Reading Bani Without Understanding?

A few questions i have on my mind hopefully some people can clear my doubts.
Is there any point in reading bani if you don't understand what is being said?

Are there any benefits in reading without understanding?

If Yes what are the benefits?

There was a post on this forum not long ago about how a similar question was asked to Guru Sahib. Here is the sakhi

Gurbani and Sri Guru Har Rai Sahib Ji

One day Satguru Sri Guru Har Rai Maharaj’s Sikhs inquired whether those who read the Guru’s hymns without understanding them derived any spiritual advantage there from. Guru Ji gave no reply at the time, and the next morning went hunting. On a level plain on his way he saw pieces of a pot, which had held butter. The sun was melting the butter on the potsherds. Guru Ji took one of them in his hand and said, ‘Ye see, my Sikh brethren, these are old potsherds, but when they are heated, the butter that has adhered to them rapidly melt. As the grease adheres to the potsherds, so do the Guru’s hymns to the heart of his Sikhs. At the hour of death the Guru’s instruction shall assuredly bare fruit. Whether understood or not, it hath within it the seed of salvation. Perfume clings to the broken vase.
The meaning of this parable is, that whoever daily reads the Guru’s hymns shall assuredly obtain peace. And even though he does not fully understand them Waheguru will undoubtedly assist him.
Satguru Sri Guru Ram Das Ji Maharaj said, ‘The word is the Guru, and the Guru is the Word, and in the word is the essence of ambrosia’.
Satguru Sri Guru Arjan Dev Ji Maharaj also said, ‘Waheguru will not destroy your labour’.
‘That is, even though ye understand not. God will accept your prayers. God never in the slightest degree spoileth a good act, so why daily repetition of our hymns should be wasted?’
The Guru’s questioners were satisfied and their devotion increased.

DHAN DHAN SATGURU SRI GURU HAR RAI SAHIB JI MAHARAJ, THE KING OF KINGS AND THE SAINT OF SAINTS



There will always be benefits if one recites without understanding. But there will be greater benefit if one contemplates the advice/meanings of Gurbani, and the biggest benefit is following the advice of Gurbani. That being said I think its important to make an effort to understand the meanings of Gurbani. We live in the age of information. There are so many dictionries, encyclopedias, discussion forums, where we can inquire about the meanings of Gurbani so there is really no excuse we can make. So we should take advantage of all these resources. When I first started to learn Gurbani there were so many words I did not understand. So I would look up each unknown word in a dictionary. Knowing the words in Gurbani helped me in my concentration. Even today I have a hard time concentrating when reciting Jaap Sahib because I dont know the meanings, but I have no doubts that Im still benefiting for following GUru Jis Hukum in reciting Nitnem. Guru Ji tells us to recite Gurbani so if we do so we well get benefits even if we dont understand.

I have also noticed that when I dont do much Naam Abhyiaas then the meanings and concentration of Gurbani become much harder. Our minds our pitch black due to the deeds of many life times. Naam Abyiaas helps remove this blackness , and when the blackness is removed the mind more easily soaks the meanings of Gurbani which is pure light . I think when we recite Bani and we dont do Naam Abhyiaas along with Bani then the ego kicks in which makes it impossible to connect to the illuminated essence of Gurbani.

Once there were two individuals who were not in the sharan of Guru Sahib. They were complete fools who were ignorant of the divine light. But these two people had the great destiny of meeting Guru Sahib and GUru Sahib gave so much kirpa that this blackness ( ignorance, Jamkaal) was completely removed.
Here is the story
[www.gurmatbibek.com]

So if we recite Gurbani our minds our meeting Guru Ji, and the rest depends on Guru jis kirpa. Gurbani is our Guru and by coming into the sanctuary of our Guru our destiny will be blessed.

Veer Sukhdeep Singh has provided excellent explanation and has quoted very relevant saakhis with respect to this topic.

Gurbani has two-fold mission. It is Guru-roop and it is Mantra-roop. Being our Guru, it shows us the way to Vaheguru. In order to fully understand Gurmat, it is imperative that Gurbani be understood but as per Gurbani, there are very rare ones who do vichaar on Gurbani:

ਬਾਣੀ ਬਿਰਲਉ ਬੀਚਾਰਸੀ ਜੇ ਕੋ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਹੋਇ ॥ ਇਹ ਬਾਣੀ ਮਹਾ ਪੁਰਖ ਕੀ ਨਿਜ ਘਰਿ ਵਾਸਾ ਹੋਇ ॥੪੦॥
(Only a rare person contemplates on Gurbani and such person can do so only if he is a Gurmukh. This Baani of great Purakh is such that who ever contemplates on it, finds residence in real personal abode.)

The above reference from Gurbani leaves no doubt that an effort should be made to understand Gurbani. Another important thing is that this understanding should come directly from Gurbani and not from translations. In the beginning and even at later stages one has to refer to translations done by Gurmukhs but as one progresses spiritually, one finds that Gurbani itself reveals itself to the one who serves it (does paath with shardha). Effort should be made to understand words used in Gurbani and also an attempt should be made to understand the basic grammar of Gurbani. It greatly assists one in understanding Gurbani.

If one understands Gurbani, it greatly enhances the Vismaad one gets from listening to Kirtan or Paath. Without understanding, this Vismaad is hard to get.

The second function of Gurbani is that it is Mantra-roop. Mantra is such word or combination of words that if spoken with a certain maryada, yield results. It does not matter if one understands the meaning of Mantra or not; it still has effect. It does not matter whether one knows the nature of fire or not. If one brings one's hand near fire it will burn. Same way, whether one knows that water cleans one's body or not, it still cleans it. Similarly, Gurbani cleans one's inside. When one does paath of Gurbani and listens attentively to the sound of Gurbani, it has an enchanting and life-changing effect on the seeker. Just by listening to Gurbani one's sorrows and pains are removed. One becomes close to Vaheguru. Amritdhari Gursikhs know that when one does paath of Gurbani with maryada, automatically and effortlessly, the Naam Abhyaas from within starts. One's mind wants to japp Naam. This is the Paaras Kala of Gurbani.

Does water understand the meaning of Gurbani? No. But still it turns into Amrit when Gurbani Paath is done in its vicinity. What else is the Khande di Pahul? If we take away Gurbani from it, what is left behind? Just sweet water. So it is proven beyond doubt that it is the paath of 5 Amrit Baanis that turn the sweet water into Amrit. Water does not understand Gurbani but it still turns into Amrit. Our body too is 75% water. Would it not turn into Amrit, if Gurbani paath is done with maryada. In other words, the whole body would turn into Amrit, if paath would be done with Maryada. Can any disease remain in the body then?

The four pauris of Suniai in Siri Jap jee Sahib teach us the greatness of listening to Naam and Gurbani. Just by hearing it, one's sorrows are removed but the condition is that one MUST HEAR GURBANI. If we do paath and our concentration is not in Gurbani, then too the benefit is there but at a very low level. The full effect comes with listening to Gurbani, while doing paath of it.

May Guru Sahib enable us to do vichaar of Gurbani and listen to Gurbani with full maryada.

Humbly,
Kulbir Singh

"........Amritdhari Gursikhs know that when one does paath of Gurbani with maryada, automatically and effortlessly, the Naam Abhyaas from within starts. ........."

Bhai sahib can you please discuss about the maryaada of doing nitnem?

Inderjeet Singh jeeo,

Quote

"........Amritdhari Gursikhs know that when one does paath of Gurbani with maryada, automatically and effortlessly, the Naam Abhyaas from within starts. ........."

Bhai sahib can you please discuss about the maryaada of doing nitnem?

Based on Sangat of Gursikhs and books of Gurmukhs, Maryada of doing Amritvela Nitnem is as follows:

1) One should get up at Amritvela. Nitnem should be done during Amritvela.

2) One should do full body Ishnaan including Kesh.While doing Ishnaan, Gurbani paath, Mool Mantra or Gurmantra should be chanted.

3) One should wear Suchay-Bastar (clean clothes) and one must wear Gurmukhi Baana. Some people do Nitnem wearing track pajamas and teeshirts. This is not appropriate. If possible, one should reserve clothes just for doing nitnem and Maharaj jee's sewa. Imagine if one was to get darshan of Guru Sahib, could one come before Guru Sahib without Gurmukhi Baana? So wearing Gurmukhi baana means one is ready for Darshan of Guru Sahib. Who knows which fortunate Amritvela will bring Guru Sahib's darshan. One should be ready for Darshan all the time.

4) One should stop worldly thoughts from coming in the mind and should focus the mind on Gurbani meanings and the sound that comes while doing paath. Whether one does paath audibly or in the Surthee, either way, one should make an attempt to listen to the sound of Gurbani. While doing Nitnem, one should also make an effort to do Naam Abhyaas but this stage comes with a lot of hard work and it is a Bakshish of Guru Sahib. The main focus should be Gurbani meanings and Gurbani paath. The Naam part comes automatically, with time.

5) Ardaas is a must after doing Nitnem. Formal Ardaas is part of the Nitnem and must be done at least twice a day (morning and evening).

6) When doing evening Nitnem, many Gursikhs do Ishnaan but the very least that one should do is do punj-ishnaana (washing 2 hands, two feet and face including the mouth). Even before doing Sohila Sahib, one should do Punj Ishnaana.

Bhul Chuk dee Maafi jee. If someone can add something to the above list, it would be very much appreciated.

Daas,
Kulbir Singh

Namaskaar Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> A few questions i have on my mind hopefully some
> people can clear my doubts.
> Is there any point in reading bani if you don't
> understand what is being said?
>
> Are there any benefits in reading without
> understanding?
>
> If Yes what are the benefits?

i only have anecdotal evidence here, but i think it's worth sharing. i have discussed this with several sikhs from non-punjabi backgrounds. all have had similar experiences. when they walked into guru sahib's presence for the first time, and heard the keertan, all had some sort of strong reaction to it. a feeling in the heart or stomach, sudden crying, or blissful peace. none of these people understood the words being spoken. but when you approach guru sahib with an open heart, the power of the bani is so strong (especially when sung as keertan), combined with guru sahib's presence, it touches your heart. no matter what your level of understanding.

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

ਸਲੋਕੁ ਮ: ੫ ॥ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਗੁਰੁ ਆਰਾਧਣਾ ਜਿਹਵਾ ਜਪਿ ਗੁਰ ਨਾਉ ॥ ਨੇਤ੍ਰੀ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਪੇਖਣਾ ਸ੍ਰਵਣੀ ਸੁਨਣਾ ਗੁਰ ਨਾਉ ॥ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸੇਤੀ ਰਤਿਆ ਦਰਗਹ ਪਾਈਐ ਠਾਉ ॥ ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਕਰੇ ਜਿਸ ਨੋ ਏਹ ਵਥੁ ਦੇਇ ॥ ਜਗ ਮਹਿ ਉਤਮ ਕਾਢੀਅਹਿ ਵਿਰਲੇ ਕੇਈ ਕੇਇ ॥੧॥

Shalok, Fifth Mehl: Deep within yourself, worship the Guru in adoration, and with your tongue, chant the Guru's Name. Let your eyes behold the True Guru, and let your ears hear the Guru's Name. Attuned to the True Guru, you shall receive a place of honor in the Court of the Lord. Says Nanak, this treasure is bestowed on those who are blessed with His Mercy. In the midst of the world, they are known as the most pious - they are rare indeed. ||1||

ਅੰਤਰਿ = ਮਨ ਵਿਚ। ਆਰਾਧਣਾ = ਯਾਦ ਕਰਨਾ। ਗੁਰ ਨਾਉ = ਗੁਰੂ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ। ਸ੍ਰਵਣੀ = ਕੰਨਾਂ ਨਾਲ। ਸੇਤੀ = ਨਾਲ। ਰਤਿਆ = ਰੰਗੀਜ ਕੇ, ਪਿਆਰ ਕੀਤਿਆਂ। ਵਥੁ = ਚੀਜ਼। ਕਾਢੀਅਹਿ = ਅਖਵਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ।੧।

ਗੁਰੂ ਅਰਜਨਦੇਵ ਜੀ ਦਾ ਸਲੋਕ। ਜੇ ਆਪਣੇ ਗੁਰੂ (ਦੇ ਪਿਆਰ) ਵਿਚ ਰੰਗੇ ਜਾਈਏ ਤਾਂ (ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੀ) ਹਜ਼ੂਰੀ ਵਿਚ ਥਾਂ ਮਿਲਦਾ ਹੈ। ਮਨ ਵਿਚ ਗੁਰੂ ਨੂੰ ਯਾਦ ਕਰਨਾ, ਜੀਭ ਨਾਲ ਗੁਰੂ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ ਜਪਣਾ, ਅੱਖਾਂ ਨਾਲ ਗੁਰੂ ਨੂੰ ਵੇਖਣਾ, ਕੰਨਾਂ ਨਾਲ ਗੁਰੂ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ ਸੁਣਨਾ-ਇਹ ਦਾਤਿ, ਆਖ, ਹੇ ਨਾਨਕ! ਉਸ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਨੂੰ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੇਂਦਾ ਹੈ ਜਿਸ ਉਤੇ ਮੇਹਰ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ, ਅਜੇਹੇ ਬੰਦੇ ਜਗਤ ਵਿਚ ਸ੍ਰੇਸ਼ਟ ਅਖਵਾਉਂਦੇ ਹਨ, (ਪਰ ਅਜੇਹੇ ਹੁੰਦੇ) ਕੋਈ ਵਿਰਲੇ ਵਿਰਲੇ ਹਨ।੧।

Source: [www.srigranth.org]

Same principle applies to Nitnem i.e
Remember Satguru deep within,
With toungue recite paath,
Read Gurbani with eyes,
Listen with ears,
Doing all of the above simultaneously, concentration is acheived.
This way one gets attuned with Gurbani.

The spiritual advantage of reading from Larrivar swaroop of Gurbani is that unless there is total concentration a person cannot do paath.
Slightest distraction and paathi will be lost !

Therefore only experts or trained Sikhs can benefit from Larrivar swaroop, simpletons and newcommers will shy away altogether if forced to abide
by strict norms.

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

BJ Singh jeeo,

Quote

Therefore only experts or trained Sikhs can benefit from Larrivar swaroop, simpletons and newcommers will shy away altogether if forced to abide
by strict norms.

In olden days, when there was no concept of Padd-chhed, Sikhs had more kamaayee of Gurbani and the Panth was in Chardi Kala. Today with all the padd-chhed Gurbani available, are Sikhs doing more Gurbani Paath?

I don't think newcomers will shy away from coming to Sikhi if they are told to do paath only from Laridaar Gurbani. A person can become a Sikh only when he or she is willing to give Sees (head) to Guru Sahib during Amrit Sinchaar. If one can give head to Guru Sahib, can't he or she make a little more effort and learn Gurbani from laridaar saroop? Sikhi is the game of love and it requires the seeker to place his head on his palm and then walk towards Guru Sahib. If Sikhs for 400 years were able to do paath from Laridaar, why can't they do it now?

Kulbir Singh

Quote
Bhai BJ Singh ji

Therefore only experts or trained Sikhs can benefit from Larrivar swaroop, simpletons and newcommers will shy away altogether if forced to abide
by strict norms.

hahahahaa....><

you don't plan on letting this go, don't you?

Veer ji,start another thread where detailed discussion can take place

Chota veer

Kulbir Singh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> I don't think newcomers will shy away from coming
> to Sikhi if they are told to do paath only from
> Laridaar Gurbani.


i agree whole heartedly. i had been "learning" gurmukhi for more than a year, but was always a bit slow and hesitant to read it. when my husband and i were blessed with seva of a Larivaar saroop, i thought it would be impossible for me to read, but i knew i had to learn. what i found was that i became much better at reading gurmukhi than i had before. after becoming more comfortable with larivaar, simple (pad-ched) gurmukhi became much easier for me to read. i'm still no expert, but i'm confident that reading larivaar gave me a huge boost in my gurmukhi education.

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

Kulbir Singh ji,

I frankly don't know the history when, where, why or who produced Padd-chedd swaroop.
But from the beginning i.e primary, was taught Gurmukhi & Paath from Padd-chedd Gutka Sahib's in a Sikh school.
Have never known of a Laarivar swaroop until the age of 25.

What i mean to say is, that basic's are generally taught at primary or middle school level.
It is not for a student but the board running the school to decide what curriculum to put in place.

Only when one goes for higher studies one does self-study and research,otherwise one rely's on what was taught earlier.

Now if you guys want to do Real Seva then bring reform in schools, where a Sikh is taught fundamentals.

I would advice All Sikh Sangat to come together and open Sikh Schools outside India rather than big Gurudwara's.

Save Sikhi, focus on quality !

In this topic i am only referring to the use of Laarivar Gutka Sahibs & Pothi Sahibs which can be used in daily Nitnem for better focus in Paath.

Problem is Willingness and Time factor.


> In olden days, when there was no concept of
> Padd-chhed, Sikhs had more kamaayee of Gurbani and
> the Panth was in Chardi Kala. Today with all the
> padd-chhed Gurbani available, are Sikhs doing more
> Gurbani Paath?


Ya Sikhs even non-Sikhs do paath all over the globe from Padd-chedd Gutka Sahibs and Pothi Sahibs.
Even though they are not perfect but something is better than nothing.


> I don't think newcomers will shy away from coming
> to Sikhi if they are told to do paath only from
> Laridaar Gurbani. A person can become a Sikh only
> when he or she is willing to give Sees (head) to
> Guru Sahib during Amrit Sinchaar. If one can give
> head to Guru Sahib, can't he or she make a little
> more effort and learn Gurbani from laridaar
> saroop? Sikhi is the game of love and it requires
> the seeker to place his head on his palm and then
> walk towards Guru Sahib. If Sikhs for 400 years
> were able to do paath from Laridaar, why can't
> they do it now?

Singh Sahib Sikhi starts from Guru Nanak Dev ji or even before in times of Bhagat and Pir Sahibaan's long before teachings of Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji.

Nobody can become a PHD or Doctorate in a day, they have to go through a proper process which takes lot many years or decades.
I am not talking about a couple of adults or some teenagers who get attracted to Sikhi.
My concern is for the new generation whether Sikhs or Punjabis or Indians living in India or away, (the masses).

It is easier to groom a child then teach a grown-up adult.

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh