Panthic Maryada in regards to Akhand Paath

Today I received a phone call from my brother who lives in Canada. It seems like somebody was crying to him about my poems in regards to AKhand Paath Maryada. He told my brother I was being anti-panthic for writing such things. I just want to make some things clear. In regards to panthic maryada.

Panthic Maryada says one should not force others to read or not read raag mala . Meaning its a personal preference . Since its a personal preference I have the right to support the puratan maryada which states Bhog is after Mundavani. Refer to Bhai Chaupa SIngh Jis rehatnama and Kavi Santokh SIngh Jis suraj parkaah.

Panthic Maryada states Akhand Paath should not be done with another paath along side. Now if some new age group wants to encourage this new age maryada which violates panthic maryada then I have the right to voice my opinion. Likewise the maryada of reciting Raag Mala and Sri JapJi Sahib afterwards is a new age maryada as well. I love listen to Mundavani at the end of Bhog because it praises Gurbani ( naam) to the full and teaches us Gurbani Naam gives us three foods for our soul Sat , santokh , and veechar. One who eats this will be liberated. When one listens to this at the end of an AKahnd Paath it inspires us to want to recite more Gurbani naam so we can eat this divine food which is going to liberate us.

Once again its not anti panthic to say Raag Mala is not Gurbani. Kavi Santokh SIngh JI , Bhai Vir Singh Ji, Bhai Kahn SIngh Nabha , Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir SIngh Ji, Maskeen JI, and Talwara JI have all spoke AGAINST raag mala, but who will care them pantic servants as anti panthic. Nobody in the last two centuries has producued Gurmat literature to extent of these Gursikhs.

THis is not a debate about Raag Mala. I just wrote this to clear up my views on AKhand Paath Panthic Maryada.

The rules on the top of this forum say "constructive and respectful debates are encouraged." and "Vulgar language will not be allowed."

However I feel the recent posts against raag maala have been disrespectful. Writing a few rhyming lines and calling it a poem is just an excuse to create a venue for bickering about a generations old disagreement in the panth. Similarly, a "poem" about how sangtee style keertan done by the jatha is manmat and gurmat sangeet in nirdhaarat raags is the only way, would probably not be allowed on this forum. I

Keep in mind, there are many people from other jathebandis who visit this forum because of its focus on gurmat. They wouldn't mind a debate on raagmala, but they would be hurt by these types of low-brow attacks. Again, constructive debates should be allowed and anyone should be welcome to share their knowledge about either side of an issue, including raagmala. However, cheap language veiled as "poetry" doesn't look good on Gurmukhs like yourselves.

What I find disturbing is how admin allowed your recent posts through but blocked any replies.

The admin closed the topics to avoid confrontation. Many posts criticizing Sukhdeep Singh's Mundavani and Raagmala posts were allowed; so the admin cannot be accused of discriminating.

It is not wrong to consider Raagmala Kachi Baani or to write a genuine experience of Akhand Paath Sahib but we encourage our members to avoid hurting other people's feelings and at the same time request others to be more magnanimous in accepting views differing from theirs.

Admin.

Confused Singh Jeeo,

Try to think outside of the box. There are many people who know Raag Mala is not Gurbani. One cannot do seva on Guru JIs charan kamal while listening to such things. Try to understand its very painful to listen to such things in the holy house of my SatGuru JI. Just like its painful when we see people perform the hindu worship of Aaarti in some Gurdwara Sahibs. Many so called Gursikhs believe in this pracice. If I wrote against that you would not say anything. But for some reason you are offended by critical views on Raag Mala.

Admin Jeeo -

Same way then it should not be a problem if a Jathedar comes and says Raagmala is Bani and issues a Hukam as such. Just like all people with any sort of Panthic dard said that that was the wrong statement to make it is similarly wrong to say that Raagmala believers are just letting 5 vikaar into their lives. I have many friends that are pro and anti Raagmala but if either of them used their belief to suggest that the other was creating susceptibility to 5 vikaar I would consider it wrong.

