. This is again is a governmental failureand what we need is to support clean politicians like Manpreet Badal. What we need is new breed of leadership which can eventually replace the corrupt ones. Khalistan or no khalistan what is actually required is clean leadership.

> Kanjar Naach are common under the name of Punjabi
> culture.

Sex is one of the main instrument in the hands of kaljug. We should fight against it by all means. But this is not due to a devious scheme plotted against Sikhs by the central government. Sex sells in the market, through bombay films, through internet (most of which is western product of the porn industry). Illicit sexual relationships have increased a whole lot in the past years owing to anonymity of the modern life in big cities as well as boom in the telecommunications industry, the mobile phones, the social networking applications, the facebook, the Orkut, the Whatsapp, the We-chat and what not. This is a huge social problem and I do not know what could be done about it. But I do know that this is not something unique to Punjab. It is global.

> Punjab is the state that could be the
> richest state if it becomes indepedent whereas
> right now, "you do not have any control on your
> waters;

>you do not have any control on supply of
> electricity;

Its the state goverment which either produces or buys electricity from other states. If Sukhbir's thermal plants model is true as he proposes then it shall help greatly. But again the onus of providing electricity is on the state government.

>you do not have any control on
> pricing your crops whereas you have to buy all raw
> material at the instructed
> price.....................................
>



> Concept for Khalistan:
> Basic one is for sure that it has to run as per
> Gurmat principles, Qualification based leadership
> has to bring back rather than no. of votes based
> as so called democracy has done more damage than
> good in india (truth is that we are being
> controlled as per monarchy system anyway).

Do you mean like instituting a comprehensive test for appointments? I am not sure If I understand correctly. In India there is a test known as Indian Administrative Services examination. One who is selected is appointed as an adminstrator in various departments. And how invalid and faulty this system is, is a huge story by itself. I have worked in a government department for somewhere near a decade. This system is not honest and effective.
Again, if the votes do not decide the government then its not a democracy. Who decides the rules then? A constitution set in place? And who decides the constitution? Who shall have the power to change the constitution? A federal referendum? This is the domain of Political Science. These all are way way complex issues to be dealt trivially. And I do not know much about Political Science. But I know this. The basis for all modern troubles are rooted not in the system outside but inside in the minds, in the greed for power, money, selfishness etc.


>No body
> is forcing sikhs out of Punjab to move back if and
> when it happens and on the same token no body is
> being forced to move out. One thing for sure that
> as long as Punjab is forced to stay with India, it
> can not flourish to its potential. Wherever
> Punjabis go, they flourish; why can not they do
> same in Punjab? Just because the system does not
> support them.

You are correct. It is a systemic fault. That what I am saying. Its the system which needs to change. We need clean new leadership in politics. I 100% agree with this. What would we do with a Khalistan when we do not have leadership which is clean, educated in political science and who have brillinat minds and are experienced in all these things? That is what we need, young, clean, educated, honest people in politics.

> If we are independent, you will see
> the difference what punjabis can do which we can
> not do it right now just because forced to stcik
> with a country who does not match in values

Is this about a selected few honest Sikhs or just all of the Sikh population in Punjab? Because its not like the values in Sikh community are good and the rest of India is bad. Far from the truth. Sikh community in punjab is afflicted with greed for money, power and success as much as the rest of country. This can be seen quite clearly in the way real estate market has moved in the past few years in Punjab.

> us............. Punjab is gullaam as we can not
> export without the consent of Indian govt; we can
> not price our crops without Indian govt; we can
> not use our water as per our needs; we can not
> teach Glorious Sikh History in our
> schools...........................................
> ............... list is too long.....

Punjab is not exactly gulaam today. We are gulaam of mental degradation and corruption of our minds just like others. As long as majority of population is not interested in cleaning and uplifting their minds and living a life on spiritual values the situation shall change only at the outer level. Having a Khalistan is not a solution to all these problems. Spiritual development of the self as well as others around us is the way to go.

Fructification of truth inside us shall lead us towards correctness and success in outer living. Without inner truth coming first we cannot succeed in living truly. We cannot skip the first step and go onto the second. Naam comes first.

