God is God,and Baba Nanak was his Servant

Gurmukho,

I am just wondering what are we trying to achieve here. What difference does it make ? Do we have any doubts that Guru Sahib was Waheguru's Jot ? We seem to be questioning too much , isn't it ? The subject line here itself looks odd to me in relation to Guru Sahib's name attached with it - Word "Servant" Pinches.

What would we do knowing either of these 2 ?


Aren't we going against these 2 panktis in Bani atleast ?


ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਕਰਣੀ ਕਾਹੇ ਧਾਵਹੁ ॥

ਪਿਤਾ ਕਾ ਜਨਮੁ ਕਿ ਜਾਨੈ ਪੂਤੁ ॥

In my view, everything we predict here would be wrong. Only if someone reaches HIM , he could answer but at that stage for sure these questions wont arise.


ਪਵਨੈ ਮਹਿ ਪਵਨੁ ਸਮਾਇਆ ॥
ਜੋਤੀ ਮਹਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਰਲਿ ਜਾਇਆ ॥

Bhul Chuk Maaf !!

This is the duality that Gurbani repeatedly talks about and tells us how to get rid of.

This is the last time Im going to repeat this. Guru is God. You can keep on posting Gurbani quotes to prove this , but it doesnt make sense to what we are discussing. I have said over and over Guru is God. Guru Nanak Sahib Ji was Guru hence Guru Nanak Sahib Ji was God. Guru Gobind SIngh Ji was GUru hence GUru Gobind Singh JI was God.

I have asked questions which nobody has answered instead they are going off topic and putting words in my mouth. I have quoted Gurbani scholars, Bhai Gurdas Ji, Bhai Nand Lal Ji, and Bhai Randhir Singh Ji and nobody has questioned these quotes. I have quoted Sakhis and nobody has questioned this as well. I have never once said that Im the only strict monotheist on this forum so dont put any words in my mouth. Unless Bhai Tarun Singh Ji or BHai Bijla Singh Ji have anything left to say consider this my last post. Nirmata its nice to know your from California. What is your name and where are you from. Im from the valley and my name is Sukhdeep Singh. Perhaps we can meet and do some kamaee together.



short poem about Guru Gobind Singh Ji

The oceans wash his holy feet
In his presences all beings are meek

The skys air dry his holy hair
He is everywhere his presence is near

Guru Gobind SIngh Ji is Aad Guru destroyer of death
Guru Gobind Singh Ji puts naam in the inner breath.

Sukhdeep Singh Ji, like said before, daas is always busy during weekdays so it takes me some time to write during the week. I will get back to you as soon as I am done. I understand what you are trying to say.

Bijla Singh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sukhdeep Singh Ji, like said before, daas is
> always busy during weekdays so it takes me some
> time to write during the week. I will get back to
> you as soon as I am done. I understand what you
> are trying to say.


No problem Bhai Sahib take your time.

My Masters Name

God of Gods he is thee Giant
Open to all protector from violence
Breaker of each and every tyrant
Iron sword bearer and wielder of iron
NarSingh destroys the foe like a lion
Destroyer of dark " Narayan"

Supreme to all higher then every King
Intelligent without you none can think
Never hateful your love is never ending
Giving to every living being
Hero to every Singh

Sukhdeep Singh Ji - along with this conversation - how do you suppose Narsingh was God himself from the beginning when he came to save Bhagat Prehlaadh Ji but Guru Nanak Dev Ji was not God from the beginning?

I think you are reading the poem too literally. I mentioned a Hindu mythological character to highlight a character of God which is he destroys the foe like a lion (nursing). Obviously I don't believe Vishnu is God nor do I believe in any of his incarnations of God. I hope this answers your question.

ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਦੀ ਵਿਚਾਰ ਵਿਚ ਕੋਈ ਦਾਅਵਾ ਨਹੀਂ ਕਿ ਮੈਂ ਹੀ ਠੀਕ ਹਾਂ ਕਿਉਂ ਕਿ ਬਾਣੀ ਅਗਮ ਅਗਾਧ ਬੋਧ ਹੈ । ਇਹ ਤਾਂ ਸਿਰਫ ਦਾਸ ਦੀ ਤੁੱਛ ਬੁੱਧੀ ਅਨੁਸਾਰ ਹੈ ।

In this post I will only focus on the status of Guru Nanak Sahib prior to the event of Vein River.

Gurbani is clear that there is only one Satguru in the world.

ਇਕੋ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਜਾਗਤਾ ਹੋਰੁ ਜਗੁ ਸੂਤਾ ਮੋਹਿ ਪਿਆਸਿ ॥

ਇਕਾ ਬਾਣੀ ਇਕੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਇਕੋ ਸਬਦੁ ਵੀਚਾਰਿ ॥

Only Satguru can give Naam not anyone else. Satguru does not come and go.

ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਮੇਰਾ ਸਦਾ ਸਦਾ ਨਾ ਆਵੈ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥

Status of Satguru is only given to Guru Nanak Sahib in Gurbani and Vaars. I won’t post exact quotes assuming you already know this.

Keep in mind I am referring to Satguru as the Light Form not the body. Bhai Gurdas Ji refers to Satguru as Shabad and Light form as well. Jot of Waheguru manifested which resided in a body and then transferred over. It came to be called “Nanak”. This is why Gurbani says:

ਜੋਤਿ ਰੂਪਿ ਹਰਿ ਆਪਿ ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਕਹਾਯਉ ॥

This means Jot of Guru Nanak Sahib was the Jot of Waheguru. It doesn’t specify any time period.

