Bibian As Panj Pyaarah

Are Bibian allowed as Panj Pyaray? I've always thought they were, as I've seen so a couple of times. Although it's not common, and in most Amrit Sanchaars you would only see Singhs. So recently, when talking to another Gursikh about this issue, this is the response I got.

"No they can't! Bhai Sahibs time it wasn't allowed. Bau Mal Singh Ji said they can only be allowed if there is no gurmukh singh avaliable."

I was quite surprised by this! I've never heard such things. So...this has raised another concern in my mind, although I don't doubt or go against Bau Mal Singh Ji.

Can someone please verify this? Provide some reference for this, if it's true. And also, provide some clarification as to if Bibian are allowed to be one of the Panj Paray during an Amrit Sanchaar.

I was pretty shocked to hear this!

Vaaheguru Jee Kaa Khalsaa Vaaheguru Jee Kee Fatehh!

this is a controversial topic...that will bear no friut for anyone reading this topic b/c it will start a heated debate between different jathebandis

Yes, they can. I am 100% certain of this. Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh was okay with it - a bibi once did panj seva, and there must have been many Singhs available.

There is no definite mention in any reliable resource that says or 'clarifies' the generally accepted discriminatory idea which disallows Sikh women to take part in Khalsa ceremonial services. Adding on, all the life tasks that are to be carried out daily by Sikhs as a whole are the same for both genders. This includes understanding the unique Sikh identity and the responsibilities associated with that. If the bottom foundation is comparatively equal on both sides, then I do not see a logic in proclaiming that Sikh women are not to perform ceremonial services. I, however, do see a connection with the backward Indian or Punjabi culture with the aforementioned theory, because women are generally are banned from doing certain things in the Indian hemisphere. Not only that, Sikhs hailing from such abusive backgrounds such as the 'Punjabi race' believe the Sikh religion to be an outcome of Punjabi 'values', norms, and the culturally accepted 'attributes' associated it. They, therefore see anything outside of this circle to be 'deviant'.

Just as a how glass breaks when smashed onto hard concrete, the Punjabi beliefs that have been 'forced into' the Sikh religion also need to become shattered. But, you see, this glass is very strong. Therefore, it will take hard effort and loads of dedication in order to make Sikhs of the Punjabi background realize that Sikhism is unique and all our Gurus protested and fought against these cultural discriminations.


As for the different sects or organizations and their known charismatic, socially and culturally moral leaders and/or members are concerned, no doubt some of their ideas or beliefs were associated with the Indian subcontinent beliefs.

At the end of the day, the Sikhs need to ask themselves this question: is the Amrit Sanchaar of less value, and is it less of an Amrit, or is it less Shakti in Amrit, if Singhnis do seva? What difference does it make? Are Sikh aurtaan not committed in their tasks to fulfill the necessary requirements with being a Sikh?

There's no restriction on Bibiaan doing Sewa in Punj Pyare but there is no need to argue over this because some Sikh Jathebandis don't support this idea. The best thing is to agree to disagree on this one. This topic has been discussed many times before, so let's not debate on this again.

As far as what Bau jee said, it's hard to verify it. He must have said something many decades ago and by the time it reached us, it must have changed a bit. As per Gurmat, it does not seem right to say that if Singhs are not available, then Bibiaan can otherwise not.

Kulbir Singh

First and foremost the criteria for Panj Pyaarey seva of giving Amrit Naam is Naam Kamayee and obedience to GUru Sahibs Hukums/rehats. Sri GUru Nanak Dev Ji was given the status ( pad) of SatGuru because of his devoted obedience to WaaheGuru Jio. In rehatnamey, 10th Nanak Sri GUru Gobind Singh Ji says I will give my practicing SIkh the status of SatGuru. Meaning those people ( 5 Gurmukhs) who follow rehat can serve as Panj Pyaarey seva and give Amrit- Naam. THis is a plain and simple system there is no reason to doubt it or debate about it.

Khalsa jio,

Waheguru Ji ka khalsa, Waheguru Ji ki Fateh

Daas don’t understand why we even need to think about this subject. Panj Piyare are available since Dasam Patshah’s Sachkhand Gaman and they will be available until the world lives. Daas is not in favor of mix n match of gender for Panj seva, however, if all five bibiyan like of mata Bhaag Kaur jee are in Panj di seva then who can dare to stop them from conducting an Amrit Sanchaar. As far as Akhand Kirtani Jatha is concerned Daas asked many Singhs including Bhai Sahib’s companion about this and they all say the same thing that no Bibi jee ever done seva of Panj in Jatha. Daas would just stay with this tradition.

