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Why would Ram need a Guru ?

Posted by harinder_singh 
According to Hindu Matt, Vishnu, Brahma and Shiv and Supreme Gods. Ram was incarnation of Vishnu in Treta Yug. It is mentioned in Gurbani that Rishi Vashist was his Guru and through the grace of Satguru, he gave updesh to Ram.

[www.srigranth.org]

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਬਸਿਸਟਿ ਹਰਿ ਉਪਦੇਸੁ ਸੁਣਾਈ ॥ As Gurmukh, Vashisht taught the Teachings of the Lord


But the thing I am unable to understand is that why would a Vishnu Avatar need a Guru according to hindu matt who consider vishnu as supreme deity.
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Bhai Harinder singh ji

Where does this line says that Vashisht gave updesh to
King Rama. It only mentions vashisht as a Gurmukh.
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[en.wikipedia.org]

Quote

Sage Vashista was Ram's guru and the Rajpurohit of Ikshwaku dynasty

It is a well known fact that Rishi Vashist was Ram's Guru.
The question I am asking is that why would Vishnu (who is considered supreme in Hindu Matt) will need a Guru. Did Krishan have a Guru ? I dont think so.
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Did Krishan have a Guru ? I dont think so.

Siri Krishna had a guru by the name of Maharishi Sandeepani. This is the Guru-kul (school) where Siri Krishna met Sudhama, his school buddy.

It should be noted that neither Rama nor Siri Krishna had Pooran Guru.

Kulbir Singh
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ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਬਸਿਸਟਿ ਹਰਿ ਉਪਦੇਸੁ ਸੁਣਾਈ ॥ As Gurmukh, Vashisht taught the Teachings of the Lord

Vishishta was not a Gurmukh nor the above Pankiti is calling him a Gurmukh. The word Gurmukh here means 'through Gurmat". The meaning of the Pankiti is that through Gurmat (Guru-Jyoti), Vashishta gave religious or divine teachings to Rama (or his other disciples).

The Guru-Jyoti was not absent or non-existent before the advent of Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee. From the beginning the Guru-Jyoti which is the Guru-form of Vaheguru Himself, was active but working behind the scenes. It was ordained that the full deliverance of the world would occur only when the Guru-jyoti arrives in Kaljug. Before this time, the Guru-Jyoti worked through different Sages and Avtaars to bring spirituality in this world and eradicate evil.

Kulbir Singh
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In the shabad there are two others namely Prahlad and cited as Gurmukhs. Third person is vashisht

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਪ੍ਰਹਿਲਾਦਿ ਜਪਿ ਹਰਿ ਗਤਿ ਪਾਈ ॥
गुरमुखि प्रहिलादि जपि हरि गति पाई ॥
Gurmukẖ par▫hilāḏ jap har gaṯ pā▫ī.
As Gurmukh, Prahlaad meditated on the Lord, and was saved.
ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਜਨਕਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮਿ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਈ ॥
गुरमुखि जनकि हरि नामि लिव लाई ॥
Gurmukẖ janak har nām liv lā▫ī.
As Gurmukh, Janak lovingly centered his consciousness on the Lord's Name.

In SGGS ji there are other shabads acknowledging these persons as Gurmukhs.

unquote

For example


ਧ੍ਰੂ ਪ੍ਰਹਿਲਾਦੁ ਬਿਦਰੁ ਦਾਸੀ ਸੁਤੁ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਮਿ ਤਰੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ध्रू प्रहिलादु बिदरु दासी सुतु गुरमुखि नामि तरे ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥ Ḏẖarū par▫hilāḏ biḏar ḏāsī suṯ gurmukẖ nām ṯare. ||1|| rahā▫o. Dhroo, Prahlaad and Bidar the slave-girl's son, became Gurmukh, and through the Naam, crossed over. ||1||Pause||

Ang 995
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In the shabad there are two others namely Prahlad and cited as Gurmukhs. Third person is vashisht