Overall I am personally very disappointed with the lack of Panthic stance that this forum has taken - apparently writing poems about an issue over 100 yrs old is more productive than writing about how we as Sikhs can go and take care of the disease of Alcohol in Punjab - sure we may talk about it but talk is cheap, so let's focus on things we can DO and not try to demean Gursikhs on either side of the debate.

Sorry if I have offended anyone but honestly the last few days of seeing these topics on this thread has created a sense of disillusionment with the type of discussion being propogated on this forum.

Guru Sahib Kirpa Karan ke asee sarey Panthic soch nu pehra de sakhiye

Sukhdeep Singh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Confused Singh Jeeo,
>
> Try to think outside of the box. There are many
> people who know Raag Mala is not Gurbani. One
> cannot do seva on Guru JIs charan kamal while
> listening to such things. Try to understand its
> very painful to listen to such things in the holy
> house of my SatGuru JI. Just like its painful
> when we see people perform the hindu worship of
> Aaarti in some Gurdwara Sahibs. Many so called
> Gursikhs believe in this pracice. If I wrote
> against that you would not say anything. But for
> some reason you are offended by critical views on
> Raag Mala.

Exactly! Because Raagmala is a more sensitive issue. There were Amazing Gurmukhs on both sides. It is such an old debate that it should just be left alone. Whats the point in bringing it up. I am seriously disappointed that it was even allowed in the first place, on such a prestigious Forum.

Tarun Singh jee,

The Jathedar represents the whole Panth and as such cannot make a unilateral move to declare Raagmala as Gurbani. Same holds true for Iqbal Singh who in his capacity as Jathedar of Patna Sahib should not be making such statements. On the other hand Jathedar Dhumma of Taksal is free to make such statements that propagate Raagmala and they are making such statements in lectures and by publishing the book in favour or Raagmala. Same way, Akhand Kirtani Jatha or its members can write about Raagmala not being Baani.

I do agree that Muhazzab (civilized) language should be used when writing about these sensitive issues. I did not find anything wrong in the Mundavani poem of Sukhdeep Singh but later on realized that his poem on experience about Siri Akhand Paath Sahib may have offended some because he used the word diseased. When I first read it, I did not find it offensive obviously because of my own stance of Raagmala is that it is not Baani but when some members posted that they were offended, I realized that the poem may have been offensive to some.

My dad who is not an Amritdhari person, listened to Bhog of Siri Akhand Paath Sahib, many many years ago, and asked me what Rachna was read at the Bhog of Siri Akhand Paath Sahib. He said that it seemed out of place. Having said that, perhaps Sukhdeep Singh jee, you should use a bit more Muhazzab language to express your views on Raagmala.

Kulbir Singh

Guru Piyare Bhai Sukhdeep Singh Jio,

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

When Guru Sahib allows the time Daas reads your posts but most of the time they come from emotions set and some time not as factual as should be, where as your recent posts on Mundavani also came out of same atmosphere but this time I praise that these were not fact less. But always bear in mind we should not look down to others who do not hold the same view as ours. This is a hardcore truth that Mundavani is the seal of Gurbani and anything outside of this is Kachee Baani and can not get the status of Gurbani. At the same time this is also under Guru Sahib's Bhana that there must be a cause for this for some Sikhs to believe differently on Gurmat than what you or I do. A while ago Daas had same emotions as you have about raagmala but Guru Sahib's Karni I had darshan of a writing from a raagmala believer who mentioned a Saakhi about Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh which may be very little known to Panth and not many of forum readers might know of this either. That Saakhi showed this daas how mere the presence of Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh concluded Sri Akhand Paath Sahib in a Panthic gathering at Mundavani when Paathi Singh stopped and asked "SHOULD I READ raagmala".

