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Bibek and Consuming Dairy Products

Posted by Sukhdeep Singh

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Sukhdeep Singh

Re: Bibek and Consuming Dairy Products
February 16, 2011 08:54PM

This is very interesting Avtar SIngh. I had no idea cows were slaughtered in India. I thought they were treated with more reverence. I too remember when I went to India my uncle was treating the cow as a pet, and the cow had twinkle in its eye. It was a great moment to see the cow gave milk .Next time I see him I will ask him what happens to the cow after it doesnt give milk.

On a side note, and I hate to be nosey but Singhs are not suppose to drink tea ( caffeine) since caffeine is a drug. Sorry for being to critical just though you might want to know.

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Upkaar Singh

Re: Bibek and Consuming Dairy Products
February 16, 2011 10:52PM

Vaheguroo Jee
I did not want to get into this discussion, but I do want to state one thing.

ARE YOU SERIOUS ?

How do you expect to make Pacham Amrit Deg ? without butter/gheo ?

Doesn't that come from milk (dairy product)

or are we going to now discuss about how deg was made and whether it was started during Guroo Sahib's time or after.

Let's get this straight, no dairy products = No yummy deg that we all love to lick off our fingers after keertans and samagams.

I am not an animal rights activist, but even I am totally against the inhumane treatment they go through.
two things are important here, its the animals karmaa and their joon that they suffer this.
secondly, it is not us, who choose for these animals to go to slaughterhouses and live in harsh conditions.
those people who DO do such things will eventually become cows and goats themselves, and get a first hand feel of what it is like.

END OF DISCUSSION

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simmal tree

Re: Bibek and Consuming Dairy Products
February 17, 2011 03:00AM

Waheguru ji ka khalsa Waheguru ji ki fateh!

Daas would like to humbly offer some clarifications from the perspective of someone who is currently 95% vegan (degh being the only exception).

MISCONCEPTION: Sikhs who are vegan are against milk and butter. FALSE.
The Singhs and Kaurs who are vegan have nothing against milk and butter. As mentioned previously in this thread, Guru Sahib has said that milk and butter are pure - Guru Nanak Dev ji used the example of milk in the Malik Bhago and Bhai Lalo sakhi with the two rotis. Guru Sahib made butter a central ingredient of degh. So, these Sikhs are not against the concept of dairy. They are doing a political protest against the inhumanity of the dairy industry - and all of the Gursikhs around the world should support them and be proud of them. When Bhai Sahib Bhai Randheer Singh ji went on a hunger strike because he wasn't being given the oil to care for his kes, he was not opposed to the concept of eating food - he was protesting to the inhumanity of being prevented from keeping his rehit. If he could not keep his rehit, he couldn't eat. So, in the vegan Sikhs protest it should be understand that for all Sikhs, our rehit is to eat food that is from honest work, and does not cause suffering. Every Sikh should be doing this protest and maybe there will be a bunch of Khalsa farms! I would love to eat dairy if the cows were not given hormones, not tortured, and not sent to slaughter.

MISCONCEPTION: There's nothing we can do about it. FALSE
The Punjabi Sikh community is one of the largest consumers of dairy on a per capita basis. Look at our dietary habits - we put butter, lassi, dahee, dudh, paneer in everything we eat. Having pizza is not enough we need to have paneer pizza. Having daal roti is not enough, we need shahi paneer for langar. If all of the Punjabi Sikh community and all of the Gurdwara Sahibs did a protest against the dairy industry, it might cause them to do something, but the best solution is for Gursikhs to have dairy farms. There is a lot we can do about it - we are just lazy.

MISCONCEPTION: It is not an important issue. FALSE
Would you go to a butcher's shop, and buy milk from the butcher's hands? If you are drinking milk today - no matter if you boil it, no matter if you put it in a sarbloh bata, the source of it is from a factory farm, and the majority of those cows have suffered their whole lives, been loaded with hormones, and will be sent to a slaughterhouse. Even if you're drinking organic, free range farm milk, those cows will be sent for slaughter and they do suffer a lot in the way normal American / Canadian factories treat them. If you believe in bibek, then you must believe in the energies of simran and naam from gursikhs, as well as negative vibrations from manmukhs. Then how can you ignore negative vibrations from cows that are being tortured? If a human mother suffering from illness can give her child illness through the milk, why is it difficult to understand that a lot of the illnesses that we have now are linked to our paap of torturing cows for milk? This is a very important animal rights issue in the Sikh community and in honour of Guru Har Rai ji's gurgadi divas and Sikh Environment Day on March 14, we should do something about it.

How can we misuse the name of Mata Khivi Ji, and make kheer from this milk:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RNFFRGz1Qs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbdFOUbUZwQ

bhul chuk maaf karnaa ji

Waheguru ji ka khalsa Waheguru ji ki fateh!

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Sukhdeep Singh

Re: Bibek and Consuming Dairy Products
February 17, 2011 09:24AM

ms514 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH
>
> Per what little history I know, Sikhs did conduct
> business with non-Sikhs and did not exclude
> non-Sikhs. One example that comes to mind is
> horse-trading, which was conducted in areas like
> Afghanistan and Central Asia. The dealings of the
> Tenth Patshahi was with non-Sikhs as well, as some
> of the army was paid mercenaries.
>

Bhai Sahib perhaps I should have been more clear. What I meant to say is Puratan Singhs kept mainly kept resources within the community. Similar to the Hasidic Community and Nation of Islam. Yes, if there was a lack of certain merchandise/resources they would go outside of the community to acquire these goods, but these goods were for the betterment of the community, and not for the individuals own profit.

Puratan Singhs did not think like self interested individuals. There is nothing wrong with having friendly, hospitable, and diplomatic relations with other communities/nations, but in puaratan times Khalsa mainly give and took within their own community. If we had a similar mentality in modern times there would be no issue on where to get dairy. If we raise our children to be community orientated since birth and give them rehat like Sarab Loh BIbek at a young age they will grow to be Gurmukh sevadars instead of self-interested nihilist which is becoming a popular trend. In the West, we could only consider the cities like Surrey and Southall to be the closest thing to a Sikh community. Unfortunately, these places like basic rehat, and people even eat freely from non-Gursikhs. One can have a better understanding the legal, economical, and political systems of the puratan Singhs by studying the rehatnamey.

Upkaar Singh- I have mentioned in numerous post in this thread that a Gursikh can fullly never be vegan because their is butter in degh, and one cannot change the recipe of deg which was given by Guru Sahib. If one really needs degh they should have so in small amounts. The true butter is in Naam. Brother, this is the butter we should be making efforts to taste

ਹਰਿ ਕਾ ਬਿਲੋਵਨਾ ਬਿਲੋਵਹੁ ਮੇਰੇ ਭਾਈ ॥
ਸਹਜਿ ਬਿਲੋਵਹੁ ਜੈਸੇ ਤਤੁ ਨ ਜਾਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

and the sweetest milk is naam. This milk we should never renounce.

ਬਿਸਅਰ ਦੁਧ ਪੀਆਈਐ ਉਹ ਬਿਖ ਨਹੀ ਛੋਰ ।

ਗਰਦਬ ਸੁਗੰਧ ਲਗਾਈਐ ਭੁਇਂ ਸੁੱਤਾ ਲੋਰੈ

but this milk can only ascend to the tongue by practicing GUrmat Virtues like contentment, kindness and COMPASSION.

ਦੂਧੁ ਕਰਮੁ ਸੰਤੋਖੁ ਘੀਉ ਕਰਿ ਐਸਾ ਮਾਂਗਉ ਦਾਨੁ ॥੩॥
ਖਿਮਾ ਧੀਰਜੁ ਕਰਿ ਗਊ ਲਵੇਰੀ ਸਹਜੇ ਬਛਰਾ ਖੀਰੁ ਪੀਐ ॥

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JaspreetSingh

Re: Bibek and Consuming Dairy Products
February 17, 2011 09:53AM

Quote

Waheguru ji ka khalsa Waheguru ji ki fateh!

Daas would like to humbly offer some clarifications from the perspective of someone who is currently 95% vegan (degh being the only exception).

MISCONCEPTION: Sikhs who are vegan are against milk and butter. FALSE.
The Singhs and Kaurs who are vegan have nothing against milk and butter. As mentioned previously in this thread, Guru Sahib has said that milk and butter are pure - Guru Nanak Dev ji used the example of milk in the Malik Bhago and Bhai Lalo sakhi with the two rotis. Guru Sahib made butter a central ingredient of degh. So, these Sikhs are not against the concept of dairy. They are doing a political protest against the inhumanity of the dairy industry - and all of the Gursikhs around the world should support them and be proud of them. When Bhai Sahib Bhai Randheer Singh ji went on a hunger strike because he wasn't being given the oil to care for his kes, he was not opposed to the concept of eating food - he was protesting to the inhumanity of being prevented from keeping his rehit. If he could not keep his rehit, he couldn't eat. So, in the vegan Sikhs protest it should be understand that for all Sikhs, our rehit is to eat food that is from honest work, and does not cause suffering. Every Sikh should be doing this protest and maybe there will be a bunch of Khalsa farms! I would love to eat dairy if the cows were not given hormones, not tortured, and not sent to slaughter.

