Rattan Mala?

Does this mean that Shabads contained in Janam Sakhis but not Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji were written by a Dokhi of the Panth?

Quote

Does this mean that Shabads contained in Janam Sakhis but not Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji were written by a Dokhi of the Panth?

If there is Gurbani of 9 Guru Sahibaan, not contained in Siri Guru Granth Sahib jee, then we will have to assume that Siri Guru Granth Sahib jee is not complete (Guru Sahib Maaf Karan) and we would have to assume that Siri Guru Arjun Dev jee could not include whole Gurbani (Guru Sahib Maaf karan). How can there be Shabads bearing the "Nanak" Mohar, out of Siri Guru Granth Sahib jee?

Since no Sikh would dare use "Nanak" Mohar for his own writing, we have to assume that non-Gurbani composition that contains "Nanak" as Mohar Chaap, has been written by non-Sikhs.

Kulbir Singh

Good points! From the sakhis I have read Sri Guru Ji responds to the Yogis , Faqirs, etc , the conversations do not end with the mohar " Nanak" instead the conversation starts with Nanak Responds/answers and this is the outlay with an answer - response format. Also from what I can remember where there is no conversation the pauri still does not end with the mohar " nanak" On the other hand Rattan Mala does end with the Mohar " nanak" and it seems strange that Sri Guru Ji would omit this from Sri Guru Granth Sahib JI had it been Gurbani.

It seems this Ratanmala must've been written to mock Siri Sidh Ghosht. Why else would someone write something that praises and promotes hatth yogaa?? Someone wanted to challenge Guru Sahib by writing ratanmala. Good thing Panth took a firm decision on this and had it removed. Now only one composition is left to be removed, which from the looks of it seems to condemn or challenge the style/chaal Gurbaani has been written in, which is in Raags. Let's hope the Panth clarifies on this issue as well.

I double checked the Janam Sakhis and I noticed that there are many pangtis that do end with the Mohar " Nanak". For example, when Sri Guru Ji was in Medina and talking to the Muslims he responded to Muslims by saying he is a Muslim who obeys Gods will and is merficul to all beings. The pangti ends with the mohar " Nanak":
ਰਬ ਕੀ ਰਜ਼ਾਇ ਮੰਨੇ ਸਿਰ ਉਪਰ ਕਰਤਾ ਮੰਨੇ ਆਪਿ ਗਵਾਵੈ . ਨਾਨਕ ਸਰਬ ਜੀਆ ਮਿਹਰੰਮਤਿ ਹੋਇ ਤਾਂ ਮੁਸਲਮਾਨ ਕਹਾਵੈ -


The shabads that Sri Guru Ji recited in Arabia have really never been questioned and many people regard such discussions as authentic. I remember "Soora Parivar" magazine published a pamphlet on Rehat Maryada and they too quoted shabads from Sri Guru Jis discussion in Arabia which are not included in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. After further review of the Janam Sakhis I see it can be a possiblity that Rattan Mala was a conversation perhaps in one of the sakhis.

Sevak123- Nothing in Rattan Mala pertains to or supports Hatth Yoga. You are right in saying Panth was right in not including it into Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as Sri Guru Ji himself that did not include it and anyone who questions the authoirty of the Panth is a veymukh, but I dont know if the panth has banned this bani all together and attributed to the likes of Udasis or Meenas????

Very valid points. Definitely any baani which is not written by Guru Sahibs and yet uses 'Nanak' is using deceit as a medium of propagation. Even if it is simlar to Gurmat it is still deceitful:

ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਿਤ ਕਰਹਿ ਰਸਨਾ ਕਹਿਆ ਕਛੂ ਨ ਜਾਣੀ ॥ ਚਿਤੁ ਜਿਨ ਕਾ ਹਿਰਿ ਲਇਆ ਮਾਇਆ ਬੋਲਨਿ ਪਏ ਰਵਾਣੀ ॥

Even in case of compositions which are not claimed to be Gurbani there is a problem of trust with the message conveyed. Since in poetry often poets use words for aggrandizement and praise, there is no way to see if these words are actually true or just used for the sake of catering to the poetical aspect. For example lets say a poet says:

"O Lord your name is the sweetest of the sweet"

Now this could be a statement which has been written by the poet just as a form of poetical praise rather than actual and real experience of the sweetness of Lord's name.
On the other hand in Gurbani whatever is said has come out of actual experience.