Anyway the point is if one happens to be sitting in Mandal of where there is possibility of reading of kachee baani then one should not get up and leave instead say Gurfateh after Mundavani and Bhog will be right there. Reading of kachee Baani will go to the Karam ledger of reader not listener.

With Regards,
Jasjit Singh

Bhai Sahib,

Hearing the experiences of people like Master Ji it becomes clear that although Singhs from AKJ and DDT had different views there was always a lot of prem between the groups. Master Ji once mentioned how they would regularly go to DDT programs to do kirtan. Similarly, we know Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji called Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh Ji a Sant.

I am not offended at the idea of people questioning Raagmala. Both those who do and don't believe in 'Raagmala hold their beliefs out of a positive bhavna for Gurbani and Guru Sahib. Yet when someone takes an unprovoked cheap shot at those who believe in Raagmala online it just doesn't sit well. Like I said I have no problem with someone saying Raagmala is not Bani as long as the bhavna is right but like you pointed out to call great Gursikhs like Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji and Bhai Sahib Veer Singh Ji (who despite Sukhdeep Singh's assertion did believe in Raagmala) diseased is something that can only cause pain to the hearts of any Gursikh who puts the Panth first.

I think we can all agree that there are lots of issues out there that we can work together to resolve and Raagmala is not likely to be one of them - so why not use this great forum as a means to accomplish those things - I personally love some of Gurmat based discussions on here and have learned a lot as a result.

If I have said anything wrong please do Ardaas that Guru Sahib lead me the right way,

Tarun Singh

It is perfectly fine if one does not believe in Raag Maala but to demean it is a whole different thing. Missionaries use vulgar language for Dasam Granth Sahib with no regard to other people’s beliefs. Anti-Raag Maala Sikhs using same methods against Raag Maala are stooping down to the same low level. If Raag Maala being only one Ang long upsets somebody and leads them under the influence of five vices even after listening to previous Gurbani while being in the presence of Guru Sahib then I would have to say that those Sikhs are kachay. Perhaps their own mentality does not let them enjoy the bliss. However, I have yet to see a person fall in five vices just because of listening to or believing in Raag Maala. Surely, Sant Shaam Singh, Sant Harnaam Singh, Sant Jarnail Singh etc. were high caliber gursikhs. And as long as we are expressing our beliefs: Raag Maala is Sachi Gurbani.

By the way, I don't read Raagmala myself nor do I consider it to be Bani. So that is not the reason I was so offended by Sukhdeep Singh's Poems. What Tarun Singh has said perfectly sums up what I think.

Everyone should watch the following video from 18 minutes
[www.youtube.com]

The poems about AKahnd Path Sahib was not for the purpose of offending or hurting Raag Mala believers. Most Sundays I go to the GUrdwara to listen to AKhand Paath, and I simply shared the experience on that particular Sunday. I wrote the poem shortly after arrving from the GUrdwara it was not some type of scheme to boil the blood of others. The second poem Mundavani was based on my experiences later on in the day. I kept thinking about how beautiful Mundavani is. Even while taking a shower in the evening I kept singing Mundavani verses over and over. I felt like the damage done was being recovered through these wonderful Gurbani verses. Because others were offended by the poems I will try to narrarate my experience in a more polite and sensitive manner.

In the past as Bhai Jasjit SIngh Ji mentioned, I would just sit down and say fateh after Mundavani. My logic was If I get up I will offend other GUrsikhs and since Sri GUru Ji exist in his Gursikhs its best not to offend them. DUring these times I would just recite GUrmantar internally, but if a Gursikh was not around I would get up and leave rite after Mundavani.

This particular week there were quite a few Gursikhs around me . To me the word Warm/Warmth is one of the best words in explaining the blessing of GUru Ji. WHenever I listen to Akhand Paaths I feel like a little child in the laps of my divine father. I feel like Sri GUru JI is putting his warm arms around my shoulders as I listen to an Akhand Paath. A plant cant grow without warmth ( photosynthesis) likewise the inner flower inside cannot bloom inside a Gursikh without GUru jis warmth.