MISCONCEPTION: There's nothing we can do about it. FALSE
The Punjabi Sikh community is one of the largest consumers of dairy on a per capita basis. Look at our dietary habits - we put butter, lassi, dahee, dudh, paneer in everything we eat. Having pizza is not enough we need to have paneer pizza. Having daal roti is not enough, we need shahi paneer for langar. If all of the Punjabi Sikh community and all of the Gurdwara Sahibs did a protest against the dairy industry, it might cause them to do something, but the best solution is for Gursikhs to have dairy farms. There is a lot we can do about it - we are just lazy.

MISCONCEPTION: It is not an important issue. FALSE
Would you go to a butcher's shop, and buy milk from the butcher's hands? If you are drinking milk today - no matter if you boil it, no matter if you put it in a sarbloh bata, the source of it is from a factory farm, and the majority of those cows have suffered their whole lives, been loaded with hormones, and will be sent to a slaughterhouse. Even if you're drinking organic, free range farm milk, those cows will be sent for slaughter and they do suffer a lot in the way normal American / Canadian factories treat them. If you believe in bibek, then you must believe in the energies of simran and naam from gursikhs, as well as negative vibrations from manmukhs. Then how can you ignore negative vibrations from cows that are being tortured? If a human mother suffering from illness can give her child illness through the milk, why is it difficult to understand that a lot of the illnesses that we have now are linked to our paap of torturing cows for milk? This is a very important animal rights issue in the Sikh community and in honour of Guru Har Rai ji's gurgadi divas and Sikh Environment Day on March 14, we should do something about it.

How can we misuse the name of Mata Khivi Ji, and make kheer from this milk:
[www.youtube.com]

[www.youtube.com]

bhul chuk maaf karnaa ji

Waheguru ji ka khalsa Waheguru ji ki fateh!

So long there is Kaljug, there is going to be PAAP. Whether it be adultery, killing/slautering any sort of being, including a cow, torturing beings, backbiting, doing drugs, or anything, it will always be there. For us to think that if we take the initiative to help stop the slautering of cows, then we are mistaken. This treatment that these cows get is because their Karma. There is no other reason. We can not change the destiny that someonw ultimately has to go through. For you to think that if Gursikhs drink milk, we are putting a load on our shoulders for which we will have to pay for, you are mistaken. Gurmat is above "Pun and Paap"(good and bad deeds). What you and Sukhdeep Singh are discussing and trying to enforce is basically the theory of "Pun-Paap", that certain actions are good, while other certain actions are bad.If we stop drinking milk, it is does not hinder the dairy farmers from carrying out this vicious act. As Gurbaani states:

ਪਾਪੁ ਬੁਰਾ ਪਾਪੀ ਕਉ ਪਿਆਰਾ ॥

Only Paapis will continue to do Paap, because it is pleasing to them. They love doing Paap. If we stop consuming dairy products, it will not make them stop torturing animals. Their minds are filled with Haumai, they have not conquered the five evils. They're all Patits, then how do you expect them to do something that's grateful? Gurbaani states:

ਮਾਨੁਖ ਕੀ ਟੇਕ ਬ੍ਰਿਥੀ ਸਭ ਜਾਨੁ ॥

If we put our faith in people, thinking that if we do a certain thing, the person would be pleased with us, and do this, then we have not understood the Word(Shabad). We have not listened to the Naad. We have not engaged in Naam Abhyiaas. It clearly shows we have no Kamaai. These cows are suffering because their jooni. They can not japp Naam because they are stuck in Chauraasi Lakh Joon, in this case, a cow, and therefore, will have to face severe consequences. Those that are torturing them are only paying Lekha, for which they had to go through. These cows will eventually have to also take the form of a human, and do the same unto them, then we will be defending those people, who will be cows then, and going through the severe punishments. It is all in the Hukam of Guroo-Akaal Purakh ji.

ਐਥੈ ਕਮਾਵੈ ਸੋ ਫਲੁ ਪਾਵੈ ਮਨਮੁਖਿ ਹੈ ਪਤਿ ਖੋਈ ॥
As one acts here, so does he obtain his rewards; the self-willed manmukh loses his honor.

Ultimately, all beings will be saved, liberated, and that's if they are born as humans, and blessed with Gursikhi. Who knows what each one of us on this forum have been in past lives, and under what conditions we had to live through. Who knows how many countles Paaps we have committed in past lives? Who knows how many beings we have tortured? BUT, if it pleasing to Guroo Sahib, then he will do Mercy, and save us all!

ਚਹੁ ਜੁਗਾ ਕਾ ਹੁਣਿ ਨਿਬੇੜਾ ਨਰ ਮਨੁਖਾ ਨੋ ਏਕੁ ਨਿਧਾਨਾ ॥
Now, this is the essence of the teachings of the four ages: for the human race, the Name of the One Lord is the greatest treasure.

I urge/request all of you to read the book "Gurmat Adhiaatam Karam Philosophy", written Panth Rattan, Khalse Panth di Sohn di Chirri, Bhai Sahib Bhai Randheer Singh Ji (Narangwal). This book will open your eyes.

Vaheguroo Ji Ka Khalsa Vaheguroo Ji Ki Fatheh

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MB Singh

Re: Bibek and Consuming Dairy Products
February 17, 2011 06:41PM

Should an animal being treated with cruelty, be our source of milk is the simple question, under discussion. Should we do something to stop it? Can we do something? --------- Yes, we can, we should take tiny steps. I dont think, if there is any logic in trying to prove that because this is their (animals) fate written in their Karma; so we are justified in closing our eyes to cruelty. Kooka Movement related with freedom struggle in India was due to their concern for slaughtering. If we fail in our efforts, we are justified to read animals karama in this failure. But doing little things and managing our own personal Bibek is welcome step in this direction.

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Sukhdeep Singh

Re: Bibek and Consuming Dairy Products
February 17, 2011 08:17PM

JaspreetSingh Wrote:

>
> So long there is Kaljug, there is going to be
> PAAP. Whether it be adultery, killing/slautering
> any sort of being, including a cow, torturing
> beings, backbiting, doing drugs, or anything, it
> will always be there. For us to think that if we
> take the initiative to help stop the slautering of
> cows, then we are mistaken. This treatment that
> these cows get is because their Karma. There is no
> other reason. We can not change the destiny that
> someonw ultimately has to go through. For you to
> think that if Gursikhs drink milk, we are putting
> a load on our shoulders for which we will have to
> pay for, you are mistaken. Gurmat is above "Pun
> and Paap"(good and bad deeds). What you and
> Sukhdeep Singh are discussing and trying to
> enforce is basically the theory of "Pun-Paap",
> that certain actions are good, while other certain
> actions are bad.If we stop drinking milk, it is
> does not hinder the dairy farmers from carrying
> out this vicious act. As Gurbaani states:
>
> ਪਾਪੁ ਬੁਰਾ ਪਾਪੀ ਕਉ
> ਪਿਆਰਾ ॥

Baba Ji you make some good points about karma, but I think you are confused about Pun and Paap theory. If a Gursikh chooses right actions according to Gurmat ( Hukum) and avoids bad actions according to Gurmat ( Hukum) then they are not subscribing to PUN Paap philosophy of other faiths; instead, they are practicing Gurmat Bibek/follwing God's Hukum. A person who follows Gurus hukums does so through obedience. This obedience breaks the haumi of the sevak. It has nothing to do with pun and paap of other faiths, but it has everything to do with following GUru Sahibs hukum in practicing compassion, and losing ones ego by doing so.

Yes, you are right people suffer according to their karma, but you are neglecting some of the main principles and virtues of Sikhi which are Daya and Khima. Guru Sahib says without Daya a person cannot be Dharmic because Daya is the father of Dharma.
ਧੌਲੁ ਧਰਮੁ ਦਇਆ ਕਾ ਪੂਤੁ ॥

You are suggesting that beings suffer due to their karma and thus we shouldnt care what pain they go through. In Sikhi, God is compassionate and merciful. We too should adopt these qualities. We should not have a revengeful, angry, or insensitive attitude to those beings that have committed paap in previous life. Instead we should wish good ( comfort and health ) for such beings.
ਫਰੀਦਾ ਬੁਰੇ ਦਾ ਭਲਾ ਕਰਿ ਗੁਸਾ ਮਨਿ ਨ ਹਢਾਇ ॥

Again it is Guru Sahibs hukum to practice compassion and lose ones ego by being obedient to his Hukum of practicing compassion with humility. A person who no longer wants to drink milk due to the suffering of cows is doing out of compassion and humilty according to his Gurus hukum. If you dont feel the same in your heart then you should not discourage others. There is no Hukum in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji that clearly states do not eat eggs. But sojhi Singhs know its GUrus Hukum to practice compassion so they dont eat eggs. By obeying his Hukum can we go above pap-punn, leyna-deyana, and trigun.

ਅਲਪ ਅਹਾਰ ਸੁਲਾਪ ਸੀ ਨਿੰਦ੍ਰਾ ਦਯਾ ਛਿਮਾ ਤਨ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ॥
ਸੀਲ ਸੰਤੋਖ ਸਦਾ ਨਿਰਬਾਹਿਬੋ ਹ੍ਵੈਬੋ ਤ੍ਰਿਗੁਣ ਅਤੀਤਿ ॥੨॥

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JaspreetSingh

Re: Bibek and Consuming Dairy Products
February 17, 2011 08:50PM

Sukhdeep Singh, you don't sound much of a conservative Sikh here, more of a liberal Sikh........ hot smiley

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