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relation of 5 vices

Posted by singhni 
relation of 5 vices
August 09, 2012 10:32PM
Are 5 vices related to each other... If you have kaam then you have krodh..if you have lobh then you automatically have moh...and if you have moh then you have ahunkaar????
Any gurbaani lines...???

....How does one maintain nimartha??? Like I try to do seva every sunday at gurdwara for a little bit... But is there anything else.?? I realized when I don't do seva... then my sense of happiness that comes from doing paath or whatever just goes away.. Like I become proud that I did paath. So then I realize homai attacked me..So then all whatever i did just went to the garbage can.. So when I don't get a chance to go to gurdwara what should I do? Sometimes I become really busy.. I have 2 many things 2 do all the time...
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Re: relation of 5 vices
August 10, 2012 01:29PM
Yes all five are related to one another. BHai Rama SIngh Ji mentions when one does seva they should also be doing naam abhyiaas internally as well this way they will be saved from haumi. You should read his book he gives really good advice on living a gurmukh jeevan.
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Re: relation of 5 vices
August 10, 2012 01:37PM
Please refer to the following link under Gurmat Bodh section of this site:

[www.gurmatbibek.com]

Kulbir Singh
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Re: relation of 5 vices
August 10, 2012 09:00PM
Okay thank you..

I have another question..a person without ego never thinks that he is without ego?
kaam, krodh, lobh, moh, and ahunkaar are always after you...doing naam abhiyaas loudly in morning..helps with..
but then they come back...then you do more naam abhiyaas and then they come back..and so on so forth.and then eventuallly kaam,krodh,lobh,, moh, and ahunkaar go away? But then they come back again... if you stop doing naam abhiyas and following rehat...The sarabhloh bibeki protects you from kaam, krodh, lobh,moh, and ahunkaar... Without that one's vices dont stop bothering them... These vices make me feel like a monster sometimes..These vices make people monsters....Without bibeki you cannot protect yourself from it...there is just no way...I mean this is confusing...because doesn't gyaani ji at gurdwara... I mean he knows alot of things.. so that is why people call him gyaani jee.. And that gyaani jee called sarabhloh bibeki bhramanvaad or what not.. But I don't see a way around anything without bibek and simran...

I don't understand the whole shabad homai vs. worldy homai... I got lost when you started talking about how homai causes one to build house or have babies or what not. how we should come back to shabad homai...which I dont know...
But the other parts of the article answered my questions perfectly thank you...
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Re: relation of 5 vices
August 11, 2012 01:40AM
I findit is very interesting to understand the intrisic meanings of the word "HAUMAE"

In different context this word can have different meanings.This word can be a reference

for what we call as "EGO" but in other contxt this word can refer to "EXTREME ATTACHMENT"

for specfic thing or matter.

One can learn from Gurbanee that HUAMAE is stated to be the cause of Birth and

rebirths and its cycle.

The word of GuR only can bring HAHMAE to a level where one is freed from this cycle of Births

and rebirths.

Bhul Chuk Maaf

Daas

Prakash.S.Bagga
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Re: relation of 5 vices
August 11, 2012 08:41AM
Thank you
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Re: relation of 5 vices
August 11, 2012 01:41PM
Quote

I mean this is confusing...because doesn't gyaani ji at gurdwara... I mean he knows alot of things.. so that is why people call him gyaani jee. And that gyaani jee called sarabhloh bibeki bhramanvaad or what not.. But I don't see a way around anything without bibek and simran...

Sikhi is not about looking to see what "Giani Ji" does Sikhi is about following what Sri GUru Ji did and said. If a Giani does not follow some rehat then this doesnt give us permission to adopt a weaker rehat. In SIkhi there is no clergy which tells us how and what SIkhi is. We are students of Sri GUru Ji and we are to learn from him on daily basis . Yes there are some older Gianis who are very knowledgeble and we can learn alot from them, but If a Giani does not follow certains rehats we should not focus on these weaknesses. As Gursikhs we are not to focus on others weaknesses instead we are to focus on our own weakness. Learn from the good and ignore what is not good. Sikhi is a rare and narrow path we have to stay firm on the path Sri GUru Ji set out for us instead of looking at the path others are walking.
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Re: relation of 5 vices
August 11, 2012 02:54PM
sat sri akal bhane,
the best teacher is Shri GURU GRANTH SAHIB ji, we all have immense questions, Guru Granth Sahib is the ONLY one that gives the answers that will ease the hearts vichaara
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Re: relation of 5 vices
August 11, 2012 06:19PM
Vaheguru ji ka Khalsa
Vaheguru ji ki Fateh

I agree with you guys. Guru sahib is my only teacher.. One should always look at one's own weaknesses..
I am aiming to become sarabhloh bibeki... I am learning to cook food..

Hopefully guru sahib will do kirpaa someday...
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Re: relation of 5 vices
August 11, 2012 07:47PM
Discussing about 5 vices may our possible efforts to find solution,but in Real only two escapes.Jap Naam or/through Gurbani!!
Chanting on Naam is solution to every possible problem we can have.The reason we aren't able to concentrate on Naam and trying to find another possible solution is Lack of believe/trust in power of Naam.

what I have understood trough Gurbani and sangat is


Try to do as many Sukhmani Sahib as you can with full concentration and with under standing the Value of Naam.Only by understanding Gurbani,one can believe in power and quilites of Naam or Akal Purkh Vaheguroo.Gurbani say's Without Qualities/GOUN Bhagti is not possible!! Find Qualities trough Gurbani and put effort to attain them.Gurbani is Teachings of Guru Sahib so try to understand Gurbani.

SEHAJ is something should always be along with your Bhagti,otherwise you will skip many thing on the path of Gursikhi and you need to come back to attain them. It can be a fall in your Gursikhi jeeven or in your bhagti.And keep Our cultural values i.e. Respect everybody regardless their good/bad karam,Nimrta.
Gurbani say's DAYA/kindness is Must. without kindness there is no possibilities of Dharam. Daya and dharam is not possible without each other.

For the solution to 5 vices we have a clear Gurbani tuk- ਜੀਤੇ ਪੰਚ ਬੈਰਾਈਆ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਫਲ ਮਾਰੂ ਇਹ ਰਾਗੁ॥

If we do believe in power of Gurbani then just follow this tuk and we are escaped!! while doing path one thing must be kept in mind that Gurbani always emphasis on the qualities of Naam and stresses on chanting Naam. You will might have to face more attacks of 5 vices when you try to do Path from Raag Maroo,because doing Path from Raag maroo is like your attacking on 5 vices and your suppose to face reaction!!

In this condition while you have to face more attacks Chant on Naam and maintain a strict/strong Amritwela and Sangat. Keep your mind in Sehaj and be continue. Going to Gurudwara Sahib is a Great Bliss which helps you alot to fight against 5 vices.

May Guru Jee escape all of us from these 5 vices!
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Re: relation of 5 vices
August 12, 2012 03:31PM
Quote

sat sri akal bhane,
the best teacher is Shri GURU GRANTH SAHIB ji, we all have immense questions, Guru Granth Sahib is the ONLY one that gives the answers that will ease the hearts vichaara

I dont agree with this type of thinking. Yes Sri GUru Granth Sahib Ji is our true teacher, but SRi GUru Jis has established a maryada on how to learn from Sri Guru Granth Sahib. Sri GUru Arjan Dev Ji has stated BHai Gurdas Jis vaars are the key to understanding GUrbani. When at DamDama Sahib, SRi GUru Gobind Singh Ji says we should learn the writings of BHai Nand Lal SIngh Ji. BHai CHaupa SIngh Jis rehatnama says we should learn from learned Gursikhs ( Gianis). WHo is a Giani? According to BHai Sahib Bhai Randhir SIngh Ji a giani is someone who do naam abhyiaas with each swas. So obviously we should learn from such GUrmukhs as a means to get a better understanding of Gurbani. Even today many people read the books of Bhai Gurdas Ji, BHai Nand SIngh Lal Ji, and Bhai Randhir SIngh Ji to understand Gurbani because they all had lots of naam kamaee and were true Gursikhs. BHai Randhir SIngh Ji also mentions reading dharmic ( gurmat) books is very beneficial to ones spirituality.
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Re: relation of 5 vices
August 12, 2012 05:28PM
Vaheguru ji ka khalsa
Vaheguru ji ki Fateh!

Bhawan Gill jee, what is sehag? What does it mean to skip sehag?

Sukhdeep Singh veerjee, I think there is a middle ground. Yes, we must go to sri guru granth sahib jee for guidance. And we can read books to help us better understand what is going on...

Vaheguru ji ka Khalsa
Vaheguru ji ki Fatehhh
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Re: relation of 5 vices
August 13, 2012 06:51PM
This may help read on:

With the false ego-sense (Haumai, "I-ness") up and active, all our acting in the world becomes selfish and evil. Hence there is no other factor causing the illusory duality (Doojaa Bhaav) and the repeated pain and delusion it entails than the psychological ego-sense. When the materially identified ego has sided with the materialistic forces (Maya), it is said to have the following faults: lust (Kaam), anger (Krodh); greed (Lobh), delusory emotional attachment (Moh), pride (Mada or Ahankaar), envy (Matsarya) and stubborn mindedness (Mann-Hatha). Also called evil passions, man's Spiritual heritage constantly gets looted by these internal thieves (and their numerous variations), causing him to lose knowledge of his True Being. The attempt of this Gurbani reflection is to reflect on the nature of anger, its cause, its signs and its cure or management.

ਹਉਮੈ ਬੰਧਨ ਬੰਧਿ ਭਵਾਵੈ ॥: haumai bandhan bandh bhavaavai: Egotism binds people in bondage, and causes them to wander around lost (sggs 227).
ਹਉ ਵਿਚਿ ਜੰਮਿਆ ਹਉ ਵਿਚਿ ਮੁਆ ॥: Haou vich janmiaa haou vich muaa: In ego man is born; in ego he dies (sggs 466).
ਕਾਮ ਕ੍ਰੋਧ ਮਾਇਆ ਮਦ ਮਤਸਰ ਏ ਖੇਲਤ ਸਭਿ ਜੂਐ ਹਾਰੇ ॥: Kaam krodh maya mada matsar ae khelat sabhi jooai haare: Kaama, Krodha, Maya, Mada and Matsara — these have combined to plunder the world (sggs 974).
ਕਾਮੁ ਕ੍ਰੋਧੁ ਲੋਭੁ ਮੋਹੁ ਨਿਤ ਝਗਰਤੇ ਝਗਰਾਇਆ ॥: Kaam krodh lobh mohu nit jhagarate jhagaraaeiaa: Lust, anger, greed and emotional attachment bring continual conflict and strife (sggs 984).
ਹਠੁ ਅਹੰਕਾਰੁ ਕਰੈ ਨਹੀ ਪਾਵੈ ॥: Hatha ahankaar karai nahee paavai: Acting in stubbornness and egotism, (Truth) is not attained (Realized, etc.) (sggs 905).
What is anger? Loads and loads of books have been written on anger. But it still appears to be one of the most misunderstood and overused of human emotions. Some scriptures have done a wonderful job explaining it in a very layman's terms. As they reveal to us, psychological ego gives rise to body-mind-intellect consciousness (duality). In turn, this body-mind-intellect personality gives rise to the perceiver of objects (beings, things and places), the feeler of emotions and the thinker of thoughts. Anger is one of the human emotions or feelings - one of the psychological ego's passions (negativity, Bikar or Bikaar). In other words, anger is an emotional-physiological-cognitive internal state of consciousness which renders a man blind to the existence of inner Light. Hence sometime it's referred in the scriptures as hidden evil or thief, waiting for an excuse to find expression and expansion.

