Meaning of this pankiti - ਤੂ ਤਾ ਜਨਿਕ ਰਾਜਾ ਅਉਤਾਰੁ...

[www.srigranth.org]

ਤੂ ਤਾ ਜਨਿਕ ਰਾਜਾ ਅਉਤਾਰੁ ਸਬਦੁ ਸੰਸਾਰਿ ਸਾਰੁ ਰਹਹਿ ਜਗਤ੍ਰ ਜਲ ਪਦਮ ਬੀਚਾਰ ॥
तू ता जनिक राजा अउतारु सबदु संसारि सारु रहहि जगत्र जल पदम बीचार ॥
You are the incarnation of King Janak; the contemplation of Your Shabad is sublime throughout the universe. You abide in the world like the lotus on

Whats the meaning.Was Guru Angad Dev Jee incarnation of King Janak ?

Very interesting Pankiti. Raja Janak is considered to be a great king of ancient times who was a very Dharmi king. His guru was the legendary sage Ashtavakra who was only a child when he gave Updesh to Raja Janak. Ashtavakra was a born genius who according to a legend corrected his father in translating Vedas, while he was still in the womb of his mother. His Updesh is recorded in Ashtavakra Geeta, which is one of the classic books of Advaita Vedanta. His authority and understanding of the subject matter is remarkable. Even though, as far as Gurmat is concerned, Advaita Vedanta does not find too much spiritual merit, but it is a very good and intricate mental philosophy like it's senior cousin Buddhism. It's a treat and a challenge to the mind to read it. It's like a candy to the mind that likes complex thoughts (Mushkil-Pasand mind).

When we look at this Pankiti, the first impression we get is that Siri Guru Angad Dev jee was the Avtaar of Raja Janak. Some of the old Sikh literature written by ignorant or Brahman-influenced Sikhs have also echoed similar thoughts. Sometimes they call Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee an Avtaar of Raja Janak and at other times, Siri Guru Angad Dev jee but nothing is further from truth. According to Gurbani calling Siri Guru jee avtaar of Raja Janak is not praising Guru Sahib but reducing His praise because even the Sant Gursikhs of Guru Sahib are superior to Raja Janak and his likes:

ਹਰਿ ਕੇ ਸੰਤ ਜਨਾ ਮਹਿ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਤੇ ਜਨ ਊਤਮ ਜਨਕ ਜਨਾਕ ॥
(Within the Sants (Gursikhs) of Hari, there is Har Har Gurmat Naam and for this reason, they are superior to Janak and likes of Janak).

If even Sikhs of Guru Sahib are superior to Raja Janak, then Guru Sahib cannot be his Avtaar.

What is the meaning of Janak according to Gurbani?

Well, this is explained in a Pankiti of Gurbani as follows:

ਜਨਕੁ ਸੋਇ ਜਿਨਿ ਜਾਣਿਆ ਉਨਮਨਿ ਰਥੁ ਧਰਿਆ ॥
(So is Janak who has known Vaheguru through Unman Samadhi involving Gurmat Naam).

So Janak is such a personality who knows Vaheguru and who can know Vaheguru more than Vaheguru jee's own Guru form - Satguru?

Now coming back to the Pankiti in discussion:

ਤੂ ਤਾ ਜਨਿਕ ਰਾਜਾ ਅਉਤਾਰੁ ਸਬਦੁ ਸੰਸਾਰਿ ਸਾਰੁ ਰਹਹਿ ਜਗਤ੍ਰ ਜਲ ਪਦਮ ਬੀਚਾਰ ॥
(O Siri Guru Angad Dev jee, your Avtaar is i.e. you are such king who is Janak i.e. fully knowledgeable about Vaheguru and of supreme position of Raj Jog). The word Janak is an adjective of the noun Raja here not the other way round i.e. Raja being the adjective and Janak being the noun.

In Bhai Sahib jee's own words:

(ਹੇ ਗੁਰੂ ਅੰਗਦ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਜੀਓ) ਤੂੰ ਤਾਂ ਰਾਜੁ ਜੋਗੁ (ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਰਾਜੁ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਜੋਗੁ) ਦੀ ਪਰਮ ਪਰਮਾਰਥ ਪ੍ਰਮ ਆਤਮੀ (ਰੂਹਾਨੀ) ਬਿਸਮ ਪਰਬੀਨਤਾ ਵਾਲਾ ਰਾਜਾ (ਰਾਜਾਨ ਰਾਜ) ਸੱਚਾ ਪਾਤਸ਼ਾਹ ਹੈਂ। ...ਇਸ ਪਦ ਦਾ ਅਰਥ 'ਜਨਕੁ' ਨਾਮ ਦੇ ਅਰਥਾਂ ਵਾਲਾ 'ਜਨਕ' ਨਾਮੀ ਰਾਜਾ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੋ ਸਕਦਾ। ਇਹ ਪਦ ਪਿਛਲਾ ਅਖਰ ਮੁਕਤਾ ਹੋਣ ਕਰਕੇ ਰਾਜ ਪਦ ਨਾਂਵ ਦਾ ਸਿਫਤੀਆ ਵਿਸ਼ੇਸ਼ਣ ਹੀ ਹੈ।

When doing Gurbani Vichaar and interpretation, while Gurbani Viyakaran should be kept in mind, at the same time, the meaning of the Gurbani Pankiti should not be undermining Gurmat principles or glory of Guru Sahib. By calling Guru Sahib Avtaar of Raja Janak does not bring glory to Guru Sahib rather it is slandering Guru Sahib because even Gursikhs are superior to Raja Janak, then what to talk about status of Guru Sahib.

Gurbani is Agam Agaadh Bodh.

Kulbir Singh

Many Thanks for clearing that up. It's the first I've heard of such thoughts of Raja Janak being Guroo Sahib jeeo

Sree Guru Sahib jee is the Akaali jot of Vaheguroo. Being a previous incarnation is impossible.