When listening to Mundavani I was really feelings lots of ANand and warmth. THen raag mala apporached. During this recitation I thought to myself why dont you try to listen to the words of Raag Mala in the company of other Gursikhs perhaps you might gain some greater insight. Because Guru Ji says sadh sangat is a school I thought yes I will listen this one time. As I was listening with an unbiased mind I was trying to do seva of GUru Jis charan kamal , but this was difficult to do. I felt like the bodies warmth was being overshadowed with darkness. The inner seed of naam cannot grow in darkness. I felt like the life was being sucked out of me. Again no offense. Im using polite langauge and words of love to express my feelings without using offensive langauge to raag mala. This is just the experience of one person. If people are offended or feel like the experience is cheap then fair enough. My experience it was it is I cant change it or alter it to make people feel happy. I had experienced many other negative feelings while listening to Raag Mala, but I kept silence about these experiences . Had I shared these other feelings then the Raag Mala lovers would have been outraged.

1000 times I am thankful for Guru Ji for teaching me the purpose of attending AKhand Paaths. To me going to AKhand Patth is the perfrom Guru Jis seva. I hope GUru Ji always keeps me close to Gurbani. I hope I can only listen to Gurbani. I hope I no longer follow the half baked principle of sitting in order not to offend others. My main goal is to please Guru JI. Yes, Guru Ji resides in his GUrsikhs, but If a Gursikh is propagating something which does not support Gurmat and makes a mockery of Gurmat then I cannot support such things.

WHen I wrote about my experiences I did not feel the language to be derogatory or perverse. But if some Gursikhs feel like they were then in the future I will pay more attention in such things. I dont have any quarrels with demeaning raag mala, hindu aarti, or meat eating. Yes many Gursikhs indulge themsevles in these things, but wrong is wrong. I guess in the future I will question these practices in a more polite and sensitive language. One thing we need to be clear about is Raag Mala is not accepted at a Panthic level. This means we dont have to agree with it. The same why we dont have to agree with Hindu aarti as this is not accepted as a panthic practice.

Bhai gsingh jio, your video link reminded me a bachan of Baba Jarnail Singh Jee about Akhand Kirtani Jatha which he mentioned once and Singhs noted. He said smilingly,

“ਅਗਰ ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਕੀਰਤਨ ਸੁਨਣ ਦੀ ਕਰਨ ਦੀ ਜਾਂਚ ਸਿੱਖਣੀ ਹੈ ਤਾਂ ਅਖੰਡ ਕੀਰਤਨੀਆਂ ਤੋਂ ਸਿਖੋ ਕਿਵੇਂ ਸਾਰੀ ਸਾਰੀ ਰਾਤ ਰੈਣ ਸਬਾਈਆਂ ਵਿਚ ਬੈਠਦੇ ਹਨ। ਵੱਡੇ ਵਡੇਰੇ ਤਾਂ ਕੀ ਬੱਚੇ ਵੀ ਇੰਜ ਸਾਰੀ ਰਾਤ ਬੈਠੇ ਰਹਿੰਦੇ ਹਨ ਜਿਵੇਂ ਦਰੀਆਂ ਨੂੰ ਗੂੰਦ ਲੱਗਾ ਹੋਵੇ”
I think these are beautiful bachans of Baba Jarnail Singh Jee not only because Daas favors Jatha but because even he had some different opinion with Jatha on some points but still he could not stop himself to praise the Jatha. I would say where as this is true that there is always be a difference among others that how someone follows Gurmat or not but we should always strive for Gunna di Saanjh. As long as person having opposing views forward his hand to stick together and stay together then we should not leave that opportunity.

With Regards,
Jasjit Singh

Quote
gsingh
By the way, I don't read Raagmala myself nor do I consider it to be Bani. So that is not the reason I was so offended by Sukhdeep Singh's Poems. What Tarun Singh has said perfectly sums up what I think.

