Sarab Loh and Dairy Products

In the old days Puratan Singhs raised and milked their own cows. So Bibek was not an issue.
I was wondering how do those that dont live in the West receive "Satogun" based milk. Meaning how does
one get milk from someone who is Rehatvan, does honest work and treats livestock accordingly to Gurmat.

Bhai Randhir Singh ji states

ਜਿਸ ਖਾਣੇ ਦੇ ਖਾਣ ਕਰਕੇ ਤਨ ਨਾ ਪੀੜੀਦਾ ਹੋਵੇ, ਜਿਸ ਅਹਾਰ ਦੇ ਭੁਚਣ ਕਰਿ ਮਨ ਮਹਿ ਵਿਕਾਰ ਨ ਚਲਣ, ਓੁਹ ਖਾਨਾ, ਅਹਾਰ ਸਤੋ ਗੁਣੀ ਅਹਾਰ ( ਖਾਨਾ)
ਹੈ.

Meaning one should not eat food that causes pain to the body and instability to the mind. Instead one should eat food which is healthy/truthful.

If a cow is: getting force fed, has its tail chopped off, taken away from its newborn does this not effect the cows blood ( milk). If a cows body is going through pain, and mind is being immersed in vikaars ( anger) through its mistreatment doesnt this have effect on the milk it produces. So is such milk satogn or tamogun ( negative)?

Would Bhai Randhir Singh Ji drink such negative-milk. Or would he make an acception so he doesnt have to give up his gulam jamun and ladoos. I remember in Jail he would not drink milk that wasnt milked by a Rehatvan Singh. If this is the case why do we openly receive milk from those that commit Bajar Kurehits. A person can boil the milk as long as they want this doesnt make it Bibek.

Isnt it more practical for Gurudwara Sahibs to have their own cows for those Sarab Loh BIbekees who drink milk on a regular basis? Otherwise we should just switch to Almond milk or Soy Milk???

Raw milk is better, it is more healthy because it contains nutrients and is even known to cure things like eczema. Google the benefits of it.
The process involved for pasterurised and homogeniezed milk alter the properties of milk and it's not that healthy. There is only a small risk with raw milk of causing food poisoning but the solution is to just boil the milk. For cows to produce safe raw milk they have to be happy and healthy. With processed milk it doesn't matter how the cows are treated because the milk is sterilised. So for moral and health issues raw milk is best. Now the argument that we should avoid milk because cows and sent to be slaughtered is a silly one. Sikhi is about now, we do not think about what may happen in future. A good point by Sukhdeep Singh is that we should have some care how cows are treated NOW. If raw milk is difficult to purchase, then organic is this next best thing.
How is water cleaned? by washing water with water? No, water is cleaned by boiling it, same principle can be used for milk. Raw milk should definately be boiled since human contact is made with milk. All we have to do now is to try to find a local organic farmer to make regular purchases of raw milk.
One cannot pick and choose, to say milk is a no no but a little degh is ok is hypocrisy.

Sukhdeep Singh jeeo, you are correct in pointing out that it is best if Singhs milk cows directly and also organize dairy farms to ensure that animals are treated as per Gurmat. You are talking about the most ideal situation but unfortunately, it is not possible for everyone to own a dairy farm or have access to a dairy farm run by Gurmukhs.

The goal of human life is attainment of Vaheguru. To attain Vaheguru, while one needs to follow Gurmat, one of the most fundamental requirement is to have human body. To meet Vaheguru, human body is required and to maintain human body, certain diet is required. The bottom line is that as humans, we can only eat living things and cannot consume non-living matter. Whether you eat plants or animals, either way there is some Karma associated with it but Gurmat has chosen such diet for Gursikhs that is both nourishing for the body and also has least negative Karma. Guru Sahib has chosen for us diet that includes plants, dairy products, honey etc. As Veer Jaskirat Singh wrote in one of his posts, Bhai Jagtar Singh considered milk to be one of the most blessed food. Gurbani has praised milk with the adjective Amrit.

Knowing very well that Gurmat allows dairy products, still some modern Gursikhs, under the influences of propaganda of animal rights organizations, are not only themselves adopting the vegan diet but also leading many other Gursikhs astray. Dairy products and honey are accepted Gurmat diets and no Gursikh should have a doubt about it.

Since it is not possible for every Gursikh to have access to Gurmukh-run dairy farms, and since dairy products are a must to maintain the human body, it is better to consume dairy products than becoming a pure vegan. Pure vegans are known to take artificial supplements multi-vitamins and Vitamin B vitamins etc. to compensate for not eating dairy products. I am not sure if such diet of supplements (for non-medical reasons) is even Bibek.

You have to make a choice. There are two options:

Giving up Dairy Products out of compassion for ill-treated cows

Pros:
1. You gain good Karma for showing compassion and you avoid negative Karma of being part of injustice to cows.
2. Your expression of compassion may enhance your Naam Kamaaee.

Cons:
1. It may effect your body negatively and your body may become diseased.
2. You may have to compromise with your Bibek by taking vitamin supplements for non-medical reasons.
3. To be a true Vegan, you will have to avoid Degh. If you decide to accept Degh, you will lose any benefits you were going to incur by giving up dairy diet.
4. By giving up Degh, you will be deprived of Kirpa of Guru Sahib, that comes through consuming Degh.
5. The Khalsa concept of Garam Jal, Samunder, Panjva etc. will not be relevant in your life.

Not Giving up Dairy Products, despite knowing about the ill-treatment of cows

Pros:
1. Your precious body will be maintained through milk and dairy products.
2. If you body is healthy, you can engage in Naam Kamaaee more vigorously and have a higher chance of meeting Vaheguru.
3. If your body perishes due to lack of dairy consumption, the loss will be much bigger than the gain of showing compassion to cows. Who knows when you would get the human body again.
4. You can continue enjoying Degh, the most tasty food in the world after Khande Pahul.
5. Dairy builds a strong body that can be used for Sewa, and other duties of Khalsa e.g. shaheedi while fighting injustice.

Cons:
1. You will have to bear some negative Karma associated with ill-treatment of cows.


Another Viewpoint

Sukhdeep Singh jeeo, you have very diligently pointed out that the milk that we get now a days comes through ill-treatment of cows but what about other foods e.g. wheat, vegetables, pulses etc. that are grown on farms where labourers working in fields are grossly ill-treated? You have to pretty much boycott all food that is grown in India, Pakistan, South-America, Africa and other such countries. You may not have witnessed but the treatment that agriculture workers in India get, is far worse than how cows are treated in Western countries. Many of the agriculture workers are kids and over-loaded women. Rape, sexual assault of women workers and even children workers by landowners is a common occurrence in farms in the aforementioned countries. Just go to any village in India and live there for sometime and you will find out that the conditions are worse than stated here. Bonded labour is common and so is exploitation of kids. Cows are at least not sexually assaulted by the owners as agriculture workers are.

Everyone talks about ill-treatment of cows but no one talks about ill-treatment of humans workers in agriculture farms. You advocate giving up dairy products due to ill-treatment of cows; are you also going to adopt, preach and advocate giving up all food e.g. wheat, grains, vegetables etc. because of severe ill-treatment of humans on farms where they are grown?

As stated before, everything that we eat has some negative Karma associated with it but this Karma is greatly reduced because firstly, we pay for what we eat, secondly, we eat what Guru Sahib has instructed us to eat and thirdly, Naam Abhyaas burns such bad Karma. It is much more important to maintain the precious human body within the constraints of Gurmat, than it is to destroy the body by giving up dairy products or other foods because of Karmic considerations. We are not Buddhists who consider Karma to be all-powerful.

Guru Sahib knows better. I could be wrong. May Guru Sahib forgive our mistakes while discussing Gurmat.

Daas,
Kulbir Singh

Not everyone is ill treating cows. Here are some people who treat cows as pets and look how cows get there to give milk by themself. Hope is there. Organic milk is good option in the absence of one's own cow.

Bhai Jagtar Singh Ji was 100 percent correct when he said milk is blessed food. Why is this sweet substance so blessed? Because it comes from a sweet animal, and because of its sweet nature the cow gives milk. A snake cannot give milk because of its callous disposition. But lets get some medical facts right about Milk. Milk has high saturated fat those people who drink Milk in abundance eventually get their arteries clogged and their bodies become weak. To say we need lots of milk to have strong bodies is not right according to medical professions. For those who want milk, drinking milk in moderation is ok as it has some nutrition. But Its main health benefits are protein and calcium. Almonds have more then twice the amount of calcium and protein then milk.

If some informed Bhai Sahib about the lack of sucham and other practices that go on in Western farming he would not drink such milk. For example Baby calves are fed meat. When cows eat meat diseases occur. This is why think like Mad COw Diseases have been occuring. Through the influence of the wealth diary industry; media has done an excellent job in covering up the causes for diseases like Mad Cow Disease. As Gursikhs we are to eat food associated with Satogun not Tamogun.

A Sikh is not a Sikh by eating Degh, milk, butter etc. A SIkh is a Sikh by following GUrmat principles. When I go to the Gurdwara I dont eat degh because its not preprated in Sarab Loh by AMritDhari Gursikh. Does this make me less of a SIkh? If Degh is prepared by butter that came from milk squeezed by a nigura then this too cannot be considered as degh. Technically speaking unless you own your own cow or know a rehavan SIngh who owns one the degh you eat is not Bibek.

Animal rights group have no influence on me. Your statement "Everyone talks about ill-treatment of cows but no one talks about ill-treatment of humans workers in agriculture farms. You advocate giving up dairy products due to ill-treatment of cows; are you also going to adopt, preach and advocate giving up all food "

This is the type of things people say when I tell them I dont eat meat for ethical reasons. They tell me "why do you drive a car . Dont insects die when you drive a car.?" If I tell people to stop eating halal due to animal cruelty does this mean I expect them to stop eating food. No of course not. I simply made a suggestion to sangat that they should try to be more compassionate, and not put things in their body that will effect their jeevan.

When Guru Sahib uses amrit as an Adjective he is not praising milk ( kheer) instead he is praising langar which taste sweet due to the naam abhyiaas put in it. Guru Sahib uses the word Kheer because it rhymes with Khivi. If you honestly believe Guru Sahib thinks drinking milk at the expense of a sentient beings suffering is ok then I dont know what else to say.

Punjabis have history of high cholesterol my family is no exception. Our ancestors drank milk in abundace because of its easy access. IF they had the modern technology and knoweldge that we have today they would not drink so much milk. I know people from Punjab love their dairy products and they cannot give up their laddos and gulab jaman. Im not asking them too. All Im asking if you are going to use such things use them in moderation and with a conscious minds. You will thank me when the cholesterol goes down, and food is more easy to digest. When we follow Gurmat Principles we should understand the reason behind following them. One of the reasons we dont eat meat is out of compassion. Guru Sahib told us not to eat Halal because of the cruelty to the animal behind it. IF we know something has negative karma why continue eating it or why justifiy eating it especially since there are alternatives. A person can live without dairy. those vegans who take vitamins do so because they are used to eating processed foods and thus lack vitamins. If someone already has bibek diet Vitamins is not an issue. All the arguments you use for keeping dairy which are focused on the strength of the body to continue Bhagti could have easily been used by the SInghs in the jungle to justify the eating of meat. When we die we die the body is only temporary. If we did in this body, and did not attain WaaheGuru but followed his principles we will get the body of a Gursikh again and we can continue our Bhagti through his kirpa.

Sukhdeep Singh jeeo, you have not addressed the issues raised in my post and have just repeated your previous messages. In any case, if not consuming dairy products helps you spiritually, then by all means continue doing so.

Kulbir Singh

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Guru Sahib uses the word Kheer because it rhymes with Khivi.

Wah! Thank God we have you to interpret Gurbani in new light. We would've never known that Guru Sahib was so concerned with rhyming words and use of "kheer" had no other purpose but to rhyme it with Khivi. Too bad He didn't say "Kheeree" to make it more rhythmic. All this time I thought it was “Jaisee Mei(n) Aavay Khasam Ki Bani” and “Dhur Ki Bani Aayee”.

Sukhdeep Singh, please shed some light on the following points;

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If Degh is prepared by butter that came from milk squeezed by a nigura then this too cannot be considered as degh. Technically speaking unless you own your own cow or know a rehavan SIngh who owns one the degh you eat is not Bibek.

Please tell us where exactly you found this new idea from? How do you reach this conclusion? Which gursikh's have you consulted before giving birth to such a ridiculous theory? Again and again, it has been told that the certain ingredients have been freely accepted as 'pavitar'. Butter from milk is one of those ingredients. What an earth inspires you to come out with such crazy ideas? Please don't belittle hundreds of Rehitvaan Gursikhs who keep Bibek by stating your new and baseless ideas.

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When Guru Sahib uses amrit as an Adjective he is not praising milk ( kheer) instead he is praising langar which taste sweet due to the naam abhyiaas put in it. Guru Sahib uses the word Kheer because it rhymes with Khivi. If you honestly believe Guru Sahib thinks drinking milk at the expense of a sentient beings suffering is ok then I dont know what else to say.

Vaheguru ji! I had to read over this thrice to make sure I read it correctly. Are you seriously suggesting that the word "Kheer" appears in Gurbani just for rhymes sake? Are you serious? Please do not belittle Gurbani. You are nothing compared to Guru Sahibaans and please don't again try and belittle Gurbani of Guru Sahib by stating such absurdity again. Gurbani came from Sackhand and nothing has been written for rhymes sake. Also just to add, "Kheer" doesn't even rhyme with "Khivi".

Gurbani is praising Mata khivi ji's seva that Mata ji done selflessly by serving amrit like kheer. You should not suggest otherwise. We all know by now, anything that isn't prepared by a Rehitvaan gursikh whilst reciting Naam or Gurbani cannot be fit for consumption amongst gursikhs. The word "Kheer" does not appear for rhymes sake but because Mata Khivi ji is remembered and praised for serving amrit like Kheer to all. Kheer was and still is today, no poor man's food. Only those who can afford milk could make this and the poor could only dream to eat it. Mata Khivi ji done an amazing service upon all who came to Guru Sahib's langar and all those who received amrit like kheer left satisfied.

Lastly, I did not wish to get into a discussion with you on any level especially not on the fruitless topics you have been posting. If you are going to start threads and voice your views, you need to be able to reply to gursikhs who reply to you constructively. What gets frustrating is when you totally dismiss a post that makes perfect sense and instead, you start to give birth to new ideas without combating answers given to you. Please continue on your vegan adventure and leave Gursikhs who enjoy Milk to do so. I’ve never heard of a single Gursikh from history or in India who has objected to dairy. Nothing you will say will justify no Degh, kheer or gheo in Langar. Please use your time on engaging in Naam and Gurbani. It will bring good karma on you and hopefully on the cows supplying us milk too.

Gustakhi maaf karni sangat ji.

H.S

Bijla Singh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Guru Sahib uses the word Kheer because it rhymes
> with Khivi.
>
> Wah! Thank God we have you to interpret Gurbani in
> new light. We would've never known that Guru Sahib
> was so concerned with rhyming words and use of
> "kheer" had no other purpose but to rhyme it with
> Khivi. Too bad He didn't say "Kheeree" to make it
> more rhythmic. All this time I thought it was
> “Jaisee Mei(n) Aavay Khasam Ki Bani” and
> “Dhur Ki Bani Aayee”.

Bhai Sahib, Gurbani is WaaheGurus poetry and it is not simple poetry where only one poetic device is used as it seems you are suggesting with the comment about kheeree. Using the same sound of the ending of words to rhyme is not the only poetic device used in Gurbani. For example, take the words Khiri and Khivi in the following verses

ਬਲਵੰਡ ਖੀਵੀ ਨੇਕ ਜਨ ਜਿਸੁ ਬਹੁਤੀ ਛਾਉ ਪਤ੍ਰਾਲੀ ॥
ਲੰਗਰਿ ਦਉਲਤਿ ਵੰਡੀਐ ਰਸੁ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਖੀਰਿ ਘਿਆਲੀ ॥

which are used so beautifully poetically. The beginning consonant sounds Kh are used in both Khiri and Khivi this poetic device is known as alliteration . These words also follow under poetic device consonance since vowel letter I is repeated in both words to rhyme.

Post any pangti of Gurbani and I will show you how many words have poetic devices. Bhai Randhir Singh Ji mentions there are coded words ( hamza?) in Gurbani.Gurbani meanings are not understood by grammar alone Nor is each word in pangti to be taken literally. If so, how in the world can one understand the following Pauri by just understanding Grammar?

