People Who Volunteer Live Longer, Study Suggests

100% agreed to Preetam Singh Ji. Daas even have a feeling that our only aim should be to do Naam/Simran,Once Gurmukh reaches a level of spirituality Guru Sahib himself takes Sewa from him for PANTHIC Kaaz(If needed).

Vaheguru jee ka Khalsa Vaheguru jee kee fateh!

Preetam Singh - thanks for your response you meniton:

It is important to understand that whenever anyone who does not have divine power starts to try to save the world, it always ends up failing.

there is also flaw in this logic too - -as there are people other than Gursikhs who are helping other people in this world too !! and they haven't failed-

[www.bbc.co.uk]

it's not about looking for flaws on forums Preetam Singh jeeo - just doing the obivous - period!! I am shocked that Gursikhs of high calibre are missin the basic simple point -- will not be posting on this thread no more.

BHai Preetam Singh Jeeo,

Though you make some good points I think you are misinformed about the Miri Piri Sedant entailed in SIkhi.
In his books BHai Randhir SIngh Ji mentioned the necessity of doing good karams according to Gurmat. He has
a whole section titled Rehat Bibek which highlights the miri side of Sikhi. Both Simran Bibek and Rehat BIbek go hand
in hands for a Gursikh.We cannot neglect some hukums . A Gurmukh BIbekee makes efforts in trying to abide by all Hukums,
BHai Daya Singh Jis rehatnama says do not delay in doing good deeds? Isnt this Rehatnama universal for all Gursikhs or does
it just apply to BrahmGIanis or Joti Vigasi SIkhs as it seems like you are claiming.

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Preetam SIngh
Every Guriskh's prime goal should be to attain jot vigaas, only after that can we start to help people. How can a blind man lead the way through this maze life?

Bhai Sahib, before we try to be a BrahmGIani we first need to try to be a human by practicing human qualities based on Gurmat, THen we
can be regarded as Brahmgiani ( Manukh Pardaan).
[www.sikhitothemax.com]

We cannot expect to jump to Algebra without learning basic mathematics. Same thing with GUrmat spirituality. We cannot reach high levels of Spirituality untill we abide by the Hukums of Guru Sahib.Again Gurmukh Bibeks follow all hukums of Guru Sahib .
THe path of GUrmat BIbek is different and distinct from the path of Bahamanism.

Quote
Preetam SIngh
It is important to understand that whenever anyone who does not have divine power starts to try to save the world, it always ends up failing.

Bhai Sahib, Guru Sahib has promised anybody who stays distinct from Bahamnism then they will receive all of GUrus power. GUru Sahib
will guide them in doing his seva. As long as one stays firm in rehat and has faith in rehat they can perform his seva. Guru Sahib did not create the path so we live secluded like yogis.

ਸਿੰਘਨ ਪੰਥ ਕਬ ਲੁਕ ਛਿਪ ਹੋਯੋ, ਸਿੰਘਨ ਪੰਥੂ ਕਬ ਲੁਕੈ ਲੁਕੌਯੋ।
ਸਿੰਘਨ ਪੰਥ ਜੁੱਧ ਕੋ ਭਇਓ, ਸਿੰਘਨ ਜਨਮ ਸੰਗ ਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰਨ ਲਇਓ॥੭॥
The Panth of Singhs was not born in seclusion nor can the panth of Singhs ever be in seclusion.
The panth of Singhs was created for warfare , since their birth ( Amrit Sanchar) Singhs have been born weapons.
Sri GUru Granth Parkaash


You dont need to be a brahmgiani to perfrom Guru Jis seva. In fact, you cant get brahmgian without serving Gurmukhs.
ਨਾ ਹਰਿ ਭਜਿਓ ਨ ਗੁਰ ਜਨੁ ਸੇਵਿਓ ਨਹ ਉਪਜਿਓ ਕਛੁ ਗਿਆਨਾ ॥

"Its better to serve the saints then trying to become a saint" - Baba ISher Singh Ji

If GUru Sahib did not want us to do good deeds then why did he create langar . Can only
Brahmignais do langar seva? Langar is not a social buffet where we stuff our mouths with barfee and gulab jaman all day.