I just realized the above shabad I posted is included in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji its just quoted differently. But still there are many shabads in the Janam Sakhis which include the Mohar " Nanak" and are not included in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji??

Here is an example of what I was previous talking about. The following pangti which was recited in a long conversation to Rukan Deen where Sri Guru Ji uses verses from asa di vaar such as
ਘੜਿ ਭਾਂਡੇ ਇਟਾ ਕੀਆ ਜਲਦੀ ਕਰੇ ਪੁਕਾਰ ॥
In this converstation, Sri Guru Ji also mentions how the Muslims cry out during their times of prayer, they play their musical instruments and dance to their tunes but all is false without his Name. The verses are very similar to the verses in Sri Asa Di Vaar
ਕੇਤੇ ਨਚਹਿ ਮੰਗਤੇ ਗਿੜਿ ਮੁੜਿ ਪੂਰਹਿ ਤਾਲ ॥

The conversation of Rukan Deen is not included in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji but is included in Janam Sakhis . In this conversation Sri Guru Ji mentions without Bhagati then all conduct is evil, and one should recite Gods name with a pure heart. In one of the pauris Sri Guru Ji ends with the mohar " nanak".

ਬਿਨਾ ਇਬਾਦਤ ਬੰਦਗੀ ਹੋਰ ਅਮਲ ਸ਼ੈਤਾਨ . ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਉ ਖੁਦਾਇ ਦਾ ਦਿਲ ਹਛੇ ਮੁਖਿ ਲੇਇ

It is well known that Sri Guru Ji had deep conversation with Rukan Deen. The pangti " Raj Karega Khalsa" comes from a conversation between Rukan Deen and Sri Guru Ji.

Quite agree with Kulbir Singh Ji.

If a bani is not in Guru Granth Sahib then simply," it can't be a Baani of any of our first 9 Guru Sahibaan." and if you have a doubt then I am afraid you are doubting Guru Arjun Dev Ji Maharaj.

Bhul Chul Muaff

WJKK WJKF Sukhdeep Singh,

I realize this is going off-topic, but regarding Bhai Bala’s Janamsakhi, I refer you to “Janamsakhi Tradition – An Analytical Study” by Dr. Kirpal Singh : Janamsakhi Tradition - An Analytical Study

The version of Bhai Bala’s Janamsakhi we have today is a heavily edited version whereby all offensive material has been removed.

Dr. Kirpal Singh managed to locate a copy of Bhai Bala’s Janamsakhi written during the time of Guru Har Rai Sahib Ji. In it was not just one line about Baba Handal, but five Sakhis in which it was stated that Baba Handal would be born after Guru Nanak Dev Ji and that he would be a more powerful and glorious person. There was also a Sakhi stating that Guru Nanak Dev Ji had married a Muslim woman – probably added to justify the marriage of Bidhi Chand, son and successor of Baba Handal, to a Muslim woman.

WJKF

Navroop Singh

Bhai Navroop Singh Ji,

Thanks for the link . The book is kind of long and when I have time I will check it out. Im sure Kirpal Singh is saying the same thing Professor Sahib Singh is saying such as the Janam Sakhis are fake because there is no evidence of anyone name Bala in our history nor does it mention it in Bhai Gurdas Ji Vaars. The second reason is that the sakhis praises handal.

These are weak points. No where in history besides Bhai Bala Janam Sakhis does it mention anything about the great Gursikh "Bibi Nanaki Ji" should we conclude there is no such person? Secondly, the verses about Mardana are simply stating Mardana played the Rabab the verses are not a description on who accompanied Sri Guru Ji. Also, in the Janam Sakhis it comes apparent that Bala did not accompany Sri Guru Ji on every single travel as some sakhis say Mardana and Sri Guru Ji went to so and so while others sakhi say the three of us ( Mardana, Bala, and Sri Guru Ji ) went to so and so location.