ਬਸਇ ਕਰੋਧੁ ਸਰੀਰਿ ਚੰਡਾਰਾ ॥: Basai krodh sareeri chandaalaa: Anger, the outcaste, hides within man's body (sggs 759).
ਭੀਤਰਿ ਪੰਚ ਗੁਪਤ ਮਨਿ ਵਾਸੇ ॥ ਥਿਰੁ ਨ ਰਹਹਿ ਜੈਸੇ ਭਵਹਿ ਉਦਾਸੇ ॥੧॥: Bheetar panch gupat mani vaase. Thir n rahahi jaise bhavahi oudaase ||1||: The "five" (i.e., all evil passions: lust, anger, greed, etc.) dwell hidden within the mind. They do not remain still, but move around like wanderers (ਠਠੰਬਰੇ ਹੋਇਆਂ ਵਾਂਗ, and do not let my mind remain still) ||1|| (sggs 359).
ਕਾਮੁ ਕ੍ਰੋਧੁ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਧਨੁ ਹਿਰੈ ॥: Kaamu krodhu antari dhanu hirai: Lust and anger steal the wealth (of the Naam...) within (sggs 352).
How does anger arise in us? First, the false ego begets lust (Kaama) - the compelling, coercive materialistic desire to indulge in sensory temptations. In turn, lust clouds our understanding of life. Consequently we end up living false values: external looks, wealth, name, fame, material success, popularity, irrational expectations, false concepts, fantasies and brooding on the past. Frustrated or unfulfilled lust results in anger (Krodh).

Frustration is the feeling we experience when we don't get what we want, or when something interferes with our gaining a desired and expected goal, good or bad. The feeling of frustration can come from unexpected situations, our own limitations, our actions and choices, actions of others, motives of others, experiences of injustice, and so on. Anger is feeling upset in response to such frustration arising from non-fulfillment of desires. Thus, lust is the first perverted son of the sense-blind mind, and its second perverted son is anger. In brief, when obstructed, evil desire turns to its debased brother we call anger. These two impulses attack unenlightened beings from within and without. This is why the scriptures tirelessly warn us against the blind attachment to sense objects. As the Gurbani puts it: anger and lust are "the wounds of the soul".

ਕਾਮੁ ਕ੍ਰੋਧੁ ਜੀਅ ਮਹਿ ਚੋਟ ॥: Kaamu krodhu jeea mahi chott: Lust and anger (i.e. all evil passions) are the wounds of the soul (i.e. they inspire us do evil) (sggs 152).
ਸਲੋਕੁ ਮਰਦਾਨਾ ੧ ॥ ਕਲਿ ਕਲਵਾਲੀ ਕਾਮੁ ਮਦੁ ਮਨੂਆ ਪੀਵਣਹਾਰੁ ॥ ਕ੍ਰੋਧ ਕਟੋਰੀ ਮੋਹਿ ਭਰੀ ਪੀਲਾਵਾ ਅਹੰਕਾਰੁ ॥ ਮਜਲਸ ਕੂੜੇ ਲਬ ਕੀ ਪੀ ਪੀ ਹੋਇ ਖੁਆਰੁ ॥ ਕਰਣੀ ਲਾਹਣਿ ਸਤੁ ਗੁੜੁ ਸਚੁ ਸਰਾ ਕਰਿ ਸਾਰੁ ॥ ਗੁਣ ਮੰਡੇ ਕਰਿ ਸੀਲੁ ਘਿਉ ਸਰਮੁ ਮਾਸੁ ਆਹਾਰੁ ॥ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਪਾਈਐ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਖਾਧੈ ਜਾਹਿ ਬਿਕਾਰ ॥੧॥: Slok Mardaanaa 1 || Kali (imagining Mayaic mind...) is the vessel, filled with the wine of lust; the mind is the drinker. Anger is the cup, filled with the worldly attachment; pride is the bartender. Drinking too much in the company of falsehood and greed, (the mind) is ruined. So let good conduct (based on the Gurmat) be your distillery, and let Truth be the molasses you ferment; make the most excellent wine of True (Naam). Make Virtue your bread, cool headedness (ਸੀਤਲ ਸੁਭਾਉ) the ghee and modesty the dish of meat. O Nanak! By becoming a Gurmukh, (this diet) is obtained; by consuming which, all the Bikaar (evil and corruption...) depart ||1|| (sggs 553).
ਕਾਮ ਕਰੋਧੁ ਸਬਲ ਸੰਸਾਰਾ ॥: Kaam karodhu sabal sansaaraa: Lust and anger are very powerful in the world (sggs 1060).
Looking at it from an another angle, anger comes from despair or threatening of one's will when his sensory desire is obscured or hindered. In other words, anger is the result of hurt pride for not getting one's own way. Frustrated or unfulfilled desires provoke worry and regrets, followed by fear which causes man to have an inability to face a critical moment, even in the intimacy of his deepest meditation. When this fear is disturbed, anger boils in us causing resentment, agitation and envy. Those who anger easily are overly fearful of God, elders, government, impending disaster, death, safety, time (past, present and future), security, fate, and the list goes on and on. As we can see, desire-worry-fear-anger have hand-in-glove relationship. This is why the scriptures repeatedly remind us that a person full of desires, material or celestial, cannot be on the path of Spiritual Unfoldment. Such person is not only angry at himself and other people, he is even angry at his God. Furthermore, he is often angry at some people who are already dead!

ਭੈ ਵਿਚਿ ਜੰਮੈ ਭੈ ਮਰੈ ਭੀ ਭਉ ਮਨ ਮਹਿ ਹੋਇ ॥: Bhai vich jammai bhai marai bhee bhaou mann mahi hoi: In fear we are born, and in fear we die; fear is always present in the mind (sggs 149).
ਮਾਇਆ ਜਾਲੁ ਪਸਾਰਿਆ ਭੀਤਰਿ ਚੋਗ ਬਣਾਇ ॥ ਤ੍ਰਿਸਨਾ ਪੰਖੀ ਫਾਸਿਆ ਨਿਕਸੁ ਨ ਪਾਏ ਮਾਇ ॥: Maya jaal pasaariaa bheetar chog banaai. Trisnaa pankhee phaasiaa nikis n paae maai: Maya has spread out her net and in it has placed the bait (ਵਿਸ਼ਿਆਂ ਦਾ ਚੋਗਾ ਜਾਲ, sensuousness, sense-gratifications, Bikaars, desires, etc.). The bird of desire (instinctive mind, ਜੀਵ-ਪੰਖੀ, etc.) is caught, and cannot find any escape, O (my) mother (sggs 50).
ਡਰਿ ਡਰਿ ਪਚੇ ਮਨਮੁਖ ਵੇਚਾਰੇ ॥: Dari dari pache manmukh vechaare: The wretched Manmukhs (material or unenlightened beings) are ruined through fear and dread (sggs 677).
ਆਪੁ ਗਇਆ ਭ੍ਰਮੁ ਭਉ ਗਇਆ ਜਨਮ ਮਰਨ ਦੁਖ ਜਾਹਿ ॥: Aap gaiaa bhram bhaou gaiaa janam maran dukh jaahi: When ego departs, doubt and fear also depart, and the pain of birth and death is removed (sggs 1093).
Man's limited egocentric life is said to be the cause of his repeated pain and delusion. As discussed earlier, anger is the offspring of this unripe egoism. Hence the primary cause of anger is innate, genetic or physiological. Medical science has proven this with evidence: some children, for example, are born irritable, touchy, easily angered, can throw a temper tantrum without any formal training and often even without observing a model, and that these signs are present from a very early age. As we grow, anger gets stronger many ways. One way is sociocultural - if we have seen our parents get angry first and resolve an issue after, we are more likely to use the same approach. Second may be through learning as we grow. For example, if one was abused by aggression, he may become abuser himself. Research has also found that, typically, people who are easily angered come from families that are disruptive, chaotic, and not skilled at emotional communications. Further, some find having a temper and being aggressive yield payoffs, although temporary.

ਕਾਮ ਕ੍ਰੋਧ ਕਾ ਚੋਲੜਾ ਸਭ ਗਲਿ ਆਏ ਪਾਇ ॥: Kaam krodh kaa cholarraa sabh gali aaye paai: All have come, wearing the robes of lust and anger (sggs 1414).
ਬਿਖੈ ਬਿਖੈ ਕੀ ਬਾਸਨਾ ਤਜੀਅ ਨਹ ਜਾਈ ॥: Bikhai bikhai kee baasanaa tajeea nah jaaee: I cannot escape my Vaasnaa for sin and corruption (sggs 855).
ਕਾਮ ਕ੍ਰੋਧ ਮਦ ਲੋਭ ਮੋਹ ਦੁਸਟ ਬਾਸਨਾ ਨਿਵਾਰਿ ॥: Kaam krodh madd lobh moh dusatt baasanaa nivaar: Take away my Vaasna - lust, anger, pride, greed, and emotional attachment (sggs 523).
We all have anger in us. But when it gets out of control and turns destructive, it can lead to problems - problem of violence or aggression, problems at work, problem in personal relationships, problem in mental and physical well-being, and problem in the overall quality of one's life. When our anger or aggression becomes so extreme that we lose self-control, it is said that we are in a rage, like a train running out of control and about to derail. Anytime we feel frustrated, especially when we think someone else is to blame for our loss, is a real potential trigger for outburst of anger. Besides getting our way, we may unconsciously use anger to play psychological put-down games: blaming others for our own shortcomings, demeaning others, insulting another person, taking revenge, oppressing others and then justify it to boost our own sagging ego. Furthermore, anger can also turn into hostility which is a chronic state of anger. In other words, anger is a temporary response to a particular frustrating situation; whilst hostility is a permanent personality characteristic.

The Gurbani urges us to picture to ourselves the way in which anger originates from non-fulfillment of desires, and how it leads to serious consequences. Anger is said to be the reason-blinding, health-impairing, peace-destroying and misery-causing behavior. This negative power stirs up conflicts, causes confusion, and scatters the mind hither and thither; which makes meditation, knowing who you are, impossible. Anger comes in many forms, some quite subtle. Also, it varies in intensity from mild irritation to intense fury and rage. Simply put: anger drives man to commit misdeeds and misconduct.