No one is saying that a Gursikh should not do Seva or serve Gursikhs and humanity but what we need to remember is that Naam takes precedence over everything else. If one does not do Naam Simran and if one does not pursue the primary goal of attainment of Vaheguru, then all else that he does is not in accordance to Gurmat.

Seva of humanity cannot be done and shouldn't be done at the cost of Gurmat spirituality. As an example, if one is serving humanity and sleeping late everyday resulting in missing Amritvela, then what good is such Seva? Such Seva of humanity that causes one to lose focus on the primary goal of achieving Vaheguru should be avoided. Such Seva of humanity keeps a person within the Traigunn of Maya.

No one is saying that we should not do Seva or serve the Khalqat (world) but a Sikh must remember that the main goal is to attain Vaheguru and Vaheguru can be attained only if we obey all Hukams of Guru Sahib including giving precedence to Gurmat Naam Abhyaas Kamaaee, following Gurmat Rehit Maryada and doing Seva.

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Bhai Sahib, before we try to be a BrahmGIani we first need to try to be a human by practicing human qualities based on Gurmat, THen we
can be regarded as Brahmgiani ( Manukh Pardaan).

Sukhdeep Singh jeeo, where does it say in the Shabad you quoted that we must first become humans before trying to become Brahmgyanis. This talk of trying to become Insaan/Manukh/Human is all nonsense preached by secularists. According to Gurmat only such person is to be considered to be a sane person who comes to the Sharan of the Satguru and becomes a Sikh. Baaki "Jag Kamla Phire...".

Kulbir Singh

BHai Kulbir SIngh Jeeo,

No doubt without Naam then "Jag Kamla Phire...". I think we all can agree on this.
But we need to take into consideration without contact of Gursikhs the world
will never know about Naam and remain crazy. They need our help and we cant sit in our caves ( homes)
while the world is going mad.
ਸਿਧ ਛਪਿ ਬੈਠੇ ਪਰਬਤੀ ਕਉਣੁ ਜਗਤ੍ਰਿ ਕਉ ਪਾਰਿ ਉਤਾਰਾ।
Bhai Gurdas Ji

The GUrbani pangti I mentioned previously
[www.sikhitothemax.com] GurSahib tells the bahaman he needs
to practice virtuous qualities like truth , love, forgiveness, patience before
he can regard him self as a Brahmin ( Manuk Pardhan , Brahmgiani)
The same logic applies to us. Before we regard ourselves as a Brahmgiani/gurmukh
we need to practice virtuous qualities. Who do we practice gurmat qualities too? To
humans and all beings we come into contact with. I have no idea why you believe
this is non-sense and a secularist ideal. This is miri piri ideal highlighted in our literature,
history, rehatnamey, and Gurbani. I can provide so many examples.

A person goes through stages in their life. Before Amrit they think and act like animals. WHen taking
AMrit they start to gain a little knowledge and apply this to their daily life; thus, they transcend
from animal mentality to human. The more they practice GUrmat they eventually become Gurmukh ( Brahmgiani).
We cant expect to jump from animal to brahmgiani over night. Such things take work, and our main tool
is Naam Abhyiaas but Naam Abhyiaas is difficult unless one practices Gurmat qualities when interacting
with others.

I had to come back due to Kulbir SIngh jee's text above - perfect so perfect but missing one vital important ingredient -- where Dasm Patsah said

"Recognise all of the human race as one.

- Guru Gobind Singh Ji


and when you goto this site - check it out and DONATE in the name of humanity

and question what wrong with doing seva - serving humanity as well as amirtwela and all Gursikee karms ??

Just imagine could you say this to Mahraaj who helped humanity for water - hunger everywhere they went how could you say that:

Seva of humanity cannot be done and shouldn't be done at the cost of Gurmat spirituality

you have to be totally insane to say that Kulbir Singh jeeo -- retract your words

Quote

No doubt without Naam then "Jag Kamla Phire...". I think we all can agree on this.
But we need to take into consideration without contact of Gursikhs the world
will never know about Naam and remain crazy. They need our help and we cant sit in our caves ( homes)
while the world is going mad.

Sukhdeep Singh jeeo, I agree. Hukam to Gursikh is to not only Japp Naam but also inspire others to Japp Naam. So, no difference here. The only thing to remember is that firstly, there is nothing wrong in Japping Naam in solitude or seclusion and secondly before a Gursikh can embark on inspiring others to Japp Naam, he himself has to be Japping Naam.

Quote

The GUrbani pangti I mentioned previously
[www.sikhitothemax.com] GurSahib tells the bahaman he needs
to practice virtuous qualities like truth , love, forgiveness, patience before
he can regard him self as a Brahmin ( Manuk Pardhan , Brahmgiani)
The same logic applies to us.

The Shabad you quoted is talking primarily about Naam Abhyaas:

ਸਲੋਕ ਮ: ੧ ॥
ਸਚੁ ਵਰਤੁ ਸੰਤੋਖੁ ਤੀਰਥੁ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਇਸਨਾਨੁ ॥
ਦਇਆ ਦੇਵਤਾ ਖਿਮਾ ਜਪਮਾਲੀ ਤੇ ਮਾਣਸ ਪਰਧਾਨ ॥
ਜੁਗਤਿ ਧੋਤੀ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਚਉਕਾ ਤਿਲਕੁ ਕਰਣੀ ਹੋਇ ॥
ਭਾਉ ਭੋਜਨੁ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਵਿਰਲਾ ਤ ਕੋਈ ਕੋਇ ॥੧॥

The English translation you are reading is incorrect and makes it seem as if the Shabad is talking about only worldly virtues. The word Sach, Gyaan, Dhyaan, Jugat, Surath in Naam, Bhaau for Vaheguru etc. all relate to Naam Abhyaas. These are the ingredients of Naam Abhyaas. Jugat refers to Gurmat Naam Abhyaas Jugti and Surath refers to Surthi in Naam. Then Santokh, Daya and Khima etc should be practiced along with Gurmat Naam Abhyaas Kamaaee. But who is saying that we should not practice these Gurmat Virtues?

Quote

Seva of humanity cannot be done and shouldn't be done at the cost of Gurmat spirituality

you have to be totally insane to say that Kulbir Singh jeeo -- retract your words

NS44 jeeo, I have re-read my statement and still don't find it outrageous or insane as you have put it. Rather I find this notion insane that it is okay to risk your Sikhi for worldly Trai-Gunni Seva.

Trai-Gunni worldly Seva of humankind is fine and a Sikh should do but not at the cost of Sikhi. Sikhi comes first and all else comes after. Think of it - would you cut your Kesh if that would result in massive Seva of humankind?

Kulbir Singh

KUlbir SIngh Jeeo,

I think we can all agree that Naam Abyiaas take precedence over any other karam. But I think when you
state the pauri has nothing to do with GUrmat qualities then I think your interpretation of the following verses is incorrect.

ਸਲੋਕ ਮ: ੧ ॥
ਸਚੁ ਵਰਤੁ ਸੰਤੋਖੁ ਤੀਰਥੁ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਇਸਨਾਨੁ ॥
ਦਇਆ ਦੇਵਤਾ ਖਿਮਾ ਜਪਮਾਲੀ ਤੇ ਮਾਣਸ ਪਰਧਾਨ ॥
ਜੁਗਤਿ ਧੋਤੀ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਚਉਕਾ ਤਿਲਕੁ ਕਰਣੀ ਹੋਇ ॥
ਭਾਉ ਭੋਜਨੁ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਵਿਰਲਾ ਤ ਕੋਈ ਕੋਇ ॥੧॥

Its quite clear this verse is directed to Brahmins who regards themselves
as virtuous but really have no virtues. Lets take a look at some of the pangti
which show the pauri was originally directed to Brahmins even though the message
has a universal application.

First we have
ਸਚੁ ਵਰਤੁ ਸੰਤੋਖੁ ਤੀਰਥੁ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਇਸਨਾਨੁ ॥

We know that some of rituals of Bahamans include fasting ( vart) and pilgrmages ( teerath).

Next we have ਜੁਗਤਿ ਧੋਤੀ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਚਉਕਾ ਤਿਲਕੁ ਕਰਣੀ ਹੋਇ ॥

we know Bahmans are known for wearing dhoti (loincloth) and through
asa di vaar we know how they outwardly kept a clean kitchen but behind
closed doors they were butchers. This is why GUru Sahib says love should
be your food
ਭਾਉ ਭੋਜਨੁ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਵਿਰਲਾ ਤ ਕੋਈ ਕੋਇ ॥੧॥

only then they can regards themselves as a rare person ( Brahmin).

Its quite clear these verses are telling us to practice virtuous qualities in order for us to japp naam. Its obvious
if a person is showing they are virtuous through outward appearance ( mala, dhoti, etc) but inside they have no naam
and GUrmat qualities then such actions and appearance are futile. Same logic would apply to a Gursikh. If we wear BaNa
keep shasters, wear Kashera, but are cowards or have no self-control then we are no different then Bahmans and such
people are very far from Gurmat Naam Abhyiaas Kamaee.

Sukhdeep Singh jee, Bhai Sahib is not saying that these are not grmat virtues, but that these virtues/qualities are related to naam abhiyaas. These are all qualities we should strive to have while we are doing naam abhiyaas, but not to say we should not practice them all the time.

If we wish to do seva (which is in itself a guN) then we should start with bhagti. When we are saddened by the pain of others that we cannot heal, we should jap naam more intensely because Naam is what will give us the shakti and kamaee to truly help them. But to shift our focus from doing bhagti to trying to save the world is what will be our downfall. Guru Sahib has commanded us to make our life's sole mission to jap naam and meet Akaal Purakh. We don't have the option of swayong from this mission because to do so will never ever truly help anyone. The power to do true, wonderous seva will come when naam becomes entrenched in your soul. We can look at Bhai Kineyah Jee as an example!

Bhai Kulbir Singh jeeo yopu say;

"Trai-Gunni worldly Seva of humankind is fine and a Sikh should do but not at the cost of Sikhi. Sikhi comes first and all else comes after. Think of it - would you cut your Kesh if that would result in massive Seva of humankind?"

where did i ever say in posts above that it's ok to cut your kesh and ingnore all Gursikhe for the sake of seva of humanity?? instead of jumping on conclustion please reread my post as i will reiterate what i posted above:

and question what wrong with doing seva - serving humanity as well as amirtwela and all Gursikee karms ??


answer that question if you can brohter.

Quote

and question what wrong with doing seva - serving humanity as well as amirtwela and all Gursikee karms ??
answer that question if you can brohter.

There is nothing with such Seva as you have written above and as the matter of fact such Seva should be undertaken by all Gursikhs. The only worldly Seva that is not worth is if it causes us to lose Sikhi.

Kulbir Singh

SK Bhenji,

My simple understanding is without Seva then SImran becomes difficult. Bhai Rama SIngh Ji who is an
extinguished Naam Abhyiaasi SIngh has said Seva is one wing of the bird and SImran is the other wing both
have to be in work for the bird to soar to higher planes. My simple understanding of the pauri is to churn the Naam
one must practice virtuous Gurmat qualities.

I think there has been some misunderstanding. This whole time I was not talking about wordly seva. FOr example, I really dont
believe in serving the poor. IF anything the poor are more humble and dont need any help its the arrogant rich who need the most help. I was talking
about GUru Jis seva. This is why I gave the example of langar seva. Nobody needs to be at brahmgiani to do Guru Jis seva
they just need to be rehatvan. Yes its true if someone is not following rehat they need to focus more on simran and rehat and avoid seva
untill they become more firm in REhat, but there are some who are solid in their rehat and they remain indifferent to Physical seva as their
main goal is " Naam Abhyiiaas" All im saying is one can do both seva and simran at the same time.

what if a sikh is doing his or her amritwela and a plane crash or some similar catastrophe occurs nearby
what should this sikh do? ...

ns44 jeeo

is it ok to, as part of seva to waste gurdwara funds on making the gurdwara bigge,r to compete with other gurdwaras, likes it's some sort of game.

sahib24 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ns44 jeeo
>
> is it ok to, as part of seva to waste gurdwara
> funds on making the gurdwara bigge,r to compete
> with other gurdwaras, likes it's some sort of
> game.


sahib24 jeeo I'm no authority to answer such a question since when a bulding is made bigger it's usually a consensus of agreement in the sanagt of that particular Gurdwara .

But if a Gurdwara has grown bigger and it's serving the sangat in a variety of ways then cool, secondly it must also serve the wider sanagt and the wider community. I have heard of canadian singhs doing seva from lanagar to the homeless on the streets of canda..great job.
Veer jeeo if the Gurdwara in the future become the bedrock of insituitions that serve in a variety of ways and be a leading example for communities
and their issues then recognition of such service will be lay massive foundations for Sikhs to tangent of for influencing Sikhe on wider scale.

I am quite shocked at the response and length of this thread on volunteering - A Sikh is supposed to be someone any one can go to for help - how are people in a wider community going to know if we just capsulate in our own and only do seva of our own i just don't understand.

One thing is for certain - we are in western countries and enjoying the fruits of practising our relgion way way beyond what one can do in India.
It's only common sense we need to give back an extend the "sarbat da bhala" concept.

Bhai Kulbir Singh Jeeo,

Just one genuine question about ur comment (not for agrument sake):

"Seva of humanity cannot be done and shouldn't be done at the cost of Gurmat spirituality."

Usually during Samagams the laargri singhs have to do seva all night preparing the parshada and are usually not able to attend the amrit-vela in the morning or even if they do, usually they are very tired for obvious reasons.
In such circumstances, what should be chosen? langar seva or the amritvela?

SEWA OF HUMANITY vs GURU GHAR or GURSIKHAN DEE SEWA.

Though the question by Tejasv Ji is for Bhai Sahib Kulbir Singh Ji, I am trying to explain (or further confuse) it. The answer to the question lies (probably) in understanding the difference between two types of Sewa.

Gursikhan di Sewa is part and parcel of GURMAT BHAGTI. It cannot be seen in isolation of Bhagti. At Panja Sahib, Singhs sacrificed their lives to serve langar for Singhs. There are many examples in our history for that. At Harminder Sahib, when it was in the siege of Mughals, Singhs sacrificed their lives while trying to get in to clean the floors at midnight.--------------------------------------

Singhs also sacrificed their lives to save the honor of Hindu girls, no doubt. They always helped the needy and poor and deserving and even the enemy. That was sewa of humanity of course. But spirituality was not at stake for these types of Sewa.

When Veer Kulbir Singh Ji is writing about Seva of Humanity vs Spirituality, he is very clear to say that it should not be at the cost of Gurmat Bhagti. If I am so eager to help poor children to get education, I am not right if I am giving all my spare time to teach them alphabet. There could be other examples of Sewa of humanity, which are time and energy demanding.

May be this gives a hint to understand the point of view of Veer Kulbir Singh Ji.

Quote

Usually during Samagams the laargri singhs have to do seva all night preparing the parshada and are usually not able to attend the amrit-vela in the morning or even if they do, usually they are very tired for obvious reasons.
In such circumstances, what should be chosen? langar seva or the amritvela?

Seva in Guru Sahib's Darbar helps facilitate Gurmat Samagams where countless Gursikhs come to attain Laaha. The Sevadaar doing Seva in Samagams does so while continuosly chanting Naam, and hearing Kirtan.

Having said that, the Langar Seva should be organized and planned in such way that it does not result in one missing Amritvela. Amritvela should be done at all cost.

Kulbir Singh

Dass very much agrees with MB Singh jee. But, its importance is great in meager understanding.
When I was first introduced to AKJ, 2 things in Jatha stood out to me. Abhiyaas(Naam/Bani/Kirtan) & Seva.

Seva at Gurughar & of Gursikhs is an inseparable part of Gurmat Prema Bhagti provided it is done under the shelter of Naam in ones Jivan.
Why is it important to do such seva?
1.Gurughars(or wherever sangat gathers) or Gursikh sangat is where vibrations of Naam and Gurbani are produced. When we carry out such seva, we should do so for Naam. We prepare langgar because those who consume it will meditate & listen to Naam/Gurbani. We do jorean di sewa to collect the feets dust of those who came to listen to Gurbani/Naam.

If we carefully reflect, all such sevas are to be done due to Naam. End of the day, all such seva are done due to glory of Naam itself.

2. Gurmat has endless stress on humility. When we do seva of serving langgar or cleaning Gurughar, we should do so believing ourselves as slaves of SatGuroo. Yes, Naam is what will ultimately destroys houme. But, physical seva in a way helps us to adopt the mentality as "the slave of SatGuroo" more easily. Its an effective way to putting humility into practical 'practice'.

3. Physical seva only aides us spiritually if and only if while doing it our mind is attached to Naam/Gurbani.
----------------------------------------------------------
The above is only for seva related to Gursikhs and SatGuroo.

Chota veer

I totally agree with Kulbir singh and pritam singh that a person gets seva of panth according to their karams and kamai. Professor uday singh in toronto has such a great jiwan. one day he was in total bairaag and started telling us sakhis of bhai sahib randhir singh one of the stories he told us was that "One day he suddenly had the urge to meet bhai sahib randhir singh while he was at Jaladhar he cycled all theway to bhai sahibs house which is Narangwal bhai sahib at that time was sitting on a chair and said that i was waiting for you.They both started talking and suddenly a begger came and begged for money,bhai sahib got up from his chair with hardness and said in a deep voice this is what you get for telling, that was what i was trying to tell you before. Professor uday singh experienced many other incidents as well. They became friends ''.professor udhay singh used to tell me that he got the sewa of teaching kids gurmukhi because of Bhai sahibs silent ardasses to guru ji.This proves that as you do your naam the more sewa will be givento you by guruji.

I totally agree with manmandar singh because once a saw avery bazurg gurmukh pyeara and his name is bhai Udhay singh he teaches gurmukhi in rexdale and he also met Bhai sahib Randhir Singh.
vaheguru please bless with such a beautiful jiwan!

Related with this topic is some writing of Bhagat Puran Singh Ji of Pingalwara. He had written in a an article that the panth which sacrificed their lives for the release of a single brahmin woman from the captivity; should also worry for the women who are helpless due to mental disorders and are living a homeless life, putting their honor at risk.

Bhagat Ji is a prime example of service of humanity in the modern times.

Quote

Related with this topic is some writing of Bhagat Puran Singh Ji of Pingalwara. He had written in a an article that the panth which sacrificed their lives for the release of a single brahmin woman from the captivity; should also worry for the women who are helpless due to mental disorders and are living a homeless life, putting their honor at risk.

Bhagat Ji is a prime example of service of humanity in the modern times.

Well said Veer Ji! BHai Rama SIngh Ji mentions in his biography that only rare souls can do the kind
of work Bhagat Puran Ji did. Surely Bhagat Ji was a pooran singh who exemplified the Praupakaree Spirit of
Khalsa.

One day a Gursikh asked Sri Guru Hargobind Sahib what are some of the things one needs to do to go
to Sach Khand. One of the things Guru Sahib mentioned is take care of the homeless ( Suraj Parkaah). Also,
in Bhai Nand Singh Jis rehatnama Guru Sahib gives hukum to take take care of the homeless.

In Sau Sakhee , there is mention that towards the end of Kaljug governments well become so cold hearted that they
wont even take of their own needy citizens. I think Denmark and UK are the only two welfare states in the world.
Unfortunately , some minority communities try to take advantage of this generosity . THis is the beauty of SIkhi though
because it takes care of mans physical and spiritual needs. Sri Harmandir Sahib is the ideal place to teach us how
cities should be governed. Unfortunately it is becoming more and more commercialized due to tourism. Hopefully, people
in this area will use the flux of tourist as a means to propagate the works Bhagat Puran Singh Ji started.

Dhur Kee Sevaa Raam Raveejaii
Naanak Naam Milai Kirpaa Prabh Keejaai


Only a fool would argue that doing service for humanity is not a gurmat virtue, we are taught to help those in need.

Regardless, the most Uttam seva one can do, is jap naam.

Har Kee Sevaa Satgur Poojo

And what do we need to do pooja of ?

Raam Naam Sar Avar Naa Poojaai

Hence, Gurmat Naam Abhyaas Kamayee is the utmost top of the list seva.

No doubt followed by the seva to the world that is being spoken of.

As far as parchaar is concerned, a veer jee in toronto once told me, lead a jeevan so high and so chardee kala, that people simply looking at you becomes a form of parchaar.