Beautifully written and explained Kulbir Singh Jeeo, cleared any doubts.

Vaheguru Jee Ka Khalsa, Vaheguru Jee Kee Fathe.

Firstly, I want to start by saying, I am not here to argue or attack anyone’s viewpoints, however, I disagreed with some of the above points and therefore felt that I had to post on here.

Quote
According to Gurbani calling Siri Guru jee avtaar of Raja Janak is not praising Guru Sahib but reducing His praise because even the Sant Gursikhs of Guru Sahib are superior to Raja Janak and his likes:

Quote
even Sikhs of Guru Sahib are superior to Raja Janak

Quote
it is slandering Guru Sahib because even Gursikhs are superior to Raja Janak

I find this hard to believe. Was Raja Janak not a Saint, as it seems to be what you are saying?

Raja Janak was able to free all those from hell with 1 GhaRi of his bhagthi. How many of us can do that?

Someone with that amount of bhagthi cannot be said to be low, I would chop of my head and place it at the feet of Gurmukhs like him.


The prasang by Bhai Gurdaas Jee is as follows:

ਭਗਤੁ ਵਡਾ ਰਾਜਾ ਜਨਕੁ ਹੈ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਮਾਇਆ ਵਿਚਿ ਉਦਾਸੀ||
King Janak was a great saint who amidst Maya remained indifferent to it.


ਦੇਵ ਲੋਕ ਨੋ ਚਲਿਆ ਗਣ ਗੰਧਰਬ ਸਭਾ ਸੁਖਵਾਸੀ||
Along with gans and gandharvs (celestial musicians) he went to the abode of the Gods.


ਜਮਪੁਰਿਗਇਆ ਪੁਕਾਰ ਸੁਣਿ ਵਿਲਲਾਵਨਿ ਜੀਅਨ ਰਕ ਨਿਵਾਸੀ||
From there, he, hearing the cries of inhabitants of hell, went to them.


ਧਰਮ ਰਾਇ ਨੋ ਆਖਿਓਨੁ ਸਭਨਾ ਦੀ ਕਰਿ ਬੰਦ ਖਲਾਸੀ||
He asked the God of death, Dharamrai, to relieve all their suffering.


ਕਰੇ ਬੇਨਤੀ ਧਰਮਰਾਇ ਹਉ ਸੇਵਕੁ ਠਾਕੁਰੁ ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ॥
Hearing this, the God of death told him he was a mere servant of the eternal Lord (and without His orders he could not liberate them).


ਗਹਿਣੇ ਧਰਿਓਨੁ ਇਕੁ ਨਾਉ ਪਾਪਾ ਨਾਲਿ ਕਰੈ ਨਿਰਜਾਸੀ॥
Janak offered a part of his Devotion and remembrance of the name of the Lord. All the sins of hell were found not equal even to the counterweight of balance


ਪਾਸੰਗਿ ਪਾਪੁ ਨ ਪੁਜਨੀ, ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਉ ਅਤੁਲ, ਨ ਤੁਲਾਸੀ॥
In fact no balance can weigh the fruits of recitation and remembrance of the Lords name by the Gurmukh


ਨਰਕਹੁ ਛੁਟੇ ਜੀਆ ਜੰਤ, ਕਟੀ ਗਲਹੁੰ ਸਿਲਕ ਜਮ ਫਾਸੀ॥
All the creatures got liberated from hell and the noose of death was cut.


ਮੁਕਤਿ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਨਾਵੈ ਦੀ ਦਾਸੀ ॥5॥
Liberation and the technique of attaining it are the servants of the name of the Lord.(5)


Do you believe Bhai Gurdaas Ji was a Gurmukh? If so, then you would not doubt his word. He has clearly stated that Raja Janak was a great saint who was able to separate himself from maya. A saint is one who has conquered maya, and in the first thukh by Bhai Gurdas Ji, he has stated how Raja Janak was able to remain indifferent amongst it.


Only someone with any spiritual authority is able to do such a thing within the afterlife. It is not as if I would be able to go to the next world and command Daramraj to release all them within hell. Whose kamayee would be able to save them from going to hell? Let alone save every single being within hell using only 1 GhaRi!


Bhai Gurdas ji then goes on to say:
'In fact no balance can weigh the fruits of recitation and remembrance of the Lords name by the Gurmukh'


He has blatantly referred to Raja Janak as a Gurmukh and a servant of the Lord. This is what we all long to become! How can you say that even ‘Sikhs’ are superior. I would not call myself superior, do the sangat believe they are superior to Raja Janak and have the capacity to do what he did and receive written praise by Bhai Gurdas Ji?


Also, if you look at Bhai Sahibs words on the thukhs in question, you can see Bhai Sahib has not uttered a word which makes Raja Janak look inferior. Can you find anywhere where Bhai Sahib has said that the ‘Sikhs’ are superior to Raja Janak?

Quote
Sree Guru Sahib jee is the Akaali jot of Vaheguroo. Being a previous incarnation is impossible.

Vista Jee, Guru Gobind Singh Maharaaj did have a previous life as Dusht Daman – even Guru Jee makes that clear, how can you say that being a previous incarnation is impossible?

"EkoNaam" jeeo,

I have not slandered or belittled Raja Janak anywhere. All I mentioned was that Siri Guru Angad Dev jee was not an Avtaar of Raja Janak. All good people including Raja Janak are worthy of our respect but this does not mean that we have to believe that they have taken Avtaar as our Guru Sahibaan. There are no qualms over considering Raja Janak a big Bhagat of his time but the Gurbani Pankiti in question does not promote him to be Guru Angad Dev jee in this life.