[youtu.be]
Apna ghar bhaven chota hi hovai apna ghar hunda .

Eyeacademic jeo,
You could easily blame everything on state and akalis but how coome you could ignore the strings attached to the centre of each and every problem Punjab is facing? You blame akalis for not fighting for their rights; it seems you have forgotton the the struggles Punjab has gone through 1947 till 1995. Before you blame akalis, you should have ponder upon the responsibility to resolve Punjab issue and specially the implementation of Rajiv Longiwal Agreement that happened at the cost of Sant Longowal. How come you could ignore centre's enemy attitude towards Punjab and blame everythign on state/Akalis? Who is responsible for Border Security? In India, state can not do much if the centre does not support it. Who decide the pricing of the crops, state or centre? Who decide SGPC Elections, state or centre? We have too much power and interference of centre in state issues.
You have to understand the situation is not any better actually it is 1000 worse than when Sant Bhindrawalae were waking us up. We are victim of hidden policies of hindu fanatics. People have no choice but to go with the system and the system is controlled by the centre govt. Punjab can survive only if it isi independent of India otherwise you will see that there will be hard to find sikhs even in Punjab.

Sagg Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Eyeacademic jeo,
> You could easily blame everything on state and
> akalis but how coome you could ignore the strings
> attached to the centre of each and every problem
> Punjab is facing? You blame akalis for not
> fighting for their rights; it seems you have
> forgotton the the struggles Punjab has gone
> through 1947 till 1995. Before you blame akalis,
> you should have ponder upon the responsibility to
> resolve Punjab issue and specially the
> implementation of Rajiv Longiwal Agreement that
> happened at the cost of Sant Longowal. How come
> you could ignore centre's enemy attitude towards
> Punjab and blame everythign on state/Akalis? Who
> is responsible for Border Security? In India,
> state can not do much if the centre does not
> support it. Who decide the pricing of the crops,
> state or centre? Who decide SGPC Elections, state
> or centre? We have too much power and interference
> of centre in state issues.
> You have to understand the situation is not any
> better actually it is 1000 worse than when Sant
> Bhindrawalae were waking us up. We are victim of
> hidden policies of hindu fanatics. People have no
> choice but to go with the system and the system is
> controlled by the centre govt. Punjab can survive
> only if it isi independent of India otherwise you
> will see that there will be hard to find sikhs
> even in Punjab.

Sagg ji I am not saying that Punjab especially Sikhs were not discriminated against by the Congress. Nor am I saying that we should forget everything about the past, like some people (Manmohan Singh) said when he visited Toronto in 2010. I am just presenting a valid view point which is not just mine but a considered opinion of many in India, that for majority of the problems its the Akalis to be blamed. Just for example I can point out that since they came in power Badal did nothing for 1984 cases, or any of the other Sikh issues.

In any case there is a difference of vantage point between you and me. It is my opinion that when deciding on the political future of a cultural group the real everyday living problems being faced by the group should be kept in view. One cannot ignore the issues of the people and push an idea onto them without first presenting a valid solution to the real problems and then generating an favourable opinion for the idea.

The problems being faced by Punjabis are education, jobs, law and order, corruption, health care, relieving pressure on various resources, generating more resources (electricity, water, services etc). These fall under the purview of the state government. The Indian constitution provides for 3 lists: the State List, the Union List and the Concurrent List. The state can make and implement laws on its own list as well as the concurrent list.

In the year 2004 (if I remember correctly) the situation was that 30,000 posts of school teachers were lying vacant in schools across Punjab. Manpreet Badal (he held the education portfolio) openly voiced his opinion on it. He also demanded that he needed strong funds for overall improvement of this infrastructure. I cant recall the figure but it was something like 3000 crores. Since then a lot of time has passed and although there have been improvements but there is still a huge lack of quality in state run schools.

That the state government can do a huge lot is amply proven by the live example of Gujarat where state government has adopted innovative policies and exceeded all expectations in areas such as buildings, roads, technology.

What we need in Punjab is a better and improved administrative machinery, an educated and modern viewpoint, and a people-first attitude and will of the state government. That shall solve 90% of the problems in Punjab.

Sagg ji you pointed out border security control in the context of drugs filtering in. I would like to point out that even if you leave aside the narcotics from across the border there is a huge network inside the state today. There is a huge market for medicinal drugs, proxyvon capsules, corex cough syrups, the spirit based inhalors and what not,, among young boys and girls. Afeem and bhukki is easily available everywhere. Do you think centre is to be blamed for this? How exactly? No veer ji. Its a failure of the state machinery. A drug network never runs without a systemic support from inside.
You have no idea on how much liquor is consumed in Punjab and this has increased manifold in past decade. This has happened by the support of Akali government. You have no idea on how much whiskey has been served as an incentive in last state elections. All this is the doing of State government. Centre cannot supply whiskey bottles under a state controlled area.

In context of SGPC elections, how does announcing the elections affect anything in the selection of the candidates. Not much. Badal supported candidates have won.

The system is not fully controlled by the centre government. The system is common for the whole country. The issues are of policies. And yes centre does have a record of having negative policies.

You have to understand that I am NOT saying that Punjab or the Sikhs were never discriminated or that 1984 never happened or that a bloody decade did not follow. This is NOT what I am saying. The things I am pointing out are valid points and what I am saying is that we should not close our eyes that politics, corruption and moral degradation is what needs attention, not a separate political structure. A political structure can be as good as the people who are running it. If the mind is corrupt the system and structure can only do so much.

One cannot understand the true situation while living at a distance. To understand what are the issues and what are the possible solutions one has to immerse oneself in the everyday living of the target population. Sikhs living outside India do not have a clear picture. Visiting Punjab for a few days does not help much. There is a big difference in the perception, thinking, needs, issues, wishes and philosophy of Sikhs in Canada and Punjab. For the majority population in Punjab religion does not mean the same thing as Sikhs from Canada and US.

The situation is not black and white. It is a multi-coloured and not easily understood. The whole of India is going through a tremendous change at economic, social, cultural, political, moral, personal, and inter-personal level. Saying that having a Khalistan is an answer similar to prescribing a medicine without understanding the current health condition of the person.

Until unless Punjab is stuck with India, Punjab can not flourish to its potential. Pleas enote majority of sikhs has not left Punjab because of leisure or money, they are forced to leave because of Punjab Police brutalities and corrupt system. Punjabi's has most potential than rest of India. Do not compare yourself to Indian standards, you have potential to rule, you have potential to control your own natural resources, u have potential to control your own exports, you have potential to highest education, you have potential to flourish as much as sikhs in Canada, USA. Only thing is stopping people over there is the corrupt Indian System and you can not change that as long as you are stuck with India. Every single decision made by Punjab govt is influenced by RSS/BJP/Congress or let us say "Aakaas behind the scene". Somebody else is pulling the strings behind the scene. People living in Punjab can not understand it but you can see few things only from distance. To have independent decision made for your state, you have to have independent thinking first. Once you have independent thinking, then only you would realize that Punjab has to be independent of India.

Vaheguru ji ka Khalsa
Vaheguru ji ki Fateh

What is independent will never be independent once plagued with constant attacks from outside sources

Having an independent Punjab isn't the panacea(cure all)for all Sikhs

Having conferences and communication with organizations that were created and equipped to deal with issues that we are faced with is key
Creating organizations to fight these forces is the key to unlocking the door of justice


We don't have the sources or the money to create our own country
Its is highly improbable that india will grants us our own sources

And do you seriously want a repeat of 1947 partition?
Haven't we learned from the brutalities that occurred during that year.
Hindus and Sikhs and muslims all killed because we couldn't accept each other and live like normal human beings

India is constantly threatened by our rise to power.

Corruption will only leave when Sikhs of influence are ambassadors of justice
and don't get greedy for financial wealth or power

Punjab brutalities/ torturing
are perhaps another reason why we should befriend the Punjabi police
to know what they are thinking
to know what in the world is going on in there heads
when they pick up the torture devices to torture our fellow brothers and sisters

We should befriend the government and stop wanting to kill it rather let us hold hands hindus, Sikhs, muslims, Christians, and strive to live in a united india...Why can't we all be united? Why does that seem so impossible( maybe even in 100 years time or 200 years time) Hindus, Sikhs, and muslims will live united and will love each other and nurture each other ....
I know this seems far off thinking
but anything is possible

BUt people with visionary minds are what imagined amazing places like the United States of America.
IF you think about it puritans ran away from England to run away from persecution
reformists faced persecution
The United States of America wasn't as great as it seems today it held slavery in its clutches for 200 years

We shackled human beings of color and treated them like they were cargo and objects

India must go through similar reforms
separating and living in distinct places Pakistan, Hindustan, and Khalistan
seems like the most illogical thing to me
Are we not all humanbeings
Is it not possible to live together and accept each other's differences
is it not possible for the indian government to not be afraid of Sikhs so threatened by Sikhs
Hey we live in US. .we say oh look there is a mosque.. cool: )Lets learn more about that religion
In india it is like:
Oh dekho gurdwara bana. Lets go destroy it because hindus are so much better than Sikhs..lets make sure Sikhism stops existing


In a utopia( ideal world) Justice should rule
we say raj karega khalsa(khalsa is that of justice)

Making Punjab independent of india( is the most dangerous thing to ask)
It will cause so much bloodshed and violence
WIth a full heart I don't think that that much bloodshed and violence is worth an independent Punjab that might or might not be corrupt

Before asking for an independent PUnjab why not make a list of singhs willing to leave their jobs and establishments and houses to go to such a country
They all have families with children going to school and they have food and water and basic necessities

A list of the names of singhs willing to leave all of that stability

Why don't we design the form of government that singhs will rule as
IT won't be the same as the indian government
why in the world arent' singhs meeting to discuss this
Maybe a singhni or two could come and help as well if she wanted to ( I HOPE) :-)
Where are we going to get the money to design the buildings
Why don't we plan that out
before begging for khalistan
if we create a master plan then maybe indian government will be more willing to give us a plot of land

Protests of begging for justice is so far off.. THe real work eneds to be done with singhs and maybe( asinghni or two) coming together
and discussing the work that needs to be done
WHILE balancing job, work, and children.
That is the challenge that needs to be met

Yelling for KHALISTAN WONT DO A THING unless we have master plan in place

Vaheguru ji ka khalsa
Vaheguru ji ki Fateh

Please forgive me for repeating.

# People in Canada are living in an illusion as far as the idea of Khalistan is concerned. No one in Punjab wants a Khalistan, simply because there is no need for it at the social, political, economic and other levels.

# The Police, the State or the Central government are NOT out for blood of Sikhs in Punjab. And nobody is gulaam in Punjab just because they are Sikhs. In other words there is NO religious persecution going on.

# The issue of corruption, general human degradation in being confused with religious persecution.

#The 'haalaat' of 1984 to 2000 (approx) were completely different from what they are today.

# The cases from the past for example Jagtar Singh Hawara, Bhai Rajoana etc are going on in the courts and they cannot be cited as example reflecting the present state of affairs of general Sikh population. It cannot be expected that courts say it is okay that you killed Beant Singh. By saying this I do not mean that we should not fight for it. What I mean is since the cases are in judicial process they have to seen as such and dealt accordingly.

# Its naive to say Sikhs are flourishing outside Punjab so we should assume that if Khalistan is created we shall flourish in Punjab too. Thats just naive thinking. Everybody flourishes in a developed nation, Gujaratis, Keralites, Bengalis and people from all over. A good political and economy expert shall explain that, I cannot, but I have enough life experience to see that this is a naive understanding.

# If you think MAJORITY of Sikhs were forced to leave Punjab due to persecution that you are very very mistaken. People have immigrated in the distant past, in the recent past and even today for entering into a developed nation economy. Some wish to go back if given a choice of occupation.

