Caste

What has Bhai Sahib Bhai Randheer Singh Ji written/said about caste? Also, what have other Gurmukhs said about caste?

Bhai Kulbir Singh Ji and others, please share your own vichaaran on caste, pinds, got, etc.

Quote

What has Bhai Sahib Bhai Randheer Singh
Ji written/said about caste? Also, what have
other Gurmukhs said about caste?

Most likely CONTRARY to what you believe in.............

Bhai JaspeeetSingh jee, I thank there has been a misunderstanding, obviously Bhai Sahib was against caste, and so am I, in fact I detest it! I was hoping that if we share what Bhai Sahib said and what Gursikhs have to say, we can have good material for anti-caste parchaar. Let us rid the panth of caste!

Caste does not exist in the true Mandals of Khalsa. The Jaat Paat of Gursikhs is Satguru jee. Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh jee's Jatha is perhaps closest to following this Hukam of Guru Sahib of not recognizing one's Jaat Paat. In some other contemporary Jathas and organization at the time of Bhai Sahib, there were even two Langars - one for so called high castes and other for so called low castes. Some organizations even had discrimination against so called low castes at the time of Amrit Sinchaar.

Guru Sahib's Hukam is very clear on this. A Sikh loses his Jaat Paat after becoming a Sikh through Amrit Sinchaar.

Kulbir Singh

In his book "Rangley Sajjan", Bhai Sahib has praised those Gurmukhs who have lived up to the high Khalsa principles of renouncing caste distinctions. ALso, in "Rangley Sajjan", Bhai Sahib mentions an incident when him and the Jatha went to Chamkur Sahib to pay respects at the historical Gurdwara Sahib. When approaching the Gurdwara Sahib they were denied access from some Pakhandi Nihang SInghs who took control over the Gurdwara Sahib management.

Eventually the local authorites got involved and created a " peace agreement". The agreement said the Singhs would be allowed to visit the Gurdwara Sahib, but the " low caste" were still prohibited from entering the Gurdwara premisses. When Bhai Sahib read this letter he ripped it up and said he would never agree to such terms. He explained to the Chrsitian and Muslim officials how Gurmat does not suppot caste distinctions the same way Christianity and Islam does not support caste distinctions

Very positive replies. Thank you veers.

A few more theoretical questions:

1) What if a Gursikh believes firmly in never using surname - is it then right for others to question at time of marriage proposals what surname is, under pretext of checking that surnames are not the same? Is this right? Are we not all one family any way and shouldnt it be enough to just know that you are not blood related by virtue of not having any connections?

2) Why do people ask about pinds and is this right for Gursikhs? Where does 'Anandpur de vasi' come into it?

While I can agree with the statement that Bhai Sahib and his Jatha did not believe in caste, I am not convinced the contemporary AKJ actually follows this properly. They may do so on a purely theoretical basis, but the truth comes out when one is in the process of marriage. Perhaps it is different in India and Canada (though I doubt it)l but in the UK caste is still a very big problem amongst so called Gursikhs. 

No doubt, Guru Sahib's Hukam is very clear on this, but I think if I had to say which Jatha (out of AKJ, Taksal, Nihangs) believed in Caste (with relation to marriage) the most, I would have to say it is the AKJ.  

My personal experience shows this to be very evident. In fact, I am ashamed to say, that even the most prominent AKJ Gursikhs will ask "What is your surname?" or "What village are you from?". One of the most subtle of these questions is "Do you have land?". I know that these questions do not seem to be invoking that Gursikhs explicitly believe in Caste, but one has to read between the lines. "MaiKoNaRakhanda" you are right to point out those subtle questions people ask, and while I don't actually believe we all need to forsake our surnames, it is nevertheless a screening process for people to choose the 'right Jaat'.

I think it is a big problem in Sikhi. As I have said, there are so may people who will state they don't believe in caste, but how many of them marry within their own caste? Perhaps even Bhai Sahib can be criticised for this.

Thank you HS1NGH ji for sharing... I do have to disagree with one thing though, when you said that perhaps Bhai Sahib can be criticised for this - Bhai Sahib was married before he took Amrit so we can't criticise Bhai Sahib for anything like that. There is no doubt that a brahmgyani like Bhai Randhir Singh Ji did not have any belief or adherence to caste.

Also, I cant find it now but I 100% remember reading a something written by a Gursikh from Bhai Sahib's times praising Bhai Sahib for organising inter caste marriages. Can someone please post that here.

Anyone have any thoughts on the questions in my previous post?

Actually, what I remembered reading was Bhai Sahib writing praise of Rangle Sajjan Jathedar Bhai Ram Singh Ji Gujerwal:

"He would break the shackles of caste and get individuals of all castes Baptised without any reserve. He would encourage Sikh marriages, Anand Karaj, without consideration of caste. This was an outstanding service in the cause of faith. In fact he set an early example in the case of his own marriage out of caste and then kept helping others." (Rangle Sajjan)

There is no doubt Bhai Sahib believed completley in inter-caste equality and marriage, and called encouraging it an 'outstanding service'.

Caste abstinence in all forms is a rehat just as important as every other rehat, and we should follow it with exactly as much drrirta (firmness) as others. We must stay away from this gandh that is caste at all costs.

MaiKoNaRakhanda You are most likely correct right about the claim regarding Bhai Sahib. I am familiar with the story from Rangle Sanjjan. Does anyone know if Bhai Sahib's children married within the same caste? If they did, that would perhaps show his real view on it because many people think they don't believe in caste, but do things that contradict such assertions.

If you have such doubt about Bhai Sahib to the extent you think he would follow something against gurmat and something he himself professed to be against, then those are your views. I don't know what the 'caste' of the people Bhai Sahib's children married are, and neither do I care. For me and I am sure virtually all others whatever the answer is makes no difference to the fact that Bhai Sahib was through and through against caste.

If they happen to coincidently be the same 'caste' it does not mean that Bhai Sahib did this on purpose and believed in it. The idea is you don't ask caste and don't use that to decide not to marry.

HS1NGH Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> MaiKoNaRakhanda You are most likely correct right
> about the claim regarding Bhai Sahib. I am
> familiar with the story from Rangle Sanjjan. Does
> anyone know if Bhai Sahib's children married
> within the same caste? If they did, that would
> perhaps show his real view on it because many
> people think they don't believe in caste, but do
> things that contradict such assertions.

The current situation in India is no different. From outside it is emphasized that caste holds no grounds but when it comes to marriage, many are very much interested in knowing ones caste, land, status etc.

If I could add on a funnier but sadly very true side:
There is another "caste" which is prevalent for a long time now. The NRI caste. If one belongs to the NRI caste then you hold highest status/cast (your family caste, background now just become irrelevant), especially when it comes to marriage proposals.

There still are Singhs who practice/follow the Khalsa teachings of no caste/colour etc. but sadly many do not and the above is a classic example.

By the way, I don't mean any kind of dis-respect to the NRI sangat.
This is the actually ground reality and in fact the NRI sangat must definitely have faced this themselves, many times.

Quote
TejasV
The current situation in India is no different. From outside it is emphasized that caste holds no grounds but when it comes to marriage, many are very much interested in knowing ones caste, land, status etc.

If I could add on a funnier but sadly very true side:
There is another "caste" which is prevalent for a long time now. The NRI caste. If one belongs to the NRI caste then you hold highest status/cast (your family caste, background now just become irrelevant), especially when it comes to marriage proposals.

There still are Singhs who practice/follow the Khalsa teachings of no caste/colour etc. but sadly many do not and the above is a classic example.

By the way, I don't mean any kind of dis-respect to the NRI sangat.
This is the actually ground reality and in fact the NRI sangat must definitely have faced this themselves, many times.

This is very true Singh jeo. I noticed this myself when I was in Punjab. Just yesterday I spoke over phone to a singh who told me how he was treated badly people in bana because he belonged to a family of low cast.

Chota veer

Caste discrimination is like termite that keeps working towards weakening the panth.... Daas and family all our life not only within Jatha but also other key groups of the panth has found that this is very very activerly prevalent. Apart from a very very very few chardhi kala gursikhs everyone else is completely bitten by this casteism snake. No one wants to marry in to your family if your background is one of the low castes. Not only this, its also very much shown in all walks of dharmik life e.g. getting time to do kirtan seva, seva in panj etc

Daas has a very interesting fact from Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh's life. But its probably not right to discuss on public forums. Based on that one thing daas can very clearly say that Bhai Sahib was 200% against casteism and caste descrimination on all platforms be it family relations or dharmik life. Sadly the majority of the members of jatha do not follow that asool anymore.

vaheguroo jee

to disregard a person based on which family they were born, what kind of property they own, or on their physical appearance is the pinnacle of ignorance. castes have no place at all in gurmat, yet caste discrimination is prevalent to the extent that even gursikh families who claim to hold no importance to castes will, in a roundabout fashion, try to find out which caste the other person is. i myself have been raised in a western civilization environment where castes are a joke, a lot of my friends who aren't from india laugh at the idea that people from india have preconceived notions on a persons character based on what their family name is. i myself find this to be idiotic, my parents will often look at someone when they come back from a party or a gurduwara and say, "oh did you see that person, they looked like they were this caste", i would ask them how they knew that and they would reply (as if it were the most obvious thing ever) "all people in this caste act like this". It still eludes me how people can make such a huge generalization about someone who they have just met, and probably don't even know there name.

vaheguroo jee