ਕ੍ਰੋਧੁ ਪ੍ਰਧਾਨੁ ਮਹਾ ਬਡ ਦੁੰਦਰ ਤਹ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਵਾਸੀ ਰਾਜਾ ॥: Krodh pradhaan mahaa badd dundar tah manu maavaasee raajaa: Anger is the great supreme commander, full of argument and strife, and the mind is the rebel king there (sggs 1161).
ਭੰਉਕੈ ਕੋਪੁ ਖੁਆਰੁ ਹੋਇ ਫਕੜੁ ਪਿਟੇ ਅੰਧੁ ॥: Bhanoukai kop khuaar hoe fakarr pitte andh: Anger barks and brings ruin on itself, blindly pursuing useless conflicts (sggs 1288).
ਗ੍ਰਿਹ ਰਾਜ ਮਹਿ ਨਰਕੁ ਉਦਾਸ ਕਰੋਧਾ ॥: Grih raaj mahi naraku udaas karodhaa: A householder indulged in sensual pleasures lives in hellish existence, and the renunciate is always victim of his own anger (sggs 1019).
ਤਤੈ ਤਾਮਸਿ ਜਲਿਓਹੁ ਮੂੜੇ ਥਥੈ ਥਾਨ ਭਰਿਸਟੁ ਹੋਆ ॥: Tatai taamas jaliohu moorre thathhai thaan bharisat hoaa: Tatta: In anger, you are burnt, you fool; Thatha: that place where you live, is cursed (sggs 435).
Thus, like other emotions, anger has physiological and psychological consequences. When people get angry, their heart rate and blood pressure go up, as do the levels of their energy hormones, adrenaline, and noradrenaline. It has a bad effect on health; for an angry man's whole system undergoes a change (headaches, hypertension, gastrointestinal disturbances, heart attacks, etc.). It causes terrible reactions within the nerve system of the body. In person who routinely goes through paroxysm of anger, the heart and nerve system begins to weaken from the repeated shocks.

ਕਾਮੁ ਕ੍ਰੋਧੁ ਕਾਇਆ ਕਉ ਗਾਲੈ ॥: Kaam krodh kaaiaa kaou gaalai: Lust and anger destroy the body (sggs 932).
ਆਪਣੈ ਰੋਹਿ ਆਪੇ ਹੀ ਦਝੈ ॥: Aapanai rohi aape hee dajhai: By his own anger, man burns himself (sggs 1418).
Psychological effects of anger are also grave, and Spiritually lethal. It dulls and paralyzes the mind, numbing its functioning power. It creates mental delusion, a state of psychological blindness that affects all other faculties, followed by the loss of memory. This is why when in rage, man forgets what belongs to him and to others. It's the cancer of the mind, which obscures one's memory of his Essential Nature as Unconditioned Consciousness, causing decay of the discriminative faculty (Bibek Budhi), followed by annihilation of one's righteous behavior and intelligence. Here is the step-by-step analysis. Man's brooding over objects of the senses causes attachment to them. From such attachment, lust or desires develop; from unfulfilled lust, anger arises; from anger, mental delusion arises; from delusion comes bewilderment or loss of memory of the Mool (Source, Origin, Jot...); the loss of such memory causes loss of intelligence or the discriminating faculty; upon loss of intelligence or discriminative judgment, one falls down into the material consciousness; which, in turn, brings annihilation of his Spiritual Life (the Gurmukh Lifestyle). The result is destruction of man's inner peace, happiness, health, brain power, clarity of thoughts, memory, and proper judgment.

ਕਠਨ ਕਰੋਧ ਘਟ ਹੀ ਕੇ ਭੀਤਰਿ ਜਿਹ ਸੁਧਿ ਸਭ ਬਿਸਰਾਈ ॥: Kathan karodh ghatt hee ke bheetari jih sudhi sabh bisaraaee: The heart is filled with anger and violence, which cause all sense to be forgotten (sggs 218).
ਅੰਤਰਿ ਕ੍ਰੋਧੁ ਜੂਐ ਮਤਿ ਹਾਰੀ ॥: Antari krodhu jooai mati haaree: Man filled with anger within, loses his mind in the gamble of anger (sggs 314).
ਕਾਮ ਕ੍ਰੋਧਿ ਅਹੰਕਾਰਿ ਫਿਰਹਿ ਦੇਵਾਨਿਆ ॥: Kaam krodhi ahankaar firahi devaaniaa: Engrossed in lust, anger and egotism, man wanders around insane (sggs 708).
ਅਤਿ ਕਰੋਧ ਸਿਉ ਲੂਝਦੇ ਅਗੈ ਪਿਛੈ ਦੁਖੁ ਪਾਵਹਿ ॥: Ati karodh siou loojhade agai pishai dukhu paavahi: People struggle with great anger; here and hereafter, they suffer in pain (sggs 1089).
ਕ੍ਰੋਧੁ ਬਿਨਾਸੈ ਸਗਲ ਵਿਕਾਰੀ ॥: Krodh binaasai sagal vikaaree: All the wicked are ruined by their anger (sggs 225).
ਆਪ ਪਰ ਕਾ ਕਛੁ ਨ ਜਾਨੈ ਕਾਮ ਕ੍ਰੋਧਹਿ ਜਾਰਿ ॥: Aap par kaa kashu na jaanai kaam krodhahi jaari: Man does not know what belongs to him and to others, when he burns in lust and anger (sggs 1225).
Peace and love are Divine qualities. Anger is opposite of peace and love. Hence the most common disturber of the peace and love in an individual, in a family and among groups and nations is anger. It begets terror, wars, riots, crime, murders, spouse and child abuse, divorce, stormy relationships, poor working conditions, poor physical health, emotional disorders, impatience, hostility, ungodly actions, antisocial behavior, violence, inner seething, envy, resentment, meanness, hatred, aggression, fanaticism and destruction. The Gurbani labels anger as "fire", "demon", "horrible", "unbearable", "poison", "false", "Chandaal", "thief", "wild", and so on.

ਮਨਿ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਕ੍ਰੋਧੁ ਮਹਾ ਬਿਸਲੋਧੁ ਨਿਰਪ ਧਾਵਹਿ ਲੜਿ ਦੁਖੁ ਪਾਇਆ ॥: Mani hiradai krodh mahaa bisalodhu nirap dhaavahi larri dukh paaiaa: Hearts and minds filled with the horribly poisonous essence of anger, the kings fight their wars and obtain only pain (sggs 445).
ਕਾਮਿ ਕਰੋਧਿ ਜਲੈ ਸਭੁ ਕੋਈ ॥: Kaam karodh jalai sabh koee: All are burning in the fires of lust and anger (sggs 1062).
ਮਾਇਆ ਮੋਹੁ ਪਰੇਤੁ ਹੈ ਕਾਮੁ ਕ੍ਰੋਧੁ ਅਹੰਕਾਰਾ ॥: Maya mohu paret hai kaam krodhu ahankaaraa: Attachment to Maya, lust, anger and egotism are demons (sggs 513).
ਕਾਮੁ ਕ੍ਰੋਧੁ ਬਿਖੁ ਬਜਰੁ ਭਾਰੁ ॥: Kaam krodh bikh bajar bhaar: The burden of lust, anger and corruption is unbearable (sggs 1187).
ਸਪੁ ਪਿੜਾਈ ਪਾਈਐ ਬਿਖੁ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਮਨਿ ਰੋਸੁ ॥: Sapp pirhaaee paaeeai bikhu antari manni ros: The snake may be locked in a basket, but it is still poisonous, and the rage (to bite others) within its mind remains (sggs 1009).
ਸੰਗੀ ਖੋਟਾ ਕ੍ਰੋਧੁ ਚੰਡਾਲ ॥: Sangee khotaa krodh chandaal: O man, your constant companion is the demon of anger (sggs 374).
Anger is a sign of man's selfishness and his ignorance of his true identity (Mool); the immature state of the soul. On account of selfishness and ignorance, we are cowardly fearful of almost everything. In body-consciousness, wholly ignorant of our Mool, we remain bewildered and busy in compulsive bodily activities, tossed around by desires and anger. Whenever a desire for material objects is fulfilled, the inevitable result is greed and more. On the other hand, if a desire remains unfulfilled, it manifests in fear and anger. These impulses of lust, anger and greed pull the consciousness to matter and sense enslavement. This is attachment that bounds us to worldliness. So long we are in bondage, Truth remains hidden from us. Hence, the disease of brooding over sense objects is such that even if a man acquires all the wealth and possessions of the world, his desires will go on multiplying. These negative impulses lead one to repeated pain and delusion, hellish existence or Spiritual oblivion.

ਅਗਿਆਨੀ ਮਨਿ ਰੋਸੁ ਕਰੇਇ ॥: Agiaanee mani rosu karaee: The ignorant person shows his anger (sggs 268).
ਕਾਮ ਕ੍ਰੋਧਿ ਲੋਭਿ ਮੋਹਿ ਬਾਧਾ ॥: Kaam krodhi lobhi mohi baadhaa: Man is bound to worldliness by lust, anger, greed and emotional attachment (sggs 741).
ਕਾਮਿ ਕ੍ਰੋਧਿ ਲੋਭਿ ਬਿਆਪਿਓ ਜਨਮ ਹੀ ਕੀ ਖਾਨਿ ॥: Kaami krodhi lobhi biaapio janam hee kee khaan: Engrossed in unfulfilled lust, unresolved anger and greed, you will be consigned to reincarnation (sggs 1304).
An angry person is generally unwilling to concede that he has the disease of anger. He always blames others! Furthermore, the majority of us (probably over 99.9 percent) live in unenlightened existence, hence we go to any length to justify our anger - we excuse it or rationalize it by calling it "righteous anger", "good anger", "assertiveness", and so on. From doing so, we get an ego boost, or we may try to conceal other feelings: the feelings underlying the anger reaction make us feel vulnerable and weak; anger makes us feel, at least momentarily, strong and in control. This is all self-deceiving. Because anger causes most of us to lose our inner balance and to easily forget about universal love and become quite mad. The Gurbani does not entertain such excuses or rationalization. Anger is anger whether it's due to frustration of good desires or bad desires; for both good or bad desires are in Maya or duality, hence relative. Anger must also be distinguished from assertiveness, fearlessness, or moral courage. These three are essentially synonymous. True assertive behavior is tactfully and rationally standing up for ourselves without causing undue anxiety to others, to express honest feelings comfortably, and to exercise personal rights without denying the rights of others. Thus, true assertiveness is to look not only to one's own interests but also to the interests of others. Therefore, a true assertiveness is not the natural tendency of manipulating or hurting others so that one's own needs are met, even at the cost of another persons needs. The quality of true assertiveness or true fearlessness belongs to a person who possesses the Divine attribute of true Humility - a Mool-realized person (the Gurmukh), who acts only in Dharma, not out of anger.