With Regards,
Daas

JASJIT SINGH Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Khalsa jio,
>
> Waheguru Ji ka khalsa, Waheguru Ji ki Fateh
>
> Daas don’t understand why we even need to think
> about this subject. Panj Piyare are available
> since Dasam Patshah’s Sachkhand Gaman and they
> will be available until the world lives. Daas is
> not in favor of mix n match of gender for Panj
> seva, however, if all five bibiyan like of mata
> Bhaag Kaur jee are in Panj di seva then who can
> dare to stop them from conducting an Amrit
> Sanchaar. As far Akhand Kirtani Jatha is concerned
> Daas asked many Singhs including Bhai Sahib’s
> companion about this and they all say the same
> thing that no Bibi jee ever done seva of Panj in
> Jatha. Daas would just stay with this tradition.
>
>
> With Regards,
> Daas


Bhai Sahib, the practice of women doing Panj Pyaarey was probably not displayed publically in those day in order to avoid any interests that conflcit with the Sri Akal Takht of that time. As AKJ does not do things that can can cause disorder in Sri Akal Takht. However, in the 21st century it is recongized by Sri Akal Takht that women are equal with men when it comes to Guru Sahibs seva.

I dont understand why we need to make things so complicating when selecting Panj Pyaarey? Whether there is 2 males and 3 females, 4 males and 1 female is irrelevant. THere can be a mix of gender as gender plays no role in Panj Pyaarey. One thing we must clearly understand is there is no difference between PanjPyaarey and Parmeshar ( GUru Sahib).

ਇਕੁ ਸਿਖ ਦੁਇ ਸਾਧ ਸੰਗੁ ਪੰਜੀਂ ਪਰਮੇਸਰੁ॥
One is a Sikh, two the Congregation and in five resides God.
- Bhai Gurdas Ji

Bhai Gurdas Ji mentions Guru Sahib was the first to receive the blessings of Naam.

ਪਹਿਲਾਂ ਬਾਬੇ ਪਾਯਾ ਬਖਸੁ ਦਰਿ ਪਿਛੋ ਦੇ ਫਿਰਿ ਘਾਲ ਕਮਾਈ

Bhai Randhir Singh Ji also states when getting the blessing of Naam there became no difference between WaaheGuru and Guru Sahib.

ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਦਰਗਾਹੋਂ ਦੂਹਰਾ ਨਦਰਿ-ਮਿਹਰੰਮਤੀ ਪਰਤਾਪ ਲੈ ਕੇ ਆਏ ਕਿ ਇਕ ਤਾਂ ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਾਕ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਖੁਦ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਸੇਤੀ ਸਾਖਸ਼ਾਤ ਅਭੇਦ ਹੋਏ, ਦੂਜੇ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਨੂੰ ਹੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਧਾਰਨ ਕਰ ਕੇ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਪਾਸੋਂ ਹੀ ਇਹ ਗੁਰ-ਮੰਤਰਾਵੀ ਸਚੀ ਦਾਤਿ ਇਲਾਹੀ ਪਾਈ॥

Meaning: Guru Nanak Sahib received two gifts from WaaheGurus Dargah. Firstly , GUru Nanak Sahib became no different then WaaheGuru and he received his position of True Guru. Secondly, after Guru Nanak Sahib became true Guru; WaaheGuru gave Guru Nanak Sahib Gurmantar Naam.


So Guru Nanak Sahib Ji was given blessings to give Amrit-naam as previous avtaars failed to do so. Previous avtaars like Shankara, Ramanand, Gorak, and Muhammad did not get the blessing of giving Amrit-Naam as they got caught in ego,and did not obey the Hukums of Akal Purakh Ji.

ਸਭ ਤੇ ਅਪਨਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਾਯੋ ॥ ਸਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਾਹੂੰ ਨ ਦ੍ਰਿੜਾਯੋ ॥੨੭॥
ਸਭ ਅਪਨੀ ਅਪਨੀ ਉਰਝਾਨਾ ॥ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਕਾਹੂ ਨ ਪਛਾਨਾ ॥
- Bachitar Natak

Every previous avtar had the people utter his name and did not give True Name of the Lord with firmness to anyone.
Everyone placed his own interest first and foremost and did not comprehend the Supreme Brahman.

Only in the House of Nanak can one get Naam . In the 21st century, Amrit Naam is received from Rehatvan Panj Pyaarey.


ਮੇਰੋ ਘਰ ਜੋ ਆਇਆ, ਗੁਰਸ਼ਬਦਨ ਸਿਉ ਹੇਤ, ਗੁਰ ਸਿਖਯਾ ਸੁਣਿ ਧਾਰੀਏ, ਰਹਿਤ ਰਹਹਿ ਸੁਚੇਤ॥

ਮੈ ਬਖਸ਼ੇਗਾ ਪਾਰ ਕਰਿ ਉਸ ਪਦ ਦਾਤਾ ਆਪ, ਸ਼ੰਕਰ ਦੱਤ ਰਾਮਾਨੁਜ ਗੋਰਖ ਮੁੰਹਮਦ ਨ ਥਾਪ॥
- Sau Sakhi ( Bhai Sahib Singh Ji rehatnamey
When coming to my house ( House of GUru Nanak/Gurmat) love Gurshabad. Listen to my
teachings of living a vigilant according to the GUrus instructions ( rehat). I will forgive a person
of all shortcomings and give them my position ( pad) of SatGuru which previous avtaars like Shankara, Ramanad, Gorak ,and Muhmmand could not even reach.

Meaning previous avtaars who did not listen to WaaheGurus teachings could not get the blessing of giving Naam, but
Dasmi Paatshah said he will give these blessings to the Gurmukhs who follow his word. Meaning those 5 Gurmukhs
who follow rehat will given the pad of SatGuru and they alone can give Naam as there is no difference between them and WaaheGuru/Guru. Gender is of no importance nor does it have any relevance in selecting RehatVan Gurmukhs.
ਰਹਿਤ ਪਿਆਰੀ ਮੁਝ ਕਉ ਸਿਖ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਨਾਹਿ ।
Those that follow Rehat are my beloved Sikhs ( pyaarey)
Bhai Desa Singh Ji-


While those who dress like Gursikhs but dont rehat are not the loved ( pyaarey) ones instead they are impostors.
ਹਮਾਰੇ ਕੋ ਭੇਖ ਬਰਣ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਨਹੀ, ਰਹਨੀ ਪਿਆਰੀ ਹੈ
Bhai Daya Singh Ji _


So how in the world can we tell our Gurmukh sisters who look like Gursikhs on the outside day and night and live like Gurmukhs in the inside day and night that they cannot do Seva. Guru Sahib has already said Khalsa is my SatGuru

ਖ਼ਾਲਸਾ ਮੇਰੋ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪੂਰਾ ॥

Khalsa is beyond gender, and Khalsa is Sant and Siphai. If Women cant be Panj Pyaarey then they are half Sikhs, and are different then SatGuru Gobind Singh Ji. Guru Sahib says there is no difference between me and my beloved.We no longer live in the Pind and we have to treat our Sisters as Divine Guru Gobind Singh Ji lives in them. If you want to wipe
out a nation then attack its women. It is Gods truth that Guru Gobind Singh Ji lives in his Gurmukh. If we doubt this then we are not Gursikhs.

Jaspreet Singh Jee

The photo you have posted is from a 3HO amrit sanchaar if Im not mistaken.

It's scary enough to see that photos are being taken inside an amrit sanchaar, and if I'm not mistaken, one of the bibian is holding a gutka sahib to recite one of the 5 baaniaan.

That's a little strange in itself.

So I personally have no valued opinion on the said matter, but I would not use such a photo to support one side of the argument by any means

Khima Karni

Vaheguroo

As I mentioned in my post, I did not start this topic to debate on the issue. I've always believed that Bibian were allowed in Panj Pyaray. The only reason I brought this up was to ask where the above stated sentence about what Bau Mal Singh Ji said was correct.

I was not aware that this was a controversial issue. I've personally never come across anyone who disagreed with me, until this recent discussion. It was that one statement that surprised me, and therefore I was only asking for clarification on this one statement.

Quote
JaspreetSingh
At the end of the day, the Sikhs need to ask themselves this question: is the Amrit Sanchaar of less value, and is it less of an Amrit, or is it less Shakti in Amrit, if Singhnis do seva? What difference does it make? Are Sikh aurtaan not committed in their tasks to fulfill the necessary requirements with being a Sikh?

I don't know enough to provide satisfying answers to these questions. I wasn't questioning why Bibian weren't allowed. I just wanted to know whether the statement was correct.

Vaaheguru Jee Kaa Khalsaa Vaaheguru Jee Kee Fatehh!