Kulbir Singh

Thank you for your reply Kulbir Singh Ji. It did sound and read as if you were making Raja Janak look small. As seen by what I have highlighted, stating that Sikhs are even superior to Raja Janak was quite shocking. Like I said, I would not see myself as superior. Bhai Gurdas Ji calls Raja Janak a Gurmukh. Therefore I salute him.

In respect to the original thukh, you are correct in saying, that Guru Ji has not said that Raja Janak is a previous incarnation of him. Just like Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh Ji wrote in his explanation of the thukhs. However, I just found the way it was gone about being explained could have misled any of the sangat reading to believe that Raja Janak is not praise worthy.

Kulbir Singh Ji, what do you think of what Bhai Gurdas Ji says about Raja Janak? You are calling Raja Janak a 'good person' but you did not go about saying Gurmukh etc..Is that because you personally feel that he was not a Gurmukh? And how come you think that?

This is for my benefit so that I can also be educated on Gurmat, which is why I feel GurmatBibek is alive - to promote healthy debate so that we can all learn. Thank you VeerJi.

Quote

Thank you for your reply Kulbir Singh Ji. It did sound and read as if you were making Raja Janak look small. As seen by what I have highlighted, stating that Sikhs are even superior to Raja Janak was quite shocking. Like I said, I would not see myself as superior. Bhai Gurdas Ji calls Raja Janak a Gurmukh. Therefore I salute him.

Gurbani is saying that Gursikhs are superior to Janak and the likes of Janak:

ਹਰਿ ਕੇ ਸੰਤ ਜਨਾ ਮਹਿ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਤੇ ਜਨ ਊਤਮ ਜਨਕ ਜਨਾਕ ॥
(Within the Sants (Gursikhs) of Hari, there is Har Har Gurmat Naam and for this reason, they are superior to Janak and likes of Janak).

In the light of the above Pankiti, it is clear that Gursikhs who have Har-Har Naam within i.e. the Gurmat Naam within, are superior to Janak and the likes of Janak. How can someone with Kirtam Naam be superior to one with Satnaam? No doubt Simran of even Kirtam Naam is very powerful but it is not more powerful than Simran of Satnam that is received only from Satguru.

Historically, Ashtavakra was the Guru of Raja Janak but he was not Satguru. So Raja Janak being a Sikh of non-Satguru Rishi Ashtavakra cannot be superior to Sikhs of The Satguru - Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee.

Do you believe that only Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee (and His other 9 forms) is Satguru? If no, then please name who else has been Satguru? If there are other Satgurus, then what's the Visheshta (uniqueness or greatness) of Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee? Please answer these questions, and I will answer your other questions.

Kulbir Singh

Kulbir Singh Ji,

Those questions are not needed to be answered. The reason being is because Bhai Gurdas Ji already says Raja Janak was a Gurmukh, regardless of what me or you say on the matter. That point can not be changed, or no argument can be put against Raja Janak to say he is less than the Sikhs of Guru Nanak Dev Ji.

Could one of the readers or writers on this forum save me from going to hell? - I think this is enough to show the greatness of Raja Janak.

I do not wish to get in to a debate about who goes to sachkand etc and about Mukhti only via Guru Nanak. That is not why I wrote. I wrote in order to put across a few questions, I wished for you to be able to answer them for me. If you can do so, I will be greatful.

Thank you Singh Ji.

ਜੇਤੀਸ੍ਰਿਸਟਿਕਰੀਜਗਦੀਸਰਿਤੇਸਭਿਊਚਹਮਨੀਚਬਿਖਿਆਸ ||
The Universe which God created is all above me; I am the lowest, engrossed in corruption.

Quote

Those questions are not needed to be answered. The reason being is because Bhai Gurdas Ji already says Raja Janak was a Gurmukh, regardless of what me or you say on the matter. That point can not be changed, or no argument can be put against Raja Janak to say he is less than the Sikhs of Guru Nanak Dev Ji.

I do Benti that those questions do need to be answered because one word can have many meanings depending on the context. The word Gurmukh has been used in Gurbani at least in 4 meanings and it does not mean "Gursikh" all the time. It means Mukhi-Guru i.e. Vaheguru and it also means through the mouth of Guru or through Guru.

In this Pankiti of Bhai Gurdaas jee, the word "Gurmukh" does not mean Gursikh but it most probably means through Guru or through the power of Guru. In this case the Pankiti would mean that Raja Janak is a big Bhagat and through the power of Guru, he did Udaasi in Maya. Gurbani has already established that Satguru did not become active in 1469 only but was active in the past too but the only difference was that at that time, the Guru-Jyoti was working behind the scenes and in Kaljug it came out in open in form of Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee and our 10 Guru Sahibaan.

I repeat my questions again. If you think that the Guru of Raja Janak was Satguru, please name him. It would be interesting to know that Sikhs can actually believe that anyone other than Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee can be classified as Satguru. Historically, I believe Sukhdeo and Ashtavakra are the only two sages who gave Updesh to Raja Janak and both were not even of the status of Brahmrishi (which were 7 in number), let alone Satguru. Please make it clear as to who else has been Satguru in the past.

Quote

Could one of the readers or writers on this forum save me from going to hell? - I think this is enough to show the greatness of Raja Janak.

The Sikhs of Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee have much more power than saving someone from hell. If Gurmukhs like Baba Buddha jee, Baba Deep Singh jee and Bhai Daya Singh jee wish, they too can empty the hells easier than Raja Janak because Raja Janak was an Abhyaasi of some Kirtam Naam whereas Sikhs of Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee are Abhyaasis of Satnam that is unique to Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee's house.

Now could you kindly answer the questions I asked in this post and the previous post.

Kulbir Singh

Bhai Kulbir Singh jee makes a great point, we cannot rely on the english translations of gurbani, bhai gurdaas jee's vaars, ect. We must analyze these vaars with the scope of gurmat while keeping in mind the relavent gurparmaans from Guru Granth Sahib jee. It has already been established using a gurbani pankti that gursikhs are higher than Raja Janak and others like him, therefore interpreting this vaar to say that raja janak is a gurmukh would not make sense. The interpretation provided by Bhai Kulbir Singh jee seems more fitting.