ਨਾਨਕ ਕਾਮਿ ਕ੍ਰੋਧਿ ਕਿਨੈ ਨ ਪਾਇਓ ਪੁਛਹੁ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਜਾਇ ॥: Nanak kaami krodhi kinai na paaio pushahu Giaanee jaai: O Nanak, through lust and anger, no one has ever found God - go, and ask any wise man (sggs 551).
ਕਾਮ ਕ੍ਰੋਧ ਸਿਉ ਠਾਟੁ ਨ ਬਨਿਆ ॥: Kaam krodh siou thaat na baniaa: Don't deal whatsoever with lust and anger (sggs 1347).
ਪਰਹਰੁ ਕਾਮੁ ਕ੍ਰੋਧੁ ਅਹੰਕਾਰੁ ॥: Paraharu kaamu krodhu ahankaar: Set aside lust, anger and pride (sggs 324).
ਕਾਮ ਕ੍ਰੋਧ ਸੰਗਿ ਕਬਹੁ ਨ ਬਹਹੁ ॥: Kaam krodh sangi kabahu na bahahu: Don't ever associate with lust or anger (sggs 343).
ਮਨ ਕਾ ਕ੍ਰੋਧੁ ਨਿਵਾਰਿ ਪੰਡਿਤ ॥: Mann kaa krodhu nivaar pandit: Eradicate anger from your mind, O Pandit (sggs 887).
ਭੈ ਕਾਹੂ ਕਉ ਦੇਤ ਨਹਿ ਨਹਿ ਭੈ ਮਾਨਤ ਆਨ ॥ ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਸੁਨਿ ਰੇ ਮਨਾ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਤਾਹਿ ਬਖਾਨਿ ॥੧੬॥: Bhai kaahoo ko det nahi nahi bhai manat aan ...: One who does not frighten anyone, and who is not afraid of anyone else (ਡਰਾਵਿਆਂ ਤੋਂ ਘਬਰਾਂਦਾ ਨਹੀਂ) — says Nanak, listen, mind: call him Giaanee (spirituallt Wise, ਆਤਮਕ ਜੀਵਨ ਦੀ ਸੂਝ ਵਾਲਾ, etc.) ||16|| (sggs 1427).
ਮਨ ਰੇ ਸਚੁ ਮਿਲੈ ਭਉ ਜਾਇ ॥: Mann re sachu milai bhaou jaai: O mind, meeting with the Truth, fear departs (sggs 18).
What are the signs of anger? Anger can be recognized from its behavioral and verbal signs. Behavioral signs may include assaultive behavior (physical and verbal cruelty, rage, slapping, shoving, kicking, hitting, threaten with a weapon, etc.), aggressive behavior (criticizing others, chronic fault finding, accusing someone of having immoral or despicable traits or motives, nagging, scolding, whining, sarcasm, prejudice, flashes of temper, haranguing, abusive, cursing, etc.), hurtful behavior (malicious gossip, stealing, trouble-making, thinking ill of others, etc.), rebellious behavior (antisocial behavior, open defiance, refusal to talk, taking offense easily, etc.), withdrawal (quiet remoteness, silence, lack of communication, etc.), psychosomatic disorders (iredness, anxiety attacks, high blood pressure, heart disease, etc.), depression and guilt, serious mental illness like paranoid schizophrenia, accident-proneness, self-defeating or addictive behavior (drinking, overeating, drugs, smoking, etc.), vigorous distracting activity (exercising or cleaning, etc.), excessively submissive deferring behavior, crying, distrusting, skeptical, argumentative, irritating, indirectly challenging attitude, resentful, jealous, disruptive, uncooperative, distracting actions, unforgiving or unsympathetic, sulky, sullen, pouting, passively resistant, and interfering with progress. Verbal or cognitive signs may include open hatred and insults, contempt and disgust, slander, backbiting, critical and suspicious nature, blaming others, no respect, revengeful, name calling, disappointed, annoyed, disgusted, put out, profanity, cynical humor or teasing, etc.

ਹੇ ਕਲਿ ਮੂਲ ਕ੍ਰੋਧੰ ਕਦੰਚ ਕਰੁਣਾ ਨ ਉਪਰਜਤੇ ॥ ਬਿਖਯੰਤ ਜੀਵੰ ਵਸ੍ਹੰ ਕਰੋਤਿ ਨਿਰਤ੍ਹੰ ਕਰੋਤਿ ਜਥਾ ਮਰਕਟਹ ॥: Hey kali mool krodham kadanch karunaa na uparajate. Bikhayant jeevam vasam karoti niratam karoti jathaa marakatah: O anger, you are the root of conflict; compassion never rises up in you. You take the corrupt, sinful beings in your power, and make them dance like monkeys (sggs 1358).
ਬੈਰ ਬਿਰੋਧ ਕਾਮ ਕ੍ਰੋਧ ਮੋਹ ॥ ਝੂਠ ਬਿਕਾਰ ਮਹਾ ਲੋਭ ਧ੍ਰੋਹ ॥ ਇਆਹੂ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਬਿਹਾਨੇ ਕਈ ਜਨਮ ॥: Bair birodhh kaam krodhh moh. Jhooth bikaar mahaa lobh dhroh. Eiaahoo jugati bihaane kaee janam: Hate, conflict, lust, anger, emotional attachment, falsehood, corruption, immense greed and deceit. So many lifetimes are wasted in these ways (sggs 267).
ਕਾਮੁ ਕ੍ਰੋਧੁ ਲੋਭੁ ਮੋਹੁ ਨਿਤ ਝਗਰਤੇ ਝਗਰਾਇਆ ॥: Kaam krodh lobh moh nit jhagarte jhagaraayaa: Lust, anger, greed and attachment to delusion bring continual conflict and strife (sggs 984).
Lust, anger, and greed — these constitute the threefold gate of hellish life leading to the destruction of the soul's welfare. These three, therefore, man should abandon (Gita 16:21).
Now when you restrain your anger, you please the All-Compassionate....You have also brought delight to the heart of the person from whom you withheld your anger....Thus the Prophet already ordered us to practice mutual affection and to love one another. And this (i.e., restraining one's anger) is one of the highest of the causes helping to realize Love (Sufi Shams Tabriez).
You will not be punished for your anger, you will be punished by your anger. Overcome anger by love (Buddha).
As we can see, anger has psychological and biological payoffs. It's destructive. It drags us down. It neither fixes anything nor does it make anybody feel better — it actually makes us feel worse. Therefore, the scriptures and the enlightened beings urge us manage it and keep it at bay. But how? First, theories like "letting it all hang out" or "let it rip" with anger actually escalates anger or aggression and does nothing to help anybody to get rid of it or resolve the situation. Second, anger turned inward is unhealthy for it may cause hypertension, high blood pressure or depression. Third, you can't totally eliminate or avoid the objects (things, places and people) that enrage you. Fourth, you cannot change other people either; because each one of us must change himself or herself. Fifth, in spite of all our efforts, things will happen that will cause us and others anger. In other words, life will be filled with frustration, inconvenience, annoyance, pain, loss and the unpredictable actions of others. Although one cannot change all that, but one can change himself and learn to control his reactions and not let such events, environment or objects affect him. When in full control, anger can motivate us to take action in positive ways.

ਸੋ ਸੂਚਾ ਜਿ ਕਰੋਧੁ ਨਿਵਾਰੇ ॥: So soochaa ji karodh nivaare: He alone is pure, who eradicates anger (sggs 1059).
ਦੁਨੀਆ ਦੋਸੁ ਰੋਸੁ ਹੈ ਲੋਈ॥ਅਪਨਾ ਕੀਆ ਪਾਵੈ ਸੋਈ ॥: Duneeaa dosu rosu hai loee. Apanaa keeaa paavai soee: Man receives the fruits of his own actions; but he blames the world, and gets angry with people (sggs 1161).
ਅੰਤ ਕਾਲਿ ਭਜਿ ਜਾਹਿਗੇ ਕਾਹੇ ਜਲਹੁ ਕਰੋਧੀ ॥: Ant kaal bhaj jaahige kaahe jalahu karodhee: In the end, they (relatives) will run away from you; why do you burn for them in anger? (sggs 809).
In material existence, once we are faced with a problem, we start thinking about it's solution, rather than its root-cause. Without seeing the reality of the problem, we may solve the problem for time being, however, the problem will arise again. Unless the root-cause of any problem is known, one will be unable to see the reality of that problem. And, without thinking about the reality or understanding the nature of the problem, we will be unable to eradicate it once for ever. As the Gurbani says: "One can not kill a snake by merely destroying the snake-hole"! By conducting the Shabad-Vichaar, we can seek to understand the nature or root-cause of worldly problem. Once the answer is known, we can find a permanent solution to it. Hence, the Gurbani first looks at the root-cause of human problems, and then offers the solution. When the cause is removed, the effect will not arise. As discussed earlier, the root-cause of man's all evil passions is his false ego-sense. It's this ego-sense on whose account our instinctive minds are in control of lust and anger, unable to bear the truth. Once ego (Haaumai) is annihilated, falsehood in the robe of lust and anger folds its tent and disappear, never to make the comeback again.

ਕਾਮਿ ਕ੍ਰੋਧਿ ਮਨੁ ਵਸਿ ਕੀਆ ॥: Kaami krodhi manu vasi keeaa: Sexual desire and anger hold the mind in its power (sggs 1192).
ਕਾਮ ਕਰੋਧੁ ਨਗਰ ਮਹਿ ਸਬਲਾ ਨਿਤ ਉਠਿ ਉਠਿ ਜੂਝੁ ਕਰੀਜੈ ॥: Kaam karodhu nagar mahi sabalaa nit outhi outhi joojh kareejai: Lust and anger are very powerful in the body-village; rise up to fight the battle against them (sggs 1325).
ਸਚੁ ਕਹੈ ਤਾ ਛੋਹੋ ਆਵੈ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਬਹੁਤਾ ਰੋਹਾ ॥: Sachu kahai taa shoho aavai antari bahataa rohaa: If someone speaks the truth, then you are aggravated; for you are totally filled with anger (sggs 960).
ਕਾਮ ਕਰੋਧ ਮਹਾ ਬਿਖਿਆ ਰਸ ਇਨ ਤੇ ਭਏ ਨਿਰਾਰੇ ॥: Kaam karodh mahaa bikhiaa ras in te bhaye niraare: Lust, anger and the pleasures of terrible corruption - keep away from these (sggs 1269).
ਕਾਮੁ ਕ੍ਰੋਧੁ ਲੋਭੁ ਮੋਹੁ ਨਿਵਾਰੇ ਨਿਵਰੇ ਸਗਲ ਬੈਰਾਈ ॥: Kaam krodh lobh moh nivaare nivare sagal bairaaee: When lust, anger, greed and attachment to delusion are eradicated; then I have no more enemies (sggs 1000).
To overcome the spell of anger along with its root-cause, the false ego, the Gurbani asks engaging in Shabad-Vichaar. With it, desires are silenced, and one goes beyond the state of physical perceptions and thereby seeks the "right" lifestyle. When desires are silenced, the mind becomes still. Therefore, if performed faithfully, Shabad-Vichaar brings about mind-control: self-unfoldment, self-integration, self-perfection, or self-purification. Such mindfulness leads us to dwell deeply in the eternity of the "now", to be aware of what is going on within and around us, and to see the same Mool in all Beings. Thinning of ego makes room for detachment, pure knowledge and wisdom, true understanding, selfless love, compassion, forgiveness, tolerance, harmony, righteousness, contentment, and joy; which helps taking care of and transforming suffering in our lives and in our society. Exercising attention to the every moment restores the quietude in us, opening doors to firsthand understanding of our living, and thereby changing the way we think and deal with others. Relaxed or still mind naturally improves our communication, behavior, conduct, assertiveness and humor. It shuns upsetting circumstances or company, destructive use of energy, frustrations, irrational ideas, and emotional upheaval and related physiological arousal. Then, when we realize the false beliefs that our conditioned mind was clinging to, they drop away. The root-cause of anger then melts away; true Love remains over; Spiritual Life (the Gurmuk Lifestyle)dawns; and one abides in the most inimitable quality of fearlessness as there will not be anxieties or conditionings.

