Repost: thoof/incense sticks (by daas123)

thoof/incense sticks
Started by daas123

daas123 [ PM ]
thoof/incense sticks
January 29, 2012 01:50AM
Where did they originate from? I'm guessing it's a hindu tradition, maybe. But some people light it when they're doing paath - and in akhand paaths...


sk [ PM ]
Re: thoof/incense sticks
January 29, 2012 09:58AM
I believe its just something's that has been done for a long time throughout India, sometimes for ritualistic purposes, but often times just for practicality. As long as its not being used for ritualistic purposes during akhand paaths, it is fine to use. I've seen that when incense is used in the sukhasan room at my local gurughar, it creates a very nice atmosphere, which is quite suiting for Guru Sahib's kamra.


gsingh [ PM ]
Re: thoof/incense sticks
January 29, 2012 11:02AM
It's just to make the room smell nice! Nothing Hindu about it.


Bill Gates [ PM ]
Re: thoof/incense sticks
January 29, 2012 12:05PM
It's basically a scented candle in a sense. When used for scent, it should be fine, as bhenji mentiones, suiting for the King of Kings.


Vista [ PM ]
Re: thoof/incense sticks
January 29, 2012 12:39PM
In Bhai Sahib Bhai Randheer Singh jee's book Gurmat Bibek there is a paragraph on Thoof. Also in Bhai Jodh Singh jees book there is a sakhi on Thoof. Taksal and other Sampardas practice this too. There is nothing wrong in doing it.. It's optional to do it. However the focus should always be on GurbaNee in Akhand Paaths or Keertan.


harsh singh [ PM ]
Re: thoof/incense sticks
January 29, 2012 01:07PM
ਧੂਫ ਦੇ ਵਿਚ ਹਮੇਸ਼ਾ ਦੇਸੀ ਘਿਓ ਜਰੂਰੀ ਚਾਹੀਦਾ ਹੈ ਕਿਉਂਕਿ ਦੇਸੀ ਘਿਓ ਨਾਲ ਜੋ ਧੁਆਂ ਬਣਦਾ ਹੈ ਜਾਂ ਜੋ ਵਾਸ਼ਨਾ ਆਉਂਦੀ ਹੈ ਓਹ ਕੰਮਰੇ ਦੇ ਵਾਤਾਵਰਨ ਨੂੰ ਸ਼ੁਧ ਕਰਦੀ ਹੈ ,ਇਹ ਘਰ ਵਿਚਲਾ ਵਾਤਾਵਰਨ ਸ਼ੁਧ ਤੇ ਸਾਫ਼ ਕਰਨ ਦਾ ਇਕ ਪੁਰਾਣਾ ਵਿਗਿਆਨਿਕ ਤਰੀਕਾ ਹੈ |
ਭੁਲ ਚੂਕ ਮੁਆਫ਼ ਜੀ |


bhai [ PM ]
Re: thoof/incense sticks
January 29, 2012 01:40PM
when i was in india,in almost all the gurdwara sahibs i noticed that behind guru sahib in the corner of the darbar there would a glass mirror box that had a diva in it. Most of the people that did parkarma around guru sahib would also go to the candle and either would matha tek to it or they would put thier hands over the fire and then rub thier hands on thier face and do namskaar to the fire.

I just wanted to let everyone know this wat happens in india when you put a diva in the darbar, ppl treat it as a hindu thing.



outwardly [ PM ]
Re: thoof/incense sticks
January 29, 2012 01:52PM
I’m going to have to disagree with my fellow veers on this, sorry.

1) There is some research that shows incense contains strong pollutants, mutagens and carcinogens, which have been shown to have a direct link with upper respiratory tract cancers, lung cancer, heart disease as well as inflammatory disorders such as bronchitis/asthma.

2) It has also been shown that poorly ventilated environments where incense is burned can contain 40 times more carcinogens than environments where tobacco is smoked.

3) Some brands of incense can also have mind-altering effects, i.e. a drugging effect.

4) Also, I personally don’t think it smells that nice, so the arguement that it creates a nice aroma is more subjective.

5) I’m not sure about home-made incense, but we have to think before buying incense as we are not fully sure of its safety.

6) Where there is nasty smell, incense only overpowers it, it doesn’t cleanse/purify the air, so why not just sort out what’s causing the bad odour rather than disguising it?

7) Where naam is japped, surely that place certainly doesn’t need any incense

Vista jee, what did Bhai Sahib and Bhai Jodh Singh say about dhoof?

