Some time back, I had the privelage of doing sangat of a bazurg sarblohi gurmukh. While doing amritvela naam abhiyaas together, I noticed that he kept a 3 feet kirpan and a safajung in his lap. I asked him the reason for doing so and he replied " gursikh de shastran de nerre maya nahin aande" (maya does not come near shastars of a gursikh).

Next day I decided to try the same thing and kept 4 kirpans on my 4 sides and 1 saffajung on my lap and it greatly increased my concentration while doing abhiyaas.

I also like doing "rees" of gurmukhs.

But yes, it is indeed true. Apart from the protection of the five kakkars.

I use a 3 foot kirpaan during amritvela on days, and it feels great.

Can't really describe the feeling in words, it has to be felt.

THanks for sharing Veer Ji.

Yes most definitely Shasters aid in doing Naam Abhyiias because Guru Sahib gives the Hukum

ਇਹੈ ਮੋਰ ਆਗਿਆ ਸੁਨੋ ਲੈ ਪਿਆਰੇ | ਬਿਨਾ ਤੇਗ ਕੇਸੰ ਦਿਵੋ ਨ ਦਿਦਾਰੇ |
ਇਹੈ ਮੋਰ ਬੈਨਾਂ ਮੰਨੈ ਸੁ ਜੋਈ, ਤਿਸੈ ਇੱਛ ਪੂਰੀ ਸਭੇ ਜਾਨ ਜੋਇ।

Beloved ones ( Gurmukhs) listen to my commands! Without kes and tegh you will not get my darshan ( audience)
Those who follow my commands ( becoming ShasterDhari) all their desires will be fullfilled.
- Bhai Sukha Singh Ji Gurbilas

When we first wake and desire Guru Jis darshan through Gurbani , GUru Sahib promises his darshan if we keep and respect
Shasters and Kesh; thus Kesi Ishnaan and Satkar for Shasters is a great aide to naam abyiaas. Also Bana help
in Naam Abhyiaas.

ਕੱਛ ਸਵੇਤ ਔਰ ਨੀਲ ਪਟ, ਜਪੁ ਅਰੁ ਜਾਪੁ ਓੁਚਾਰ
ਸ੍ਰੀ ਅਕਾਲ ਉਸਤਤਿ ਕਰੇ, ਚੰਡੀ ਕੰਠ ਸੁਧਾਰਿ ।
Bhai Daya Singh Ji rehatnama

According to Hukum, Puratan SInghs would dress in white Kashera, Dark Blue CHola, decorate themselves with Sarab Loh ( shasters) and use to do darshan of Shasters and recite Chandi Di Vaar after Panj Bania

In his writings about Sarab Loh Bibek, Bhai Randhir SIngh Ji says the day we take birth in the House of GUru Nanak we are given a new birth and from that day on words we live a life in accordance to the conduct which happens during Amrit Sanchar.Bhai Randhir SIngh Ji also mentions Bibekee SInghs give satkaar to Shasters. In original Amrit Sanchar, GUru Sahib first gave satkaar to shasters ,and Sri Chandi Di Vaar was recited before preparing amrit. This is why some SIkhs continue to recite Chandi Di Vaar as part of their nitnem. The recitation of Chandi Di Vaar gives
a tremendous boost in Naam Abhyiaas.

That bazurg singh jee also told me that Sarabloh Jee resides in Karam khand. Guru Sahib Jees army also resides in Karam khand. Karam khand is full of sarabloh and shasters and as a result Maya does not dare to enter Karam Khand.

Keeping a Kirpan (big one) definitely helps when doing Abhyaas or Paath. Being in Baana and loaded with Shasters brings an amazing spiritual feeling.

Kulbir Singh

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Keeping a Kirpan (big one) definitely helps when doing Abhyaas or Paath. Being in Baana and loaded with Shasters brings an amazing spiritual feeling.

Kulbir Singh

Veer Ji, I think there is a difference between Kirpan and Sri Sahib. Sri Guru Hargobind Sahib gave kirpan to emphasize Piri concept,and gave
Sri Sahib for emphasis on Miri Concept. Kirpan is for deg and Sri Sahib is for panthic dusht. One gets darshan of kirpan during kirpan bhet, and one does parkaash of Teg/Sri Sahib before and during a fight. Guru Sahib made kirpan mandatory to emphasize saintly qualites because when Sri Sahib is in the hands of a Non Bibekee SIngh the person acts no different then a beast with claws.

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Veer Ji, I think there is a difference between Kirpan and Sri Sahib. Sri Guru Hargobind Sahib gave kirpan to emphasize Piri concept,and gave Sri Sahib for emphasis on Miri Concept. Kirpan is for deg and Sri Sahib is for panthic dusht. One gets darshan of kirpan during kirpan bhet, and one does parkaash of Teg/Sri Sahib before and during a fight. Guru Sahib made kirpan mandatory to emphasize saintly qualites because when Sri Sahib is in the hands of a Non Bibekee SIngh the person acts no different then a beast with claws.

Interesting!

Could you please give some evidence or Pramaan that shows the difference between Kirpan and Siri Sahib? I have heard the difference between Kirpan and Talvaar but not a difference between Kirpan and Siri Sahib. Both are names given to the Shiromini Shaster, out of respect and both of these names are unique to Sikh faith i.e. these words are not found in other languages. I personally have been using these names - Kirpan and Siri Sahib - interchangeably.

Kulbir Singh

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Interesting!

Could you please give some evidence or Pramaan that shows the difference between Kirpan and Siri Sahib? I have heard the difference between Kirpan and Talvaar but not a difference between Kirpan and Siri Sahib. Both are names given to the Shiromini Shaster, out of respect and both of these names are unique to Sikh faith i.e. these words are not found in other languages. I personally have been using these names - Kirpan and Siri Sahib - interchangeably.

Kulbir Singh

I too have a bad habit of using Kirpan and Sri Sahib interchangeably. However, kirpan is a kakkar symbolizing piri concept and Sri Sahib is a shaster representing Miri concept.

If you look at the rehatnamey you will notice the words kirpan and kard are referring to piri sword which is a kakkar while words such as Shaster , Tegh and Sri Sahib are referring to Miri Sword which is long in length compared to Piri sword.

For example
ਜੋ ਕਤਹੂੰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਹਿ ਪਾਵੈ, ਕਰਦ ਭੇਟ ਬਿਨ ਕਬਹੂੰ ਨ ਖਾਵੈ
Do not eat food which has not been blessed with kard ( kirpan)
Bhai Desa SIngh Rehatnama

Through oral tradition we know we do kard( kirpan bhet) with small sword not big sword which is meant for fighting.Can you imagine
Puratan SInghs using the same sword they chopped somebodys head with on the deg for bhet?
The word persian word kard means small sword and Puratan SInghs keep kard at all times as they could not eat
without doing kard( kirpan ) bhet. A kard which is placed in dastar can be used as a weapon but the kard
which is a kakkar is generally not used for warfare. Going back to usage of the word kirpan

BHai CHaupa SIngh Jis rehatnamey state

ਕਛ ਕੜਾ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਨ ਕੰਘਾ ਕੇਸਕੀ, ਇਹ ਪੰਜ ਕਕਾਰੀ ਰਹਿਤ ਧਾਰੇ ਸਿੱਖ ਸੋਈ।
Bhai Chaupa Singh Ji

Above the word Kirpan is used as a kakkar.
In a different rehatnama which I cant find at this time, BHai Chaupa SIngh Ji states do not do #2 ( jungle pani) with Sri Sahib on. We know Kirpan is a kakkar and can never be removed even when going to the restroom while Sri Sahib is not a kakkar and can be removed
in places like restroom, shower, etc.

Here are some more example from Bhai Daya SIngh Jis rehatnama highlighting differences between miri sword ( shaster, tegh) and piri sword ( kard, kirpan).

1ਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰ ਤਨ ਮੈਂ ਧਾਰੇ ਬਿਨਾ ਮਯਾਨ ਤੇ ਤੇਗ ਹਾਥ ਮੈਂ ਰਾਖੈ
2.ਕਰਦ ਭੇਟ ਬਿਨ ਪਾਨ ਨਹ‌ਿ ਅਕਾਲ ਭਾਵ ਸਤ ਭਾਖ
3. ਪੰਜ ਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰ ਧਰ ਦੇਹ ਪੈ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਨ ਗਾਤਰੇ ਰਾਖ

Notice here Panj Shaster is separate from Kirpan. Kirpan is a kakkar.
Kharagh (Sri Sahib ) chakar ( quoit), bandooka ( long rifle), dhanuk ( bow), katar ( hand dagger) etc are part
of Panj Shasters. Shasters are distinct from kakkars. We pay respect to Kakkars but
we dont matha tekh to them like we do with shasters.

Sukhdeep Singh jeeo, there is no solid or even slight proof in your post to suggest that only Kakaar Kirpan can be called Kirpan and that big Kirpan cannnot be called Kirpan but should be called Siri Sahib. You have also suggested in your post that Kirpan is just a symbol of Piri and cannot be used as a weapon. There is no indication either oral tradition or written scriptures that Kakaar Kirpan cannot be used in the battlefield. As the matter of fact, quite the opposite is true.

Please show proof from scriptures that show difference between Kirpan and Siri Sahib.

Kulbir Singh

Bhai Kulbir SIngh Jeeo,

In one of the post you stated

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Both are names given to the Shiromini Shaster, out of respect and both of these names are unique to Sikh faith i.e. these words are not found in other languages. I

You are correct in saying these words Kirpan and Sri Sahib are very distinct and only used in the House of Gurmat. If you read all the rehatnamay there are only two names given to Kirpan they are Kard and Kirpan. You will not find one rehatnama where the word Sri Sahib refers to Kirpan. If such a rehatnama or historical pangti exist please provide the pangti .However, you will find countless holy names in Gurbani and rehatnamey referring to Sri Sahib ( Miri Sword) . Some include Sri Bhagautee, Peer, Maha Kaal, Maha Loh etc. We never refer to these kirtam names when referring to Kirpan. Why are these holy names attributed to Sri Sahib? Sri Sahib means holy master. Sri Sahib is our Guru our peer. The same cannot be said about Kirpan which is our ang ( limb) and should be treated with respect but Sri Sahib is our Guru. Gurmukhi is a very unique language . You will not find any language where people refer to sword as God. We worship sword as God, we do not worship ( respect) Kirpan to the extent we do with Sri Sahib. Those who respect/worship Sri Sahib they are protected in the battlefield through grace of Sri Sahib.

ਜੋ ਪੂਜਾ ਅਸਿਕੇਤੁ ਕੀ ਨਿਤ ਪ੍ਰਤਿ ਕਰੈ ਬਨਾਇ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਪਰ ਅਪਨੋ ਹਾਥ ਦੈ ਅਸਿਧੁਜ ਲੇਤ ਬਚਾਇ ॥
-Sri Dasmesh Pita Ji

ਜਿਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਖੰਡੇ ਪ੍ਰਤਾਪੀ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਦਾ ਸਨਮਾਨ ਤੇ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਸਤਿਕਾਰ ਹੈ, ਉਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਦੇ ਹੱਥਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਆਇਆ ਹੀ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਸੱਚਾ ਸ਼ੋਭਨੀਕ ਖੰਡੇਧਾਰ ਵਾਹ ਦਾਹ ਦਾ ਕੰਮ ਲੈ ਸਕਦੀ ਹੈ।
-Bhai Randhir SIngh Ji

Are there any Rehatnamey that say to do pooja/satkaar of Kirpan? No, however there is mention of worshipping Sri Sahib.

Guru Ka Sikh Sri Sahib Da Adab karey, Puja Kareh.
A Sikh of the Guru should respect and worship "Sri Sahib"
Bhai Chaupa SIngh Ji

We cannot assume here Sri Sahib is referring to the Kirpan.

As Kirpaan Khando Kharrag Tupak Tber Ar Teer!!
Saif Sarohi Saihthhee Yehai Hamaarey Peer

in the above Pangtees, the word Kirpaan has been along with other war weapons. In the second line, the aforementioned weapons of war have been called "Peer". Notice the word Kirpaan has been specifically used in the list or category of war weapons!!
I remember singing this Shabad couple of years back!! One could really feel the tone and energy expressed in the four lines of the Shabad!

Well said, Jaspreet Singh jeeo. The Pankiti indeed proves beyond doubt that Kirpan IS a shaster and not just a Piri symbol as Sukhdeep Singh jee has asserted. Here are some more verses that prove that Kirpan is used not only for Kakaar Kirpan but also for full sized Kirpan:

1. ਤੁਰਕੱਛਿ ਤੁਰੰਗ ਸਪੰਛ ਬਡੋ ਕਰਿ ਕਾਢ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਨ ਕਪਾਵਹਗੇ ॥ (Nihkalank Avtar)
(He (Nihkalank) will be seated on the big horse and will pull out his Kirpan and wave it)


2. ਝਾਰ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਨ ਜੁਝਾਰ ਬਡੇ ਰਣ ਮੱਧ ਮਹਾ ਛਬ ਪਾਵਹਗੇ ॥
(In the battlefield warriors will look great when they shake their Kirpan)


ਜੇ ਜੇ ਹੁਤੇ ਅਕਟੇ ਬਿਕਟੇ ਸੁ ਕਟੇ ਕਰਿ ਕਾਲ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਨ ਕੇ ਮਾਰੇ ॥95॥
(Such great unbeatable warriors were cut and killed by the sword of Kaal. )


There are numerous more Pramaans that proved beyond doubt that big sword that is used for fighting in the battlefield is called Kirpan and this is in Guru Sahib own language.

In the light of above Pramaans, we can safely use the word Kirpan not only for Kakaar Kirpan but also for full sized sword used by Gursikhs in the battlefield.

Kulbir Singh

<< The recitation of Chandi Di Vaar gives
a tremendous boost in Naam Abhyiaas.>>

Is this your personal experience or u heard or read somewhere ?

Since it's only through sarbloh we can reach Sachkhand, then it only makes sense that the more sarbloh we keep on us, the better it is for abiyass.

Thanks for providing the references in which Kirpan refers to Sri Sahib. As mentioned previous there are
numerous holy names referring to Sri Sahib. Uggardanti also refers to Kirpan as Sri Sahib.
The pauri Jaspreet SIngh quoted is from Shaster Nama Mala and Guru Sahib is saying Sri Sahib is his peer.
In the light of this information we can assert the holy name Kirpan can refer to SRi Sahib . But nowhere in Gurmat ( Gurbani, rehatnamey)
well you find the word Sri Sahib referring to kirpan ( kakkar) . There are only two words referring to Kirpan and they are
kard and kirpan. Once again , Sri Sahib is part of the Panj Shasters and they are our peer, Kirpan ( kakkar) is a panj kakkar
, our ang and can never leave our body.

There is immense power in Kirpan ( kakkar) because it was given by Guru Sahib in fact its from this power one is able to
fight successfully in the battefield. This is why this power always stays on us and is not used in the battlefield unless there is
some rare instance. If this kakkar leaves our body during the battlefield in a fight then we lost lots of power. Why would Puratan
Singhs use a small kirpan ( kakkar) when they had a katar or a Sri Sahib. Both Katar and Sri Sahib cause more damage then small
kirpan.

Quote

Is this your personal experience or u heard or read somewhere ?

Yes, this is my experience and every other SIngh I have talk to who recites Chandi DI Vaar.
Its Guru Jis Hukum to recite this bani , how can it not provide a tremendous boost?

GurmanSingh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Since it's only through sarbloh we can reach
> Sachkhand, then it only makes sense that the more
> sarbloh we keep on us, the better it is for
> abiyass.


Is only a Sarbloh Shastar beneficial? what about if a Singh does Naam abhyas with a Gun? Nothing is more inspiring to look at than a Tyar bar Tyar Singh in Bana with a rifle.

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But nowhere in Gurmat ( Gurbani, rehatnamey)
well you find the word Sri Sahib referring to kirpan ( kakkar) . There are only two words referring to Kirpan and they are
kard and kirpan. Once again , Sri Sahib is part of the Panj Shasters and they are our peer, Kirpan ( kakkar) is a panj kakkar
, our ang and can never leave our body.

A Sikh wearing a Kakaar Kirpan can be called a Shasterdhaari Gursikh, hence nothing wrong in calling his Kakaar-Kirpan a Siri Sahib.

In any case, this is such a minor issue; why get hung up on it? We need to get away from such Vehams (superstitions). If you call Kakaar Kirpan a Kirpan or a Siri Sahib, it makes no difference a far as Gurmat is concerned. We should try not to make issues out of non-issues.

Kulbir Singh

"In any case, this is such a minor issue; why get hung up on it? We need to get away from such Vehams (superstitions). If you call Kakaar Kirpan a Kirpan or a Siri Sahib, it makes no difference a far as Gurmat is concerned. We should try not to make issues out of non-issues"

Bhai Saihb I dont see how referring to ones kakkars as their ang and ones Sri Sahib as their Peer is superstituous . I just thought I shoud make
the distinction since many people commonly believe Sri Sahib and Kirpan are the same thing.

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Bhai Saihb I dont see how referring to ones kakkars as their ang and ones Sri Sahib as their Peer is superstituous . I just thought I shoud make the distinction since many people commonly believe Sri Sahib and Kirpan are the same thing.

In my original post, I had referred to the full sized sword as Kirpan and you had objected saying that full sized Kirpan should be referred to as Siri Sahib. You further asserted that Kirpan is for Piri concept. Now even after reading all the evidence from Baani, proving beyond doubt that Kirpan is both Kakaar Kirpan and full sized Kirpan you are still stuck at that thought.

Same way, if we refer to our Kakaar Kirpan as Siri Sahib, it does not constitute an anti-Gurmat Karam. This is why I think it is a superstition to think that if you call your Kakaar Kirpan a Siri Sahib, you are doing something wrong.

Siri Sahib and Kirpan means the same, as far as my meagre understanding is concerned. Siri Sahib is a word used out of respect for Kirpan and Kakaar Kirpan is not any less respectable than full sized Kirpan. All Shasters are respectable.

In Zafarnama, Guru Sahib has referred to a full sized sword as Shamsheer. In this light, can anyone dare say that we can't call our Kirpan a Shamsheer Sahib?

Kulbir Singh

"In Zafarnama, Guru Sahib has referred to a full sized sword as Shamsheer. In this light, can anyone dare say that we can't call our Kirpan a Shamsheer Sahib?"

Bhai Sahib, I dont think you are understadning what Im saying. Guru Sahib did major satkar to Sri Sahib. There are many names given to Sri Sahib including Shamsheer, Pir,Kirpan, Kirpanee, Maha Loh, etc. All the Gurbani pangtis that were posted were referring to Sri Sahib. I have not come across one rehatnama or historical reference in which Kirpan has been referred to as Sri Sahib. If you can provide one reference I will be willing to change my viewpoint. In Gurmat, and amongst many Gursikhs these attributive unique names are never given to Kirpan. The only names given to th kakkar are kard and kirpan. However, if you want to start a trend by referring to kirpan as Shamsheer Sahib by all means you have the freedom to do so. Guru Sahib gave his Sikhs two swords one miri and one piri . I think you are mixing up the two and regardign them as the same thing.
Theres nothing left I have to say on this matter.

In Bachitra Natak, Guru sahib describes God as armed with kirpan

ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਣ ਪਾਣ ਧਾਰੀਅੰ ॥ ਕਰੋਰ ਪਾਪ ਟਾਰੀਅੰ ॥
क्रिपाण पाण धारीअं ॥ करोर पाप टारीअं ॥
He, who wields the sword in his hand, he is the remover of millions of sins.

Bachitra natak, Sri dasam Granth sahib

In ardas we say

"In ardas we say "deg teg fateh panth ki jeet sri sahib sahiai."

great sukhdip singh! as usual you totally destroyed the topic by goinng offtopic. god knows where you find these new theories. dont call it kirpan, don't call it sri sahab. call it this call it that. what is the relevence of all this??? wht has this got to do with gurmat??

admin should take caution and not let threads go off topic. sukhdeep singh, pls start new topic in the future. dont destroy the threads. have mercy!!