ਹਉਮੈ ਕ੍ਰੋਧੁ ਸਬਦਿ ਨਿਵਾਰੈ ॥: Haumai krodh Shabad nivaarai: Egotism and anger are prevented through the Shabad (sggs 1057).
ਕਾਢਿ ਕੁਠਾਰੁ ਪਿਤ ਬਾਤ ਹੰਤਾ ਅਉਖਧੁ ਹਰਿ ਕੋ ਨਾਉ ॥: Kaadhi kuthaar pit baat hantaa aoukhadh har ko naaou: The Divine Name is the medicine; it is like an axe, which destroys the diseases caused by anger and egotism (sggs 714).
ਜਿਹ ਸਿਮਰਨਿ ਕਰਹਿ ਤੂ ਕੇਲ ॥ ਦੀਪਕੁ ਬਾਂਧਿ ਧਰਿਓ ਬਿਨੁ ਤੇਲ ॥ ਸੋ ਦੀਪਕੁ ਅਮਰਕੁ ਸੰਸਾਰਿ ॥ ਕਾਮ ਕ੍ਰੋਧ ਬਿਖੁ ਕਾਢੀਲੇ ਮਾਰਿ ॥: Jih simran karahi too kel. Deepak baandhio dhario binu tel. So deepak amrak sansaar. Kaam krodhh bikh kaadteelae maar: Meditating on the Divine you feel joyous. God has placed the lamp (Knowledge) deep within you, which burns without any oil. (Whosoever awakened it within) This lamp makes one immortal in the world; it conquers and drives out the poisons of lust and anger (sggs 971).
ਕਾਮ ਕ੍ਰੋਧ ਮਦ ਮਾਨ ਮੋਹ ਬਿਨਸੇ ਅਨਰਾਗੈ ॥: Kaam krodh mada maan moh binase anuraagai: Lust, anger, the intoxication of egotism and emotional attachment are dispelled, by loving devotion (sggs 818).
ਕਾਮੁ ਕ੍ਰੋਧੁ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੀ ਲੂਟਾ ॥: Kaamu krodhu gur sabadee lootaa: Gur-Shabad, the Divine Name, will release you from lust and anger (sggs 879).
ਰੋਸੁ ਨ ਕਾਹੂ ਸੰਗ ਕਰਹੁ ਆਪਨ ਆਪੁ ਬੀਚਾਰਿ ॥: Rosu na kaahoo sang karahu aapan aap beechaar: Don't be angry with anyone else; look within (Vichaar) your own self instead (sggs 259).
ਰੋਸੁ ਨ ਕੀਜੈ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਪੀਜੈ ਰਹਣੁ ਨਹੀ ਸੰਸਾਰੇ ॥: Rosu na keejai amritu peejai rahan nahee sansaare: Don't be angry - drink in the Ambrosial Nectar (of the Divine Name); you will not remain in this world forever (sggs 931).
ਬਕੈ ਨ ਬੋਲੈ ਖਿਮਾ ਧਨੁ ਸੰਗ੍ਰਹੈ ਤਾਮਸੁ ਨਾਮਿ ਜਲਾਏ ॥: Bakai na bolai khimaa dhanu sangrahai taamas naam jalaae: Don't speak empty words; burn away your anger with the Divine Name and gather the true wealth of tolerance (sggs 1013).
ਫਰੀਦਾ ਬੁਰੇ ਦਾ ਭਲਾ ਕਰਿ ਗੁਸਾ ਮਨਿ ਨ ਹਢਾਇ ॥ ਦੇਹੀ ਰੋਗੁ ਨ ਲਗਈ ਪਲੈ ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਪਾਇ ॥: Fareedaa bure daa bhalaa kari gussaa mani na hadhaai. Dehee rogu nu lagaee pallai sabhu kishu paai: Fareed says: answer evil with goodness; do not fill your mind with anger. Your body will not suffer from any disease, and you will obtain everything (sggs 1381).
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Re: relation of 5 vices
August 13, 2012 09:22PM
WOW NS44 jeee! That was an amazing postsmiling smiley
Thank you so much! That helped alot....
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Re: relation of 5 vices
August 14, 2012 05:06PM
Bhain jee,
I don’t mean to skip Sehaj. I said if you don’t keep Sehaj, then you will be skipping to attain qualities. Actually it’s a broad topic to explain and I will try to cover as much as I can.

First of all “Do we need to putt any kinda effort towards attaining things i.e. Sehaj, Santokh,Gun(qualities), ਹਮ ਨਹੀ ਚੰਗੇ ਬੁਰਾ ਨਹੀ ਕੋਇ॥: I am not good, no one is bad,
ਏਕ ਭਾਇ ਦੇਖਉ ਸਬ ਨਾਰੀ॥ਕਿਆ ਜਾਨਉ ਸਹ ਕਉਨ ਪਿਆਰੀ॥: I look upon all His Soul-brides with impartial eye, how can I know which ones are dear to the Husband Lord”.

Yes, we need to putt effort toward attaining such qualities. I have seen Gurmukh’s saying that we just need to do Path, qualities will be attained automatically/naturally.
My response is "While we need to put effort towards controlling Kaam,Karodh,lobh,moh,Ahankar,then how would you attain qualities without making an effort. If it was just matter of reading Gurbani then go read Gurbani without controlling (putting effort) your Kaam or karodh and you can imagine results!

ਘਾਲ ਨ ਮਿਲਿਓ ਸੇਵ ਨ ਮਿਲਿਓ ਮਿਲਿਓ ਆਇ ਅਚਿੰਤਾ॥ Both things need to maintained, your effort and keeping in mind “we cannot meet the Lord by our own efforts, nor can we meet him through service; by surprise He come and meet us”.


“Sehaj” I would explain it “To keep patience and be positive/chardikala, regardless of your expectations or goals were met or not by the deadline”. (I would recommend you to watch video to get better understanding).

ਕਬੀਰ ਜਉ ਗ੍ਰਿਹੁ ਕਰਹਿ ਤ ਧਰਮੁ ਕਰੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਤ ਕਰੁ ਬੈਰਾਗੁ॥ Kabeer,if you live the householder’s life, then practice righteousness; you might as well retire from the world.
ਬੈਰਾਗੀ ਬੰਧਨ ਕਰੈ ਤਾ ਕੋ ਬਡੋ ਅਭਾਗੁ॥If someone renounces the world, and then gets involved in worldly entanglements, he shall terrible misfortune॥

I would like to make it clear that all of us comes under ‘DHARM” regardless of inner Avastha, because Guru jee clearly mentioned that Gursikh should be on Grisit Marag(householder’s life).
So while living householder’s life, we should be practice righteousness. It does include cultural values, meditation, Being nice to everyone, Truth, Kirt(work) and many more.
To learn in better way about “Dharam” path(householder’s life),you need to research history of puraatan Gursikh’s ,especially puraatan Bibiaa. The way they spent lives and the qualities they are known for.

A saying “If you don’t find God in all, you wouldn’t find God at all”; An example:If you’re not able to find God in your Husband especially and in rest of your family. Then how would you find God in everyone.

If you know good and bad deeds of a person and you remember them when you meet him/her. Then you need to work on and realize him/her as Light of God (the one dear to God). To better Understand; suppose a True Gursikh in such condition and think would he ever care to Good/bad deeds of this person. No, he wouldn’t and he will be treating this person similar to others (as a soul, a light of God).I am not talking about your actions in response to that person; I am just taking about the way we should think. If someone behaves differently to people according to their good/bad deeds, then it is Maha Manmat.


So there are many/countless things/qualities we should work on and enhance them,beside meditating, because our duty to putt effort and leave rest upon SatGuru ji.

ਵਿਣ ਗੁਣ ਕੀਤੇ ਭਗਤਿ ਨ ਹੋਇ ॥

Gurbani say’s so we should work on such things and enhance our spiritual life. I am saying this cause many people would say that we just need to do meditation nothing else.

Hope I am clear in my thought's!!
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Re: relation of 5 vices
August 14, 2012 07:23PM
Bhawan Gill jee,
I think that everything is interrelated.. Its not that they mean that all you need 2 do is meditation.... With meditation all the guns come...I think?
Without meditation the never ending pyaar gursikhs have can never come.. In fact with meditation gursikhs learn how to not discriminate people based on their karamaas.. Unconditional love for all...
Jap tham sanjam karam na jaana naam japee prabh tera.. Guru sahib does everything.. Vaheguroo jee puts all the guns inside you... And even while doing paath and naam simran.... If one does the meditation properly..then one is able to do everything.....Vaheguru enables one to do everything.. I dont do anything.. I am not inherently nice.. I am inherently bad.. Inherently I am trapped by maya and by the 5 vices.. only doing naam simran can save me.. Only by taking guru's hand can I come out of this mess... With meditation I think that everything comes...mere hai avgun thoo gun saagar..
kbIr myrw muJ mih ikCu nhI jo ikCu hY so qyrw ]
kabeer maeraa mujh mehi kishh nehee jo kishh hai so thaeraa ||
Kabeer, nothing is mine within myself. Whatever there is, is Yours, O Lord.

I am nothing.. All the good guns are vaheguru's guns... One can only attain vaheguroos guns by doing naam simran... by reading and understanding gurbaanii.. Most of all guru sahibs apaar kirpaa... Everything is guru's kirpa.. Whatever guns you attain are guru jee's kirpa...Whatever niceness you have.. All these qualities are "guru's mat" guru's knowledge.. My qualities are nothing.. My thoughts are "man mat"


However, i have some questions about taking example from puraatan bibiyaa and following cultural values..
Puraatan bibiyaa I can relate to in some ways but not really? I have high aspirations for a great career so I can be independent and am able to support my parents in their old age. Okay so I might be going off topic here.. but its been on my mind for a while now so ill just say it.
"Cultural Values" aren't all that great... Cultural values are the reason why females are being aborted in Punjab.. Why there are 550 females to 1000 males in Punjab. .... My point is.. that females are considered a burden on families, because you "give them away" and they "stay home" and don't make money. And they "support their parents in their old age." These are all because of cultural implications. Females are mistreated even after they get married sometimes. My parents don't think that I will do anything for them when they are old.. Which is culture. I don't think culture goes by gurmat. Alot of the times many of the practices that we have because of culture go against gurmat. I say this because female infanticide is by no means acceptable in any society.
Also, domestic abuse in Punjab is not unheard of either..? Isn't that cultural too? Some cultural values, I agree with. Such as no boyfriend and girlfriend.. respecting your parents... etc...
In fact i have read things of puraatan bibiyaa on one website called sikhlionz.com.. ive read every article about bibiyaa there... but I want more.. I don't know where to find any? ... Do you know where I can find more?
Back to the original idea... yes I agree.. we must make an effort to control kaam,krodh,lobh,moh, and ahunkaar. Without meditation those efforts seem to render themselves useless...? I think that both are interrelated...
yes we should see god in everybody and not discriminate based on karmas...?? We should be nice to all. .and respect them for whom they are..
Being amritdhaari, bibeki, or doing paath or meditating is useless if we don't have the ability to respect others, be nice to each other.. In fact the whole entire point of doing paath is lost if we are unable to be nice...In fact at that point one can say that one is very arrogant. If that comes.. And that is ahunkaar.. then you can say the goal of vaheguroo is lost..

