Ivory=Unethical !

I have been noticing that many Gursikhs are purchasing Ivory made shasters these-days. Plus, they look "trendy" to own.


But where does it come from? Its either from elephants or rhinos. Its never taken without killing these animals. Yes, killing animals is involved and illegal smuggling/trade.

Here is the reality behind the "coolness" of owning such shasters:




How they are killed?


Imagine how many were killed:


Say no to Ivory made shaster!

Chota veer

Piyasi Chatrik Ji,

I totally understand where you are coming from, & I also believe that the Puratan Shastar where made with wood for the handles or full Sarbloh.
But what about shoes which are made from Leather? those cows are also killed for their skin to make garments for us?

Just Some Thoughts?


Amanjot Singh

AmanjotSingh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Piyasi Chatrik Ji,
>
> I totally understand where you are coming from, &
> I also believe that the Puratan Shastar where made
> with wood for the handles or full Sarbloh.
> But what about shoes which are made from Leather?
> those cows are also killed for their skin to make
> garments for us?
>
> Just Some Thoughts?
>
>
> Amanjot Singh

Indian leather tanners work with dead animals. Ask your parents.

This post is only to answer to Amanjot Singh veerjee. I will leave the other post for more learned individuals.

Veerjee, if you know a certain product is leather, made by child labor, or somehow seems unethical, don't buy it. Consider an alternative.

Many times, we are unaware of products, in which case, you can't go around with a guilty conscious, on the other hand though, if you are aware of this,

then buy an alternative product, wear bana if you can, and as far as shoes and jackets are concerned, buy simple, buy local =)

-Upkaar Singh

Quote
AmanjotSingh
But what about shoes which are made from Leather? those cows are also killed for their skin to make garments for us?

yes, that is true and that is why a lot of gursikhs avoid wearing leather

Sukhsehaj Kaur

How about tabla skin?

Quote
AmanjotSingh
But what about shoes which are made from Leather? those cows are also killed for their skin to make garments for us?
Just Some Thoughts?

Now, in Punjab villages(all over India too) people had cows and buffalos , when their animal died they had a special place outside he village where the the dead animal used to be thrown away. This is where the vultures use to eat them. The Chamaars(low cast ones who worked with animal skin) use to go to skin the carcass to be used for their leather product.

This is how leather bags for water were made. Their bones too were used i believe for many purposes. But, they died naturally. This is why Gurbani says:
ਨਰੂ ਮਰੈ ਨਰੁ ਕਾਮਿ ਨ ਆਵੈ ॥
When a man dies, he is of no use to anyone.

ਪਸੂ ਮਰੈ ਦਸ ਕਾਜ ਸਵਾਰੈ ॥੧॥
But when an animal dies, it is used in ten ways. ||1||


Back to Ivory products, many are flocking into Nihang Baldev Singh amritsar's place in amritsar to buy them.....Say No to unethical shaster!

Chota veer

These days what you eat, what you wear and what you sleep on... no one knows what is ethical or not. So much commercialisation has happened. How can we be sure that the skin or ivory used to make these items is not from animals that died naturally. We can get into too much of don't this, don't do that but the borderline is that we can't really be sure of anything being ethical or unethical. Best is to concentrate on the basic principles of rehat that include bhajan bandagi, 5 kakari rehat and sarabloh pehra. For rest of the things we can only pray to Guru sahib for guiding us and saving us from use of any unethical products.

For the most part ivory is indeed gained by cruelty to elephants and rhinos; so for this reason, I totally agree with Chatrik jee in avoiding stuff made from it. In case of ivory, the animal is killed just for it but in case of leather, an animal is not killed just for it.

Kulbir Singh

Quote
akal74
These days what you eat, what you wear and what you sleep on... no one knows what is ethical or not. So much commercialisation has happened. How can we be sure that the skin or ivory used to make these items is not from animals that died naturally. We can get into too much of don't this, don't do that but the borderline is that we can't really be sure of anything being ethical or unethical. Best is to concentrate on the basic principles of rehat that include bhajan bandagi, 5 kakari rehat and sarabloh pehra. For rest of the things we can only pray to Guru sahib for guiding us and saving us from use of any unethical products.

I was just explaining to the Singh how it was obtained back on old day, current day standards I am not sure of. All in all, bibeki Singhs even avoid leather products too, as I have seen in India.

Chota veer

Not maha papi jee

from the meagre understanding of tabla this daas has.

Tabla skins are derived from the skin of dead animals who suffer natural death.

This was confirmed by the Gulu Music Gharaanaa in Delhi, from where daas used to purchase and service my tabla joriaaan during my time in india

This seems to be the method employed by most music instrument manufacturers in India, as along with unethical,

it also doesn't seem to be the kind of culture that is preached, where killing of animals is allowed at all.

Rest Guroo Saheb knows best, again, there are ethical people/gursikhs who belong to this profession, and if anything, one must obtain their services, if the service seeker has negative information about another business or product.

-Upkaar Singh

Lot of people believe that Gursikhs should not use Leather or some form of animal byproduct. The point is not whether Tabla Skin is from animal which was killed or died a natural death. The point is that if you are living in this world you cannot simply opt not to use * Leather* or other animal byproduct. I am sitting in my office on the chair where the cover of th handles are *Leather* . Should I worry about how this leather was obtained? I understand you can restrict yourself for buying leather shoes, belt , jacket etc but you cannot always restrict usage of animal byproducts/leather and in my view point its nothing anti-gurmat about it.

Having said that,I agree that if you can restrict yourself ( like in the case of Ivory for Kirpans) you should definitely do so but again sometimes *wood* is also obtained by deforestation which has been deterimental on wild life to the point that lots of species which was helping the natural eco system are on the point of extinction which is also quiet unethical.Again it can also be seen as *Guru Sahib's Bhana*

Btw, good post overall by *Pyasi Chatrik* since I was planning to get some shastars from the same place.

Bhul Chuk Dhi Khima

Vaheguroo Jee Kaa Khalsaa
Vaheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!

Not maha_papi jee,

what you said is 100% spot on.

When daas spoke of avoidance and choosing alternatives, I meant of course the factors that are under our control.

If we buy a chair for home, then buy non-leather, if your office provides leather, then don't start throwing a fit, just sit.

When we go to India, in majbooree, we take off our Shree Saheb, hence, in a similar way, consider it a majboori, but if you don't like it, don't make it a dhill at home.

If we start fussing over chairs, we won't have any time to do paath.

I hope you understand now, when I spoke of avoidance and alternatives, it was about things we can control.

I remember a post on here a while back, where Bhai Kulbir Singh jee wrote, that red and green is prohibited for khalsaa bana, dastaars, guroo sahebs room etc.

He also wrote, that taking this philosophy into buying cars, pens or as such materials is stretching it too far. Let's apply it accordingly here.

-Upkaar Singh