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਪ੍ਰਹਿਲਾਦਿ ਜਪਿ ਹਰਿ ਗਤਿ ਪਾਈ ॥
गुरमुखि प्रहिलादि जपि हरि गति पाई ॥
Gurmukẖ par▫hilāḏ jap har gaṯ pā▫ī.
As Gurmukh, Prahlaad meditated on the Lord, and was saved.
ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਜਨਕਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮਿ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਈ ॥
गुरमुखि जनकि हरि नामि लिव लाई ॥
Gurmukẖ janak har nām liv lā▫ī.
As Gurmukh, Janak lovingly centered his consciousness on the Lord's Name.

The English translation is full flawed. The word Gurmukh has many meanings in Gurbani as per Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh jee, and other scholars:

1. Gurmukh - Mukhi Guru - Vaheguru.
2. Gurmukh - Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee - Gurmukh Kal vich Pargat hoya.
3. Gurmukh - Gursikh - whose mukh (face) is towards Guru Sahib.
4. Gurmukh - Gurmat - through Guru, through the mukh of Guru.

Here, the meanings are through Guru or through the power of Guru. The first Pankiti tells us that eventually, Bhagat Prahlaad realized Vaheguru through Gurmukh i.e. through Gurmat. Raja Janak too realized got eternal concentration in Har Naam, through Gurmukh i.e. through Gurmat.

All the previous Bhagats and sages who got full salvation, had to take Janam in the house of Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee. Many Sikhs of Guru Sahib were great sages, prophets and Bhagats of previous Yugas and were awaiting the advent of the True Guru in this world to get salvation (Tatt-Gurmat-Udhaar). Prior to taking birth in the house of Guru Sahib, these great Bhagats were in Khands lower than Sachkhand, e.g. Gyaan Khand, Sharam Khand and Karam Khand. Only through the True Guru - Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee - one can get to Sachkhand.

Look at the wonderful Pankiti you quoted, Bhai Inder Singh jeeo:

ਧ੍ਰੂ ਪ੍ਰਹਿਲਾਦੁ ਬਿਦਰੁ ਦਾਸੀ ਸੁਤੁ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਮਿ ਤਰੇ ॥੧॥

In this Pankiti Guru Sahib is not calling Bidar jee and Dhru jee a Gurmukh but is saying that both of these Bhagats swam across through Gurmukh Naam (i.e. Naam Mantr of Guru Sahib's house).

Everyone knows that Bhagat Dhru jee, and the Daasi-sut (son of a maid) Bidar jee were worshippers of Vishnu and Siri Krishna respectively but here Guru Sahib is clearly saying that both Dhru jee and Bidar jee swam across this world, through Gurmukh-Naam. Whenever the word Gurmukh-Naam appears together, it always means the Naam Mantra of Guru Sahib's house (as per Bhai Sahib jee). So the only way they could have received Gurmukh Naam is if they had taken birth in the house of Guru Sahib. When this happened and where it happened is not important and we don't know but Gurbani has told us that by the time of Siri Guru Raamdaas jee, they had taken birth and also swam across this world to Sachkhand. We ought to have faith in Gurbani Furmaans and believe them, even if we don't have full information.

Gurbani is Agam Agaadh Bodh.

Kulbir Singh
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Bhai Kulbir singh ji

Gurbani defines a Gurmukh and says that a shabad or God realized person is Gurmukh.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸਬਦਿ ਰੰਗਾਵਲੇ ਅਹਿਨਿਸਿ ਹਰਿ ਰਸੁ ਭੋਗੁ ॥੩॥ गुरमुखि सबदि रंगावले अहिनिसि हरि रसु भोगु ॥३॥ Gurmukẖ sabaḏ rangāvle ahinis har ras bẖog. ||3|| The Gurmukhs are attuned to the Word of the Shabad. Day and night, they enjoy the Sublime Essence of the Lord. ||3||

ang 95

The full shabad on ang 995 is quoted below.


