Inder Gagga/Kulbir SIngh debate

Yesterday I watched the discussion between Inder Gagga and Kulbir Singh Ji. Reference was made to previous discussions in the videos, were these or any meetings post this video recorded?

Also I could not find part 4 of the video, can someone please post the link?

Here is the link to the playlist

[www.youtube.com]

Waheguru forgive me but how is Sikhi to be united and florish if Gurmukhs unbelievably debate as in initial post video as though opinion of mortals is more crucial than showing utter humility and love..per Gurbani?

Maha Papi Ji,

At the time of posting I managed to watch all the parts but part 4.

KS, thats what we're becoming; intellectually focused debate artists. The essence of teaching, religion or a panth does not take long to lose in the age of kali-yuga. We have become predominately focused on external matters, while focus on inward journey suffers. And on that note, it is time for this paapee to repeat the name of his beloved lord - by his wonderful grace

yes rsg11 Jio,
as such I sadly cower within for answers from Him and Him only, as seems like true Gems of Gursikhi are dwindling by the minute in ocean of kalyug, debate, status, spirituality/ Gurmukh status...

KS jee

How is Sikhee suppose to flourish when people make there own views facts such as saying Panchmesh Pita Sri Guru Arjan Dev Sahib jee fainted on Thatee Thavee?

If Gursikhs sit like this and discuss issues rather than slander and get into physcial confrentations it is much better. This format of vichaar is much needed today.

Vista Jio,
With much due respect, if they dare to slander brahmgyani Guru Arjan Dev Jio, why even bother to clear such evil mind doubts...HE reminds us in Asa Di Var...mukhey nal na lujiyeh..

Ks jee

Let's look at history, in 1877 Satkaarjog Giani Ditt Singh jee renowned Gursikh Vidhvaan held in-depth discussions with eminent religious scholars like Sadhu Dayanand and others. At that time Arya Samajist where trying to swallow Sikhee into Hinduism, Gursikhs tirelessly did Seva for major reforms within the Khalsa Panth, to show that we a Niaara Kaum the movement was known as the Singh Sabha movement .

Those Samajist had shallow thoughts and big doubts on Sikhee but even then Gursikhs rose to debate with them in a huge public gathering. Giani Ditt Singh jee held three such discussions with Swami Daya Nand . The details of these discussions are available in his book Sadhu Daya Nand Naal Mera Sambad. Swami Dayanand stood exposed in all these discussions. This made a great impression of Giani ji on the listeners and he became very popular and acceptable among Sikhs. His methods and veechar helped with Sikhs understanding they are Niaara and this got rid of the doubts within the Sikhs mind of that time.

Likewise what took place with Ghagga isn't any different, sometimes there is need to publicly meet and speak. Shabaash to those Gursikhs who where there.

I agree with all said in your last post Vista Jee,
But weak minds will always sway and forget that we should maintain faith only in Truth of Gurbani, and that Brahmgyanis are indestructible emotionally, physically, mentally...the list goes on..
Sikhi is in downhill only for those who doubt...which is why Gurbani advises Gem Gurmukhs to not live amongst them or deal with them (even if they are family, or our own sikh kaum)...which to me explains why Guru Nanak Dev Jio preached to others, instead of starting with His very doubtful wife, and son...

Well said KS. Truth is always truth - time cannot bend, break or change it.

Sitting back and doing nothing is simply not an option when Gursikhs here any words or see any actions that go against Gurmat. What do you propose we sit back and let these missionary types belittle Guru Sahib and twist Gurbani to suit their needs? In most instances they do not welcome open debate as they know they will walk away with tail between legs.

Singhs from Tapoban also debated on Dasam Granth Sahib with very little preparation and clearly won the debate. We should support these Gursikhs and not worry about how many nindaks are out there. These weak minds are wreaking havoc and leading masses astray with their blasphemous versions of Gurmat.

If we watch the video you will see Gagga conceding to many points, and this can only be good. Whether he held true to his word I dont know.

True Unjaan Jio,
Beloved Gems have protected honor of Guru Maharaj with Shaheedi in past (1978)..and debate is safe as long as not in India so Gem Gurmukh lives will keep inspiring, enlightening us..my humble salutations to Tapoban Gems, and my sincere apologies for bhul chuk

KS please see the following link on when it is the best time and worst time to remain quiet >> LINK

"One should keep quiet, unless of course, it is a Panthik issue or if it is a question of honour of Panth."