Please advise if I’m wrong on this.



sk [ PM ]
Re: thoof/incense sticks
January 29, 2012 02:03PM
Outwardly jee, Bhai Harsh Singh makes a very good suggestion of using gheo. Gheo, as stated in gurbani, is pavittar, a very important food in the Gursikhi tradition, and also doesn't have the negative effects you are talking about. It also smells amazing (in my opinion).


Sukhdeep Singh [ PM ]
Re: thoof/incense sticks
January 29, 2012 09:03PM
There is nothing wrong with scenting the room to put away bad odor. Not only does it provide a spiritual aroma its also gives satkar to Guru Sahib to put bad scent away from Maharaj Jis bir and shasters. However, as Gagan SIngh ( VIsta) mentioned the main focus during Paath should always be on Gurbani and not anything else.

According to Hindu tradition Ghee is the purest element for burning lamps. The Hindus are specific and are adamant in using ghee lamps as opposed to oil or other lamps. Their "logic" is devtas ( spritis) do not like bad smells. Some sampradas influenced by Hindumat make similar claims instead of saying devtas dont like bad smells they state Shaheed Singhs only like the scent of burning ghee.

The first time I smelled burning ghee lamps was in Hazoor Sahib. This scent seemed extremely bad too me. In the modern age there are more suitable and fragrant scents to use. SOme sampradas influenced by Hinduism are adamant in stating Ghee lamps ( jot) need to be lit during the whole akahnd paath. According to Sri AKal Takht using jot during an AKahnd paath is manmat.

ਅਖੰਡ ਪਾਠ ਜਾਂ ਹੋਰ ਕਿਸੇ ਤਰ੍ਹਾ ਦੇ ਪਾਠ ਵੇਲੇ ਕੁੰਭ , ਜੋਤ , ਨਲੀਏਰ ਆਦਿ ਰਖਣ ਜਾਂ ਨਾਲ ਨਾਲ ਜਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਵਿਚ ਕਿਸੇ ਹੋਰ ਬਾਣੀ
ਦਾ ਪਾਠ ਜਾਰੀ ਰਖਣਾ ਮਨਮਤ ਹੈ

If someone finds burning ghee to be a pleasent smell and feel like using during sehaj paath I see no harm, but if one is to have an akhand paath we shouldhonor AKal Takht Maryada and avoid using ghee lamps for the whole duration of the AKhand Paath. If the purpose of Ghee lamps it to put away bad smell or provide light in dark areas then what is the need to keep jot lit for 72 hours?



Amritvela [ PM ]
Re: thoof/incense sticks
January 30, 2012 10:12AM
Quote
Sukhdeep Singh
However, as Gagan SIngh ( VIsta) mentioned the main focus during Paath should always be on Gurbani and not anything else.

Sorry for side tracking the discussion but why are you suggesting Vista jee to be "Gagan Singh"?

Jodh singh ji in his memoir mentions that the purpose of jot (during nights) is to make sure the room is illuminated at all times. In broad daylight it isn't prescribed.
Doing japji sahib with akhandpaath- Jodh Singh ji mentions that both paaths simultaneously ensures akhandata. Not a breath is missed without the paath.

Quote

Doing japji sahib with akhandpaath- Jodh Singh ji mentions that both paaths simultaneously ensures akhandata. Not a breath is missed without the paath.

Sarblohi singhs in Amritsar never do it tho and even at Trust, though in Ludhiana smagam they tend to have simutaneous paath going on from a Senchi of SGGS jee(1 SGGS paah is also done from the senchi in 45 hours) and Sri Japji Sahib Jaap also.
The whole point of akhand paath is continous flow gurbani to the listeners and not just mere 'continous recitation' of gurbani, which is the reason used to complement JapJi sahib jaap with Akand Paath Sahib.

Quote
Sukhdeep Singh
ਅਖੰਡ ਪਾਠ ਜਾਂ ਹੋਰ ਕਿਸੇ ਤਰ੍ਹਾ ਦੇ ਪਾਠ ਵੇਲੇ ਕੁੰਭ , ਜੋਤ , ਨਲੀਏਰ ਆਦਿ ਰਖਣ ਜਾਂ ਨਾਲ ਨਾਲ ਜਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਵਿਚ ਕਿਸੇ ਹੋਰ ਬਾਣੀ
ਦਾ ਪਾਠ ਜਾਰੀ ਰਖਣਾ ਮਨਮਤ ਹੈ

While the panthic maryada is what it is. Jatha Singhs from Puratan times have and still keep a matka or ਕੁੰਭ in Sree Akhand Paath Sahib which stores water. This water is only used for Amrit Sinchaar.

Chota veer

Quote

While the panthic maryada is what it is. Jatha Singhs from Puratan times have and still keep a matka or ਕੁੰਭ in Sree Akhand Paath Sahib which stores water. This water is only used for Amrit Sinchaar.

The maryada of keeping water during an AKahnd Path originated from Sardar Jassa SIngh Ji, as you mentioned it was used for Amrit Sanchars. Originally the water used for AMrit came from sarovars or lakes where Gurmukhs would bathe. For example. in 1699 we know the water which was used came from the Sultej river where Gurmukhs would bathe during Amrit Vela .

However, the current practice of keeping water during Akhand Paths has RADICALLY changed .Out of mere ritualism people keep water during AKahnd Paths and give it to people ( non- abhilakhees) and tell them the water has become AMrit. I have been to many Gurdwara Sahibs where this is the practice. Panthic Maryada refers to this practice as manmat. Despite its vagueness and inconsistencies Panthic Maryada will always remain supreme in the panth.

Quote

The maryada of keeping water during an AKahnd Path originated from Sardar Jassa SIngh Ji, as you mentioned it was used for Amrit Sanchars. Originally the water used for AMrit came from sarovars or lakes where Gurmukhs would bathe. For example. in 1699 we know the water which was used came from the Sultej river where Gurmukhs would bathe during Amrit Vela .

Could you provide your reference both the points you have made above?

Chota veer

The practice of matka or ਕੁੰਭ in Sree Akhand Paath Sahib has pretty much vanished only few groups of Gursikhs are keeping this alive.

Bh Sukhdeep Singh, Bh Jasjeet Singh and Bh Kulbir Singh can you please give us better insight on this Panthic Maryada.

The maryada of keeping water during an AKahnd Path originated from Sardar Jassa SIngh Ji ( Giani Gian Singh, Panth Parkaash, ) , as you mentioned it was used for Amrit Sanchars. Originally the water used for AMrit came from sarovars or lakes where Gurmukhs would bathe. For example. in 1699 we know the water which was used came from the Sultej river where Gurmukhs would bathe during Amrit Vela ( Bhai SUkha SIngh Ji, Gurbilas) . Shaheed Bhai Mani Singh Ji also mentions water used for Amrit during Charan Khanda Di Pahaul came from Ramdas Sarovar during times of Sri Guru Ram Das Ji and SRi Guru Arjan Dev Ji ( Sikha Di Bhagat Mala). The water was always fresh when used for Amrit Sanchar.

There is nothing wrong with using water which has been stored during an Akahnd Path but to give it to families and classify it as Amrit is not in accordance to Puratan/panthic maryada instead its a practice meant to generate more revenue . I have nothing else to say on this matter.

Quote

The practice of matka or ਕੁੰਭ in Sree Akhand Paath Sahib has pretty much vanished only few groups of Gursikhs are keeping this alive

As previously mentioned the practice of matka or ਕੁੰਭ in Sree Akhand Paath Sahib before Amrit Sanchar originates from Sardar Jassa SIngh Ji . On the other hand the practice of keeping a ਕੁੰਭ, Jot, and toonph during an Akhand Paath originates from the modern day Taksal and is mentioned in Giani Gurbachans SIngh Jis book Gurbani Darpan. I have not come across this maryada in any other text. Mostly likely the practice has come from the nirmalas. Panthic Maryada labels this practice as manmat.

Sukhdeep Singh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The practice of matka or ਕੁੰਭ in Sree
> Akhand Paath Sahib has pretty much vanished only
> few groups of Gursikhs are keeping this alive
>
> As previously mentioned the practice of matka or
> ਕੁੰਭ in Sree Akhand Paath Sahib before
> Amrit Sanchar originates from Sardar Jassa SIngh
> Ji . On the other hand the practice of keeping a
> ਕੁੰਭ, Jot, and toonph during an Akhand
> Paath originates from the modern day Taksal and
> is mentioned in Giani Gurbachans SIngh Jis book
> Gurbani Darpan. I have not come across this
> maryada in any other text. Mostly likely the
> practice has come from the nirmalas. Panthic
> Maryada labels this practice as manmat.


What is wrong with keeping Jot? As long as it's not waved like the nangs do during Aarti, and it is kept as a means to read in case the electricity goes out. It's a very practical thing to have. To say an Akhand Paat Sahib is not complete unless you have Jot ( As some Taksali Singhs say) is not right either. However we cannot classify Jot as manmat.