ਮਾਰੂ ਮਹਲਾ ੪ ਘਰੁ ੨ मारू महला ४ घरु २ Mārū mėhlā 4 gẖar 2 Maaroo, Fourth Mehl, Second House:
ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥ ੴ सतिगुर प्रसादि ॥ Ik▫oaʼnkār saṯgur parsāḏ. One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:
ਜਪਿਓ ਨਾਮੁ ਸੁਕ ਜਨਕ ਗੁਰ ਬਚਨੀ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਸਰਣਿ ਪਰੇ ॥ जपिओ नामु सुक जनक गुर बचनी हरि हरि सरणि परे ॥ Japi▫o nām suk janak gur bacẖnī har har saraṇ pare. Suk-deva and Janak meditated on the Naam; following the Guru's Teachings, they sought the Sanctuary of the Lord, Har, Har.

ਦਾਲਦੁ ਭੰਜਿ ਸੁਦਾਮੇ ਮਿਲਿਓ ਭਗਤੀ ਭਾਇ ਤਰੇ ॥ दालदु भंजि सुदामे मिलिओ भगती भाइ तरे ॥ Ḏālaḏ bẖanj suḏāme mili▫o bẖagṯī bẖā▫e ṯare. God met Sudama and removed his poverty; through loving devotional worship, he crossed over.

ਭਗਤਿ ਵਛਲੁ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਕ੍ਰਿਤਾਰਥੁ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਕਰੇ ॥੧॥ भगति वछलु हरि नामु क्रितारथु गुरमुखि क्रिपा करे ॥१॥ Bẖagaṯ vacẖẖal har nām kirṯārath gurmukẖ kirpā kare. ||1|| God is the Lover of His devotees; the Lord's Name is fulfilling; God showers His Mercy on the Gurmukhs. ||1||

ਮੇਰੇ ਮਨ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਤ ਉਧਰੇ ॥ मेरे मन नामु जपत उधरे ॥ Mere man nām japaṯ uḏẖre. O my mind, chanting the Naam, the Name of the Lord, you will be saved.

ਧ੍ਰੂ ਪ੍ਰਹਿਲਾਦੁ ਬਿਦਰੁ ਦਾਸੀ ਸੁਤੁ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਮਿ ਤਰੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ध्रू प्रहिलादु बिदरु दासी सुतु गुरमुखि नामि तरे ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥ Ḏẖarū par▫hilāḏ biḏar ḏāsī suṯ gurmukẖ nām ṯare. ||1|| rahā▫o. Dhroo, Prahlaad and Bidar the slave-girl's son, became Gurmukh, and through the Naam, crossed over. ||1||Pause||

ਕਲਜੁਗਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਪ੍ਰਧਾਨੁ ਪਦਾਰਥੁ ਭਗਤ ਜਨਾ ਉਧਰੇ ॥ कलजुगि नामु प्रधानु पदारथु भगत जना उधरे ॥ Kaljug nām parḏẖān paḏārath bẖagaṯ janā uḏẖre. In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, the Naam is the supreme wealth; it saves the humble devotees.

ਨਾਮਾ ਜੈਦੇਉ ਕਬੀਰੁ ਤ੍ਰਿਲੋਚਨੁ ਸਭਿ ਦੋਖ ਗਏ ਚਮਰੇ ॥ नामा जैदेउ कबीरु त्रिलोचनु सभि दोख गए चमरे ॥ Nāmā jaiḏe▫o Kabīr Ŧrilocẖan sabẖ ḏokẖ ga▫e cẖamre. All the faults of Naam Dayv, Jai Dayv, Kabeer, Trilochan and Ravi Daas the leather-worker were covered.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਮਿ ਲਗੇ ਸੇ ਉਧਰੇ ਸਭਿ ਕਿਲਬਿਖ ਪਾਪ ਟਰੇ ॥੨॥ गुरमुखि नामि लगे से उधरे सभि किलबिख पाप टरे ॥२॥ Gurmukẖ nām lage se uḏẖre sabẖ kilbikẖ pāp tare. ||2|| Those who become Gurmukh, and remain attached to the Naam, are saved; all their sins are washed off. ||2||