If one does not practice the basic principals of sikhi which include living the life of a householder, doing keerat karna..vand chakana... then no other avastha can come? I am not sure about it?

Please forgive me if I said anything wrong?

Vaheguru ji ka Khalsa
Vaheguru ji ki Fateh
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Re: relation of 5 vices
August 18, 2012 02:34PM
Bhain jee, don’t be sorry. In fact I am benefited with your thoughts.
I forget in last post to link for your better understanding ..Q& A about Gursikhi Jeeven
I don’t mean that one can be GUNI person without Jaaping Naam or Gurbani. There is nothing else other than NAAM that is source to GUN. Only NAAM is capable of everything. Naam is only solution to our all problems.
I just mean to put one’s effort to being nice and recite Naam. I stress on Gun, because while one is Gursikh, he supposed to be nice in person. So that he wouldn’t be causing people to stay Non-Sikh by his actions.
Those people who are nice in person, but they aren’t Sikh and if they find wrong behavior of a Gursikh. I think they would rather be a non-Sikh. I have met many people with that kinda thinking against those “so-called Gursikhs”. If we cause that kinda anti-Sikh thinking to people, then we are responsible for this and carrying this as a big burden on our soul.


“Cultural Values” what I mean to this word is Cultural Qualities. Yes, there are few bad things about Punjabi culture but I am talking about Sikh Culture. Our Sikh Culture, since Bebe Nanaki jee cooking food and waiting for Brother Nanak to come and enjoy Roti. Our culture started there and we have countless Jeeven, sacrifices and bhagti of Puraatan Bibiaa. There are many books written on such Gurmukh’s available in Punjab. I don’t know where your, you should ask local Sangat.

I would like to mention a story from time of Guru Hargobind Singh jee and his Gursikh. I don’t have clear memory but it would be sufficient to explain the fact.
ਇਕ ਗੁਰਮੁਖ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਸਿੰਘ ਰੋਜ਼ ਲੰਗਰ ਦੀ ਸੇਵਾ ਕਰਿਆ ਕਰਦਾ। ਬਹੁਤ ਹੀ ਨਿਮਾਣਾ ਤੇ ਨਾਮ ਰਸੀਆ ਸਿੰਘ ਸੀ। ਬੜੇ ਪਿਆਰ ਨਾਲ ਲੰਗਰ ਦੀ ਸੇਵਾ ਕਰਦਾ ਤੇ ਬਾਨੀ ਪੜਦਾ,ਨਾਮ ਜਪਦਾ।ਇਕ ਵਾਰ ਰਾਤ ਦੇ ਸਮੇ ਕੁਝ ੨-੪ ਸਿੰਘ ਉਧਰ ਆ ਗਏ ਲੰਗਰ ਸ਼ਕਨ ਲਈ । ਸਿੰਘ ਬੈਠੇ ਤੇ ਉਸ ਨੇ ਲੰਗਰ ਵਰਤਾਇਆ ਤੇ ਇਕ ਪਾਸੇ ਖੜ ਗਿਆ ਹਜੂਰੀ ਵਿਚ।ਜਦੋ ਸਿੰਘਾ ਸ਼੍ਕਨਾ ਸ਼ੁਰੂ ਕੀਤਾ ਤੇ ਸ਼੍ਕਦੇ ਸ਼੍ਕਦੇ ਇਕ ਸਿੰਘ ਗੁੱਸੇ ਵਿਚ ਬੋਲਿਆ ਕੀ "ਓਏ ਕਾਣਿਆ ਸਾਨੂੰ ਜਲਿਆ ਪਰਸ਼ਾਦਾ ਦੇ ਦਿਤਾ,ਦਿਸਦਾ ਨੀ ਤੇਨੂੰ"।
ਓਹ ਸਿੰਘ ਸੇਵਾਦਾਰ ਬਿਚਾਰਾ ਨਿਮਾਣਾ ਜਿਹਾ ਹੋ ਕੇ ਬੋਲਿਆ ਕਿ "ਮੁਆਫ ਕਰਨਾ ਜੀ ਮੇਰੇ ਤੋਂ ਬਹੁਤ ਵੱਡੀ ਭੁੱਲ ਹੋ ਗੀ। ਤੁਹਾਡੇ ਕਹੇ ਅਨੁਸਾਰ ਭਾਵੇ ਮੈਂ ਕਾਣਾ ਹੋ ਜਾਵਾ,ਪਰ ਅੱਗੇ ਤੋਂ ਇਕ ਅਖ ਨਾਲ ਵੀ ਸਹੀ ਪ੍ਰਸ਼ਾਦੇ ਬਣਾਇਆ ਕਰਾਂਗਾ ਤੇ ਅਹ੍ਹੇ ਤੋਂ ਪ੍ਰਸ਼ਾਦੇ ਜਲਨ ਨੀ ਦੇਂਦਾ "।ਸਿੰਘਾ ਪਰਸ਼ਾਦਾ ਸ਼੍ਕਿਆ ਤੇ ਓਹ ਸਿੰਘ ਗੁੱਸੇ ਚ ਚਲੇ ਗਏ।

ਕੁਝ ਦਿਨਾ ਬਾਅਦ ਛੇਵੇ ਪਾਤਸ਼ਾਹ ਟਹਿਲਦੇ ਹੋਏ ਲੰਗਰ ਵਲ ਆਏ ਤੇ ਕਿ ਦੇਖਦੇ ਨੇ ਕਿ ਇਸ ਸਿੰਘ ਦੀ ਇਕ ਅਖ ਜਾਂਦੀ ਰਹੀ,ਪਰ ਫੇਰ ਬੀ ਬੜੇ ਚਾਅ ਨਾਲ ਲੰਗਰ ਦੀ ਸੇਵਾ ਕਰੇ ਪਿਆ। ਫੇਰ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਨੇ ਨਾਲ ਦੇ ਸਿੰਘਾ ਨੂੰ ਪੁਛਿਆ ਕਿ ਹੋਇਆ ਇਸਦੀ ਅਖ ਨੂੰ ਤੇ ਪਤਾ ਲੱਗਾ ਕਿ ਏਦਾ ਭਾਣਾ ਵਰਤਿਆ ਹੈ। ਜਦੋ ਇਹ ਸੇਵਾ ਤੇ ਲਗਨ ਦੇਖੀ, ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਜੀ ਨੇ ਫੇਰ ਖੁਸ਼ੀ ਚ ਆ ਕੇ ਤਰੁਠ ਕੇ ਜੋ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਇਸ ਸਿੰਘ ਤੇ ਕੀਤੀ ਉਹ ਤਾਂ ਜਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਜਾਣਦੇ ਜਾ ਉਹ ਗੁਰੂ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਸਿੰਘ ਹੀ ਜਾਣਦਾ ਹੋਵੇਗਾ।ਪਿਆਰ ਵਿਚ ਆ ਕੇ ਏਸ ਨੂੰ ਅਜਿਹੀ ਗਲਵਕੜੀ ਪਾਈ ਮੇਰੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਨੇ ਕਿ ਦੇਖਣ ਵਾਲੇ ਵੀ ਗਦ ਗਦ ਹੋ ਗਏ।
ਦੂਜੇ ਸਿੰਘਾ ਨੂੰ ਬਹੁਤ ਡਾਂਟ ਪਈ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਪਾਸੋ।

Dhan Guru Dhan Guru Piaare

And your last answer is “NO”. If one is not living life of householder..kirt kerni…vand shakna……then no way one can attain any Avastha.
If I am not wrong, you’re thinking of just Japping Naam and why it’s not possible with Naam?? One can’t be able to Jaap Naam without these things. If you don’t believe, then only you need to do is to take leave for few days or a month and try to Jap Naam. You will find your answer if your able to Jaap Naaam or not!!

This can only be possible for Gurmukh's with immense past kamaaee and remember they are only few on this earth and don't overestimate yourself to be one of them. Give yourself a chance,if you're in doubt. Try to Jap Naam without any of pleasures mentioned above and then if you able to Jaap Naam or not. This is person with Avastha relates to second Pangti of Bhagat Kabeer jee mentioned in last post. "those who renounces world".
According to my understanding this is possible for Soul's comes from KARAM KHAND with immense past kamaaee!!
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Re: relation of 5 vices
August 19, 2012 11:52AM
I don't think one can be considered a gursikh if one isn't nice to other people. Yes, we should put in efforts. But let us remember we don't do anything.. guru sahib makes us do everything.. We are puppets of Vaheguroo jee. If we are nice its because of guru sahib's kirpa. If we are mean than its because of our own manmat...
People that have taken amrit should be held to high standards...Higher than now... When we see gursikhs we expect them to be a certain way to consider them gursikhs..People become disillusioned when they see "so-called gursikhs." But everything is vaheguru's play..Every thing that we are is because of our past karmas. If we have vadhae bhaag then we become united with the guru. Who are we to question vaheguru's khel.????
Non-sikhs can look at gursikhs and say that id rather not be that terrible so-called gursikhs. but this is hukam 2. If it is in the non-sikhs destiny to
become a sikh then he/she will become a sikh. Regardless of whatever environment he's in... We don't need to say oh so and so is making bad name of khalsa panth... rw Blw khu iks no khIAY sgly jIA qum@wry ]1] rhwau ]

buraa bhalaa kahu kis no keheeai sagalae jeea thumhaarae ||1|| rehaao ||

Tell me, who should I call good or bad, since all beings are Yours? ||1||Pause||

Yes karam is necessary...But let us not forget we don't do any karam...Whatever good we do is kirpaa of guroo sahib jeeo.....

.....
Whatever bad we do.. we do ardaas to guru sahib jio for help.. We do bhentee to guru sahib and ask him to make us better sikhs.... WE don't do anything guru sahib does everything...

One more thing.. japping naam without grehst jeevan... not going to work out.. Even with all that past kamayee a true sikh will always follow what guroo sahib told that sikh to do. Which is to live a householders life and live the life of a guru's sikh. Guru hargobind singh jee said have miri and piri.. Spiritual and temporal....Guru Hargobind Singh jee told us to become saint-soldiers..We cannot sit quietly and do naam simran in the corner of a room and just say I have lots of past kamayee so I don't need to do anything but sit in a corner of a room and do naam simran. .That defeats the point of becoming a gursikh. That defeats the point of taking amrit... Taking amrit is to bless us with strength to become saint-soldiers.. Wearing a kirpaan becomes a show when all you do is sit in the corner of a room and do naam simran..We need saint-soldiers....There are people that have been in prison for over 2 decades... That is the problem
. We must do more naam simran and read more gurbaani to give us strength.. We should also try to be physically strong... Even the females should lift-weights... in guroo sahib's time females fought alongside singh's in battle...

All that culture...whether we call it sikh culture or punjaabi culture. I don't see the difference really. I have never heard of a sikh culture.. I have had nothing but bad experiences with culture.. really my experiences with culture have led me to come to the conclusion that culture is not gurmat.... I cannot find any books on bibiyaa from where I live. I read one book that my dad brought for me Satwant Kaur.. She was amazing... I didn't learn of any culture while reading it. I learned of a gursikh singhni that got so much strength from gurbaani..nd tht she was always true to her guru...

You know people tell me that don't follow western culture..follow indian culture.. Indian culture/punjaabi culture/ sikh culture are all related.....
Khalsa doesn't have a culture.. Khalsa only fights for the truth.. khalsa is strong and brave... Khalsa treats their veers and bhens equally..
People say we should look towards culture and say that westernized culture has caused more divorces... Indian culture is great.. arranged marriages are great.. because they don't cause any divorces... That is completely untrue.. If 2 gursikhs are living togetherr. .Than they will live with the utmost humility and respect for each other.. 5 vices don't go attacking the 2 gursikhs . What I have learned that all arguments are ego arguments..... Yes disagreements happen. but they can be resolved with pyaar... Compromises can be made... For that to happen.. the wife doesn't have 2 stay at home and cook food... and clean the house. She should be able to hold a job.. She should be able to pursue whatever career she wants.. She should be able to help provide for the family... For that, the husband should help with the housework.. In my experiences females are really overworked... Because they are working,cleaning the house, taking care of children... That is culture..
Sometimes I hear people claim that this culture is necessary to prevent divorces..
This culture is not gurmat by any standards.
IF 2 gursikhs are gursikhs than they won't be divorced....
This is only one example of the negative effects of culture... I could state more..
Jeevan and sacrifices of puraatan bibyaa are not culture to me. They are examples of gursikhs. I feel that one can only look towards guru for how to live one's life. And nobody else... because only guru is perfect.. Culture is manmade... Guru jee is perfect. Only HE is perfect...

So really I cannot be convinced to look at culture in a positive light.. Ive seen and experienced nothing but negative things with culture..
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Re: relation of 5 vices
August 20, 2012 11:28AM
wicked words singhni jeeo - absolutely fantastic- spoken like a true Khalsa -
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Re: relation of 5 vices
August 20, 2012 12:55PM
Quote

We cannot sit quietly and do naam simran in the corner of a room and just say I have lots of past kamayee so I don't need to do anything but sit in a corner of a room and do naam simran. .That defeats the point of becoming a gursikh. That defeats the point of taking amrit... Taking amrit is to bless us with strength to become saint-soldiers.. Wearing a kirpaan becomes a show when all you do is sit in the corner of a room and do naam simran..We need saint-soldiers....There are people that have been in prison for over 2 decades... That is the problem

But this is hardly our problem in Panth today? The problem today is not that Gurmukhs are sitting in a corner and just doing Simran but the problem is doing all the other activities and not devoting time to Simran and obeying Hukams of Guru Sahib. The problem today is that we want to compromise on Rehit, Amritvela, Gurbani Paath and Naam Simran but also want to do Parchaar of Sikhi. What Parchaar can we do of Sikhi when we ourselves don't follow Gurmat?


Quote

yes we should see god in everybody and not discriminate based on karmas...?? We should be nice to all. .and respect them for whom they are..
Being amritdhaari, bibeki, or doing paath or meditating is useless if we don't have the ability to respect others, be nice to each other.. In fact the whole entire point of doing paath is lost if we are unable to be nice...In fact at that point one can say that one is very arrogant. If that comes.. And that is ahunkaar.. then you can say the goal of vaheguroo is lost..

You are correct in saying that we must see Vaheguru in all and should not look down on anyone. We should offer unconditional love for all but all this should be done within the constraints of Gurmat. We should love all but this does not mean that we should do Sangat of cobras, lions and other wild animals. We have to take care when treading around them. Same way, using Bibek Budh given by Guru Sahib, we have to avoid Sangat of such people who are devoid of Gurmat Prema-Bhagti. Gurbani clearly gives us Hukam to judge people (at personal level and not publically) and then do Sangat of people:

ਮਨਮੁਖ ਸਉ ਕਰਿ ਦੋਸਤੀ ਸੁਖ ਕਿ ਪੁਛਹਿ ਮਿਤ ॥ ਗੁਰਮੁਖ ਸਉ ਕਰਿ ਦੋਸਤੀ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸਉ ਲਾਇ ਚਿਤੁ ॥
(When doing friendship with a Manmukh, then don't ask for happiness, O friend. Do friendship with Gurmukh and this way focus your mind on Satguru)

The above Hukam is very clear. Guru Sahib is asking us to avoid friendship with Manmukhs and to do friendship with Gurmukhs. We have to see Vaheguru in all beings including Manmukhs but we are also given Hukam to use Bibek Budh and recognize who Manmukhs are and then avoid friendship with them.

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How does one maintain nimartha??? Like I try to do seva every sunday at gurdwara for a little bit... But is there anything else.?? I realized when I don't do seva... then my sense of happiness that comes from doing paath or whatever just goes away.. Like I become proud that I did paath. So then I realize homai attacked me..So then all whatever i did just went to the garbage can

Physical Seva of Panth, Gursikhs, Gurdwara Sahib etc. is important but to say that if you don't do this Seva, you would get Haume or all your Kamaaee of Naam and Gurbani would go to garbage is fetching it too far. The reason that we do physical Seva is to get Kirpa from Guru Sahib so that we are enabled to do Naam Simran and Gurbani Paath. But no one can take away the Kamaaee of Naam Simran and Gurbani Paath, except for our sins.

According to Gurbani the only way to get rid of Haume is through the Shabad of Guru. Real Nimrata also comes with Gyaan that comes from Naam Abhyaas and Gurbani Paath. It is through Gurbani Paath that you realize Pyaara Vaheguru in everyone and that in turns brings love and respect for everyone. There are so many Sevadaars in Aanmat organizations like Red Cross, Food Banks etc. who do a lot of physical Seva but they don't get Gurmat Nimrata or get rid of Haume. Yes they do good work and they would be rewarded accordingly but nothing can match the real Seva of Vaheguru - Naam dee Seva.

Bhul chuk dee Muaafi jee.

Kulbir Singh
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Re: relation of 5 vices
August 20, 2012 03:22PM
Thank you so much Bhai Kulbir Singh jeeo!

That gives me so much relief that physical seva is not necessary for nimarta.. because i do not have time to go to gurdwara all the time.. I have alot of work... I can just do naam abhiyaas and read gurbaani and do ardaas and nimarta will come.that makes life way easier...smiling smiley . I do not want to have homai attacking and picking at me all the time... Its quite painful you know...

And yes you make alot of sense with the aspect of sangat! Because I find myself too easily influenced by the people around me..!! I just remembered a few years ago there came a point in my life that because of the wrong sangat.. that I almost commited a huge sin... did ardaas to guru sahib jeeo.. to either give me good sangat or to not give me any sangat at all...
I remembered that... I mean sometimes i feel lonely..like really lonely... But then I know reminded that guru sahib is angsang.. committing a huge sin with the wrong sangat would be 1000000 times worse than being alone...The guilt that would come with that sin would be far worse than being alone... so thank you so much for writing what you wrote! I just remembered why I did ardaas to guru sahib for that..


Its actually true that it isn't a problem that gursikhs are sitting alone and doing naam simran.. I agree...i really do...
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Re: relation of 5 vices
August 20, 2012 03:33PM
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That gives me so much relief that physical seva is not necessary for nimarta.. because i do not have time to go to gurdwara all the time.. I have alot of work... I can just do naam abhiyaas and read gurbaani and do ardaas and nimarta will come.that makes life way easier... . I do not want to have homai attacking and picking at me all the time... Its quite painful you know...

Please don't misunderstand me. I don't mean to say that we are not required to do physical Seva because without Gursikhs doing physical Seva, the Akhand Kirtan Samagams and Siri Akhand Paath Samagams are not possible. Langar and Degh are part of the Samagams and these can't be done without Gursikhs who do physical Seva. These Samagams are often done at Gurdwara Sahibaan and to maintain a Gurdwara Sahib, we need Gursikhs doing physical Seva there e.g. cleaning, washing etc. Physical Seva is, no doubt, required. My point is not that physical Seva is not required. My point was that if a Gursikh is more involved in Naam and Gurbani Seva, and skips physical Seva, due to lack of time or other innocent reason, then his or her Kamaaee can't be considered to have gone to garbage as you had originally written. Naam Kamaaee is not lost if a Gursikh does less physical Seva.

Kulbir Singh
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Re: relation of 5 vices
August 20, 2012 03:35PM
On the contrary - i reckon that is way way to easy way to easy - sitting at home and doing naam and abhiaas - for nimrata - " how will u ever gt tested ??? real test of it is going to be when you go out in the world and deal with issues that are in the panth - a remote thing that not many dare to do.

If you read Bhai Rama Singh jee's book - clearly it's mentioned that the force of nimrata increased massivley for him while he was doing seva of joras at the local Gurdwara as well as Naam abyiaas.

Haume - or five vices will lessen their force will lessen for you if you have naam abhyiaas going in surtee - or Japji going on in surtee while doing all the normal day to day duties - but it takes a while for one to achieve that status coculd be a number of years or months to setttle the body in that pattern

I am sorry - but i disagree - seva of all forms is necessary for Khalsa as well as naam abyaais - Gurbani abyiaas. - that is my 2 cents.
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Re: relation of 5 vices
August 20, 2012 03:47PM
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On the contrary - i reckon that is way way to easy way to easy - sitting at home and doing naam and abhiaas - for nimrata - " how will u ever gt tested ??? real test of it is going to be when you go out in the world and deal with issues that are in the panth - a remote thing that not many dare to do.

Who says it is easy to sit home and do Naam Abhyaas? Try sitting in the room of your basement for a whole day, japping Naam. Just see how your mind will beg you to leave and do something "important". You will remember all sorts of urgencies and emergencies. The mind (unless it realizes Hari Rass) hates to stay within and wants to run out, through the 9 doors of this body. People think it's a joke to sit alone in a corner of your house, to do Naam Abhyaas but Gurbani has made it clear that it's very difficult to utter the true Naam:


ਆਖਣਿ ਅਉਖਾ ਸਾਚਾ ਨਾਉ ॥
(It's difficult to say the True Naam).

There are millions of people out there who are doing physical Seva (it's a good thing to do, don't misunderstand me) and even Aanmatees (non Sikhs) are doing massive Seva of serving the humanity but there are very very rare beings who can tame their mind to do constant Naam Abhyaas. Then who says doing Naam Abhyaas is easy. Perhaps just saying Naam from the mouth is easy but to say Naam with Pooran Gurmat Vidhi that involves stopping the worldly thoughts and listening to Dhuni of Naam with utmost concentration and love, is extremely extremely difficult.

We can say Naam only when we have immense immense immense Kirpa of Vaheguru. Everything else in this world is easy to do as compared to getting the Mind to do Naam Abhyaas while stopping all worldly thoughts. Yes, after one gets Naam Rass, it becomes easy to do Naam Abhyaas but till then, it's "Sil Jog Alooni chatni".

Kulbir Singh
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Re: relation of 5 vices
August 20, 2012 04:06PM
I don't think the current problem in the Panth is that people are sitting quietly at the corner of their room doing too much Naam Simran. In fact, the opposite is the problem. How many Amritdharis keep Amritvela? barely any(I confess even I miss my Amitvela half the time like I did today). Many Amritdharis even miss their Nitnem. If one were to survey the average Amritdhari, one will easily come to the conclusion that Naam Simran is lacking. Same thing with our Kathakars and Kirtanis in the Gurdwara. They can do all the kind of Parchar they want with great oratory skills, but if their words are not backed by the Shakti that comes from doing Bhagti then their Parchar will not do much. One just needs to look at Sant Attar Singh Mastuanaywale. He spent years doing a great amount of Bhagti. After that he did Parchar and what Parchar it was. Literally Lakhs of people became Sikhs due to his Parchar. He wasn't a great speaker with fancy oratory skills like many of today's parcharaks, but he had the blessings of Guru Jee and that kind of blessing comes from doing Bhagti.

Another example is Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale. Why did his words change so many people and awaken the Panth? The speeches he did about Sikh rights were also said by many Sikh politicians even before Sant Jee started doing it yet the words of the Sikh politicians did not move the Panth. Sant Jee's words could awaken the sleeping Panth was because his words were backed by Bhagti. He did 100 Paaths of Japji Sahib everyday and he did that for years. He was strict in rehet and kept Amritvela.

May Guru Jee bless us all with rehet, amritvela and Simran.
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Re: relation of 5 vices
August 20, 2012 04:16PM
Kulbir Singh jeeeo - very true sir .
I'm very sorry , the tone of your email was misunderstood - hence as per my comments we must all we can is the motto.

However even when we say "It's far too easy for us to say everything in the world is easy to do " - is also generalising as we have no way of knowing of one person is going through in life.
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Re: relation of 5 vices
August 20, 2012 05:11PM
Well Explained Veer Kulbir Singh jeo!


Last thing I would like to say that If You believe in the power of NAAM and you have your mind set at meditating on NAAM is only should done. Then go for it, meditate on NAAM.

The word MAYA and Humae are very broad and beyond comprehension. Things we feel, understand and things we see in this world, aren’t true as they seems like. MAYA and Humae make feel ourselves way better than we are.

Few examples in the light of Gurbani:

BAIRAAG

If I ask you, what is Bairaag? What are those moments when you can say that this person is in Bairaag?

One can have thought in mind that when a person listen to or read Gurbani, then sometime he have tears coming out his eyes, Do this Bairaag? Or sometimes when he do Ardaas, having tears coming out eyes?

If we ask Guru Jee, What is Bairaag? My Guru jee had explained in Gurbani in short and clear!
According to what I have understood through Gurbani and Sangat. Guru jee clearly explained the Correct meaning of BAIRAAG in this TUK.

ਮਨਿ ਬੈਰਾਗੁ ਭਇਆ ਦਰਸਨੁ ਦੇਖਣੈ ਕਾ ਚਾਉ॥

A person kinda dying to have a sight of his lover one (the God), he is in Bairaag and only person with this immense wish can be defined as BAIRAAG.

Do we believe in the power of NAAM

Yes, we all would say that we believe in power of NAAM, but are we correct? Do we really believe in it?
Very easy and simple way of figure it out!

Only the person putting effort towards meditating on NAAM, have real believe or trust in NAAM. A person with having continues effort on meditating NAAM and he will be pushing himself all the day and night to meditate on NAAM. Apparently, most of his daily routine using up for Swaas –Swaas Abhyaas while doing his chores.
I am saying this because our MANN/mind, it just makes us feel that, Yes, we believe in NAAM and we don’t need to think of using other precautions or doing other things that helps us to meditate. While we are using DEIT BIBEK, BANA and other External rehit , We do need to keep internal Rehit.

ਅਪੁ ਤੇਜੁ ਬਾਇ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮੀ ਆਕਾਸਾ॥ ਐਸੀ ਰਹਤ ਰਹਉ ਹਰਿ ਪਾਸਾ॥ ਕਹੈ ਕਬੀਰ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਧਿਆਵਉ ॥ ਤਿਤ ਘਰਿ ਜਾਉ ਜਿ ਬਹੁਰਿ ਨ ਆਵਉ॥

Kabir jee say’s, while your meditating on NAAM, stay in the rehit your supposed to live in. Which one? The Rehit Water, fire, wind, earth and Sky are following to.

Water: - Be always in Nimrta, the way water stays at lower side. Love others, the way water droops stay together.
Fire: - Be as a burning soul in separation from God, Remember your separated due to your bad deeds and Stay as a fire of separation that will burn your bad deeds and sins.
Wind: - Be nice to everyone regardless of their good/bad deeds or poor/rich ,don’t discriminate, same as Wind is serving everyone from king to slaves.
Earth:- The way earth shows her affections to treat us as her children, Love everyone and see light of the GOD in everyone.
Sky:- Always maintain a Level like Sky in your Spiritual life and in your character. Morally,You should stay above like sky.

So, while we are supposed to keep External Rehit, we need to keep Internal Rehit too. We should never forget, The External Rehit is there to help to maintain and encourage our Real Internal Rehit.

Same as Gurbani encourage us to meditate on NAAM. End of the day, we need to meditate on NAAM and enhance our Internal Rehit, which is only possible if we read Gurbani and keep External Rehit.

Forgive me for my mistake're obvious!
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Re: relation of 5 vices
August 20, 2012 10:39PM
I agree seva should be physical as well as mental.. But i am not ruined if i don't do seva one week..because i have too many things I need to take care of... so that is why i felt relief.
Bhai Kulbir Singh jeeo,

Manmukhs.. Gurbaani says do not associate with them..
But who are we to define who is right and who is wrong.......
burw Blw khu iks no khIAY sgly jIA qum@wry ]1] rhwau ]

buraa bhalaa kahu kis no keheeai sagalae jeea thumhaarae ||1|| rehaao ||

Tell me, who should I call good or bad, since all beings are Yours? ||1||Pause||


It depends on what our definition of manmukh is..... I dont understand how we can define anybody as manmukhs... What is your definition of manmukh.. One who does not do their nitnem everyday.. one who does not follow sikhi... one who does not.. do amritvela.. Does nindiyaa chugli.. Has boyfriend and girlfriend..... and flirts with people.. .And doesn't do seva.. Bhai sahib jee.. I know alot of people that do that.. Who are we to say I cannot associate myself with you. Who am I.. Am I some great gurmukh? Great gurmukhs had pyaar for everybody.. regardless of how much nindiyaa or kesh they didn't keep......Gursikhs gave me so much love... I cannot even start... to describe.. how much love.. even that much love my relatives couldn't give me.... I am the biggest paapi in the world.... I am sure gursikhs knew what a big paapi I was and still am...really
So how can we say that I cannot associate myself with you.......
Do not follow manmukhs I get, I completely understand.. follow your own guru... but if that manmukh wants to keep friendship with you... then you lovingly stay friends with your friend.. and do paath.. and do naam simran.... you stay in their company but make sure your mind is strong.. in your naam abhiyaas.... no filth can touch one who is strong in their sikhii... In your company they might even change.. who knows???
If i followed that I wouldn't be associating myself with anybody in my family.. I am only amritdhaari sikh...I cannot physically do that.. I long for darshan of gurmukhs.. all the time... really... but that doesn't mean I cannot have sukh alone.. I cannot have sukh with my family..... that doesn't mean i can't do naam simran.... that doesnt mean i can't read guru granth sahib jee... or listen to keertan.. or bring my fruit or yogurt with me when they go to restaurant to eat.....because i am trying to be gurmukh.. i dont' know what i am.. really..

As for amrit vela.....those people who don't do it everyday are missing out on an amazing experience.. We don't do amrit vela for guru sahib.. We aren't doing HIM a favor.. we do it for ourselves.. Guru sahib will do apaar kirpaa... only with guru sahib's apaar kirpa can anybody wake up during that blessed time. Gursikhi is priceless... Those who throw the jewel in the garbage can by not waking up are losing out.. on getting out of this world.. This maya.. This attachment.. this money.. these 5 vices......Amritvela brings nothing but sukh .......

Parchaar needs to be done... What i meant by sitting in a corner and doing naam simran was.. That we need to wake up.. parchaar needs to be done.. 3/4 of people in punjab are hooked on to drugs.. people are living below poverty.. There are sikhs in prison... for 2 decades now! Why cant we see that.. We go around protest for rajouna for 1 day.. for 1 month.. we are japping his name... but then nobody cares... after.. about those sikhs in prison.. We spend 1000 of dollars in rainsabayees in paying for plane tickets to get this singh from London to do keertan in california......Gurbaanii is supposed to be done because we love gurbaani..not because so and so is doing keertan..not because this person is diong it..... We need parchaar.. We need people to help the singhs in prison..... This is my problem with singhs and singhniyaa sit in a corner and do naam simran.. they cannot see how we have let people live in prison.. And thos chardikala singhns have faith that one day.. they will be freed. with guru sahib's apaaar kirpa...... We need to UNITE... I am tired of this akj, taksaal, and nihung... or whatever... the fact of the matter is that we all believe dhan dhan dhan dhan sri guru gobind singh jee maharaaj to be our father.. and that is it... if they read ragmala or not.. they do whatever... We need to help those singhs in prison....They have been there for 20 years.... longer than some kids have been alive....... I know we can all agree on the fact that people are in prison.. and sitting in a corner and doing naam simran...and ignoring every other jatha that exists out there isn't going to help... that is what i mean by sitting in a corner and doing naam simran
We need to feel love for all.. regardless of what rehit or whatever they follow..we need to become friends.. Everybody thinks they are right?????? YOu tell this girl that she is wrong for plucking her eyebrows.. she'll tell you.. i am right .. who are you to tell me what to do?? We need to let guru sahib do apaar apaar kirpa... because only guru sahib can bring sikhs onto his path.... everything in HIS hukam...

Bhul chuk di maaj karni jio..
Please forgive me if I offended anybody..


Vaheguru ji ka khalsa
Vaheguru ji ki Fateh!!!!!
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Re: relation of 5 vices
August 21, 2012 12:27PM
OK it seems the thread started on 5 vices - then went on to manmukh - gurmukh - and then onto panthic issues and also naam simran seva.

I think we need to really clarify what we're discussing here.

Panthic issues - yes - every panth in the world has issues - no one is without them. I feel today's sikhs are more complacent and have become narrow - he panth is in chardi kala - massive chadi kala and will remain so as long as we have dhan dhan SGGS as maharaj is partak roop.

I remember baba raam singh of taksal once mentioend that we all focus too much on problems then we become the problem - how many of us have ever thought that the growth of Sikhism across the western world is the fastest among any religion . Khalsa will rule -

Parchar - of course is a massive at present - on keertan darbars, katha, Akand paaths etc etc- however where it's lower is where Khalsa actually shows the way of living by Khalsa ideals and priniciples -this is where it's all gone wrong by each of us having our own jathebandi Gurdwaras; cast Gurdwaras -- until this mold back to one - I can't see a way out. DOn;t misunderstand this point there are great people wihtin jathebandi'with very universal views and beautiful jeevans who are and continue to immense seva - we cannot ever PAINT everyone with the same brush.
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Re: relation of 5 vices
August 21, 2012 12:33PM
I agree with you ns44 jee... You are completely right

Vaheguru ji ka Khalsa
Vaheguru ji ki Fateh
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