Bibek and Consuming Dairy Products

With Christianity being the exception, every Monotheistic religion has strict dietary laws.Jews have kosher,and Muslims have Halal. Both "Halal" and "Kosher" refer to food being justified/legal . Gursikhs to have a strict dietary laws in which some foods are prohibited.

According to the following verses of Gurbani

1.ਘਾਲਿ ਖਾਇ ਕਿਛੁ ਹਥਹੁ ਦੇਇ ॥
ਨਾਨਕ ਰਾਹੁ ਪਛਾਣਹਿ ਸੇਇ ॥੧॥ ( ang 1245, Pehli Paatshah)

2. ਜਾਕੀ ਰਹਤਿ ਨ ਜਾਣੀਐ ਗੁਰਮੰਤ੍ਰ ਨਹੀ ਚੀਤ।
ਉਨਕਾ ਭੋਜਨ ਖਾਇਕੈ ਬਿਸਰਹਿ ਹਰਿ ਸਿਉ ਪ੍ਰੀਤ। ( Bhai Chaupa Singh Ji rehatnama)

3.ਕਬੀਰ ਜੋਰੁ ਕੀਆ ਸੋ ਜੁਲਮੁ ਹੈ ਲੇਇ ਜਬਾਬੁ ਖੁਦਾਇ ॥
ਦਫਤਰਿ ਲੇਖਾ ਨੀਕਸੈ ਮਾਰ ਮੁਹੈ ਮੁਹਿ ਖਾਇ ॥੨੦੦॥

One can conclude that acceptable/legal food is that which is made through honesty, and not earned through theft or oppression to another sentient being. In addition, the food should be prepared by someone who lives a life according to the Gurus teachings. This seems to be the basic principle of keeping bibek. The principle of sharing ones earnings and eating vegetarian food is reflected through langar. By sharing with others, and acquiring food as long as it does not risk the saftey and comfort of other sentient beings exemplifies the spirit of compassion taught by Guru Sahib.

So I was wondering how is eating eggs or drinking milk acceptable for those living in the West. In India, drinking milk or using butter is not a problem. As the cows get treated like pets, some even get treated like God. But in the West, cows are treated differently. They are treated like slave-like livestock. They get mistreated and the male cows are thrown into the slaughterhouse after they breed. Can we imagine what kind of spirit these cows have after being treated so poorly? Would it be wise to consume their blood ( milk). Surely this would have effect on our jeevan.If we are drinking the blood of an oppressed being how can this not effect Khalsas warrior spirit? Only cowards take pleasure in reaping the resources of the oppressed. Yes, its true their are elderly Chardhi Kala Singhs that drink milk, but we have to understand they are from India and they are most likely unfamiliar with the conduct of the dairy farms in the West. There are Chardhi Kala Gurmukhs who dont keep Keski rehat, but this doesnt make it right. I have a hard time imagining someone like BHai Randhir Singh Ji consuming dairy products from a dairy farm in the Western Hemisphere.

In the past perhaps due to weakness I tried to avoid this issue , since I too delight in drinking milk. Once a Singh was mentioning Vegan diet to me, and I mentioned there was no need for it as Guru Sahib and puratan Singhs partook of dairy products. Me and another Singh also concluded that Vegan diet is not necessary since Degh is made out of butter. But the more I think about this issue It does not seem right for those living in the West to consume these products which come from the suffering of another animal. Dairy in India is completely different then Dairy in the West. Cows get treated much better then cows in the West. By consuming these products we are creating "lekht" with these sentient beings. Guru Sahib says naam springs forward in the heart which is full of compassion and humility. Guru Sahibs advice to those that proclaim they are religious" people of high morale " .

ਦਇਆ ਦੇਵਤਾ ਖਿਮਾ ਜਪਮਾਲੀ ਤੇ ਮਾਣਸ ਪਰਧਾਨ ॥
- Those people who make compassion and forgiveness their daily ritual are the people with exalted character.

Unless one has their own cows or knows someone who has their own cows I dont think its a good practice to use dairy products. I think having a little degh can be the only exception, since Degh recipe cannot change as it was created by GUru Sahib.


ਗੋ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਨ ਕੀ ਰੱਖਿਆ ਕਰੈ l
ਭਾਈ ਦੇਸਾ ਸਿੱਘ ਜੀ
- Protect the cow and the oppressed.

Bhai Sahib Jagtar Singh Jee Tapoban spoke to us in vehement opposition to Gursikhs going on Vegan diet. They described milk as "sariya naal pavittar cheez" (most pure thing for consumption). If one is keeping Bibek as best as possible, you will only get health problems stopping dairy. We can't go on worrying about the cows getting 5* treatment.

Dairy is base diet of Singhs, old time Singhs were eating kilos and kilos of butter, milk, and yoghurt every day and that is why they were so fit, and strong, and chardikalaa. One can only attain high spirituality with fully fit and strong body. Dairy is essential for Singhs.

ਮਃ ੫ ||
ਘਟਿ ਵਸਹਿ ਚਰਣਾਰਬਿੰਦ ਰਸਨਾ ਜਪੈ ਗੁਪਾਲ ||
ਨਾਨਕ ਸੋ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਸਿਮਰੀਐ ਤਿਸੁ ਦੇਹੀ ਕਉ ਪਾਲਿ ||੨||

ma 5 |
ghatt vasehi charanaarabindh rasanaa japai gupaal |
naanak so prabh simareeai this dhaehee ko paal |2|

You don’t eat proper diet and don’t take care of your precious human body. If you lose your human body, then how will you do simran?”

Bhai Sahib,

When you say Pehli Patshaah, or Dasmi Patshaah, it is not grammatically correct. It should be Pehle Patshaah, Dasme Patshaah,ect.
If I am wrong, then please show me an example of it written as Pehli Patshaah.

The short form of et cetera is etc not ect.

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

I will have to turn to Pavan Ahari soon (but then I would kill the bacteria in the air)...Guru Sahib grant me the strength to live on Naam alone...

I recall Bhai Rama Singh Ji's autobiography, in which he chronicled how the farmers would have a stick with a nail in it to beat the beasts of burden to plow on the farm...would this entail that Gursikhs back in the day (and present) would refuse to eat vegetables grown on such farms? To get a horse/cow/ox to run, you have to whip it/beat it...Gursikhs obviously rode/ride horses - unless one claims that all Sikhs are horse-whisperers (for all I know...). Even modern day technology uses predominantly gasoline/diesel powered machines to do farming that pollute and harm the environment (think oil spills - massacre of scores of life at one incident with lingering effects that poison the world for a long time to come).

Where do we draw the line and if someone if going to draw these lines, are we going to do something about it that would be positive - aka. Gursikh dairies or Gursikh Bibek store/farm or Gursikh Sarbloh shops that supply the world accessible online with credit card payment/Paypal?

Bhul Chuk Maaf.

Leafy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The short form of et cetera is etc not ect.

Also, three examples should be used before putting an "etc," any less than that putting just "and" is fine.

This has been briefly discussed before here.

And for some reason, raw milk is banned in Canada? I've read Bibeki Singh's purchased raw milk in Toronto?

2. ਜਾਕੀ ਰਹਤਿ ਨ ਜਾਣੀਐ ਗੁਰਮੰਤ੍ਰ ਨਹੀ ਚੀਤ।
ਉਨਕਾ ਭੋਜਨ ਖਾਇਕੈ ਬਿਸਰਹਿ ਹਰਿ ਸਿਉ ਪ੍ਰੀਤ। ( Bhai Chaupa Singh Ji rehatnama)

This clarifies a lot of things for me. I wish when there are amritsanchars, that the sikhs taking amrit then get given handouts which have these kinds of strict rehtnaamas so that we aren't left wondering around, doing things that we aren't supposed to and basically taking chances because new comers aren't informed properly, because then the people who do have knowlege, they sort of laugh at the people who aren't told things completely, because they have families and sangat and us new comers don't really have any clues and so therefore they have an upper hand at this game. I've seen it happen and people have done this to me. We new comers into sikhi shouldn't be used as 'new experiments' by the older sikhs. Every time I go infront of them, they shamelessly laugh in my face, which really isn't a supportive thing to do and really pushes people away, and ultimately they lose their own respect in our eyes. Just because you know all the rules doesn't mean you should play with new team members without giving them a list of the rules to play by. That's just mean to do.

I would also like to say that when new comers come to embrace sikhi, that the Punj involved in blessing the new sikhs with Amrit don't speak indirectly to the Sikhs, saying things like "some singhs don't even do this" "some singhs don't even do that". It's really annoying, and they are doing it to take the piss out of them then that isn't a good approach. Rather a better approach would be, just telling the rules/conduct as it is. State it as it is please because that way it sounds objective.

And one becomes more knowledgeable should only make a person more humble, humility in actions and words and body language. I have heard this from somewhere or read it somewhere, that as the tree gets bigger it's roots get deeper and it lowers itself, it provides shade and relief for others to rest under.

Sometimes Leafy jee, there is not always clear cut Gurbani pangtees or Rehitnamas in support of all Gurmat arguments and practices. It's our duty to get educated on Gurmat, but it only happens with the kirpa of Guru Jee via books, sangat, or in this case Internet.

So if someone just writes "this is this. full stop." without giving any supporting evidence, they will no doubt offend fellow Gursikhs. Which is not desired. For example this direct and "stating it as it is" post was met with outrage.

So that's why language like "Many Gursikhs do this..." "Some Singhs say this.." is used. Furthermore, there is the duty and obligation to respect and follow the maryada of Sri Akaal Takhat Sahib as well. No one is trying to mock or offend anyone else.

I am so used to reading hearing straight forward stuff.

I think the method of "Some singhs do this, some singhs do that" is a good method of saying things.

I was expressing disapproval of lines like "Some singhs don't even do ......" That's like a put down and definitely not a clear method of giving instruction', to me it isn't.

Jaskirat Singh- Im sure if someone informed Bhai Sahib about the practices of dairy farms in North America he would not consume the milk. THere have been many example of Gurmukhs going out of their way to show compassion to Animals. For example , both Baba Harnam Singh Ji ( Rampur Khera) and Baba Nand Singh Ji went out of their way to help a cow who was being mistreated by their owner. In fact, I remember reading on this forum that a Gurmukh by the name of Baba Shaam Singh also displayed courteousy and compassion towards a cow. The fact of the matter is compassion is a sign of Gurmukhs; thus, we should make efforts in implementing compassion throughout our lives. Gursikhs of the past did not rely on milk to survive they relied on Gurmat qualitites like passion to survive. I dont think Singhs of the past overindulged in dairy products, since GUru Sahib says eat litte and practice compassion.
ਅਲਪ ਅਹਾਰ ਸੁਲਾਪ ਸੀ ਨਿੰਦ੍ਰਾ ਦਯਾ ਛਿਮਾ ਤਨ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ॥
Shabad Hazarey ( Dasmi Paatshah)

Its silly to claim Gursikhs were chardhi Kala due to dairy products like milk and butter and one cannot be chardhi kala without a fit body. Have you seen how skinny the compassionate Bhagat Puran Singh Ji was. He would starve for days because he preferred others to be fed before him. He also had lots of love for Animals. Who can claim he was not Charhi Kala? How can he not be chardhi Kala? To do the type of compassionate work he did one has to be chardhi kala otherwise they wont last.

I have seen many people from non- Sikh backgrounds who are vegan and 10 times fitter then most Gursikhs including this fat slob. If we exercise we wont have to worry about any health issues. Guru Sahib says take care of the body but dont be attached to it. Since when did Gursikhs start worrying about their body and health. If Puratan Singhs worried about their body would the panth have any shaheeds today.


Ms514-

Cows are different then the sentient beings you mentioned. Air, trees, vegetables, etchave no sensational feeling. You can whip air and trees as much as you want and they wont feel any pain. In fact, Bhai Gurdas Ji says trees are so Chardhi Kala that you keep picking at them and they dont lose their fruit ( Goodness) instead they just laugh. So Chardhi Kala!
[www.sikhitothemax.com]

But cows are not as Chardhi Kala as trees. They are soft ( sensitive) and get depressed easily. I use to work in an area which was surrounded by dairy farms, and I can tell you with certainty they are not as happy nor are they treated as well as the cows in India. In fact, I started driving a different route to work to escape these pitiful sites.

If we wear Kirpan which represents compassion and honor yet we show no compassion to these beings then how are we any different then the Bahmans who were religious symbols but do not practice their religion. Guru Sahib says symbols are useless without practicing Gurmat virtues. By practicing GUrmat Virtues we become Chardhi Kala/exalted ( ਮਾਣਸ ਪਰਧਾਨ )
ਦਇਆ ਦੇਵਤਾ ਖਿਮਾ ਜਪਮਾਲੀ ਤੇ ਮਾਣਸ ਪਰਧਾਨ ॥

but by drinking the blood of sentient beings who veins are full with sadness and depression how do we expect to raise up into high spirits? It will take much more time and our effort on our behalf to keep the spirit exalted. If we believe Guru is always with us and he is in our jot and he knows every action we do how can we consume of such products with a conscience mind?

* milk is actually the blood of the animal. We cant assume that the feeling and temperament of the animal wont effect us if we consume their blood. There have been recent scientific studies show that mothers who are compassionate about breast feeding their newborn produce more milk then those that show no interest in their newborn. Bhai Rama Singh Ji also mentions in his book that Khalsa Raj will have cows which will be well treated, and because of this treatment they will produce more milk.

Whipping a horse and killing a cow after it has done is breeding are two different things. I have ridden horses in the past. When you want to accelerate the speed of the horse you have to kick it a little harder which may be irritating . When you want it to jump you have to lift the chains in its mouth which causes irritation as well. But this is how horse functions. The horse knows its being treated this way for a legit reason. Same with cows in India they get the whip to move faster for a reason. But after work they are well fed and taken care of. Indian children also get the whip to keep them working hard this is why they are so successful in their studies, but at the same time they get love from their parents. The whipping is there to remind them that their parents care about their success. If cows in India are being oppressed then yeah Gursikhs shouldnt consume from them as well.I remember reading a story about Baba Nand Singh Ji. There was a farmer who was completely beating this cow/ox (?) . Baba Ji told the owner to stop. He later explained that in a previous life the ox was a human and showed the same cruelty to a different ox thus it was reborn and faced similar consequences according to its lekht. So a whip here and there is normal but maltreatment , neglect, and murder are not ok .

Besides I thought one of the main reasons we dont consume meat is because the way cows are tortured and go through immense pain. Arent we having double standards by consuming their blood if they are being tortured/mistreated? Is this no different then halal or kosher.

ਕਬੀਰ ਜੋਰੁ ਕੀਆ ਸੋ ਜੁਲਮੁ ਹੈ ਲੇਇ ਜਬਾਬੁ ਖੁਦਾਇ ॥
ਦਫਤਰਿ ਲੇਖਾ ਨੀਕਸੈ ਮਾਰ ਮੁਹੈ ਮੁਹਿ ਖਾਇ ॥੨੦੦॥

I know we are off topic, but if you are interested in reading Rehitnamas, please see over here: http://sikhitothemax.com/Rehat.asp?Order=Alpha

Also, there is a book called Rehitnamey by Professor Jee Piyara Singh Padam which has compiled most, if not all, authentic Rehitnamas into one book which you might be interested in. Most likely it will be available from Sacha Sauda in Brampton. "Many Singhs say..." it is a great book.

You must also no doubt be aware, that there are many (albeit mostly minor) differences amongst Gursikhs in the Khalsa Panth so we have to treat such issues with politeness, sensitivity, and respect because often "straight forward" is interpreted as being rude or offensive.


Of course there are some questionable and concocted rehitnamas, saakhis and writings on Sikhi, so we must always test everything we read in accordance with Gurmat and Gurbani.

[www.youtube.com]

Because Canadians are much more lenient on how they treat their " livestock" I decided to post the above link. I didnt think it was right to post how Americans do things. Administrators probably wouldnt want such graphic footage.

One of the quotes about the video

"Unfortunately almost all cull or spent dairy cows taken to auction are bought by slaughterhouses. They are seen as worthless - milked to the point where their bones have become osteoporotic from calcium being leached from them. They become so prone to fractures that it's more economical for the producer to sell her broken-down body while she can still make it to auction"

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

Due to the strong feelings expressed by Bhai Sukhdeep Singh, I propose that he opens a Khalsa Dairy that will service the entire California area. That way, he can do seva for the tens of thousands of Sikhs that reside here.

Put me down for 2 gallons a week...

In the past I have tried to convince my family how organic milk is a striving industry, but I was unable to convince them to open up an organic farm If I ever have enough resources to open an organic farm by myself then God willing I will. Monthly Kirtan darbars will be there , kheer and gulab jaman langar will be served throughout the night thanks to the kind cows. Also, since you are my first customer you will get the first 2 gallons for free , but after that dont be expecting the indian discount buy 2 gallons get 2 free.

Veer Jee, you can try it, of course I am not trying to force you, but I think you will regret it a lot. It will mess up your health big time, especially with Sarbloh Bibek.

Also, this ethical approach to everything is not practical, look at the clothes we are wearing, majority is manufactured under sweat shop conditions in India - like it, or not, and by wearing them are we condoning the treatment and oppression of workers? Are we drinking blood of these workers by wearing this clothing? There are many more examples relevant for all products we consume and use on a daily basis. All this nitty gritty business is dangerous and waste of time. I stand by my first post still. When Khalsa Raaj comes sure we will have Khalsa Dairies and what not.

I believe organic milk is realistically the best option.. better for the cows, environment and consumers.

[hubpages.com]

Jaskirat Singh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Veer Jee, you can try it, of course I am not
> trying to force you, but I think you will regret
> it a lot. It will mess up your health big time,
> especially with Sarbloh Bibek.
>
> Also, this ethical approach to everything is not
> practical, look at the clothes we are wearing,
> majority is manufactured under sweat shop
> conditions in India - like it, or not, and by
> wearing them are we condoning the treatment and
> oppression of workers? Are we drinking blood of
> these workers by wearing this clothing? There are
> many more examples relevant for all products we
> consume and use on a daily basis. All this nitty
> gritty business is dangerous and waste of time. I
> stand by my first post still. When Khalsa Raaj
> comes sure we will have Khalsa Dairies and what
> not.


Veer Ji, When I state drinking blood I literally mean drinking blood. Milk is the blood of the animal. If we are drinking the blood of an animal which has been oppressed/mistreated then we will be at a loss. What you put on your body is different then what you put in your body. Also, most people in workshops are not forced into working nor are they killed after they do their work.

Singho, If you can sleep at night knowing the dairy in your stomach comes from the suffering of a sentient being then I dont know what to say? Im not forcing my beliefs on you or anyone else. I know its best to keep certain rehats "gupt", but since this a forum that emphasizes diet I thought I should discuss this issue openly with the public. I now have regrets as it seems most people seem indifferent to the suffering of the poor cows. I have quoted verses from GUrbani about compassion but it seems like these verses are irrelevant in todays modern world. Lets forget about the " nitty gritty" business of daya.

In regards to health issues. People claim vegetarians are vulnerable to health problems due to a lack of protien. Does this mean we should start eating meat? Of course not! There are substitutes . Its true Milk has both lots of calcium and protein. But almonds have both more calcium and protein then milk. Almonds and Soy both can be used to make home made milk. Plus almonds give oxygen to the brain and improve ones memory. Milk has high saturated fat which is unhealthy for human consumption. In the old days, Singhs drank milk over water as it was more convenient to acquire milk since one did not have to get it through the well or the river. But this doesnt mean its more healthy. Many families from Punjab have a history of high cholesterol . Any idea why? Because they overindulge in its consumption. You mentioned your self that we should take care of our body in order to do Bhagti but how are we taking care of our body if we consuming products that give us high cholesterol and makes us more lethargic? Im not suggesting SInghs in India should go vegan. A Singh can never go vegan as their is butter in parshaad. Eating small amounts of parshaad is different then drinking milk or butter on a daily basis without taking into consideration was their immense suffering behind this glass of milk.

KaramVir Singh Veer Ji- organic milk is also not an option for ethical Gursikhs. Yes, you are right organic farmers are smart in taking well care of their cows because they know its good for their business. But lets not forget they are a business, and businesses are in the business of making money regardless of the suffering of sentient beings. When a cow no longer gives milk they send it to the slaughter house. I use to think only angus cows (different kind of cow) were made to be slaughtered but it turns out milk-giving cows are also slaughtered. This also includes male cows from diary farms.

Also, at organic farms just like the calves from Dairy farms the calves are separated from their mother and murdered.
[www.youtube.com]
forward to 1:30

It seems like the only option would be to get milk from an ethical/principled farmer, or just drink soy milk and almond milk. Its not the end of the world if someone stops consuming dairy products from the West.

I really appreciate the views expressed (and the method of expression also) by Sukhdeep Singh Veer Ji in this topic. I agree with Veer Ji. We can not shut our eyes simply with the feeling that we do pay for the milk we consume and it is none our business to get acquinted about the conditions under which the animal is producing it. Certainly the cow is not an apple tree or corn field; where feelings have no room. We are not supposed to ignore unpleasent treatment of animals, for the sake of our food habits.

But

Where to draw the line? As ms514 Veer Ji says. We have to touch practicality also. In case of honey production, we do face a similar but of very low level, ethical problem. The bees do not work miles and hours, for us, not for us, I repeat. Veer Kulbir Singh Ji has already told us that honey is OK with Bibek.

After all ( Afterall?, Leafy to check, pl.); food is food. You can not say a man who eats meat is always less compassionate than the man who eats vegetables. Vegetarian Brahmins were more cruel and insensitive to human feelings than non vegetarian western people. Why so? Why so? I repeat.

The line is very sesitive issue, I feel.

By the way, is it that Dairying is always, so cruel a business now? Animal Health, Veterinary Science, Feed and Fodder Requirements of animals etc, all these subjects are taught to dairy farmers, so that they can better care their animals? Do not they need healthy animals to produce more milk?

Veer Sukhdeep Singh ji, there is no way that in Chauraasi Lakh Joon, one is to not go through pain. This is impossible.
Whether cows are mistreated, sent to slaughterhouses, it is not in our control. Those that do this, will themselves have to be reincarnated as cows and go through the same maltreatment. Where does it end? Yes it is true, that in Khalsa Raaj, all beings, including cows, would be given proper treatment, and fed properly.

I recall a Sakhi of one of the Bhagats (can't seem to recall which one it was at the moment). This Bhagat was a butcher, due to his Karams. One day, a customer showed up at his shop and asked for a "goat leg", to this the Bhagat replied, if he only cut off the leg of the goat, then the goat would have rot, but the customer only wanted the leg of the goat. So, being a butcher, he grabbed a ?knife? and proceeded to fulfill the demand of the customer. As he approached the goat, he felt as if the goat was laughing at him and saying "for countless lives, we have been killing each other. Sometimes you were a goat, and I was the butcher, I would kill you, then you were a butcher, and I was a goat, and you would kill me. But today, you are starting another Karma. If you cut my leg off today, for which I would suffer for and eventually die, I would have to do the same to you, and you too would have to undergo the same consequences. So you decide."

To this, the Bhagat dropped the idea, and returned to tell the customer that he couldn't do this task, but the customer had dissapeared by then.

The moral of the above story is, we are all stuck in Karma. No one can get out of it, unless we do intense Kamaai of Naam-Baani. If you think that abstaining from consuming dairy products would cut the Karmas of the cows, or by taking in dairy products, you are adding Paap on yourself, you are mistaken friend. Such things should not be worried. The main purpose for which cows have been created by Vaheguroo, is to give milk. And it this milk, which can be used to make other dairy products. To put milk and eggs in the same category, because both cows and chickens are farm animals, is complete arrogance, idiocy. Livestock are not produced from milk. Whereas, the yolk inside the egg shell eventually sprouts to become a full live chick. You remind of this scene from Chandi Di Vaar, where the Demons were being reproduced from their own blood. But, milk does not work that way, and even if through milk, more cows being born, isn't that benefit for the society? Or am I going totally going off topic here?

The bottom line is, If Guroo Sahib ji has said in Siri Asa Ki Vaar, that through clarified butter, the food or the mouth becomes Pavit(Pure/Shudh)

ਅੰਨੁ ਦੇਵਤਾ ਪਾਣੀ ਦੇਵਤਾ ਬੈਸੰਤਰੁ ਦੇਵਤਾ ਲੂਣੁ ਪੰਜਵਾ ਪਾਇਆ ਘਿਰਤੁ ॥
The corn is sacred, the water is sacred; the fire and salt are sacred as well; when the fifth thing, the ghee, is added,

ਤਾ ਹੋਆ ਪਾਕੁ ਪਵਿਤੁ ॥
then the food becomes pure and sanctified.

If Guroo Sahib has said that it is OK and even FUNDAMENTAL to consume dairy products, that's it, ਪੱਥਰ ਤੇ ਲਕੀਰ! Why should we start thinking of ourselves as better or higher than Guroo Sahib. If cows are going through pain, it is because of their previous Karma. I'm sorry, but we can't change that. They have to go through it. Eventually, it is Satguroo ji-Vaheguroo Himself, who is causing pain and suffering. We shouldn't worry so much about it. In fact, Siri Sukhmani Sahib, Satguroo Siri Guru Arjun Dev Ji Mahaaraaj has said it all:

ਮਨ ਮੂਰਖ ਕਾਹੇ ਬਿਲਲਾਈਐ ॥
O foolish mind, why do you cry and bewail?

ਪੁਰਬ ਲਿਖੇ ਕਾ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਪਾਈਐ ॥
You shall obtain your pre-ordained destiny.

ਦੂਖ ਸੂਖ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਦੇਵਨਹਾਰੁ ॥
God is the Giver of pain and pleasure.

ਅਵਰ ਤਿਆਗਿ ਤੂ ਤਿਸਹਿ ਚਿਤਾਰੁ ॥
Abandon others, and think of Him alone.

ਜੋ ਕਛੁ ਕਰੈ ਸੋਈ ਸੁਖੁ ਮਾਨੁ ॥
Whatever He does - take comfort in that.

ਭੂਲਾ ਕਾਹੇ ਫਿਰਹਿ ਅਜਾਨ ॥
Why do you wander around, you ignorant fool?

ਕਉਨ ਬਸਤੁ ਆਈ ਤੇਰੈ ਸੰਗ ॥
What things did you bring with you?

ਲਪਟਿ ਰਹਿਓ ਰਸਿ ਲੋਭੀ ਪਤੰਗ ॥
You cling to worldly pleasures like a greedy moth.

ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਜਪਿ ਹਿਰਦੇ ਮਾਹਿ ॥
Dwell upon the Lord's Name in your heart.

ਨਾਨਕ ਪਤਿ ਸੇਤੀ ਘਰਿ ਜਾਹਿ ॥4॥
O Nanak, thus you shall return to your home with honor. ||4||


If Gursikhs should stop consuming dairy products, then we should also conclude that breast feeding should be banned, because sometimes the baby is so clung onto the mother's breast, that the baby just wouldn't let go. After all, breast milk is also the blood of the mother, which becomes, with Guru ji's Kirpaa and His Chamatkaar (Miracle), becomes milk. Should we conclude that to free moms from this task, babies should not be fed breast milk? But then again, the baby has to be fed milk somehow, most likely goat milk, but oops, goats are going through pain, so let's just make the baby suffer and die off, but then the baby the baby suffers...where does it end? It's all Karma friend!

I'm sorry, but Sukhdeep Singh Bhai Sahib, we mere creatures/beings/mortals can not ever take over the job of Satguroo Sachaa Patshaah (and not Sachi Patshaah). Vaheguoo Ji eventually is the doer of all things, to conclude if I stop, in your case, stop consuming dairy products, I am reducing the pain the cows have to go through. For sure, you have to go through a lot of pain and suffering, you most likely have Karams that hinder you from enjoying some of the comforts and pleasures of life, so if I was to give up one comfort/pleasure for the sake of you, does it mean, you now suddenly start enjoying the pleasures/comforts you probably had never dreamt of? I guess not, but then, if Vaheguroo Ji Wills, then maybe yea.

Let's look at what Satguroo Shiri Guru Naanak Dev Ji Mahaaraaj Sachaa Patshaah ji is saying:

ਸਲੋਕੁ ਮਃ 1 ॥
ਸਹੰਸਰ ਦਾਨ ਦੇ ਇੰਦ੍ਰੁ ਰੋਆਇਆ ॥
ਪਰਸ ਰਾਮੁ ਰੋਵੈ ਘਰਿ ਆਇਆ ॥
ਅਜੈ ਸੁ ਰੋਵੈ ਭੀਖਿਆ ਖਾਇ ॥
ਐਸੀ ਦਰਗਹ ਮਿਲੈ ਸਜਾਇ ॥
ਰੋਵੈ ਰਾਮੁ ਨਿਕਾਲਾ ਭਇਆ ॥
ਸੀਤਾ ਲਖਮਣੁ ਵਿਛੁੜਿ ਗਇਆ ॥
ਰੋਵੈ ਦਹਸਿਰੁ ਲੰਕ ਗਵਾਇ ॥ ਜਿਨਿ ਸੀਤਾ ਆਦੀ ਡਉਰੂ ਵਾਇ ॥
ਰੋਵਹਿ ਪਾਂਡਵ ਭਏ ਮਜੂਰ ॥ ਜਿਨ ਕੈ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਰਹਤ ਹਦੂਰਿ ॥
ਰੋਵੈ ਜਨਮੇਜਾ ਖੁਇ ਗਇਆ ॥
ਏਕੀ ਕਾਰਣਿ ਪਾਪੀ ਭਇਆ ॥
ਰੋਵਹਿ ਸੇਖ ਮਸਾਇਕ ਪੀਰ ॥
ਅੰਤਿ ਕਾਲਿ ਮਤੁ ਲਾਗੈ ਭੀੜ ॥
ਰੋਵਹਿ ਰਾਜੇ ਕੰਨ ਪੜਾਇ ॥
ਘਰਿ ਘਰਿ ਮਾਗਹਿ ਭੀਖਿਆ ਜਾਇ ॥
ਰੋਵਹਿ ਕਿਰਪਨ ਸੰਚਹਿ ਧਨੁ ਜਾਇ ॥
ਪੰਡਿਤ ਰੋਵਹਿ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਗਵਾਇ ॥
ਬਾਲੀ ਰੋਵੈ ਨਾਹਿ ਭਤਾਰੁ ॥
ਨਾਨਕ ਦੁਖੀਆ ਸਭੁ ਸੰਸਾਰੁ ॥
ਮੰਨੇ ਨਾਉ ਸੋਈ ਜਿਣਿ ਜਾਇ ॥
ਅਉਰੀ ਕਰਮ ਨ ਲੇਖੈ ਲਾਇ ॥1॥

Therefore, to be a cow is already a suffering, and it is a 100% guarantee that whosoever ends up as a cow, or any animal, will have to suffer, because that person wasted their human life, and now has to go through this punishment. It is all Hukam Of Prabhu-Akaal Purakh-Vaheguroo-Guroo Saahib. You can not change that.

You live in California, I live in Toronto, I enjoy regular Sangat of Gurmukh Pyaare Tyaar-Bar-Tyaar Gursikhs, who are really Chardikala! It is my past Karams. It is Choji Satguroo ji's Marzi that he has placed so many amazing Chardikala Singhs in Toronto, who knows why? Now, do I have the capability to change the fact that you live in California? NO! It is all Vaheguroo ji's Marzi! Who can change that? Maybe if I do Ardaas for you Bhai Sahib, then maybe things can change, again, that's up to Guroo Sahib, no one change that.


ਆਦਿ ਜੁਗਾਦਿ ਭਗਤਨ ਕਾ ਰਾਖਾ ਉਸਤਤਿ ਕਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਜੀਵਾ ॥
In the beginning, and throughout the ages, He is the Protector of His devotees. Praising Him continually, I live.

Therefore only Gursikhs are protected and saved jio!

Your post is not in line with Gurmat!

ਭੁੱਲਾਂ ਚੁੱਕਾਂ ਦੀ ਖ਼ਿਮਾਂ ਬਖ਼ਸ਼ਣੀ ਜੀ ਸੰਗਤੋਂ!

Vaheguroo JI kA KHalsa Vaheguroo Ji KI Fatheh!!!

MB Singh Veer JI you are absolutely right being vegetarian does not make one a saint. For example, the name Hitler is synonymous with "evil" yet Hitler was a vegetarian. Without giving milk to the calve cows are useless, without applying water to the fields crops are useless similarly the being without Naam is useless. But at the same time GUru Sahib says those beings that practice Gurmat virtues are true candidates for the full blessings of Naam, because without Gurmat virtues Bhagti is not possible.Some people can say without milk Bhagti is not possible , but according to Guru Sahib without Gurmat Virtues; Bhagti is not possible.
ਵਿਣੁ ਗੁਣ ਕੀਤੇ ਭਗਤਿ ਨ ਹੋਇ ॥

Yes , we live in the West and their are some lines that need to be drawn. In the past, puratan Singhs dealt with one another and avoided exchanging goods with the malechh.


ਧਰਮ ਕਿਰਤ ਪਾਇ, ਖਾਲਸਾ ਸੋ ਜਿਨ ਤਨ, ਮਨ, ਧਨ ਗੁਰੂ ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਕੋ ਸੌਪਿਆ ਹੈ
Bhai Daya Singh Jis rehatnama

According to Bhai Desa Singh Jis rehatnama "leyna deyna" ( commerce) was confined within the Khalsa panth. But those of us whom have migrated do no have the " good fortune" of doing exhange only with fellow Gursikhs. We have to deal with the malechh sangat throughout the day.For example, everytime I buy gas Im supporting a company that is going to use this money to buy more and more tobacco and alcohol. Everytime I buy food from the Malechhes store Im giving them more money to buy meat and other products that go against GUrmat. But one really has no alternative in such matters unless one lives like a yogi in a cave.

Guru Sahib says live a practical life. Do naam jaap, kirat karna, and vand chhakna. Without buying gas and going to work one cannot do work and give some of the earnings to others. So in such uncontrollable situations one has no choice to compromise and do Ardas so Guru Sahib will create Khalsa Raaj. But in cases like drinking milk, one has a choice to avoids its consumption. One can avoid drinking milk and still live a healthy Gurmat lifestyle. Yes in an ideal society there would be Khalsa markets, Khalsa dairy farms, Khalsa Schools etc, but untill that time comes we have to work within reasonable limits.

Jaspreet Singh - In the past I stated I live in an area where there are very few Gursikhs. I never once claimed California has no Chardhi Kala Singhs nor can you claim Toronto has more Chardhi Kala SInghs. How can you make this statement? Have you ever been to California?

Quote

Jaspreet Singh - In the past I stated I live in an area where there are very few Gursikhs. I never once claimed California has no Chardhi Kala Singhs nor can you claim Toronto has more Chardhi Kala SInghs. How can you make this statement? Have you ever been to California?

Well as far as I'm concerned, in this lifetime, I have not yet been to California, don't know if it's written in my Karams. Secondly, I have done not a statistical analysis of how many Gursikhs there are down at your side, and out of them, what are their Avasthaas, how Chardikala are they..that Guroo Sahib knows!
I never once claimed that Toronto has more Chardikala Gursikhs than California, all I said was that I live in Toronto, and I enjoy regular of Gursikhs in Toronto, and that they are Tyaar-Bar-Tyaar and Chardikala! Yes, it is true there may be more Gursikhs living in Toronto, than that in California. So how can you say that I have claimed that there more Chardikala Singhs in Toronto than that in California? Do you have a life? honestly!


Moving on to the original topic, yes it is OK and allowed for GurSikhs to consumer milk and other dairy products.

I request the admins/moderators of this site to now close the topic, as this is serving no real purpose, and only exposing hypocritical views. Vaheguroo!


Vaheguroo Ji KA Khalsa Vaheguroo JI Ki Fatheh!!!

Jaspreet Singh I dont think you understand the concept of Karma within the confines of Sikhi. Yes, we all suffer due to previous karma. Not only do cows ( animals) suffer but humans suffer as well. Does this mean we dont practice compassion to those that are suffering. Was Bhagat Puran Singh Ji wrong in helping the crippled who received this handicap due to previous karma? Your example of banning mothers giving breast milk is ridiculous. Mothers have the choice to give their children milk. Nobody throws them in a cage , takes their newborn baby away from them, cuts their tail off so it doesnt interfere with the milk machines, and then slaughters them when they are too weak to give any milk.

IF we are drinking from Western farms then we are proving them with more funds to purchase and produce more cows that will be slaughtered and mistreated. We can only do our part to reduce the suffering. Im not claiming by not drinking or eating dairy products, cows will no longer suffer. But if we are funding the paycheck of the butcher then how are we any different then the butcher. Please provide the pangti in which Guru Sahib says turn a blind eye to suffering, and please provide the pangti which Guru Sahib says taking pleasure from the suffering of another is ok. Guru Sahib says the opposite , and mentions as long as we dont intentionally cause dukh ( suffering) to another being (ਜੀਅ )we will go to "NijGhar" ( true inner home) with honor.
ਦੂਖੁ ਨ ਦੇਈ ਕਿਸੈ ਜੀਅ ਪਤਿ ਸਿਉ ਘਰਿ ਜਾਵਉ ॥

The heart that has compassion for all beings and sees God in all beings will always be close to their true home. Yes, its true cows, humans, and all beings suffer due to their karma. But we must remember we all come from the same place, and we all have the same destiny; thus, every being should be treated with some decency. We should be empathetic towards all beings. This is our duty as a Gursikh.

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

"malechh sangat throughout the day"

Malechh (dirty, unholy) is a derogatory word, on the level of calling someone a Kafir. I would not use such terminology to refer to non-Sikhs. It is quite demeaning.

If an individual chooses to refrain from dairy products to the greatest extent allowable by Rehat, so be it. Personal choice. To raise awareness, great, definitely. To imply that others should become of a similar view - crossing the line. Otherwise, Sikhs should stop wearing shawls/blankets made of wool (cause you know, the sheep cry when you shear their wool), not have any silk suits (thousands of worms are killed to make that one suit) and not use any petroleum products/gasoline (hundreds of thousands, probably millions, of animals/plants killed through recurring oil spills etc.) and many others.

I, for one, would be simply happy if Sikhs would start to see each other as brothers and sisters and not insult each other based on Rehat differences, claims to superiority of their own group etc. rather than tear each other apart through words and actions. Or that the Sikhs begin to stop being so self-centered and understanding and highlighting human suffering such as Darfur along with their own and start to work on the human condition (for me, no point being sympathetic to cows and slaughtering humans. Go kick a cow in India - you and your family would be massacred. So much for the sacredness of human life ).

To this, I leave the thought of Bhagat Puran Singh Ji - a man who saw a problem and did something about it devotedly for his entire life. May we all DO SOMETHING with that which aches our heart and Guru Sahib support us in that cause. Otherwise, talk is cheap and plenty - and I got plenty of the cheap stuff.

Bhai Sahib when I was using the word (ਮਲੇਛ) I was not meaning it in a derogatory way even though it might seems so. To me ਮਲੇਛ simply means someone who is outside of Sikhi, and commits 4 bajjar kurehits. My point I was making that in the past Puratan Singhs had the liberty to deal and exchange with those whom had high principles while those of us living in the West deal with the ਮਲੇਛ on a daily basis. Perhaps you are right using the word ਮਲੇਛ may have been a poor choice of words due to its negative connotations . Maybe I should of said instead.

Just to be clear Im not saying Gursikhs with a vegan diet are more superior to Vegetarian Gursikhs or meat eating Gursikhs for that matter. All Im saying is one should be conscience about what they put in ones mouth. We eat three times a day thus;as Gursikhs and human beings we should think where and how this food got to our plate. I dont expect everyone to have extreme strict standards but since this is a Gurmat forum I see no harm in discussing strict standards which are pleasing to Guru Sahib. If any one was offended or felt belittled by my post then please forgive me. My intention was not to belittle but instead inform. When someone is compassionate about a subject they often say to focused on the subject and neglect the feelings of others which I have probably done. Hopefully, in the future I can be more alert to people feelings when discussing Gurmat. Again sorry if anybody has been upset about my beliefs about inhumane tolerance.

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

Per what little history I know, Sikhs did conduct business with non-Sikhs and did not exclude non-Sikhs. One example that comes to mind is horse-trading, which was conducted in areas like Afghanistan and Central Asia. The dealings of the Tenth Patshahi was with non-Sikhs as well, as some of the army was paid mercenaries.

Chalo...

Your compassion is heart-felt and genuine and I don't think anyone would ever fault you for it (least of all California rural types). As long as others reading this forum get all sides of the discussion and understand that such issues have a myriad of angles and perspectives, it's all good. At the least, it raised awareness of the plight of our bovine beings.

Shaitan Da Vakeel (Devil's Advocate).

Just to add my two pence to the debate, last year I went back to my pind in Punjab. Both my chache keep all their cows, buffalos and oxs' in an area at the front of our house. I remember sitting on my manja one morning having a hot cup of cha watching my chacha feed the animals. He would feed the small baby buffaloes and cows, water them before moving onto the adult livestock. He had a really good system. I watched amazed at how the animals reacted to him, they understod all his actions. Beautiful awesome creatures. My chachi would do most of the milking taking her steel balti and resting on her heels. It was amazed how much love they showed to the animals so I asked them about this. They responded that it was important to treat them right, feed them well, when they got sick them would get medical treatment, all this so that they produce lots of milk.

The milk they collect would be sold to a local Dairy Farm. The rest would be used at home to drink, make yoghurt or makhan.

As I sat there, a couple of questions came to mind. I asked considering all the love they have for the animals most of which were born in the house, what happens when they die? The cows are so big, how do you pick them up, how many Singhs does it take and what do you do, where do you do the sanskar?

They answered, oh no we don't let them die in the house. When they get old and stop producing as much milk they become useless to us. We call a guy who comes and pick the animal up. These people then slaughter the animal and then use the skin for leather and the mass for meat.

I was like your kidding...........these animals are like your children how can you do that to them. They replied that's the way its always been in the pinds. The animals are good for milk, they stop producing they get rid.

At the end of the day there really isn't much difference bewteen the way we get milk in the west as opposed to India. The cows are used for milk and when they cant do that they are doomed.

That is very nice discussion. Good points raised and responded. Veer ms514 is excellant in responding. There is nothing here to make it closed topic.Those who find the topic, uninteresting and useles may plesae avoid it.

Compassion is not selective. More compassinate will radiate it more. Less will show less. Young Guru HarRai Sahib Ji was taught to be careful while walking, so that no flower gets plucked accidently. Guru Nanak Dev Sahib Ji was compassinate to the animals, who grazed freely under his supervision, at Talwandi.

Yet, we are practical. We faught and killed the inhuman. While fighting inhuman, we are also being insensitive to the feelings and pains of the relatives of the enemies. Children lose a father; when the Dushat father is done away. Guru Gobind Singh Ji gifted Gold with his arrows, but not the whole Sikh army did so. Yes, we are practical men.

Our compassion for animals should also be reflected in our compassion to other human beings. One cannot be insensetive to human and sensitive to animals. No one is enemy or BEIGANA to us. No one is ਮਲੇਛ for being a non sikh. (I agree with Veer Sukhdeep Singh Ji that he used this term simply to define a group. No further discussion on side topic, pl)

May be, we can say that some Rehats are REHATS and thus must for us. And what we are discussing about is not a REHAT, but reflection of your being a REHATWAAN Singh.