ਪਿੰਗੁਲ ਪਰਬਤ ਪਾਰਿ ਪਰੇ ਖਲ ਚਤੁਰ ਬਕੀਤਾ ॥
ਅੰਧੁਲੇ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣ ਸੂਝਿਆ ਗੁਰ ਭੇਟਿ ਪੁਨੀਤਾ ॥੧॥
ਮਹਿਮਾ ਸਾਧੂ ਸੰਗ ਕੀ ਸੁਨਹੁ ਮੇਰੇ ਮੀਤਾ ॥
ਮੈਲੁ ਖੋਈ ਕੋਟਿ ਅਘ ਹਰੇ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਭਏ ਚੀਤਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
ਐਸੀ ਭਗਤਿ ਗੋਵਿੰਦ ਕੀ ਕੀਟਿ ਹਸਤੀ ਜੀਤਾ ॥
ਜੋ ਜੋ ਕੀਨੋ ਆਪਨੋ ਤਿਸੁ ਅਭੈ ਦਾਨੁ ਦੀਤਾ ॥੨॥
ਸਿੰਘੁ ਬਿਲਾਈ ਹੋਇ ਗਇਓ ਤ੍ਰਿਣੁ ਮੇਰੁ ਦਿਖੀਤਾ ॥
ਸ੍ਰਮੁ ਕਰਤੇ ਦਮ ਆਢ ਕਉ ਤੇ ਗਨੀ ਧਨੀਤਾ ॥੩॥
ਕਵਨ ਵਡਾਈ ਕਹਿ ਸਕਉ ਬੇਅੰਤ ਗੁਨੀਤਾ ॥
ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਮੋਹਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਦੇਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਦਰ ਸਰੀਤਾ ॥੪॥੭॥੩੭॥

Obviously the words are not to be taken literally in the above Pauri. We know Guru Sahib is not saying
that Lions become cats by doing bhagti. Instead lion means Pride ( haumi) while cat means ( humble) - meaning one becomes humble when doing Bhagti with Sadh Sangat. Poetic device personification is used in this pangti. Personification refers to giving animals human like qualities. The human quality of pride and humility are given to both domestic and wild cats.

Im not a Gurbani scholar. Im only a simple person who trys to learn Gurbani and apply it
to my daily life. Im not suggesting Kheer is manmat nor am I suggesting it was not used in Langar. All Im saying is my interpretation of Kheer is not taken literally . Please dont turn this into controversy or make me out as a heretic for believing Gurbani is rich with poetic devices.

H.S.- I have no problems with Gursikhs who drink milk . I have only tried to inform sangat about some of the
things about the dairy industry and suggested we should be alert and considerate about these things. In the past, I did not know they put fish oils in milk . If nobody told me I would of continued drinking milk. Its for each individual to chose what diet they want whether it is vegetarian , vegan, or meat-based. I can only give suggestions in support of Gurbani. Rest Guru Sahib knows and thanks for your kind words again.

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Guru Sahib uses the word Kheer because it rhymes with Khivi.

What is the proof that the word “kheer” was used just for rhythmic purpose? How do you know? Both words appear in the middle of the pankti and there is no rhyme. Just because both start with “khakha” doesn’t mean it was a deliberate attempt to rhyme them. In fact, they do not rhyme at all. I am not interested in how you interpret the word although the meanings you derive are not supported by any dictionary or kosh. It is a historical viewpoint and clearly langar of Guru Angad Dev Ji is being described. Gurbani is revealed and Guru Sahib wasn’t thinking about different words to rhyme them while composing Gurbani.

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Gurbani meanings are not understood by grammar alone Nor is each word in pangti to be taken literally.

You do not seem to understand Gurbani interpretation. Whether Gurbani is interpreted in context, spiritual meanings or metaphors, grammar is always the same and is always used. You have an attitude of believing yourself to be correct just because you are using Gurbani while you completely turn a blind eye to the context of interpretation. Kaloo Raam provided five different shabad to justify himself but it didn’t make him right because he misused Gurbani by misinterpreting it and changing the context. Don’t take an offense because I am not comparing you to him but simply pointing out that using Gurbani doesn’t always mean being correct. Guru Rakha

Im not claiming Gurbani is not revealed, nor am I saying Guru Sahib decided what word rhymes with what word. All Im saying Gurbani is poetic and its uses poetic language/devices. Gods language is poetic; everything Gods says is divine poetry. God created words, and languages. God created tongues for the purpose that we praise him.

Also, I did not claim grammar is not always the same and its not used all the time. I said one cant understand Gurbani by grammar alone.

Bijla Singh Ji for being unclear in my last message.I did not use Gurbani to illustrate my point about how words are used through poetic device to get a message across. Rhyming is not confined to "rhyme" alone. Meaning words can sound the same even if the ending consonant letters or vowels are not similar.
For example, take the following verses

ਫਰੀਦਾ ਰੋਟੀ ਮੇਰੀ ਕਾਠ ਕੀ ਲਾਵਣੁ ਮੇਰੀ ਭੁਖ ॥
ਜਿਨਾ ਖਾਧੀ ਚੋਪੜੀ ਘਣੇ ਸਹਨਿਗੇ ਦੁਖ ॥੨੮॥

The words ਕਾਠ rhymes with ਲਾਵਣੁ because of the vowel a ( aaaa) . Obviously Sheik Fareed Ji is not saying his roti is wood, and those that have butter on their roti will suffer.

Instead ਕਾਠ is used for poetic reasons which makes the person look deeper into the pangti. Sheik Ji is saying one should not look for comfort ( sukh/ chopree parshaadey) because this leads to Dukh. Instead one should be firm/hard in their Bhagti which is the true appetite. Meaning one should be above sukh and dukh and remember Gods name at all times. If we get butter on a parshadey say Dhan Dhan WaaheGuru Sahib Jio, if we dont get butter then say Dhan Dhan WaaheGuru Sahib Jio.

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Gods language is poetic

God’s language is love. It can be expressed in any way.

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I said one cant understand Gurbani by grammar alone.

Gurbani is written in grammar. Even if 10 different meanings are derived, grammar will always apply. Higher the meanings, higher the grammar rules. There is not a single pankti that is outside of grammar rules. Words have multiple meanings and sometimes used as adjectives or to express a metaphor but grammar is always there.

ਫਰੀਦਾ ਰੋਟੀ ਮੇਰੀ ਕਾਠ ਕੀ ਲਾਵਣੁ ਮੇਰੀ ਭੁਖ ॥
ਜਿਨਾ ਖਾਧੀ ਚੋਪੜੀ ਘਣੇ ਸਹਨਿਗੇ ਦੁਖ ॥੨੮॥

Your rules are not even used in writing simple ordinary poem. If I go by your logic then I can say ਫਰੀਦਾ rhymes with ਜਿਨਾ because of kanna at the end, ਰੋਟੀ with ਮੇਰੀ, ਖਾਧੀ and ਚੋਪੜੀ because of bihari at the end, ਕਾਠ with ਲਾਵਣੁ because of kanna in the beginning and ਭੁਖ with ਦੁਖ either because of aunkar or letter khakha. But what about ਸਹਨਿਗੇ? Is it rhyming with ਘਣੇ because of laav or because first letter is mukta? This leads to randomness and there is no consistent rule. Gurbani grammar has no room for randomness. Most words in Gurbani have kanna, sihari, bihari etc but to say that words were picked out because of rhyming purpose is nothing more than degrading Gurbani’s revelation. I know the meanings and we are not discussing meanings of the panktis but your theory that certain words were used for poetic reasons so rhyming could be better. Guru Sahib wasn’t sitting around picking words. Your post reminds me of the pankti:

ਲੋਗੁ ਜਾਨੈ ਇਹੁ ਗੀਤੁ ਹੈ ਇਹੁ ਤਉ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਬੀਚਾਰ ॥

Sukhdeep Singh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ਫਰੀਦਾ ਰੋਟੀ ਮੇਰੀ
> ਕਾਠ ਕੀ ਲਾਵਣੁ ਮੇਰੀ
> ਭੁਖ ॥
> ਜਿਨਾ ਖਾਧੀ ਚੋਪੜੀ
> ਘਣੇ ਸਹਨਿਗੇ ਦੁਖ
> ॥੨੮॥
>
> The words ਕਾਠ rhymes with ਲਾਵਣੁ
> because of the vowel a ( aaaa) . Obviously Sheik
> Fareed Ji is not saying his roti is wood, and
> those that have butter on their roti will suffer.
>
> Instead ਕਾਠ is used for poetic reasons which
> makes the person look deeper into the pangti.
> Sheik Ji is saying one should not look for comfort
> ( sukh/ chopree parshaadey) because this leads to
> Dukh. Instead one should be firm/hard in their
> Bhagti which is the true appetite. Meaning one
> should be above sukh and dukh and remember Gods
> name at all times. If we get butter on a parshadey
> say Dhan Dhan WaaheGuru Sahib Jio, if we dont get
> butter then say Dhan Dhan WaaheGuru Sahib Jio.

How does ਕਾਠ and ਲਾਵਣੁ rhyme? I'm no expert but isn't rhyming in eastern poetry supposed to rhyme in the ending part of a word? ਕਾਠ and ਲਾਵਣੁ do not rhyme from start to end by any stretch of the imagination.