Everyone should watch the following video from 18 minutes
[www.youtube.com]

just want to clarify are you qouting tarun singh, or is that what your opinion/belief is?

bhai Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > By the way, I don't read Raagmala myself nor do
> I consider it to be Bani. So that is not the
> reason I was so offended by Sukhdeep Singh's
> Poems. What Tarun Singh has said perfectly sums up
> what I think.
>
> Everyone should watch the following video from 18
> minutes
>
>
>
> just want to clarify are you qouting tarun singh,
> or is that what your opinion/belief is?

Bhai Jee

It is my own personal belief.

JASJIT SINGH Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Bhai gsingh jio, your video link reminded me a
> bachan of Baba Jarnail Singh Jee about Akhand
> Kirtani Jatha which he mentioned once and Singhs
> noted. He said smilingly,
>
> “ਅਗਰ ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਕੀਰਤਨ
> ਸੁਨਣ ਦੀ ਕਰਨ ਦੀ ਜਾਂਚ
> ਸਿੱਖਣੀ ਹੈ ਤਾਂ ਅਖੰਡ
> ਕੀਰਤਨੀਆਂ ਤੋਂ ਸਿਖੋ
> ਕਿਵੇਂ ਸਾਰੀ ਸਾਰੀ
> ਰਾਤ ਰੈਣ ਸਬਾਈਆਂ ਵਿਚ
> ਬੈਠਦੇ ਹਨ। ਵੱਡੇ
> ਵਡੇਰੇ ਤਾਂ ਕੀ ਬੱਚੇ
> ਵੀ ਇੰਜ ਸਾਰੀ ਰਾਤ
> ਬੈਠੇ ਰਹਿੰਦੇ ਹਨ
> ਜਿਵੇਂ ਦਰੀਆਂ ਨੂੰ
> ਗੂੰਦ ਲੱਗਾ ਹੋਵੇ”
> I think these are beautiful bachans of Baba
> Jarnail Singh Jee not only because Daas favors
> Jatha but because even he had some different
> opinion with Jatha on some points but still he
> could not stop himself to praise the Jatha. I
> would say where as this is true that there is
> always be a difference among others that how
> someone follows Gurmat or not but we should always
> strive for Gunna di Saanjh. As long as person
> having opposing views forward his hand to stick
> together and stay together then we should not
> leave that opportunity.
>
> With Regards,
> Jasjit Singh

Beautiful post Bhai Jasjit Singh Jee. Such Bachans of Sant Jee are a sign of a True Gurmukh Sant. Having Prem for all Gursikhs despite minor differences.

Quote
Gsingh
It is my own belief

I just want to make sure that im not misreading what you rote, so i am going to ask again,

Gsingh, do you consider raagmala to be sachi bani? Yes or no

Do You(gsingh) consider raagmala to be kachi bani? Yes or no

Just answer yes or no to each question by copying and pasting the questions i asked you, in ur response and then write yes or no beside each question

Thanks

Bhai jee why are you grilling gsingh like this? It seems like a scare tactic.

Kulbir Singh

Subhaan! Subhaan!

Kulbir Singh

Quote
Kulbir singh
Bhai jee why are you grilling gsingh like this? It seems like a scare tactic.

Kulbir Singh

Lol
No im not trying to scare him, just wanted to double nd triple check that someone hasnt hacked his account r smthing bcuz from wat i noe he is hardcore taksali


So gsingh answer my questions........

Bhai Jee

"Gsingh, do you consider raagmala to be sachi bani?" NO!

"Do You(gsingh) consider raagmala to be kachi bani?" YES!

I DO NOT believe Raagmala which starts on Ang 1429 with ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ਰਾਗ ਮਾਲਾ ॥ ਰਾਗ ਏਕ ਸੰਗਿ ਪੰਚ ਬਰੰਗਨ ॥ To be the recited of any of the Guru Sahiban, hence it is not Gurbani. I believe it to be Kachi Bani which was added in later.

I hope that is clear enough for you.

"Nimana" Jee,

You have beautifully captured my thoughts exactly. Raagmala is an issue best left undisturbed.


Kulbir Singh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Bhai jee why are you grilling gsingh like this? It
> seems like a scare tactic.
>
> Kulbir Singh

Bhai Sahib Jee, who can scare me when Guru Sahib has done their Kirpa.

ਸੁਪਨੇ ਵਿਚ ਆਈ ਆਵਾਜ਼:
ਪੰਜਾਂ ਪਿਆਰਿਆਂ ਤੋਂ ਮੰਗ ਜਾ ਕੇ ਨਾਮ ਤੂੰ
ਕੇਸਕੀ ਹੈ ਕਕਾਰ, ਇਹ ਮੰਨ ਲੈ ਤੂੰ
ਰਾਗਮਾਲਾ ਬਾਣੀ ਨਹੀ ਮੇਰੀ, ਇਹ ਮੰਨ ਲੈ ਤੂੰ
ਸਵਾਸਾਂ ਨਾਲ ਨਾਮ ਜਾਪਿਆ ਕਰ ਤੂੰ
ਮੇਰੇ ਪਿਆਰੇ ਬਚੇ, ਪੰਜਾਂ ਪਿਆਰਿਆਂ ਤੋਂ ਮੰਗ ਜਾ ਕੇ ਨਾਮ ਤੂੰ

Quote
gsingh
Bhai Jee

"Gsingh, do you consider raagmala to be sachi bani?" NO!

"Do You(gsingh) consider raagmala to be kachi bani?" YES!

I DO NOT believe Raagmala which starts on Ang 1429 with ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ਰਾਗ ਮਾਲਾ ॥ ਰਾਗ ਏਕ ਸੰਗਿ ਪੰਚ ਬਰੰਗਨ ॥ To be the recited of any of the Guru Sahiban, hence it is not Gurbani. I believe it to be Kachi Bani which was added in later.

I hope that is clear enough for you.

well welcome to the akj jatha then......

Oye Sukhdeep Singh, You talk about Pankthik Ekta, and even quote Mahapurkhs of various Jathebandis, such as Sant Harnaam Singh ji Raampur Kherraa Waaley, yet you are touching,on senseless, needless and time wasting so-called "issues"???

bhai Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > Bhai Jee
>
> "Gsingh, do you consider raagmala to be sachi
> bani?" NO!
>
> "Do You(gsingh) consider raagmala to be kachi
> bani?" YES!
>
> I DO NOT believe Raagmala which starts on Ang 1429
> with ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ
> ਰਾਗ ਮਾਲਾ ॥ ਰਾਗ ਏਕ
> ਸੰਗਿ ਪੰਚ ਬਰੰਗਨ ॥ To be
> the recited of any of the Guru Sahiban, hence it
> is not Gurbani. I believe it to be Kachi Bani
> which was added in later.
>
> I hope that is clear enough for you.
>
>
> well welcome to the akj jatha then......


Are you from the Jatha yourself Bhai Jee?

no i took amrit from akj smagam last year in england, but im more associated with BK because my grandpa in england is part of thier jatha, so yeah

bhai Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> well welcome to the akj jatha then......

It would be more Chardi Kala when Singh's will start saying, "Well, Welcome to the Khalsa Panth then...."

Guru Jees had put endless effort to bring 4 Varans into 1 Sangat and 1 Pangat.
If not us, then I wonder who will bring all Jathas together

Let's leave all these topics behind and do simran of
ਜਪਹੁ ਤ ਏਕੋ ਨਾਮਾ ॥
ਅਵਰਿ ਨਿਰਾਫਲ ਕਾਮਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

Bhul Chuk Maaf.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa,
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh.