concept of NAAu and NAAMu in Gurbanee

One can see that in Gurbanee these two words NAAu and NAAMu are very important .
It is observed that we hardly make any distinction between NAAu and NAAMu whereas
a close observation and Grammatical considerations of these two words reflects a different
understanding about their reference meanings.

For understanding the distinction between NAAu and NAAMu one can see the defintion of
the word NOUN.
NOUN is reference for NAME for any SINGLE person ,place or thing.For NOUN is refered in Gurbanee
as NAAu..This NOUN can be COMMON or PROPER NOUN .

But the NAAMu in Gurbanee is not to refer as NAME. Although NAAMu is SINGULAR as Masculine Gender
A close observation reveals that NAAMu is reference for SINGLE COLLECTIVE NOUN.
This COLLECTIVE characteristic of NAAMu as NOUN makes this most imp[ortant word in Gurbanee.

One also finds that in Gurbanee the words are according to Class and Number .
NOUN Word NAAu is SINGULAR and its PLURAL is refered as NAAV
COLLECTIVE NOUN wordNAAMu is SINGULAR and its PLURAL is NAAM

The above consideration is important for correct understanding of the true meanings of Gurbanee
messages.It is observed tha general interpretation of Gurbanee is based as per Gender consideration of the words
but one is required to understand Gurbanee in Masculine Gender of the words.
In the above context Gurbanee words Shoyld be considered as SINGULAR or PLURAL to get the true meanings of Gurbanee
words.
My personal observation is that by far we have not paid any attention to COLLECTIVE NOUN as NAAMu and one is given to understand
the meaning of NAAMu aas NAME which is NAAu.

Bhul Chuk Maaf

Daas

Prakash.S.Bagga

Could you please post some Gurbani Pankitis to prove your point of diffierence between Naam and Naao?

Kulbir Singh

In Gurbanee one can make observations for understanding the difference between NAAu and NAAMu
All NOUN words (SINGLE NUMBER) like HARi,RAAMu ,EKANKAARu ,NIRANKAARu,GOBINDu..
GOPALu,JAGDEESARu,JAGGANAATHu ..........are NAAu

Whereas NAAMu is refered to A COOLECTIVE NOUN for a pair of two Single Noun words like
......... ..... ..........

....

It can be observed that only Single Pair of word is being refered as NAAMu
In this context the use of pair is very common in Gurbanee.

Bhul Chuk Maaf

Daas

Prakash.S.Bagga

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Prakash S Bagga jee, I request again, please provide some Gurbani backup to make your point clear.

Kulbir Singh

A Quote from Gurbanee can be considered as

ਪਉੜੀ ॥ ਨਾਉ ਤੇਰਾ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ ਹੈ ਨਾਇ ਲਇਐ ਨਰਕਿ ਨ ਜਾਈਐ pp465SGGSji

Here one can see that the word NIRANKAARu is being refered as NAAu.

Can the word NIRANKAARu which is SINGULAR be taken as NAAMu?

Bhul Chuk Maaf

Daas

Prakash.S.Bagga

Quote

Here one can see that the word NIRANKAARu is being refered as NAAu

Actually, it's the other way around. Naao is being referred to as Nirankaar which means that the original form of Naam is Nirankaar i.e. Nirgun i.e. Aprampar of Trai-Gunns. It's not Nirankaar who is being referred to as Naam but Naam is being referred to as Nirankaar.

In similar fashion as this Paankiti, Naam has been referred to as Naranjan in the following Pankiti:


ਐਸਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਨਿਰੰਜਨੁ ਹੋਇ ॥

Here Naam has been referred to as Naranjan i.e. Clean of Maya. So I don't understand your notion of difference between Naao and Naam.

Quote

Can the word NIRANKAARu which is SINGULAR be taken as NAAMu?

Yes. Please look at the Pankiti below:

ਨਿਰਭਉ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ ਸਚੁ ਨਾਮੁ ॥

Here Naam has been called Nirbhau and Nirankaar. So I don't understand the difference between Naam and Naao that you are pointing out. I think grammatically or even concept-wise, there is no significant difference between Naam and Naao.

Kulbir Singh

If one considers as the word NAAu being refered NIRANKAARu then the word NIRANKAARu is ADJECTIVE for NAAu as this would be telling the Quality of NAAu..Here the meaning of the Quote is for the word NIRANKAARu as NAAu (NAME)

ਨਿਰਭਉ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ ਸਚੁ ਨਾਮੁ .....In this Quote one can see that the words NIRBHAu,NIRANKAARu and SACHu are ADJECTIVES for NAAMu.

It is therefore very important to understand the difference between NOUN and ADJECTIVE words.According to grammar of words one can see that

NOUN words are classified according to Gender as Masculine,Feminine Whereas
ADJECTIVE words are classified according to class (Quality the word Conveys) as SINGULAR or PLURAL.

My observation is that NAAMu should be related to ADJECTIVES rather than NOUN words. as NAAMu is Gender free SINGULAR WORD.
And NOUN words certainly refer to any NAAu.

Bhul Chuk maaf

Daas

Prakash.S.Bagga

COLLECTIVE NOUN wordNAAMu is SINGULAR and its PLURAL is NAAM

Veer Ji, please help understand your point, buy giving example of NAAM as plural, from Gurbani. Dhanwaad Ji.

One can see that there is reference of NAAM as TARANG (WAVES) and it is in this context the understanding of
NAAMu and NAAM is related

One can Consider the examples as
ist

NAAMu .....................WAHi GuROO

NAAM.........................WAHiGuROO...WAHiGuROO....WAHiGuROO....WAHiGurOO..............up to infinite


2nd

NAAMu....................HARiHARi

NAAM......................HARi.HARI...HARiHARi...HARiHARi...HARiHARi......HARiHARi.....................upto infinite

This way PLURAL NAAM represents the TARANG(WAVE) of NAAMu

So there can be as many NAAM as per NAAMu

Bhul Chuk Maaf

Daas

Prakash.S.Bagga

ਨਾਉ ਤੇਰਾ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ ਹੈ ਨਾਇ ਲਇਐ ਨਰਕਿ ਨ ਜਾਈਐ
ਨਿਰਭਉ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ ਸਚੁ ਨਾਮੁ
ਐਸਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਨਿਰੰਜਨੁ ਹੋਇ ॥
Please, Veer Ji, do the meanings of these three Gurbani Pankitiess, one by one, with no reference to grammer. Thanks Ji.

MBSINGH Ji,
Sorry Veer ji ,I am not in favour of Non grammatical interpretations of Gurbanee.

Daas

Prakash.s.Bagga

I think you are misintepreting here. Bhai MB Singh means, interpret these Pankitis without reference to grammar. He does not mean without using grammar.

Thank you Veer Kulbir Singh Ji for your guidance and Suggestion .Now I may do that to my best efforts

ਨਾਉ ਤੇਰਾ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ ਹੈ ਨਾਇ ਲਇਐ ਨਰਕਿ ਨ ਜਾਈਐ
ਨਿਰਭਉ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ ਸਚੁ ਨਾਮੁ
ਐਸਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਨਿਰੰਜਨੁ ਹੋਇ ॥
Considering Ist as

Thou NAME is NIRANKAARu ,by innersing into this one can avoid being in the state of HELL

For 2nd

NAAMu is Nirbhau,Nirankaaru and Suchu

For 3rd

NIRANJANu(Free from the effect of MAYA) NAAMu is like this.

I would request you to present your interpretation too for my reference of understanding
Rest GuRu knows the best

Bhul Chuk Maaf

Daas

Prakash.S.Bagga

NAAu and NAAMu words in Gurbanee have two important references for their meanings

The Word NAAu is either a reference as NAME or Some Single SPECIFIC WORD.

The NAAMu is either the reference for some Single SPECIFIC PAIR Of WORDS or
reference for Single WAVE of SPECIFIC PAIR Of WORDS.

The actal reference meaning would depend on the context of its application.

Bhul Chuk Maaf

Daas

Prakash.S.Bagga

The NAAMu is either the reference for some Single SPECIFIC PAIR Of WORDS or
reference for Single WAVE of SPECIFIC PAIR Of WORDS.

Veer Ji, I am so much thankful to you for taking time, for making the point, clearer. Your meanings above, are convincing. Just a clarificatiobn, for the first pankiti.

Thou NAME is NIRANKAARu ,by innersing into this one can avoid being in the state of HELL

Most probably, when you say "Thou name is NIRANKAARu" you do not mean that Nirankar is the name.

If possible, please, do explain your point (I have colored) with example. It is yet not clear.

Dhanwaad Ji.

MBSINGH JI,

You have rightly caught the point. In fact the word NIRANKAARu is the reference for a SPECIFIC FORM.
On the cotrary what is given to understand the meaning of the word NIRANKAARu as FORMLESS.This is the
most general accepted meaning.
I strongly differ on the meaning of this word being considered as FORMLESS.


Bhul chuk Maaf

Daas

Prakash.S.Bagga

MBSINGH JI,
This is regarding your clarification for the pointwhich you have shown as coloured.
The contents of this are related to the understanding of the concept of GuR JOTi
in Gurbanee..
From the understanding of GuR JoTi one can know that in Gurbanee THE TEACHER
and TEACHING are same
Thus the reference meanng of the word GuRu is THE TEACHER as well as
TEACHING (NAAMu)

Therefore for GuR JoTi the reference meaning of NAAMu is SPECIFIC PAIR OF WORDS or THE WAVE OF
THE SPECIFIC PAIR OF WORDS.

Bhul Chuk Maaf

Daas

Prakash.S.Bagga

Waheguru

Thank you Veer Ji, for taking time for all these clarifications. Guru Sahib Ji kirpa karan, Gurbani da adhar den Ji. Dhanwaad Ji.

Prakash ji

I would request you to come to the point quickly in your posts. You keep the matter hanging fire till at least 3-4 post before actually expressing your point.
Coming back to the subject on hand, this thread is almost 20 posts long and still there is nothing but confusion.

You point, Prakash ji, is that NAAMu is singular masculine 'collective' noun and is different in meaning from NAAu which is singular masculine noun too. can you prove this from Gurbani?

You provided this:

Quote

ਨਾਉ ਤੇਰਾ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ ਹੈ ਨਾਇ ਲਇਐ ਨਰਕਿ ਨ ਜਾਈਐ
Thou NAME is NIRANKAARu ,by innersing into this one can avoid being in the state of HELL

ਨਿਰਭਉ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ ਸਚੁ ਨਾਮੁ
NAAMu is Nirbhau,Nirankaaru and Suchu

ਐਸਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਨਿਰੰਜਨੁ ਹੋਇ ॥
NIRANJANu(Free from the effect of MAYA) NAAMu is like this.

In the second and third pankti, how is NAAMu used as a collective noun? And how does the meaning become different due to this? If we consider NAAMu as a singular masculine noun how does the meaning change then?

You also said

Quote

NAAMu is Gender free SINGULAR WORD

Please explain with example?

Here are some panktis which can be used while discussing:


- ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਵੇਲਾ ਸਚੁ ਨਾਉ ਵਡਿਆਈ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ॥
- ਜੇਤਾ ਕੀਤਾ ਤੇਤਾ ਨਾਉ ॥
- ਵਡਾ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਊਚਾ ਥਾਉ ॥ ਊਚੇ ਉਪਰਿ ਊਚਾ ਨਾਉ ॥
- ਆਖਣਿ ਅਉਖਾ ਸਾਚਾ ਨਾਉ ॥ ਸਾਚੇ ਨਾਮ ਕੀ ਲਾਗੈ ਭੂਖ ॥ ਉਤੁ ਭੂਖੈ ਖਾਇ ਚਲੀਅਹਿ ਦੂਖ ॥੧॥
- ਮੋਤੀ ਤ ਮੰਦਰ ਊਸਰਹਿ ਰਤਨੀ ਤ ਹੋਹਿ ਜੜਾਉ ॥ ਕਸਤੂਰਿ ਕੁੰਗੂ ਅਗਰਿ ਚੰਦਨਿ ਲੀਪਿ ਆਵੈ ਚਾਉ ॥ ਮਤੁ ਦੇਖਿ ਭੂਲਾ ਵੀਸਰੈ ਤੇਰਾ ਚਿਤਿ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਨਾਉ ॥੧॥

Then there

- ਬਾਬਾ ਮਾਇਆ ਰਚਨਾ ਧੋਹੁ ॥ ਅੰਧੈ ਨਾਮੁ ਵਿਸਾਰਿਆ ਨਾ ਤਿਸੁ ਏਹ ਨ ਓਹੁ ॥
- ਰਤਾ ਪੈਨਣੁ ਮਨੁ ਰਤਾ ਸੁਪੇਦੀ ਸਤੁ ਦਾਨੁ ॥ ਨੀਲੀ ਸਿਆਹੀ ਕਦਾ ਕਰਣੀ ਪਹਿਰਣੁ ਪੈਰ ਧਿਆਨੁ ॥ ਕਮਰਬੰਦੁ ਸੰਤੋਖ ਕਾ ਧਨੁ ਜੋਬਨੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਨਾਮੁ ॥੨॥



Now here are 3 panktis in which both NAAMu and NAAu is used. Is there any difference in meaning or usage here?

ਜਿਨ ਕਉ ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਥਾਪਿਆ ਤਿਨ ਮੇਟਿ ਨ ਸਕੈ ਕੋਇ ॥ ਓਨਾ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਨਿਧਾਨੁ ਹੈ ਨਾਮੋ ਪਰਗਟੁ ਹੋਇ ॥ ਨਾਉ ਪੂਜੀਐ ਨਾਉ ਮੰਨੀਐ ਅਖੰਡੁ ਸਦਾ ਸਚੁ ਸੋਇ ॥੩॥

MYSTICAL123 ji,

This is correct that both the words NAAu and NAAMu are SINGULAR.
Accordingly NAAu and NAAMu both are required to be same.And they are
same also .
How they are same that is important to know and this can be understood from a simple
example from Gurbanee for the word HARi

One can see that the Single word HARi is NAAu(Noun Word) not NAAMu and
NAAMu as Collective Noun is a pair of this word as .

One can also see that in Gurbanee HARi NAAu is also refered as

So in the above consideration of the word is NAAu as well as NAAMu.

Therefore NAAu and NAAMu are same for a Single Word (SABADu) HAri.HARi only.
This is not so for any other Noun word

This is my observation only

Bhul Chuk Maaf

Prakash.S.Bagga

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Prakash ji you still have not answered the question.

1. How is NAAMu a collective noun? Which lines prove this?

Quote

One can see that the Single word HARi is NAAu(Noun Word) not NAAMu and
NAAMu as Collective Noun is a pair of this word as .

Questions:
- Where can One see this? I mean where can one see that HARi is NAAu and not NAAMu? Please prove this with example.
-You said NAAMu as collective noun is a pair of this word. Where is the prove of this?
-You ended the sentence at 'as'. 'As' what? You did not complete the sentence. I thought you were going to quote an example but its not there. Please complete the sentence.

I am afraid you are doing nothing to clear your point and you are not citing any strong evidence either. I gave you some lines from Gurbani which I shall copy paste again. Work on these lines and prove you point on these. Here are the lines again:

Prove from the lines below that NAAu is different from NAAMu

- ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਵੇਲਾ ਸਚੁ ਨਾਉ ਵਡਿਆਈ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ॥
- ਜੇਤਾ ਕੀਤਾ ਤੇਤਾ ਨਾਉ ॥
- ਵਡਾ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਊਚਾ ਥਾਉ ॥ ਊਚੇ ਉਪਰਿ ਊਚਾ ਨਾਉ ॥
- ਆਖਣਿ ਅਉਖਾ ਸਾਚਾ ਨਾਉ ॥ ਸਾਚੇ ਨਾਮ ਕੀ ਲਾਗੈ ਭੂਖ ॥ ਉਤੁ ਭੂਖੈ ਖਾਇ ਚਲੀਅਹਿ ਦੂਖ ॥੧॥
- ਮੋਤੀ ਤ ਮੰਦਰ ਊਸਰਹਿ ਰਤਨੀ ਤ ਹੋਹਿ ਜੜਾਉ ॥ ਕਸਤੂਰਿ ਕੁੰਗੂ ਅਗਰਿ ਚੰਦਨਿ ਲੀਪਿ ਆਵੈ ਚਾਉ ॥ ਮਤੁ ਦੇਖਿ ਭੂਲਾ ਵੀਸਰੈ ਤੇਰਾ ਚਿਤਿ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਨਾਉ ॥੧॥