ਜੋ ਜੋ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪੈ ਅਪਰਾਧੀ ਸਭਿ ਤਿਨ ਕੇ ਦੋਖ ਪਰਹਰੇ ॥ जो जो नामु जपै अपराधी सभि तिन के दोख परहरे ॥ Jo jo nām japai aprāḏẖī sabẖ ṯin ke ḏokẖ parhare. Whoever chants the Naam, all his sins and mistakes are taken away.

ਬੇਸੁਆ ਰਵਤ ਅਜਾਮਲੁ ਉਧਰਿਓ ਮੁਖਿ ਬੋਲੈ ਨਾਰਾਇਣੁ ਨਰਹਰੇ ॥ बेसुआ रवत अजामलु उधरिओ मुखि बोलै नाराइणु नरहरे ॥ Besu▫ā ravaṯ ajāmal uḏẖāri▫o mukẖ bolai nārā▫iṇ narhare. Ajaamal, who had sex with prostitutes, was saved, by chanting the Name of the Lord.

ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਤ ਉਗ੍ਰਸੈਣਿ ਗਤਿ ਪਾਈ ਤੋੜਿ ਬੰਧਨ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਕਰੇ ॥੩॥ नामु जपत उग्रसैणि गति पाई तोड़ि बंधन मुकति करे ॥३॥ Nām japaṯ ugarsaiṇ gaṯ pā▫ī ṯoṛ banḏẖan mukaṯ kare. ||3|| Chanting the Naam, Ugar Sain obtained salvation; his bonds were broken, and he was liberated. ||3||

ਜਨ ਕਉ ਆਪਿ ਅਨੁਗ੍ਰਹੁ ਕੀਆ ਹਰਿ ਅੰਗੀਕਾਰੁ ਕਰੇ ॥ जन कउ आपि अनुग्रहु कीआ हरि अंगीकारु करे ॥ Jan ka▫o āp anūgrahu kī▫ā har angīkār kare. God Himself takes pity on His humble servants, and makes them His own.

ਸੇਵਕ ਪੈਜ ਰਖੈ ਮੇਰਾ ਗੋਵਿਦੁ ਸਰਣਿ ਪਰੇ ਉਧਰੇ ॥ सेवक पैज रखै मेरा गोविदु सरणि परे उधरे ॥ Sevak paij rakẖai merā goviḏ saraṇ pare uḏẖre. My Lord of the Universe saves the honor of His servants; those who seek His Sanctuary are saved.

ਜਨ ਨਾਨਕ ਹਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਧਾਰੀ ਉਰ ਧਰਿਓ ਨਾਮੁ ਹਰੇ ॥੪॥੧॥ जन नानक हरि किरपा धारी उर धरिओ नामु हरे ॥४॥१॥ Jan Nānak har kirpā ḏẖārī ur ḏẖari▫o nām hare. ||4||1|| The Lord has showered servant Nanak with His Mercy; he has enshrined the Lord's Name within his heart. ||4||1||

Ang 995

Then on same ang and in next shabad Guru sahib writes


ਧੰਨਾ ਜਟੁ ਬਾਲਮੀਕੁ ਬਟਵਾਰਾ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਪਾਰਿ ਪਇਆ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ धंना जटु बालमीकु बटवारा गुरमुखि पारि पइआ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥ Ḏẖannā jat bālmīk batvārā gurmukẖ pār pa▫i▫ā. ||1|| rahā▫o. Dhanna the farmer, and Balmik the highway robber, became Gurmukh, and crossed over. ||1||Pause||

ang 995

The shabdas clearly state that the persons stated therein realized God by meditating on Naam and hence were
Gurmukhs. Now we have bani of some of them in SGGS ji. Guru sahib had included only that bani of bhagats in SGGS ji that was in line with their thought.
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