Perhaps the cow above could provide us with good, clean ,nutritious milk? as clearly this cow is very happy.

enough is enough this topic is fruitless.....

Humble reply to Bhai Kulbir Singh Ji's post above:


Vaheguru ji ka khalsa Vaheguru ji ki fatheh!

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Cons:
1. It may effect your body negatively and your body may become diseased.

This is false and has been proven by many studies. In fact, consumption of the modern dairy with hormones & animal torture leads to more diseases.

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2. You may have to compromise with your Bibek by taking vitamin supplements for non-medical reasons.

This is false and has been proven by raw food enthusiasts. Vitamins extracted from natural ingredients are raw, so they do not break bibek. However, you can supplement any nutrients of milk in other foods such as arugula, kale, spinach, seaweed, quinoa, flax, chia, etc.

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3. To be a true Vegan, you will have to avoid Degh. If you decide to accept Degh, you will lose any benefits you were going to incur by giving up dairy diet.

This statement is based on two misconceptions:
1) Most degh prepared anywhere in the panth is not prepared in sarbloh, and not prepared by maryada. So a vegan will only miss out on bibeki degh, which is a rare treat.
2) The point of this "morcha" is not to be vegan, but to eliminate torture from dairy production (at least for Gursikhs). Being vegan is not necessarily a gun, especially without gurmat. The "gun" is to avoid torture. So, if milk that was produced without torture can be found, then degh should be made from that.

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4. By giving up Degh, you will be deprived of Kirpa of Guru Sahib, that comes through consuming Degh.

Explained above.

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5. The Khalsa concept of Garam Jal, Samunder, Panjva etc. will not be relevant in your life.

These are Punjabi concepts, not Khalsa concepts. The only Khalsa concept is Degh. This is the only concept Guru Sahib has written into maryada (by Bhai Nand Laal Ji). However, even these products can be consumed by somebody in this "morcha" if the milk is free of torture (remember it is not a hatth - tapp about being vegan, it is a protest morcha to stop animal torture).

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Pros of eating dairy:
1. Your precious body will be maintained through milk and dairy products.

Guru Nanak Dev Ji's sakhi of Malik Bhago's blood roti is the same as eating dairy with torture of cows. Torture is torture. How can it be good for the body?

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2. If you body is healthy, you can engage in Naam Kamaaee more vigorously and have a higher chance of meeting Vaheguru.

It is 100% possible for a vegan to have a healthy body. However, it is also 100% possible for Gursikhs to start a torture-free farm. So what are we waiting for?

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3. If your body perishes due to lack of dairy consumption, the loss will be much bigger than the gain of showing compassion to cows. Who knows when you would get the human body again.

There is no evidence of the body being weaker due to being vegan. Nobody has ever died from being vegan. In fact, it leads to a longer life because today's milk has so many hormones in it. However, again, in order to have healthy, nutritious milk that would help in making Gursikhs stronger and healthier, why don't some Gursikhs start a farm in BC or Ontario or California? I'm sure if we can build million dollar Gurdwaras we can build million dollar bibeki Khalsa farms.

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4. You can continue enjoying Degh, the most tasty food in the world after Khande dee Pahul.

Would Guru Sahib do bhog of degh which contained ghio with hormones, taken from tortured cows who were slaughtered for meat? Degh is 100% necessary, but the ghio must be worthy of Guru Sahib's approval.

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5. Dairy builds a strong body that can be used for Sewa, and other duties of Khalsa e.g. shaheedi while fighting injustice.

There is no evidence of vegans not having strong body. There are many bodybuilders who are vegan. However, dairy can be used also, if it is torture-free. Being vegan, for a Gursikh, should be a "morcha" against animal torture, not a lifestyle choice. If the morcha is fateh (dairy can be obtained without torture), then those Gursikhs can consume that dairy and stop being vegan.

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You advocate giving up dairy products due to ill-treatment of cows; are you also going to adopt, preach and advocate giving up all food e.g. wheat, grains, vegetables etc. because of severe ill-treatment of humans on farms where they are grown?

YES! There should be no hypocricy. "Jor keea so julam hai." I try to consume fair-trade products and I am trying to work on this in my personal life. My family is not concerned about these things but after I get married I will have more autonomy to make these decisions.

bhul chuk maaf karnaa ji. Guru Sahib kirpa karan.

Vaheguru ji ka khalsa Vaheguru ji ki fatheh!