- ਬਾਬਾ ਮਾਇਆ ਰਚਨਾ ਧੋਹੁ ॥ ਅੰਧੈ ਨਾਮੁ ਵਿਸਾਰਿਆ ਨਾ ਤਿਸੁ ਏਹ ਨ ਓਹੁ ॥
- ਰਤਾ ਪੈਨਣੁ ਮਨੁ ਰਤਾ ਸੁਪੇਦੀ ਸਤੁ ਦਾਨੁ ॥ ਨੀਲੀ ਸਿਆਹੀ ਕਦਾ ਕਰਣੀ ਪਹਿਰਣੁ ਪੈਰ ਧਿਆਨੁ ॥ ਕਮਰਬੰਦੁ ਸੰਤੋਖ ਕਾ ਧਨੁ ਜੋਬਨੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਨਾਮੁ ॥੨॥

And, look at this line, it uses both NAAMu and NAAu. Show us that they are different, prove it:
ਜਿਨ ਕਉ ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਥਾਪਿਆ ਤਿਨ ਮੇਟਿ ਨ ਸਕੈ ਕੋਇ ॥ ਓਨਾ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਨਿਧਾਨੁ ਹੈ ਨਾਮੋ ਪਰਗਟੁ ਹੋਇ ॥ ਨਾਉ ਪੂਜੀਐ ਨਾਉ ਮੰਨੀਐ ਅਖੰਡੁ ਸਦਾ ਸਚੁ ਸੋਇ ॥੩॥


Prakash ji, if you have anything real and solid to share then do so! Do not be vague. Aiven confusion ji create naa karo, gall changi tara clear karo.

MYSTIC123 ji,
Firstly I know nothing about your understaning about NAAu ana NAAMu so it would be rather difficult for me
as to what clarification you are looking for.So it would be better if you tell me What is meaning of NAAu ?
What is the meaning of NAAMu?

One can see the pair of words in Gurbanee as
ਪਉੜੀ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਹੁ ਮਨ ਮੇਰੇ ਜਿਤੁ ਸਦਾ ਸੁਖੁ ਹੋਵੈ ਦਿਨੁ ਰਾਤੀ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਹੁ ਮਨ ਮੇਰੇ ਜਿਤੁ ਸਿਮਰਤ ਸਭਿ ਕਿਲਵਿਖ ਪਾਪ ਲਹਾਤੀ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਹੁ ਮਨ ਮੇਰੇ ਜਿਤੁ ਦਾਲਦੁ ਦੁਖ ਭੁਖ ਸਭ ਲਹਿ ਜਾਤੀ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਹੁ ਮਨ ਮੇਰੇ ਮੁਖਿ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਲਗਾਤੀ ॥ ਜਿਤੁ ਮੁਖਿ ਭਾਗੁ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਧੁਰਿ ਸਾਚੈ ਹਰਿ ਤਿਤੁ ਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਾਤੀ ॥੧੩॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 88}

What I understand is that the pair words is being refered as NAAMu.
Is this observation wrong.

This way one can see several quotes where NAAMu is being refered as

The difference between NAAu and NAAMu can be understood only by knowing the grammar of the word GUROO(The word GuR with matra of Dulakad under R) So you should first be clear about this .

I have nothing which is personal.Everything is from Gurbanee only.I can only share the observations of Gurbanee as seen and experienced

If you feel that these observations are vague I cant help any more.

Bhul Chuk Maaf

Prakash.S.Bagga

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Quote

One can see the pair of words in Gurbanee as
ਪਉੜੀ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਹੁ ਮਨ ਮੇਰੇ ਜਿਤੁ ਸਦਾ ਸੁਖੁ ਹੋਵੈ ਦਿਨੁ ਰਾਤੀ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਹੁ ਮਨ ਮੇਰੇ ਜਿਤੁ ਸਿਮਰਤ ਸਭਿ ਕਿਲਵਿਖ ਪਾਪ ਲਹਾਤੀ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਹੁ ਮਨ ਮੇਰੇ ਜਿਤੁ ਦਾਲਦੁ ਦੁਖ ਭੁਖ ਸਭ ਲਹਿ ਜਾਤੀ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਹੁ ਮਨ ਮੇਰੇ ਮੁਖਿ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਲਗਾਤੀ ॥ ਜਿਤੁ ਮੁਖਿ ਭਾਗੁ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਧੁਰਿ ਸਾਚੈ ਹਰਿ ਤਿਤੁ ਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਾਤੀ ॥੧੩॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 88}

What I understand is that the pair words is being refered as NAAMu.
Is this observation wrong.

Prakash Singh jee, Naam here is not referred to as exact words "Har Har". Secondly even if Naam here means exactly the words "Har Har", still that would not make Naam a collective noun because "har Har" are not two separate things but denote repetition of these words. Hence you can't say that it is a collective noun for this reason.

Actually, "Har Har" here represents Naam Gurmantr and is a Kirtam Naam. All words like Har, Gopal, Gobind etc. are Kirtam Naams that have been used in place of Satnaam. Gurmat does not promote chanting of Kirtam Naams.

The fact of the matter is that Naam and Naao both mean the same. Depending on the accent or dialect, some people say Naam while others say Naayo. Both of these words appear as Ik-Purakh Karta Kaarak Naav when they have Aunkad in the end or sometimes also come as Ik Purakh Karam Kaarak Naav. There is no grammatical difference between the two.

Kulbir Singh

KULBIR SINGH Ji,
You may be right in your thinking but I beg to differ.
One should look at the definition of COLLECTIVE NOUN and see how these exist in Gurbanee.
One should also look for the meanings of the word NAAMAA .We do have the references as
HARiNAAMA and RAAM NAAMAA.

Is NAAMAA different from NAAu /NAAMu? This should also be known.

Bhul Chuk Maaf

Prakash.S.Bagga.

It is important to consider the following Quote from Gurbanee as

॥੫੬॥ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮੁ ਉਰ ਮੈ ਗਹਿਓ ਜਾ ਕੈ ਸਮ ਨਹੀ ਕੋਇ ॥ ਜਿਹ ਸਿਮਰਤ ਸੰਕਟ ਮਿਟੈ ਦਰਸੁ ਤੁਹਾਰੋ ਹੋਇ ॥੫੭॥੧॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 1429}

What should be this RAAM NAAMu which is very exclusive and there is nothing equivlent to this NAAMu.?

And this RAAM NAAMu serves two purposes simultaneously

1....All Sankats are elliminated thru the Simranu of this and

2...One gets the vision of Prabhu thru thisNAAMu

If NAAu and NAAMu are same then this RAAM NAAMu should be the word RAAMu/RAAM.

But in Gurbanee it is observed that this RAAM NAAMu is not the word RAAMu or RAAM.

I think this example should be viewed to understand the difference between NAAu and NAAMu.

Bhul Chuk Maaf

Daas

Prakash.S.Bagga

prakash.s.bagga Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------
> Firstly I know nothing about your understaning
> about NAAu ana NAAMu so it would be rather
> difficult for me
> as to what clarification you are looking for.So it
> would be better if you tell me What is meaning of
> NAAu ?
> What is the meaning of NAAMu?

For me there is no grammatical and meaning-level difference between NAAu and NAAMu. I take them both to mean the same, that is Name of God/Onkar.

> One can see the pair of words in Gurbanee as
> ਪਉੜੀ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ
> ਜਪਹੁ ਮਨ ਮੇਰੇ ਜਿਤੁ
> ਸਦਾ ਸੁਖੁ ਹੋਵੈ ਦਿਨੁ
> ਰਾਤੀ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ
> ਜਪਹੁ ਮਨ ਮੇਰੇ ਜਿਤੁ
> ਸਿਮਰਤ ਸਭਿ ਕਿਲਵਿਖ
> ਪਾਪ ਲਹਾਤੀ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ
> ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਹੁ ਮਨ ਮੇਰੇ
> ਜਿਤੁ ਦਾਲਦੁ ਦੁਖ ਭੁਖ
> ਸਭ ਲਹਿ ਜਾਤੀ ॥ ਹਰਿ
> ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਹੁ ਮਨ
> ਮੇਰੇ ਮੁਖਿ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ
> ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਲਗਾਤੀ ॥
> ਜਿਤੁ ਮੁਖਿ ਭਾਗੁ
> ਲਿਖਿਆ ਧੁਰਿ ਸਾਚੈ
> ਹਰਿ ਤਿਤੁ ਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਮੁ
> ਜਪਾਤੀ ॥੧੩॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 88}
>
> What I understand is that the pair words is being
> refered as NAAMu.

The repetition of of Hari Hari does not denote a particular 'pair'. It only signifies the continuous recitation of Naam. And the fact that NAAMu has been used here does not mean that it is being used as a collective noun. The double usage is conveying to the listener that recitation of Hari's Naam is to be continuous. The word NAAMu is clearly being used as a singular noun, not a collective noun at all!
Plus lets not forget that these are poetic lines. There are so many places in which NAAMu has been used elsewhere and there is no double/pair such as Hari Hari. For example here:

ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੩ ॥
ਹਰਿ ਭਗਤਾ ਹਰਿ ਧਨੁ ਰਾਸਿ ਹੈ ਗੁਰ ਪੂਛਿ ਕਰਹਿ ਵਾਪਾਰੁ ॥
ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਸਲਾਹਨਿ ਸਦਾ ਸਦਾ ਵਖਰੁ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਅਧਾਰੁ ॥
ਗੁਰਿ ਪੂਰੈ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਦ੍ਰਿੜਾਇਆ ਹਰਿ ਭਗਤਾ ਅਤੁਟੁ ਭੰਡਾਰੁ ॥੧॥
ਭਾਈ ਰੇ ਇਸੁ ਮਨ ਕਉ ਸਮਝਾਇ ॥
ਏ ਮਨ ਆਲਸੁ ਕਿਆ ਕਰਹਿ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਧਿਆਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
(SGGS, ang 28)

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਾ ਨੋ ਪੰਥੁ ਪਰਗਟਾ ਦਰਿ ਠਾਕ ਨ ਕੋਈ ਪਾਇ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਸਲਾਹਨਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਮਨਿ ਨਾਮਿ ਰਹਨਿ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਇ ॥
(SGGS, 42)

These are just two examples. In both you can see ਹਰਿ has NOT been used twice or as in a pair. Throughout SGGS ji you can find NAAMu used as singular masculine noun. There is no indication that it is used as a collective noun.

> The difference between NAAu and NAAMu can be
> understood only by knowing the grammar of the word
> GUROO(The word GuR with matra of Dulakad under R)
> So you should first be clear about this .

I can't see the relevance of this new point here.

I don't think that we have any evidence to conclude that NAAMu and NAAu have a grammatical difference. In fact above lines which were presented prove that NAAMu is singular masculine.

Again I present the line I presented earlier. Look at this line, it uses both NAAMu and NAAu. Both are used for the same meaning and both are singular masculine, none of them is a collective noun
.
ਜਿਨ ਕਉ ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਥਾਪਿਆ ਤਿਨ ਮੇਟਿ ਨ ਸਕੈ ਕੋਇ ॥ ਓਨਾ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਨਿਧਾਨੁ ਹੈ ਨਾਮੋ ਪਰਗਟੁ ਹੋਇ ॥ ਨਾਉ ਪੂਜੀਐ ਨਾਉ ਮੰਨੀਐ ਅਖੰਡੁ ਸਦਾ ਸਚੁ ਸੋਇ ॥੩॥

Mystical23 ji,

I certainly appreciate your views and you may be right too I dont deny this.
But I see a great significance of use of pair words in Gurbanee .
and I think it is utmst important to understand as why only a Sinle pair of word as"HARi.HARi" is
principally there with reference to NAAMu.

I have categorically presented the view from Gurbanee that NAAu and NAAMu are same for
this Sinle Pair "HARi.HARi " only .This is not so for any other NAAu(Noun Word like

GOBINDu,GOPALu,RAAMu ,HARi............These are Proper Noun words but these words are not being

refered as NAAMu.


Bhul Chuk Maaf

Daas

Prakash.S.Bagga

MYSTICAL23 Ji,

Considering the quote as
ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੩ ॥
ਹਰਿ ਭਗਤਾ ਹਰਿ ਧਨੁ ਰਾਸਿ ਹੈ ਗੁਰ ਪੂਛਿ ਕਰਹਿ ਵਾਪਾਰੁ ॥
ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਸਲਾਹਨਿ ਸਦਾ ਸਦਾ ਵਖਰੁ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਅਧਾਰੁ ॥
ਗੁਰਿ ਪੂਰੈ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਦ੍ਰਿੜਾਇਆ ਹਰਿ ਭਗਤਾ ਅਤੁਟੁ ਭੰਡਾਰੁ ॥੧॥
ਭਾਈ ਰੇ ਇਸੁ ਮਨ ਕਉ ਸਮਝਾਇ ॥
ਏ ਮਨ ਆਲਸੁ ਕਿਆ ਕਰਹਿ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਧਿਆਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
(SGGS, ang 28)

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਾ ਨੋ ਪੰਥੁ ਪਰਗਟਾ ਦਰਿ ਠਾਕ ਨ ਕੋਈ ਪਾਇ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਸਲਾਹਨਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਮਨਿ ਨਾਮਿ ਰਹਨਿ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਇ ॥
(SGGS, 42)

These are just two examples. In both you can see ਹਰਿ has NOT been used twice or as in a pair.


Well,Here I do see that the word HARi is not in pair . Agreed but here the word HARi is either NOUN or ADJECTIVE
In HARi NAAMu ,the word HARi is Adjective for NAAMu .
So the word HARi as Single word is not NAAMu that is what I understand..

Bhul Chuk Maaf

Daas

Prakash.S.Bagga

Quote

GOBINDu,GOPALu,RAAMu ,HARi............These are Proper Noun words but these words are not being

refered as NAAMu.

Sir, you are mistaken look here:

ਕਹਿ ਕਬੀਰ ਚੇਤੈ ਨਹੀ ਮੂਰਖੁ ਮੁਗਧੁ ਗਵਾਰੁ ॥ ਰਾਮੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਾਨਿਓ ਨਹੀ ਕੈਸੇ ਉਤਰਸਿ ਪਾਰਿ

(SGGS, 1105)

This is indisputable evidence that NAAMu refers to HARi as well as RAAMu

Quote

In HARi NAAMu ,the word HARi is Adjective for NAAMu .
So the word HARi as Single word is not NAAMu that is what I understand..

Well, so is the case where HARi HARi is used with NAAMu! The pair becomes an adjective for the noun NAAMu. I don't see anything special or different here!

ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਹੁ ਮਨ ਮੇਰੇ ਜਿਤੁ ਸਦਾ ਸੁਖੁ ਹੋਵੈ ਦਿਨੁ ਰਾਤੀ ॥

In the above line the pair ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ is an adjective for the noun NAAMu. Thats obvious and completely normal.

Prakash ji, the topic of our discussion is that the words NAAMu and NAAu are different. You said that NAAMu is used as a collective noun and is used only along with pair words ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ. You can see from the examples cited that this is certainly not the case.

MYSTICAL Ji,

I have already made it very clear that NAAu and NAAmu are SAME for the pair Words HARi.HARi
Where I have denied this.

But NAAu and NAAMu are not same for other words loke GOBINDu,GOPALu,RAAMu .................

Since NAAMu is always a reference for a pair of words so the word NAAMu is COLLECTIVE NOUN

For understanding that how NAAMu is COLLECTIVE NOUN it would be better if you can get to know
the definition of COLLECTIVE NOUN.

Bhul Chuk Maaf

Daas.

Prakash.S.Bagga