Preetam Singh

Quote
the word "Gurmukh" does not mean Gursikh but it most probably means through Guru or through the power of Guru.

Kulbir Singh Ji, you have here said yourself ‘most probably’ – so you cannot be 100% sure that is what Bhai Gurdas Ji was meaning. In my view, its clear Bhai Gurdas Ji is saying, he was Gur-Mukh, meaning his much was towards the Guru/God. Gurmat can easily become ManMat - because we all use our own minds and own understading to interpret Gurbani.

And even if like you said it may mean through the Guru (Guru Nanak Dev Sahib Ji) then still that would mean that he was a Gurmukh, as Guru Nanak Sahib Ji gave him all the shakthi to do so much bhagthi and do be able to become detached from maya.

Gurbani tells us that anyone who is beyond the ras of maya, they are completely mukht. Therefore, Raja Janak must have been ‘Gurmukh’. I 100% agree with you that it was through Guru Nanak Dev Ji that Raja Janak got mukthi. I do not mean the physical body of Guru ji, but the nirgun roop, as Vaheguru Himself. As Vaheguru is Guru Nanak Ji, So it is through Vaheguru that Raja Janak was saved. But there is no doubt he was liberated.

Quote
in Kaljug it came out in open in form of Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee and our 10 Guru Sahibaan.

Gurbani clearly tells us that through the ages, many have been saved by Vaheguru.

ਹਰਿਜੁਗੁਜੁਗੁਭਗਤਉਪਾਇਆਪੈਜਰਖਦਾਆਇਆਰਾਮਰਾਜੇ ||

Quote
Gurbani has already established that Satguru did not become active in 1469

Please quote the Gurbani that says this, I am unfortunately not aware of these shabads.

Quote
If Gurmukhs like Baba Buddha jee, Baba Deep Singh jee and Bhai Daya Singh jee wish, they too can empty the hells easier than Raja Janak

Singh Ji, this is not a competition between such Gurmukhs like the above stated. I personally do not even think that Dhan Baba Buddha Ji’s vichaar would have been similar to yours. I do not believe that Baba Ji would have said the things you have said and tried to pursue the belief that Raja Janak was not mukth. Baba Ji would have seen all as Vaheguru.

Quote

Kulbir Singh Ji, you have here said yourself ‘most probably’ – so you cannot be 100% sure that is what Bhai Gurdas Ji was meaning.

Who can be 100% sure about translating Bhai Gurdaas jee's Baani?

Quote

And even if like you said it may mean through the Guru (Guru Nanak Dev Sahib Ji) then still that would mean that he was a Gurmukh, as Guru Nanak Sahib Ji gave him all the shakthi to do so much bhagthi and do be able to become detached from maya.

As stated before, one word can have many meanings. Raja Janak can be Gurmukh in the Gurmat sense only if he received Naam from Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee; otherwise not. If he took birth in Kaljug and became a Sikh of Guru Sahib, then he surely is a Gurmukh; otherwise not.

I asked you before but you have so far been ignoring my questions. According to Gurmat, Gurmukh is such person who is a Sikh of Satguru. If you claim that Raja Janak was a Gurmukh, please inform us who was his Satguru? I already wrote in the last post that his known gurus were Sukhdeo and Ashtavakra, and both of these great Rishis were not even Brahmrishis, let alone Satgurus. So then how can Raja Janak be a Gurmukh?

Just because Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee was behind the good deeds of the Avtaars of the past, does not mean that these Avtaars were Gurmukhs.

Quote

Gurbani tells us that anyone who is beyond the ras of maya, they are completely mukht. Therefore, Raja Janak must have been ‘Gurmukh’. I

Being free from Traigunni Maya does not automatically translate into the topmost destination of Sachkhand. Some people who chant a Kirtam Naam, also can be free of Maya but they don't get to ultimate destination without the Satguru. At most, Raja Janak, if he did not meet the Satguru, may be at the level of Karam Khand which too is above Maya.

Quote

I do not mean the physical body of Guru ji, but the nirgun roop, as Vaheguru Himself. As Vaheguru is Guru Nanak Ji, So it is through Vaheguru that Raja Janak was saved.

It is a Gurmat Asool (principle) that Vaheguru does not meet anyone directly. Only through Satguru one can meet Vaheguru. It does not matter whether the period is post 1469 or pre 1469; still, one has to meet the Satguru (the only one Satguru - Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee). Satnam (True Naam Gurmantr) did not appear in this world before the advent of Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee and through Kirtam Naam, one cannot be fully liberated. So Raja Janak could not have been fully liberated. If you insist that he was liberated, then please let us know who was his Satguru, who liberated him.

Quote

Gurbani clearly tells us that through the ages, many have been saved by Vaheguru.
ਹਰਿਜੁਗੁਜੁਗੁਭਗਤਉਪਾਇਆਪੈਜਰਖਦਾਆਇਆਰਾਮਰਾਜੇ ||

The chanters of Kirtam Naam too were very great and were saved by Vaheguru from time to time but full liberation only occurred through Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee, when they received Satnam. The famous Saakhi of that Yogi from Satjug who went into Samadhi to wait for the arrival of Satguru and who was discovered by Siri Guru Arjun Dev jee, is a proof that in the previous ages, full liberation was not possible. Please read this Saakhi that occurred when the Seva of Santokhsar was done.

Quote

Singh Ji, this is not a competition between such Gurmukhs like the above stated. I personally do not even think that Dhan Baba Buddha Ji’s vichaar would have been similar to yours. I do not believe that Baba Ji would have said the things you have said and tried to pursue the belief that Raja Janak was not mukth. Baba Ji would have seen all as Vaheguru.