I have not come across sakhis where their is praise of Handal and putting him ahead of Sri Guru JI . 80% of the sakhis I have read are the focused on the importance of japping Naam. If there are 4 or 5 passages which praise Handal why should we doubt the whole text which is quite lengthy. Anybody could have included these passages at a later date. Im not going to deny our sacred history and traditions over a few editions or adaptations from some mischevious characters. Most of what we know about Sri Guru Ji comes from these sakhis. Most of what we know about rehat from the early period of Sakhi come from this text. Noway am I going to doubt this text. I love reading these sakhis and they bring much joy in my life. I can careless what a doubting tom thinks about these sacred stories which are pure anand!

I dont have a problem with someone claiming Bhai Bala Jis Janam Sakhis have been tampered with, but to say the text was created after Sri Guru Arjan Dev Ji and no person such as Bala Ji ever existed is ludricous!

WJKK WJKF Bhai Sukhdeep Singh,

It's a book worth reading; Dr. Kirpal Singh presents each Sakhi as fully as possible by cross-referencing all available Janamsakhi's.

Regarding Bhai Bala's Janamsakhi, I'm not trying to detract from or diminish the actual Sakhi's themselves, but we should be mindful of a Janamsakhi's origins. Kavi Santokh Singh, Bhai Vir Singh etc. have edited Bhai Bala's Janamsakhi so that it complies with Gurmat; I don't have a problem with this. Bhai Bala's Janamsakhi is without a doubt the most popular Janamsakhi embedded within the mind's of all Sikhs, and there are wider implications resulting from this. The primary one I think is the Kattak vs. Vaisakh debate. All Janamsakhi's - incl. Bhai Mani Singh's, Mirhban's and other sources give Guru Nanak Dev Ji's birth as happening in Vaisakh, except Bhai Bala's Janamsakhi, which gives Kattak. Other dates in Bhai Bala's Janamsakhi have been shown to be incorrect/contradictory, so why have we adopted this date in the face of all other records?

WJKF

Navroop Singh.

Bhai Navroop Singh Ji,

The truth of the matter is Sri Guru Angad Dev Ji in his infinite wisdom knew the importance of recording our history at a time when panthic dokhis were writing and distorting our history. To accomplish this task he had Bhai Bala Ji narrate the sakhis while Paira Mokham the most fluent person in Gurmukhi at the time would scribe the text. We cannot forget our history a nation who forgets their history eventually loses their identity. Why wouldnt Sri Guru Ji record our history when others who opposed Sikhi were wriring history of SIkhi? Bhai Bala Janame Sakhis is a great historical piece which has been perserved in the panth for many years. We can learn much about the avastha and mentality the Puratan Gursikhs had from reading it. We are not interested in a debate about the date of Sri Guru Nanak DEv Jis birth as we happily celebrate both dates

Kulbir Singh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Does this mean that Shabads contained in Janam
> Sakhis but not Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji were
> written by a Dokhi of the Panth?
>
> If there is Gurbani of 9 Guru Sahibaan, not
> contained in Siri Guru Granth Sahib jee, then we
> will have to assume that Siri Guru Granth Sahib
> jee is not complete (Guru Sahib Maaf Karan) and we
> would have to assume that Siri Guru Arjun Dev jee
> could not include whole Gurbani (Guru Sahib Maaf
> karan). How can there be Shabads bearing the
> "Nanak" Mohar, out of Siri Guru Granth Sahib jee?
>
>
> Since no Sikh would dare use "Nanak" Mohar for his
> own writing, we have to assume that non-Gurbani
> composition that contains "Nanak" as Mohar Chaap,
> has been written by non-Sikhs.
>
> Kulbir Singh


Veer jeeo
In our ardaas, we daily say : Nanak Naam charrdikalla tere bhaane sarbat da bhallaa.