# And when we say that Punjab is lagging due to Indian System it gives the impression that INDIAN SYSTEM is corrupt and we Sikhs are suffering due to it. This again is a naive illusion. Corruption is prevalent regardless of religion and region. It occurs everywhere at Village level, block level, district level, state level and then National level. ਤੁਸੀਂ ਇਹ ਨਾ ਸੋਚੋ ਕਿ ਅਸੀਂ ਸਿੱਖ ਤਾਂ ਜੀ ਦੁਧ ਦੇ ਧੁਲੇ ਹੋਏ ਆਂ | ਜੇ ਤੁਸੀਂ ਇਹ ਸੋਚਦੇ ਹੋਂ ਤਾਂ ਫੇਰ ਅਫਸੋਸ ਕਿ ਤੁਸੀਂ ਪੰਜਾਬ ਦੇ ਪਿੰਡਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਰਹੇ ਹਿ ਨਹੀਂ , ਤੁਸੀਂ ਕੁਛ ਨਹੀਂ ਜਾਣਦੇ '
We should keep the separate issues as separate. Sagg ji you are clubbing many issues together. Corruption is NOT something given by Indian government and we are all goodie goodie.

Quote

Every single decision made by Punjab govt is influenced by RSS/BJP/Congress

ਪਹਿਲੀ ਗੱਲ ਤਾਂ ਇਹ ਹੈ ਕਿ BJP ਤੇ Congress ਦੋਨੋਂ ਵਿਰੋਧੀ ਪਾਰਟੀਆਂ ਹਨ . ਕਾਂਗਰਸ ਨੂੰ ਪੰਜਾਬ ਵਿਚ ਅੱਜ ਮਰੀ ਕੁੱਤੀ ਨਿ ਪੁਛਦੀ . ਤੇ ਜਿਥੋਂ ਤੱਕ ਬਾਜਪਾ ਦਾ ਸਵਾਲ ਹੈ ਤਾਂ ਬਾਜਪਾ ਨਾਲ ਅਕਾਲੀਆਂ ਦਾ ਗਠ-ਜੋੜ ਹੈ (ਸ਼ਾਇਦ ਤੁਹਾਨੂੰ ਪਤਾ ਨਹੀਂ ਸੀ ) ਬੀਜੇਪੀ ਤੋਂ ਬਿਨਾ ਅਕਾਲੀ ਕਮਜੋਰ ਨੇ .

ਸੱਗ ਜੀ ਐਵੇਂ ਖੁਆਬਾਂ ਖਿਆਲਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਨਾ ਰਹੀ ਜਾਓ . ਪੰਜਾਬੀਆਂ ਨੂੰ ਪੁਛੋ ਕਿ ਓਹਨਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਖਾਲਿਸਤਾਨ ਚਾਹੀਦਾ ਵੀ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਨਹੀਂ ? ਜਿਹੜੀ ਮਰਜ਼ ਨਹੀਂ ਓਹਦੀ ਦਵਾਈ ਕਾਹਦੀ ?

It is your choice to keep begging for your rights or snatch it.
"Koi kisi ko raaj na dehaen, jo lae hain, nijj ball se lehain"

It seems sikhs have not learned anything from the history and it will keep repeating itself. Sikhs will keep getting massacred every 30-40 yrs whenever they raise their voice for their rights. If you do not want to learn from your own history, atleast learn it from Jews history how to raise from rags to control the economy and govts. in different countries.

Why did Guru Sahibs started Miri Piri concept? Why did he installed Akaal Takhat? Why did Guru Sahibs fought so many wars? Why did Banda Singh Bahadar established Khalsa Raaj and started coins of Guru Sahibs? Why did Baghel Singh/Jassa Singh ji Aahluwalia/Nawab Kapur Singh steered sikhs to rule?

Do you still hope of any concesion to Punjab inspite of the fact that Rajv Longowal agreement got signed but never got implemented? Were Sant Bhindrawalae wrong in saying if Indian Army attack Darbar Sahib then sikhs would have no choice but to fight for Khalistan? If any body has any doubt about establishment and success of Punjab/Khalistan as an independent country, they do not have any trust in Guru Sahib and their potential.

I strongly believe that only and only choice we as sikhs have is to keep fighting for in an independent country of Khalistan first; rest Guru Sahib will take care.

Were Bhai Randhir Singh ji wrong when he said, "Khalsa Raaj will get established for sure"

Yes, we need to fix our system first. Instead of voting/election system; we have to go back to Panj Piyarae system. Bhai Sahib had mentioned that when Panthic control will be under Five Jot vigaasi Singhs, Khalsa will rise to highest.