Quote

What is wrong with keeping Jot? As long as it's not waved like the nangs do during Aarti, and it is kept as a means to read in case the electricity goes out. It's a very practical thing to have. To say an Akhand Paat Sahib is not complete unless you have Jot ( As some Taksali Singhs say) is not right either. However we cannot classify Jot as manmat.

If the aim is practicality in case if the electricity goes out, then there should be no need to have the jot during the day time. At night, if the Jot is kept on, as an emergency measure against electricity cut, then there is nothing wrong in having it.

Kulbir Singh

Quote

What is wrong with keeping Jot? As long as it's not waved like the nangs do during Aarti, and it is kept as a means to read in case the electricity goes out. It's a very practical thing to have. To say an Akhand Paat Sahib is not complete unless you have Jot ( As some Taksali Singhs say) is not right either. However we cannot classify Jot as manmat.

If the purpose of Jot is meant as a back up for electricity loss then why is it lit during the day? Nobody is claiming Jot cannot be lit during the night or lit temporarily to keep bad odour away along with fresh flowers for the satkar of Sri Guru Ji , but the practice of keeping it lit for 72 hours along with a pitcher of water, and toonph is an outward ritual and classified as MANMAT as per panthic maryada. During AKahnd Paath the only thing a Gursikh is concerned about keeping lit is his or her naam abhyiaas through the touchstone of Gurbani. Outward rituals have no room in Gurmat.
ਨਾਮੁ ਤੇਰੋ ਆਸਨੋ ਨਾਮੁ ਤੇਰੋ ਉਰਸਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਕੇਸਰੋ ਲੇ ਛਿਟਕਾਰੇ ॥
ਨਾਮੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਅੰਭੁਲਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਤੇਰੋ ਚੰਦਨੋ ਘਸਿ ਜਪੇ ਨਾਮੁ ਲੇ ਤੁਝਹਿ ਕਉ ਚਾਰੇ ॥੧॥
ਨਾਮੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਦੀਵਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਤੇਰੋ ਬਾਤੀ ਨਾਮੁ ਤੇਰੋ ਤੇਲੁ ਲੇ ਮਾਹਿ ਪਸਾਰੇ ॥
ਨਾਮ ਤੇਰੇ ਕੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਲਗਾਈ ਭਇਓ ਉਜਿਆਰੋ ਭਵਨ ਸਗਲਾਰੇ ॥੨॥

The modern practice of spraying cologne or perfume is also not in accordance to maryada. These items are very potent and should not be sprayed in Sri Guru Jis hazoori. Fresh flowers or toonph for a brief period is good enough.

Sukhdeep Singh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What is wrong with keeping Jot? As long as it's
> not waved like the nangs do during Aarti, and it
> is kept as a means to read in case the electricity
> goes out. It's a very practical thing to have. To
> say an Akhand Paat Sahib is not complete unless
> you have Jot ( As some Taksali Singhs say) is not
> right either. However we cannot classify Jot as
> manmat.
>
> If the purpose of Jot is meant as a back up for
> electricity loss then why is it lit during the
> day? Nobody is claiming Jot cannot be lit during
> the night or lit temporarily to keep bad odour
> away along with fresh flowers for the satkar of
> Sri Guru Ji , but the practice of keeping it lit
> for 72 hours along with a pitcher of water, and
> toonph is an outward ritual and classified as
> MANMAT as per panthic maryada. During AKahnd Paath
> the only thing a Gursikh is concerned about
> keeping lit is his or her naam abhyiaas through
> the touchstone of Gurbani. Outward rituals have no
> room in Gurmat.
> ਨਾਮੁ ਤੇਰੋ ਆਸਨੋ
> ਨਾਮੁ ਤੇਰੋ ਉਰਸਾ
> ਨਾਮੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਕੇਸਰੋ ਲੇ
> ਛਿਟਕਾਰੇ ॥
> ਨਾਮੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਅੰਭੁਲਾ
> ਨਾਮੁ ਤੇਰੋ ਚੰਦਨੋ
> ਘਸਿ ਜਪੇ ਨਾਮੁ ਲੇ
> ਤੁਝਹਿ ਕਉ ਚਾਰੇ ॥੧॥
> ਨਾਮੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਦੀਵਾ
> ਨਾਮੁ ਤੇਰੋ ਬਾਤੀ
> ਨਾਮੁ ਤੇਰੋ ਤੇਲੁ ਲੇ
> ਮਾਹਿ ਪਸਾਰੇ ॥
> ਨਾਮ ਤੇਰੇ ਕੀ ਜੋਤਿ
> ਲਗਾਈ ਭਇਓ ਉਜਿਆਰੋ
> ਭਵਨ ਸਗਲਾਰੇ ॥੨॥
>
> The modern practice of spraying cologne or perfume
> is also not in accordance to maryada. These items
> are very potent and should not be sprayed in Sri
> Guru Jis hazoori. Fresh flowers or toonph for a
> brief period is good enough.


Exactly. We shouldn't brush everything under the carpet as Manmat.

Quote

Exactly. We shouldn't brush everything under the carpet as Manmat.

Sorry perhaps Im not making myself clear. The practice of lighting toonph or jots temporarily for practical reasons is acceptable, but the practice of keeping water jug, reciting Sri JapJi Sahib along with akhand paath, lighting jots, and dhunph all together during an AKahnd Paath is classified as MANMAT according to panthic maryada.

Sukhdeep Singh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Exactly. We shouldn't brush everything under the
> carpet as Manmat.
>
> Sorry perhaps Im not making myself clear. The
> practice of lighting toonph or jots temporarily
> for practical reasons is acceptable, but the
> practice of keeping water jug, reciting Sri JapJi
> Sahib along with akhand paath, lighting jots, and
> dhunph all together during an AKahnd Paath is
> classified as MANMAT according to panthic maryada.


Lighting Jot for practical reasons is acceptable. We agree.

Now what's wrong with keeping Sri Jap Jee Sahib along with the Sri Akhand Paat Sahib. Even Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh had Sri Akhand Paat Sahibs done with Sri Jap Jee Sahib raul. Are you calling Bhai Sahib a follower of manmat? Which so called "Panthic" Maryada are you quoting here? The one that says eating Meat is allowed? That Nitnem is only 3 Bania? That Kes and not Keski is Kakkar?

There is nothing wrong with keeping Sri Jap Jee Sahib with Sri Akhand Paat Sahib, it should be kept, but if it is not the Sri Akhand Paat Sahib is not considered incomplete. Below is a picture from a Sri Akhand Paat Sahib held in Surrey, B.C at Bhai Bharpoor Singh's house in May 2011. Sri Jap Jee Sahib was kept alongside Sri Akhand Paat Sahib.




Below is another picture from Sri Akhand Paat Sahib in New Jersey, again Sri Jap Jee Sahib raul was kept.




Please provide reasons as to why this huge "manmat" should not be happening.

Singhs - calm down please - keep the pyar and sharda going between yourselves - the more WE discuss such issues the emotinally trodden we get and stop talking to each other AND this is dividiing us as we speak and has done so in the past.

There are a zillion things wrong with the current rehat marayda - why cannot we as sangat put our heads together and take them to Akal Takht ?

I thought i'd mention this previous thread about Japji Sahib rauls during Akhand Paths:

http://gurmatbibek.com/forum/read.php?3,240

Quote

Lighting Jot for practical reasons is acceptable. We agree.

Now what's wrong with keeping Sri Jap Jee Sahib along with the Sri Akhand Paat Sahib. Even Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh had Sri Akhand Paat Sahibs done with Sri Jap Jee Sahib raul. Are you calling Bhai Sahib a follower of manmat? Which so called "Panthic" Maryada are you quoting here? The one that says eating Meat is allowed? That Nitnem is only 3 Bania? That Kes and not Keski is Kakkar?
There is nothing wrong with keeping Sri Jap Jee Sahib with Sri Akhand Paat Sahib, it should be kept, but if it is not the Sri Akhand Paat Sahib is not considered incomplete. Below is a picture from a Sri Akhand Paat Sahib held in Surrey, B.C at Bhai Bharpoor Singh's house in May 2011. Sri Jap Jee Sahib was kept alongside Sri Akhand Paat Sahib.

Whats wrong with reciting Sri JapJi Sahib along with the Sri Akhand Paat Sahib? First off the panth has labeled it as wrong ( manmat)? Panth represents the GUru! Where does the panthic maryada say its wrong to wear keski or keep vegetarian diet. The maryada was made to keep unity amongst the different Sikh groups and at the same time its main goal was to promote the worship of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Most puratan rehatnamey only mention 2 banis for morning nitnem should we start questioning these rehatnamey as well?

Could you prove solid proof that Bhai Sahib kept this maryada during Akhand Paaths. There might be some isolated incidences but for the most part it was not a practice the Jatha kept. Bhai Sahib mentions in Rangle Sajjan how there was a SIngh by the name of Bhai Sunder Singh Ji. Bhai Sunder Singh was one of the most proficient pathis he was also heavily influenced by the Nirnamals. Most likely those isolated incidences where Singhs would recite Sri JapJi Sahib along with an AKahnd Path was influenced by Bhai Sunder SIngh who would often supervise the Akahnd Paaths since he was the most fluent. One thing is for sure Bhai Sahib would have never advocated this practice at the time the Panth spoke out against it. If it was a practice which was common during Bhai Sahibs time then most Jatha Singhs today would have continued it. I have been been to many Akhand Path smagams and never seen this practice in place. No offense to BC Singhs but what goes on there cant be classified as maryada promoted by the Jatha. In the picture you provided the SIngh reciting Sri JapJi Sahib is not a Jatha Singh I think .he is a Taksali SIngh and thus influencing this maryada upon Jatha SInghs similar to the way you are . In regards to the picture In New Jersey I have not been in this area so I cant comment.

Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is King. During AKhand Paath full attention should be on king who is speaking to the sangat. As previously mentioned Panthic Maraydas main intention is to bring people in the lap of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji this is why they have spoken out against these ritualistic akhand paths. Please provide a valid reason why we need to speak ahead of the King. Also please provide a historical reference for this man made maryada. If Sri Guru Ji did not initiate this practice then why should we?

this crossed my mind yesterday...In India, there can a lot of flies at times ecspecially in rural areas,as we know they love to sit on feaces and filth....so obviously we dont want them to be fly over and sit on Saroop of Sri Guru Granth Sahib and also annoy the paathi Singh/Singhni
, could Gursikhs is the past used the toonph to keep these flies away?(or does it even work?)

Chota veer

As these topics were discussed and concluded many times before so Daas don’t see any benefit for arguing; just for clarification the second picture of Sri Akhand Paath Sahib in New Jersey is of Daas da Gareebkhana and this Sri Akhand Paath Sahib jee was held in July of last year. Waheguru! a memorable one, brought back good memories and missing a lot.

I think Piyare Bhai G Singh jee got wrong impression as Sri Jap Jee Sahib Raul from Singh jee who is reading at right side of the picture. Actually Singh Jee was reading along from Larrivaar Senchee silently with some Bania of Sri Akhand Paath Sahib for his benefit of Larrivaar reading Sodhai but not Sri Jap Jee Sahib Raul.

Daas would say either way is fine whether do Sri Jap Jee Sahib alongside or not but we should be concentrating on the Gurbani being recited by Paathi Singh. Maryada of Larrivaar Saroop read by Rehatvaan and fluent Paathi Singhs should be kept intact, other things does not benefit if one does not follow this Maryada.

With Regards,
Jasjit Singh

To be honest, I have never understood the logic behind doing Siri Jap jee Sahib Paath when Paath from Siri Guru Granth Sahib jee is going on. It has been a tradition within Jatha to never hold a parallel Samagam if Siri Akhand Paath Sahib is going on; then I don't understand how reading Siri Jap jee Sahib, while Siri Akhand Paath Sahib is going on, is beneficial.

Siri Akhand Paath Sahib means Shahe-Shahanshah Siri Guru Granth Sahib jee is talking. Why should we do anything else, when Guru Sahib is talking? When Siri Akhand Paath Sahib is going on, our duty should be to listen to Maharaj jee's Paath. Why should someone sit in Maharaj jee's Darbar and instead of listening to Siri Akhand Paath Sahib, do Siri Jap jee Sahib or any other Paath?

In the early days of the Jatha, Raul of Siri Jap jee Sahib was done sometimes but in the later years this practice lessened; perhaps because Akalis (good Akalis) of that time decided that this was not a good practice.

With respect to water in Kumbh, there is no doubt that the water absorbs Gurbani vibrations and using this water for Amrit Sinchaar is a great idea but such thought that if Kumbh is not kept, then Siri Akhand Paath Sahib Samagam remains deficient, is totally Manmatt.

Dhoop is lightened for practical reasons i.e. to make the atmosphere pleasant but it's not a requirement. We seldom use it in our Samagams here.

Guru Sahib knows better.

Kulbir Singh

Quote

this crossed my mind yesterday...In India, there can a lot of flies at times ecspecially in rural areas,as we know they love to sit on feaces and filth....so obviously we dont want them to be fly over and sit on Saroop of Sri Guru Granth Sahib and also annoy the paathi Singh/Singhni
, could Gursikhs is the past used the toonph to keep these flies away?(or does it even work?)

Chota veer,
~*Chatrik*~

Awhile back I attended an Akhand Path at one of the local Gurdwara Sahibs. Unfortunately, the Gurdwara Sahib did not have sanitary high on their list. The darbar sahib was swarming from flies due to the bad smell. The poor granthi had flies coming all his face, and flies were coming all over Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Flies are attracted to bad odor and had the sevadars kept the darbar sahib clean this would have not been an issue. Toonph has an advantage that it gives a good scent and keeps flies away, but when lit for too long it can be a distraction for those attending to listen to the Akhand Path with an attentive mind .

Sukhdeep Singh the Singh reading in the first picture is the son of Bhai Bharpoor Singh not some taksali singh like you claimed. During this Akhand Paat Sahib I myself did raul from the Pothi of Jap Jee Sahib. Stop maligning the name of Bhai Sunder Singh. If you read Unditti Dunia you will find reference to Bhai Sahib conducting Akhand Paat Sahibs with Jap Jee Sahib raul. You label everything as manmat if it doesn't fit your version of Sikhi. I have no problems with Akhand Paat Sahibs being done without Jap Jee Sahib, but saying it is manmat if it kept is not right either. I have talked to a few Jatha Singhs who say Jap Jee Sahib used to be kept and it should be kept today as well.


Bhai Jasjit Singh my apologies for assuming it was Jap Jee Sahib Paat.

Gagan Singh Jeeo,

Please provide the exact quote in which BHai Sahib supports this man-made maryada. Bhai Sahib has wrote extensively on Gurmat Maryada and I have never heard him once say anything about reciting Sri JapJi Sahib along with Sri Akhand Path. He has written about the greatness of Sri Japji Sahib in "Gurmat bibek" but he does not mention anything about reciting this bani with an akhand path . If it was important wouldnt he mention it? In the book Gurmat Parkash he has a whole section about Sri Akhand Path maryada but yet there is no mention of jot, khub, and Sri JapJi Sahib with Sri AKahnd Path. Why is this the case? Kindly tell us. Most likely these isolated events where this maryada took place occured through the influence of Mahant Sunder SIngh Ji who was heavily influenced by Nirmalas similar to you.

This post is now shifting from incense sticks to Daang, Lathi and Soti.

Where is the "Bibek Daan" here ? Let's talk it out in gentle gursikh manner.

Bhul Chuk Maaf.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa,
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh.

Singho you are arguing over toof jyot japji sahib. Pita ji is being desecrated beadbi insulted and yet i bet most of you havent even signed the online petition.

get back to basics get the satkaar back for Guru Ji. Guru ji is being thrown in Wells Angs torn and your arguing over wether there should be water ot toof. How many have you took a stand on protecting your guru?

we need to be together ekta not figthing AKJ believes this Taksal This etc, We are children of the same Guru. Our ultimate Aim should be satkkar of Guru Ji.

Guru jis watching, you can do as much bani simran as you want but if you have no stand for the satkaar of your guru then whats the point?

singho guru ka payaro ive seen people act in public how much they love there parents do stuff for them in public so moorakhs like me will think " wow he really does alot for his parents" but at home he treats them like dirt.

lets not do the same thing here act as if the marayada we follow is the right one and everyone will love you but behind closed doors there is beadbi and no satkaar.

apolgise if i have said anything wrong or hurt any ones feelings dass isnt a writer or a speaker but am a passioate indvidual who wants the king of world Dhan Guru Granth Sahib treated and respected like the true lord he is.

the link to the petition is

[www.change.org]


442 signatures at the moment. is there really only 442 people that care what happens.

lets not go to durgah and Guru Ji Asks what was you doing when i was being dis repected, what was you doing when i was being torn from my angs, what was you doing when i was being rolled in the dirt. i dont think his gonna be pleased if we answer we was discussing wether we should have jyot or toof etc. Jago singho this is reality dont close your eyes and think Akajl Takhat or SGPC will sort it. We have to show them how concerned we are for them to open there eyes to this.

Tag singh jeeo -100% spot on - u hit the nail on the head on the coffin and buried it - great post.
BTW i signed it ages ago.

Thing is when we start predicting - pre meditating - we get lost we do analysis and cause paralysis - and it's never in line with Sikhe principles.


I was talking to someone clearing the rubbish on a street in london and i advised i can't belive the amount cigraatee bits in london why can't people just put it in the bin - i said don't you get frustrated on picking up again and again everywhere. His reply - was i don't look back son i just pick up sh*t that's in front of me and carry on. Same principle as Tag Singh we all are responsible for far better aims and obejctives to achieve for the panth everyday than simple dhoof bati.

Tag SIngh Jeeo,

SIgning that petition is not going to change anything. Beadbi occurs because people do not regards Sri Guru Ji as King of Kings. People can only know Sri Guru Ji is King if Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is given highest respect during AKhand Paths and other programs. The pure practice of AKhand Path has been forgotten and been replace by ritualistic Pakhand Paths. The panth ( not just me)has regarded such rituals as MANMAT(ਅਖੰਡ ਪਾਠ ਜਾਂ ਹੋਰ ਕਿਸੇ ਤਰ੍ਹਾ ਦੇ ਪਾਠ ਵੇਲੇ ਕੁੰਭ , ਜੋਤ , ਨਲੀਏਰ ਆਦਿ ਰਖਣ ਜਾਂ ਨਾਲ ਨਾਲ ਜਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਵਿਚ ਕਿਸੇ ਹੋਰ ਬਾਣੀ
ਦਾ ਪਾਠ ਜਾਰੀ ਰਖਣਾ ਮਨਮਤ ਹੈ, Panthic maryada) yet people dont seem to be bothered by the Hukums of the panth. How will we achieve anything as a panth if people ignore the rehatnama which is meant to bound us a community. Bibekee Singhs regard Panth as the GUru, and they always obey panthic hukums which are backed up by Gurmat Bibek is not about just eating from so and so Bibek is about keeping Gurmat in all our practices.

I have asked two question numerous times and yet nobody has given an answer. If people practice something and they cannot provide an answer for the practice then its plain and simple the practice is a blind ritual they follow. I will ask one more time if nobody gives a solid answer I feel no need to keep discussing the issue anymore.

1.Since when has Sri JapJi Sahib been recited along with AKhand Paths. Please provide the historical reference which mentions this maryada existed in the past?
2. What is the purpose behind reciting Sri Japji Sahib along with Sri AKhand Path.

The truth is this practice originates from Baba Bishan Singh who was a nirmala . He taught it to Sant Sunder Singh Ji, who in return taught it to Giani Gurbachan Singh JI. The pracitce never existed during the times of Guru Sahiban and the panthic scholars have regarded the practice as MANMAT. If some deras like to practice this maryada fair enough but its not panthic maryada to do so.

Sukhdeep Singh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Tag SIngh Jeeo,
>
> SIgning that petition is not going to change
> anything.


There is no way anyone you or i or anyone know what the outcome will be Stop Predicating- someone ur sikh fellow is doing something at least support it!!

> I have asked two question numerous times and yet
> nobody has given an answer. If people practice
> something and they cannot provide an answer for
> the practice then its plain and simple the
> practice is a blind ritual they follow. I will ask
> one more time if nobody gives a solid answer I
> feel no need to keep discussing the issue
> anymore.
>
> 1.Since when has Sri JapJi Sahib been recited
> along with AKhand Paths. Please provide the
> historical reference which mentions this maryada
> existed in the past?

there is no way of knowing as we already know

> 2. What is the purpose behind reciting Sri Japji
> Sahib along with Sri AKhand Path.

Some senior singhs where i have seen it practised swear by Japji sahib being recited at the same time as akand path actually corrects for mistakes or does shuddai - made by the paathee doing paath of SGGS during an akand paath. This is what I have heard and akj singhs in the UK did practice this and were of the same notion as far as I know.



> The truth is this practice originates from Baba
> Bishan Singh who was a nirmala . He taught it to
> Sant Sunder Singh Ji, who in return taught it to
> Giani Gurbachan Singh JI. The pracitce never
> existed during the times of Guru Sahiban and the
> panthic scholars have regarded the practice as
> MANMAT. If some deras like to practice this
> maryada fair enough but its not panthic maryada to
> do so.


Why is it MANMAT -- WHAT IS MANMAT Bhai Sahib jeeo -- I thought anything to do with following the mind is MANMAT not doing extra paath??

ਜਿਥੈ ਬੋਲਣਿ ਹਾਰੀਐ ਤਿਥੈ ਚੰਗੀ ਚੁਪ ॥੨॥