Going back to the original question, were any subsequent meetings held with Inder Gagga and if so what was the outcome?

There has been no contact with Prof. Ghagga on my side. Prior to the recorded debate, I had one debate with Prof. Ghagga in which apart from the issues discussed in the recorded debate and some other misc. issues, the unnecessary and uncalled attacks on Sant Gurbachan Singh Bhindranwale were discussed briefly.

For me the debate was not about winning or losing but was to defend the Gurmat principles we hold dear e.g. Naam Abhyaas, the greatness of Guru Sahibaan and bonafide Sikh spiritual personalities. While debating with Prof. Ghagga, we tried our best to keep the atmosphere warm and loving. I enjoyed this debate thoroughly.

Kulbir Singh

...and my humbles salutations to you too Manmander Singh Jio

bhul chuk muaf for typing error, should be humblest...and I reacted out of concern for honor of Gursikhi too..

KS Jee,

Many topics are not worth debating over or pursuing.

In this case, there is a praanee, who was openly slandering naam abhyaas calling it koorh kamaee, and there were many many people following him and listening to his preaching.

In this case, we had an individual slandering the forming essence of sikhee itself, and brainwashing others, it had to be pursued.

Singhs went as a jathaa, sat down and spoke to him.

There doesn't seem to be anything wrong in the format of the debate or the approach, rather I think it would have been bad if singhs had let this individual carry-on without approaching him and questioning his belief.

Will we not approach individuals who are preaching that keeping hair is not necessary for sikhee ?

-Upkaar Singh

I agree Upkaar Singh Jio, but my point is that will not change their their set method of thinking...although they may, at debate concede..thus, Gurbani reminds that a dog's tail cannot be altered from what He had ordained..?

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

"...but my point is that will not change their their set method of thinking..."

One of the intents of debate is to present both sides and let any viewer or listener make a decision. This debate served that purpose - it presented both sides and any viewer of this video will make his/her own decision on what is Gurmat and what is manmat based on the information provided. The same is done in political debates - politicians aren't aiming to change their opponent's mind, but rather present your side so the audience can make an informed decision.

KS jee, that is exactly the maslaa I'm trying to tackle here, that if Ghagga tail, so to speak wants to remain curled, by all means it can.

Singhs approached Ghagga so he could re-call a written publication by the name of naam abhyaas koorh kamaayee, and stop doing parchar of anti gurmat elements.

On an individual level he is free to pursue whichever philosophy he finds right.

Understand jee ?

-Upkaar Singh

Understood Upkar Singh Jio

Found some background info on Ghagga and Kala Afghana from another site. Good to see that his brother at least is not opposed to Dasam Granth Sahib.

Bhai Harkinder Singh,

In winter of 1992, I was visiting village of my in-laws known as village Ghagga in Patiala Distt. This village is mostly inhabited by Pannus who migrated from Amritsar Distt long time ago. Inder Singh Ghagga was known as Bhai Inder Singh Pannu in those days. One mornimg, I went to the Gurdwara Sahib to listen to (Aapnay Gharaan 'chon)does katha in the Gurdwara Sahib daily. As I walked in, I noticed about 3-4 bodies (mostly puranay sareer) sitting as listeners (Sarotaas) with Loiies around their bodies. I sat till the end of Katha, and Bhai Inder Singh spoke to me for about 15 minutes afterwards. In this conversation, hebasically expressed a very keen desire to visit Canada, and wanted me to send him a sponsorship through our Gurdwara Sahib. I was not impressed withhis Katha at all because I noticed he knew only surfacial meanings, and had no depth in his elaborations of the Hukamnama that day. Infact I found it very empty and meanings stretched with no linkages in his conclusions. I walked back home and asked my brother-in-law about Bhai Inder Singh's background andas to how he became a Kathakar out of these illetrate Pannus of Ghagga.

My brother-in-law told me that Harpal and Inder's family did not have much land and were very poor. Their father worked hard to send his children to school. Inder Singh, the older son was studying in matric and got a job as a driver with Electricity Board, Bathinda office. The younger Harpal was smarter and went to Punjabi Uni to do his P.hd. This way I came to know that Inder Singh Panuu and Harpal Singh Pannu of Pbi Uni were real brothers.