This competition was started by you when you asked if any Gursikh could do what Raja Janak did. You write that Baba jee would have seen Vaheguru all but seeing Vaheguru in all does not mean that you start seeing chanters of Kirtam Naam equal to Gursikhs of Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee.

Kulbir Singh

Eko Naam ji,

I think it boils down to your definition of Satguru, If you consider Satguru was present before Dhan Sri Guru Nanak Dev Sahib ji then surely Raja Janak can be a gurmukh in your eyes but thats not true.

SATGUR NANAK PARGATEYA MITTI DHUND JAG CHANAN HOA

There are/were many Bhaghats/Rishis/Believers who give their best shot of Bhaghati but cannot be fully liberated without *Gurmat Naam* which can only be given by Satguru.

Unjaan ji has already given the quote from Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and there are many more.....

Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh!

Eko Naam


ਜੇ ਕੋ ਗੁਰ ਤੇ ਵੇਮੁਖੁ ਹੋਵੈ ਬਿਨੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਨ ਪਾਵੈ ॥
ਪਾਵੈ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਨ ਹੋਰ ਥੈ ਕੋਈ ਪੁਛਹੁ ਬਿਬੇਕੀਆ ਜਾਏ ॥
ਅਨੇਕ ਜੂਨੀ ਭਰਮਿ ਆਵੈ ਵਿਣੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਨ ਪਾਏ ॥
ਫਿਰਿ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਪਾਏ ਲਾਗਿ ਚਰਣੀ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਸਬਦੁ ਸੁਣਾਏ ॥
ਕਹੈ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਵੀਚਾਰਿ ਦੇਖਹੁ ਵਿਣੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਨ ਪਾਏ ॥੨੨ ॥

“If one is detached from the Guru, he cannot find salvation. Nowhere can he find salvation. The men of true wisdom will testify to it. He has to pass through births. Even then without the grace of true Guru, he will not find salvation. In the long run, for salvation’s sake, he will have to come in the True Guru’s shelter, who will tell him the shabad (True Word). Nanak says, you yourself can conclude the fact that the salvation without Guru’s grace is impossible.”

EkoNaam=SatNaam=Gurmantar blessed by Satguru

Your own username echoes what Bhai Sahib Bhai Kulbir Singh ji has written, yet you disagree and fail to understand what he is trying to tell you. I think you need to do a thorough research of difference between Satguru and Jhootha Guru, SatNaam and Kirtam Naam, etc before you write something. Otherwise, you would only end up confusing the masses, now we.don't want do we? Please rethink your post.

Jaspreet Singh

The reason why I did not answer your questions Kulbir Singh Ji are because I know that no one on this forum would agree with my view, and therefore would use my answers against me. Where, the reason I posted was to try to inform others to respect the likes of Raja Janak.

The whole point of a forum is so that everyone can share knowledge, and possibly even learn new things, instead of sticking to one’s own points and not letting go.

Quote
Who can be 100% sure about translating Bhai Gurdaas jee's Baani?

OK then, let us take it as the literal meaning then – So Raja Janak was being called a Gurmukh. If there is any Gurbani that you are unsure on, then the best thing is to take it as literal meaning, if we start using our own limited mat to do vichar, we make many mistakes.

Quote
Raja Janak can be Gurmukh in the Gurmat sense only if he received Naam from Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee; otherwise not.

That is fine then, so how can you prove that Raja Janak never met Guru Nanak Sahib Maharaaj?

Quote
Being free from Traigunni Maya does not automatically translate into the topmost destination of Sachkhand.

Where does it say this in Gurbani? – Where does it say that once you conquer the traigunn maya, you do not go directly to sachkhand? – whereas I can find many times where it directly says, the one who conquers maya is Gurmukh and will go sachkand.

Quote
the level of Karam Khand which too is above Maya.

I cannot find this in Bani as well. According to Gurbani, Karam Khand is not even possible to describe.

Quote
Satnam (True Naam Gurmantr) did not appear in this world before the advent of Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee

Your above point contradicts the following point you made in an earlier post ‘Gurbani has already established that Satguru did not become active in 1469 only but was active in the past too’

Quote
This competition was started by you when you asked if any Gursikh could do what Raja Janak did.

I never said any Gursikh, as I know that for Gursikhs like Baba Buddha Ji and Dhan Baba Deep Singh Ji etc, they could do this. What I said was this; ‘Could one of the readers or writers on this forum save me from going to hell?’

Quote
Baba jee would have seen Vaheguru all but seeing Vaheguru in all does not mean that you start seeing chanters of Kirtam Naam equal to Gursikhs of Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee.

This point osunds confused Singh Ji. As you said that if you see Vaheguru in all you wouldn’t see chanters of kirtam naam same as gursikhs of guru nanak ji. But if you see God everywhere, how can you see the difference in anyone? Therefore Vaheguru must look down upon people? – God is all loving, therefore a Gurmukh also becomes this – This is Very clearly written in Mool mantar.

Kulbir Singh Ji, I am not trying to personally attack you. But please try to use knowledge which you have gained from your own experience. Not knowledge which you have read or studied from other sources, this is where views differ. As Gurbani is there to be practiced and we can only then have true understanding of it once we practice and experience what it says. Try to let go of all these concepts which have been read, and write from your experiences.

Quote
Bhai Sahib Bhai Kulbir Singh ji has written, yet you disagree and fail to understand what he is trying to tell you

Jaspreet Singh Ji, I am only trying to understand and listen to what sathguru sri guru granth sahib tells me and talk from my understanding from experience and what makes simple sense to me. Like I have said, firstly all the concepts which have been read up must be dropped and only experienced ourselves and all points should be critically analysed, not just accepted because it has been said written by a regular/respected poster on this forum.

Quote

I
know that no one on this forum would
agree with my view, and therefore would
use my answers against me.

ਨਡਰੋਂਅਰਿਸੋਜਬਜਾਇਲਰੋਂ
ਨਿਸਚੈਕਰਅਪਨੀਜੀਤਕਰੋਂ||

So answer the questions.

Quote

the level of Karam Khand which too is above Maya.

I cannot find this in Bani as well. According to Gurbani, Karam Khand is not even possible to describe.

jnim mrY qRY gux ihqkwru ]
janam marai thrai gun hithakaar ||
One who loves the three qualities is subject to birth and death.

cwry byd kQih Awkwru ]
chaarae baedh kathhehi aakaar ||
The four Vedas speak only of the visible forms.

qIin AvsQw khih viKAwnu ]
theen avasathhaa kehehi vakhiaan ||
They describe and explain the three states of mind,

qurIAwvsQw siqgur qy hir jwnu ]1]
thureeaavasathhaa sathigur thae har jaan ||1||
but the fourth state, union with the Lord, is known only through the True Guru. ||1||


Gurbani clearly explains that Karam Khand is above Maya. In Japji Sahib, each khand is described; its features, as in the power it has to offer for the one who reaches that level. In Karam khand, as can be seen below, says the devotee who reaches Karam Khand does not experience DEATH whereas in the above shabad it says one who is under the power of the three qualities, hence Maya, experiences death.


krm KMf kI bwxI joru ]
karam kha(n)dd kee baanee jor ||
In the realm of karma, the Word is Power.

iqQY horu n koeI horu ]
thithhai hor n koee hor ||
No one else dwells there,

iqQY joD mhwbl sUr ]
thithhai jodhh mehaabal soor ||
except the warriors of great power, the spiritual heroes.

iqn mih rwmu rihAw BrpUr ]
thin mehi raam rehiaa bharapoor ||
They are totally fulfilled, imbued with the Lord's Essence.

iqQY sIqo sIqw mihmw mwih ]
thithhai seetho seethaa mehimaa maahi ||
Myriads of Sitas are there, cool and calm in their majestic glory.

qw ky rUp n kQny jwih ]
thaa kae roop n kathhanae jaahi ||
Their beauty cannot be described.

nw Eih mrih n Twgy jwih ]
naa ouhi marehi n t(h)aagae jaahi ||
Neither death nor deception comes to those,

ijn kY rwmu vsY mn mwih ]
jin kai raam vasai man maahi ||
within whose minds the Lord abides.

iqQY Bgq vsih ky loA ]
thithhai bhagath vasehi kae loa ||
The devotees of many worlds dwell there.

krih Anµdu scw min soie ]
karehi ana(n)dh sachaa man soe ||
They celebrate; their minds are imbued with the True Lord.

"Eko Naam jee"

Quote

The reason why I did not answer your questions Kulbir Singh Ji are because I know that no one on this forum would agree with my view, and therefore would use my answers against me. Where, the reason I posted was to try to inform others to respect the likes of Raja Janak.

I again urge you to answer the questions I asked you in my last 3 posts. Don't worry if others on this forum agree with you or not. You asked questions and we answered them. Now it's your turn to answer the questions I asked you. Please do Kirpa. Questions are repeated for your convenience:

1. Do you agree that according to Gurmat, Gurmukh is such person who has a Satguru?
2. Do you agree that Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee is Satguru?
3. Sat or Sach or Truth is only one and not two. So do you agree that there is only one Satguru?
4. If you don't agree that there is only one Satguru, then please let us know who else has been Satguru, besides Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee?
5. You claim that Raja Janak jee was a Gurmukh in the Gurmat sense. Then please let us know the name of his Satguru? When did Raja Janak meet this Satguru? Give some historical reference.
6 Ashtavakra and Sukhdeo are the only known gurus of Raja Janak and they were not even Brahmrishis (who are 7), let alone Satguru. Then how was Raja Janak a Gurmukh in Gurmat sense when his guru was not Satguru?

Quote

Where, the reason I posted was to try to inform others to respect the likes of Raja Janak.

Who told you that we don't respect Raja Janak? We do respect him for his Kamaaee but just don't believe that he in his life in Treta Yug was a Gurmukh in Gurmat sense because he did not meet Satguru jee. This does not meet we don't respect him.

Quote

Quote
the level of Karam Khand which too is above Maya.


I cannot find this in Bani as well. According to Gurbani, Karam Khand is not even possible to describe.

But Karam Khand has been defined in Siri Jap jee Sahib. It's Sachkhand that can't be described. I don't know what you are trying to prove here.

Quote

I never said any Gursikh, as I know that for Gursikhs like Baba Buddha Ji and Dhan Baba Deep Singh Ji etc, they could do this. What I said was this; ‘Could one of the readers or writers on this forum save me from going to hell?’

But why did you ask if any readers could save anyone from hell? The point is that if not the readers, then the elder brothers of the readers i.e. the senior Gurmukhs that have been mentioned above, can surely save many from hell. The point was that if Raja Janak whom Gurbani clearly says was inferior to Gurmukhs, can save people from hell, then Gurmukhs surely can do this feat. Please refer to this Gurbani Pankiti:

ਹਰਿ ਕੇ ਸੰਤ ਜਨਾ ਮਹਿ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਤੇ ਜਨ ਊਤਮ ਜਨਕ ਜਨਾਕ ॥
(Within the Sants (Gursikhs) of Hari, there is Har Har Gurmat Naam and for this reason, they are superior to Janak and likes of Janak).

Quote

This point osunds confused Singh Ji. As you said that if you see Vaheguru in all you wouldn’t see chanters of kirtam naam same as gursikhs of guru nanak ji. But if you see God everywhere, how can you see the difference in anyone? Therefore Vaheguru must look down upon people? – God is all loving, therefore a Gurmukh also becomes this – This is Very clearly written in Mool mantar.

I don't understand where the confusion is. You are saying that if you see Vaheguru in all, then you should see chanters of Kirtam Naam and chanters of Sat-Naam at same level. What kind of logic is this? Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee is the greatest of all and He sees 5 different Khands and he also sees sinners and the pious. A Gurmukh of high level would love all beings but this does not mean that he would think that a Manmukh and a Gurmukh are same or that Bhagats of different paths are same. Seeing people honestly, at different levels of spiritual evolution does not mean looking down on them. Becoming a Gurmukh of high level does not mean that you would consider Satguru and an ordinary guru as one or that you would see Kirtam Naam and the True Naam at one level.

Quote

Kulbir Singh Ji, I am not trying to personally attack you.

I know. I never thought that you were attacking. Having different opinions is just fine. We can agree to disagree and still have same amount of love for each other, as before. So don't worry about this aspect.

Quote

But please try to use knowledge which you have gained from your own experience. Not knowledge which you have read or studied from other sources, this is where views differ. As Gurbani is there to be practiced and we can only then have true understanding of it once we practice and experience what it says. Try to let go of all these concepts which have been read, and write from your experiences.

It's impossible to write everything from our own experiences. Our Gurdev Pita jee has written Gurbani for us and where Gurbani is clear about a certain concept, we don't need to confirm that concept with our own experience. Gurbani says that there are millions of moons, suns and universes. Do we need to experience them before believing and preaching this concept? Same way, Gurbani says it clearly that no one has ever attained Vaheguru without Satguru (6th Pauri Siri Asa kee Vaar). Do we need to experience this? No. We just need to believe in this concept. If we don't believe that Satguru is Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee and that Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee is the greatest of all, then we are not true Sikhs of our Guru. If we believe that every Tom and Harry can be a Gurmukh and Satguru, then we are disrespecting our Guru Sahibaan and our beloved Gurmukhs.

It's a Mahapaap to believe that Vaheguru has a Shareek i.e. someone equal to his level or someone who shares power with Him. It's also a Mahapaap to believe that Satguru has a shareek i.e. another Satguru. If there can be another Satguru, then what's the greatness or uniqueness of advent of Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee in Kaljug?

I urge you that before moving forward, answer the questions I have asked you repeatedly.

Humbly,
Kulbir Singh

It's a Mahapaap to believe that Vaheguru has a Shareek i.e. someone equal to his level or someone who shares power with Him. It's also a Mahapaap to believe that Satguru has a shareek i.e. another Satguru


ਤੁਧੁ ਜੇਵਡੁ ਹੋਰੁ ਸਰੀਕੁ ਹੋਵੈ ਤਾ ਆਖੀਐ ਤੁਧੁ ਜੇਵਡੁ ਤੂਹੈ ਹੋਈ ॥
ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ

Kalyug the best from the ages


ਚਹੁ ਜੁਗੀ ਕਲਿ ਕਾਲੀ ਕਾਂਢੀ ਇਕ ਉਤਮ ਪਦਵੀ ਇਸੁ ਜੁਗ ਮਾਹਿ ॥
Kali Yuga is called the Dark Age, but the most sublime state is attained in this age.

Raja Janak was from Treta Yug but as this shabad line explains that from all the four ages the highest and supreme state can only be reached in this yug! So, Raja Janak had to have met Guru Nanak Dev Jee in Kalyug to have been called a True Gurmukh, as Satguru only revealed himself in Kalyug. So, NO WAY could Raja Janak have met Guru Nanak dev Jee in the previous yuga because that would mean he reached the level of Bhramgyani (highest state) which is impossible according to this shabad line. The following will give a better understanding.

ਸਤਜੁਗਿ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ਛਲਿਓ ਬਲਿ ਬਾਵਨ ਭਾਇਓ ॥
In the Golden Age of Sat Yuga, You were pleased to deceive Baal the king, in the form of a dwarf.

ਤ੍ਰੇਤੈ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ਰਾਮੁ ਰਘੁਵੰਸੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥
In the Silver Age of Traytaa Yuga, You were called Raam of the Raghu dynasty.

ਦੁਆਪੁਰਿ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਮੁਰਾਰਿ ਕੰਸੁ ਕਿਰਤਾਰਥੁ ਕੀਓ ॥
In the Brass Age of Dwaapur Yuga, You were Krishna; You killed Mur the demon and saved Kans.

ਉਗ੍ਰਸੈਣ ਕਉ ਰਾਜੁ ਅਭੈ ਭਗਤਹ ਜਨ ਦੀਓ ॥
You blessed Ugrasain with a kingdom, and You blessed Your humble devotees with fearlessness.

ਕਲਿਜੁਗਿ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਣੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰੁ ਅੰਗਦੁ ਅਮਰੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥
In the Iron Age, the Dark Age of Kali Yuga, You are known and accepted as Guru Nanak, Guru Angad and Guru Amar Das.

The above shabad explains who Vaheguru came onto earth as in the yuga. Through his Sargun form, Vishnu, he came on earth first as the Dwarf, Raam and then Krishan who were imperfect. So, a Gurmukh in those ages could only go as high as Vishnu. In Kalyug, Vaheguru Jee the Nirgun/Perfect/True form revealed himself through Guru Nanak Dev Jee. Therefore, Raja Janak could have only reached a high spiritual state under Vishnu but not the true mukti state. For that he would have had to wait for Kalyug to come so that he could meet Satguru just as Bhagat Prahlaad, Sukhdev, Sri Raam and other angelic beings did (explained later).

siqgur nwnk pRgitAw imtI DuMD jg cwnx hoAw]
With the emergence of the True Guru Nanak, the mist cleared and the light scattered all around.

ijau kir sUrju inkilAw qwry Cip AMDyr ploAw]
As if at the sun rise the stars disappeared and the darkness dispelled.

isMG buky imrgwvlI BMnI jwie n DIir DroAw]
With the roar of the lion in the forest the flocks of escaping deer now cannot have endurance.

ijQY bwbw pYr Dir pUjw Awsxu Qwpix soAw]
Wherever Baba put his feet, a religious place was erected and established.

isD Awsix siB jgq dy nwnk Awd mqy jy koAw]
All the siddh-places now have been renamed on the name of Nanak.

Gir Gir AMdir Drmswl hovY kIrqnu sdw ivsoAw]
Every home has become a place of dharma where singing.

bwby qwry cwir cik nauKMif ipRQmI scw FoAw]
Baba liberated all four directions and nine divisions of earth.

gurmuiK kil ivic prgt hoAw ]27]
Gurmukh (Guru Nanak) has emerged in this Kalyug, the dark age.(27)


This pauri from Bhai Gurdas jee’s Vaaran further proves that Guru Nanak Dev jee only appeared (pargat) in this age, kalyug.

Gurmukh

ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਜਾਣੀਐ ਜਾ ਕਉ ਆਪਿ ਕਰੇ ਪਰਗਾਸੁ ॥੩॥
O Nanak, he alone is known as Gurmukh, unto whom the Lord reveals Himself. ||3||

A Gurmukh is someone who finds God. This means, in the previous yuga, a Gurmukh was someone who found Vishnu (sargun form). However, the above shabad is making clear that only he/she is a True Gurmukh who finds Vaheguru – the True Form. In order to find Vaheguru we have to jap the True Naam which is only available through Satguru –

ਬਿਨੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕਿਨੈ ਨ ਪਾਇਓ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਮਿਲੈ ਮਿਲਾਇ ॥

Thus, the Vaheguru mantar has only been revealed in Kalyug through Guru Sahib -

ਕਲਿ ਸਮੁਦ੍ਰ ਭਏ ਰੂਪ ਪ੍ਰਗਟਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮ ਉਧਾਰਨੁ ॥
In the ocean of this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, the Lord's Name has been revealed in the Form of Guru Arjun, to save the world.
(from the Bhatts bania, in Guru Granth Sahib Jee, in the praise of Guru Arjun Dev Jee)

In Bhai Gurdaas Jee’s Vaaran, the line below, clearly states that only when the Gurmukh meets Satguru is his/her goal achieved. Meaning that the Gurmukh meets Vaheguru and is therefore called a True Gurmukh -

gurmiuK suK Plu jnmu siqguru pwieAw]
The life of that Gurmukh is successful who has met the True Guru.

Festival Abhaijit

Here is the link to the full shabad of this festival: [www.sikhitothemax.com]

Gurbani mentions names of many devotees of God from the previous yuga because in Kalyug they were liberated by Guru Sahib. Bhagat Prahlaad is called a gurmukh too in Gurbani but he is only liberated by Guru Raam Das Jee according to Gurbani. In this shabad, it describes the event/festival of Abhaijit which Guru Sahib went to with his Sikhs.

ਦੇਖਣਿ ਆਏ ਤੀਨਿ ਲੋਕ ਸੁਰਿ ਨਰ ਮੁਨਿ ਜਨ ਸਭਿ ਆਇਆ ॥
The angelic beings and silent sages from all the three worlds came to see Him.

ਜਿਨ ਪਰਸਿਆ ਗੁਰੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਪੂਰਾ ਤਿਨ ਕੇ ਕਿਲਵਿਖ ਨਾਸ ਗਵਾਇਆ ॥
Those who are touched by the Guru, the True Guru - all their sins and mistakes were erased and dispelled.

Suraa (angelic like beings) came from all three worlds, which include the sat pataals (where Prahlaad, king Bali etc live) and the sat Akaash (seven heavens), to see Guru Sahib so that they could be blessed.

Continuing (I corrected the translation below) -

ਗੁਰੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਗੋਵਿਦੁ ਪੁਛਿ ਸਿਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਕੀਤਾ ਸਹੀ ॥
The Guru, the True Guru, the Guru is the Lord of the Universe. Go ahead and consult the Simritees, which have been corrected by Guru Sahib.

ਸਿਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਸਾਸਤ੍ਰ ਸਭਨੀ ਸਹੀ ਕੀਤਾ ਸੁਕਿ ਪ੍ਰਹਿਲਾਦਿ ਸ੍ਰੀਰਾਮਿ ਕਰਿ ਗੁਰ ਗੋਵਿਦੁ ਧਿਆਇਆ ॥
The Simritees and the Shaastras have been corrected by Guru Sahib. Guru Sahib made Suk Dayv, Prahlaad and Raam Chandar meditate on the Lord of the Universe (vaheguru).

ਦੇਹੀ ਨਗਰਿ ਕੋਟਿ ਪੰਚ ਚੋਰ ਵਟਵਾਰੇ ਤਿਨ ਕਾ ਥਾਉ ਥੇਹੁ ਗਵਾਇਆ ॥
The five thieves and the highway robbers dwell in the fortress of the body-village; the Guru has destroyed their home and place.

ਕੀਰਤਨ ਪੁਰਾਣ ਨਿਤ ਪੁੰਨ ਹੋਵਹਿ ਗੁਰ ਬਚਨਿ ਨਾਨਕਿ ਹਰਿ ਭਗਤਿ ਲਹੀ ॥
The Puraanas continually praise the giving of charity, but devotional worship of the Lord is only obtained through the Word of Guru Nanak.

This part of the shabad has affirmed important points; one is that Prahlaad, Sukhdev and Raamchandar were given the True Name (Vaheguru) by Guru Sahib to meditate on and the second is that True Bhagti of Vaheguru is only obtained through GURU NANAK!

To conclude, we have found that he/she can only be called a True Gurmukh who goes through Satguru to be truly liberated (muktee) and find Vaheguru. Secondly, Satguru is only found in Kalyug. Therefore, raja janak only obtained Vaheguru and became a True Gurmukh in Kalyug.