Upkaar Singh, I did not post the picture to justify whether it was truly an Amrit Sanchaar or not. All I was trying to say was that there are no different Maryadas for males and females, and the sevas can be equally performed by both parties, whether it is langar, degh, doing Parkaash-Sukhaasan, Chaur Sahib, and most importantly, taking an active role in the Punj seva.

kaurs4, Bau Mal Singh Ji may have said that as he saw fit for that time being, because there were a lot more things to fix up within the Panth before the Panth would've started to give women an equal status as men. And even today, there are so many twisted beliefs that have entered the minds of the Sikhs, one of the biggest are doing pad-ched of Gurbaani, believing that Sikh women do not need to wear Dastaar, and others. I believe before Singhnis are given Punj Seva, the Panth needs to be brought back to the True Gurmat, because what the situation is right now, such a decision could stir up controversies. I am not against for Bibian to do Punj Seva, I am just saying that the Panth is not yet ready to accept that because there are already so many issues that need to be solved before the Panth Khalsa comes back to do True Gurmat Guru Sahib blessed us with us.

Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Vaheguru Ji Ki Fatheh

In Bhai Sahib's small book called "Amrit Ke Hai?". Under the chapter, 'Amrit Chakauone Dee Gurmat Vidhi' , while explaining the method preparing for Amrit Sanchar to Bhai Kartar Singh. Bhai Sahib said this clearly said in his own words :

"੧.ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਦੀ ਹਜ਼ੂਰੀ ਵਿਚ ਘਟੋ ਘਟ ਛੇ ਗੁਰਮੁਖ ਸਿੰਘਾ ਦੀ ਲੋੜ ਪੇਂਦੀ ਹੈ , ਜਿਨ੍ਹਾ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ ਅਭਿਯਾਸੀ , ਨਾਮ ਦੇ ਰਸੀਏ, ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਦੇ ਪ੍ਰੇਮੀ , ਨਿਤਨੇਮੀ ਅਤੇ ਗੁਰਮਤ ਰਹਿਤ ਵਿਚ ਪੱਕੇ ਹੋਣਾ ਜ਼ਰੂਰੀ ਹੈ | ਓਨ੍ਹਾ ਵਿਚੋ ਕੋਈ ਇਕ ਵੀ ਕੁਰਹਿਤੀਆ ਨਾ ਹੋਵੇ | ਐਥੋ ਤਕ ਕਿ ਅੰਗ-ਹੀਨ ਵੀ ਨਾ ਹੋਵੇ |"

-Period-
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Chota veer

You have to understand what the word 'Singh' really means, piyasi chatrik jio. The word 'Singh' can refer to Singhnis as well. For example, if we are to easy to say "Singhs wake up at Amritvela, Singhs read lots of Baani, Singhs wear Kakaars", does this exclude female Sikhs? From what I have learned, the word 'Singh' can be used interchangeably to mean Singhnis too.

You are misintrepreting Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh ji's writing.

Also, now this topic has gone kind of off-topic, or is starting to.

Also, if i'm not mistaken, in the 3HO photograph the Khandaa isn't Sarbloh

KaramvirSingh jio, firstly I don't understand why there was a photographer hired inside an "Amrit Sanchaar"(if u want to consider it one), but oh well, everything happens for a reason. May Guruji did that to show the nonsense, or in other the anti-Gurmat practices that happen in the name of Sikhi. Whoever wants to consider to 3HO a part of the Khalsa fold, can do so at their own rate. And thanks for pointing that out. I also noticed it was not Sarbloh, but didn't really want to say that anything about it, because what do you expect from them anyways? It's no surprise to me. But the topic here is not to discuss what or what not the 3HOs do. I think at this point we all know what they do.

What Bhai Sahib has said is pretty much very clear. He could have just said, "ਘਟੋ ਘਟ ਛੇ ਗੁਰਮੁਖ ਦੀ ਲੋੜ ਪੇਂਦੀ ਹੈ" , but he didn't.

Quote
Jaspreet Singh
The word 'Singh' can refer to Singhnis as well.

The female pluaral noun, 'Singhnia' is already there. To suggest the the male plural noun, 'Singha' also refers to Bibian doesn't seem to make sense to me. Please do prove your case that Bhai Sahib meant it otherwise. As the writings seem to make it very clear.
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AKJ in India has always had Singhs doing seva , as this has been the tradition from Guru Sahibs time. Personally I have only seen this idea being popularized by gursikhs from the west not puratan gurmukhs of the Jatha in India.

Chota veer