Inder Singh, however was charged & convicted with theft/stealing from Electricity Board Bathinda and was dismissed from his Driver's job. He returned back to Ghagga. After that Inder Singh took correspondence courses with Missionary College Ludhiana, and upon completion of his diploma, started doing Katha and make his both ends meet. The local Gurdwara offered him a fixed salary to extend help to Inder Singh's family. This much I came to know at that time. The matter rested at that. Many years passed by, till Kala Afghana controversy started circulating.

As destiny has it, I met Kala Afghana here in London as well few years before his black-writings were published. Kala Afghana was staying with his daughter, who's husband was a physician in local hospital. Interestingly enough KA gave me the first draft of his book Bipran Ki Reet printed on dot-matrix printer (I still have that) to look it over, and offer my opinion. I found his writing so boring that I never bothered about it, and dismissed it as crazy cravings of an old frustrated man who was angry at Sikhs that his relative who was a Kirtania got killed by Khardkoos.

KA went away to California and things were quiet for some years. Suddenly, his books started appearing and controversies were seen in the papers. I found out about KA's conviction in molestation case of Victoria Gurdwara and published the judgement on the Gurmat Learning Zone for the first time. This bombshell came as a surprise to KA followers. At first they did not believe it and doubted its authenticity. When confirmed, they started putting up another argument that what matters is not his chracter but what he says about Gurmat, and the service he has rendered in exposing Bipar influence upon Sikh way of life. I have not yet published KA's shameful act in the Gurdwara in Saskatoon, and he received a severely worded warning from Sangat to not repeat such things. His followers can ask him directly about this, if they think he will tell the truth. Anyways, let us continue...

The dead stories became alive again recently as I heard one Prof. Inder Singh Ghagga appearing as member of Sri-Dasam-Granth-Hate-Brigade, and Hindu-Hate-Brigade (like admirers of KA such as Joginder Singh Gurtej Singh). I never knew who is this Prof. Ghagga, but the word "Ghagga", being village of my in-laws, made me curious to find out who was this guy. When I checked further, I found out that this man was the Inder Singh Pannu, I met long time ago in Ghagga Gurdwara - Dr. Harpal Singh Pannu being his younger brother. The story became more dramatic as I learned this:

I spoke to Dr. Anokh Singh ji of Bathinda, and asked him if he knows Prof. Ghagga. He confirmed further that he is brother of Prof Harpal Singh Pannu. I said but Pannu's views about Sri Dasam Granth are diametrically opposite to that of Inder Singh. How is it possible to have this relationship? Dr Anokh Singh added that he met Dr. Harpal Singh at some Sikh gathering and asked similar question as I had. He asked him if he was Inder's real brother, by the same parents. Harpal Singh confirmed but with a few very interesting qualifying remarks. Dr Harpal Singh Pannu said:

1. Dr Sahib, Pirthyaa was born in the same Guru's house hold.

2. I (Dr Harpal Singh Pannu) had a small modest dwelling in Patiala that I built after a long time working as a professor at the Uni. Whereas, my brother Inder, who is Matric educated, owns a kothi in Ludhiana.

This is how Dr Harpal Singh Pannu responded to Dr. Anokh Singh's shocking questions. By the way, this Dr Anokh Singh was present in Toronto area location where about 150 Singhs had assembled to have a debate with Prof Ghagga on points of contention. Prof. Ghagga never appeared there as already reported in the press.

I asked Dr Anokh Singh about the title Prof. that Inder Singh Ghagga uses. He explained that a Gurmat College was started across from canal in village Jawaddi by some Gurmukh piara by donating his ancestral land. That man has died. Inder Singh got job to teach Gurmat there after receiving his diploma from Ludhiana Sikh Missionary College's correspondence course. This is how he found a short cut to Professorship as opposed to his brother Dr Harpal Singh Pannu.

For reader's knowledge I would suggest two books: One is titled Kalaey Afganay Dey Kalay Leikh. This book is a very good collection of articles dealing with Kala Afghana's anti-Sikh writings. Dr Anokh Singh has written excellent articles in this. (Dr Anokh Singh has written one small book on Gurbani Grammer as well, worth acquiring as well.) Second book that deals very thoroughly the KA issue and deals with the filth of KA systematically, is "Sabh Dushat Jhakh Maraa" by Kanwar Ajit Singh of Patiala. This is a must read for all the KA supporters, and those who seek truth of Gurmat, Guru-Gyan-Bhauray.