Bhatts say:

ਤੂ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਚਹੁ ਜੁਗੀ ਆਪਿ ਆਪੇ ਪਰਮੇਸਰੁ ॥
ਸੁਰਿ ਨਰ ਸਾਧਿਕ ਸਿਧ ਸਿਖ ਸੇਵੰਤ ਧੁਰਹ ਧੁਰੁ ॥
ਆਦਿ ਜੁਗਾਦਿ ਅਨਾਦਿ ਕਲਾ ਧਾਰੀ ਤ੍ਰਿਹੁ ਲੋਅਹ ॥

This means Satguru is Satguru of all four yugs meanings entire world throughout time not just in kalyug and He has been Satguru since Aad Jugaad. If Guru Nanak Sahib became Satguru only after the merge (1499) then who was Satguru prior to this or in previous yugs? There is no answer. Bhatts further make it clear that it was certainly Waheguru Himself who menifested as Satguru.

ਆਪਿ ਨਰਾਇਣੁ ਕਲਾ ਧਾਰਿ ਜਗ ਮਹਿ ਪਰਵਰਿਯਉ ॥
ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰਿ ਆਕਾਰੁ ਜੋਤਿ ਜਗ ਮੰਡਲਿ ਕਰਿਯਉ ॥

Bhai Gurdas Ji says:

ਸੁਣੀ ਪੁਕਾਰਿ ਦਾਤਾਰ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਕ ਜਗ ਮਾਹਿ ਪਠਾਇਆ॥...
ਕਲਿ ਤਾਰਣਿ ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਕ ਆਇਆ ॥23॥

Word ਪਠਾਇਆ means that He came which is not the same meanings as being born. Further, the meanings are clear that He came with a mission “to redeem kalyug”. He wasn’t given this mission in 1499. Bhai Sahib also says:

ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਨਾਨਕ ਪ੍ਰਗਟਿਆ ਮਿਟੀ ਧੁੰਧ ਜਗ ਚਾਨਣ ਹੋਆ॥...
ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਕਲਿ ਵਿਚਿ ਪਰਗਟ ਹੋਆ ॥27॥

This also means Guru wasn’t born. He was ਪਰਗਟ and further he was Gurmukh at that time not an ordinary being. The line makes it clear that advent of Guru Nanak Sahib was like sun diminishing the fog.

Bhai Nand Lal Ji also echoes Gurbani by explaining the status of Guru Nanak Sahib in Jot Bigaas (Persian):

ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਕ ਆਮਦ ਨਰਾਇਨ ਸਰੂਪ । ਹਮਾਨਾ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ਰੂਪ ॥1॥
ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ਦਾ ਸਰੂਪ ਹੈ, ਨਿਰਸੰਦੇਹ ਉਹ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਅਤੇ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ਦਾ ਰੂਪ ਹੈ ।

ਹੱਕਸ਼ ਆਫ਼ਰੀਦਾ ਜ਼ਿ ਨੂਰਿ ਕਰਮ, ਅਜ਼ੋ ਆਲਮੋ ਰਾ ਫ਼ਯੂਜ਼ਿ ਆਤਮ॥2॥
ਰੱਬ ਨੇ ਉਸ ਨੂੰ ਆਪਣੀ ਬਖ਼ਸ਼ਿਸ਼ ਦੇ ਨੂਰ ਤੋਂ ਉਤਪੰਨ ਕੀਤਾ ਹੈ । ਸਾਰਾ ਸੰਸਾਰ ਵਡੇਰੀਆਂ ਬਖ਼ਸ਼ਿਸ਼ਾਂ ਉਸ ਤੋਂ ਪ੍ਰਾਪਤ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ ।

Clearly, Guru Sahib and Waheguru were One from the beginning. Bhai Sahib further says:

ਜ਼ਿ ਪੈਸ਼ੀਨੀਆਂ ਪੇਸ਼ਤਰ ਆਮਦਾ
ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਕ ਆਪਣੇ ਪਹਿਲਾਂ ਹੋ ਗੁਜ਼ਰੇ ਅਵਤਾਰਾਂ ਤੋਂ ਵੀ ਪਹਿਲਾਂ ਦਾ ਹੈ ।

This means Guru Sahib has existed since Aad as form of Waheguru.

I think I have provided enough references. Since Gurbani, Vaars and Bhai Nand Lal Ji do not contradict each other, it is rational to believe that quotes you provided do not support your assertions that Guru Sahib merged in Waheguru later.
Your argument that God talking to God is not valid. You say Guru becomes God after becoming a Guru. So what happened after joti jot? Two Gods in Sachkhand? Did conversation between “God and God” not take place when Guru Sahib went to Sachkhand after Joti Jot? Or they never talked? Guru is God then why is Guru also not incomprehensible? Such thinking is not rational. Waheguru has no shape or size and it was not like entire Waheguru got trapped in a body. Satguru is His own light as is clear from the quotes above. The same light now resides in the Shabad. It is not like one God on earth and one in Sachkhand. Waheguru’s light shines everywhere just like sun’s arrays. Light in Satguru was Waheguru’s own light not something separately created. All the messengers, prophets and avtars only received some power from Waheguru and are below the level of Satguru. Bhai Nand Lal Ji says that all draw their powers from Satguru and this is exactly why Bhatts see Guru Sahib’s Jot in Raam, Krishan etc because it was by the power of Satguru that these avtars were able to win over evil.

The very proof that Guru Nanak Sahib was Satguru prior to 1499 is that He revealed Bani right from his childhood and stood firmly against futility of Islam and Hinduism. Numerous sakhis can be provided to prove it. This is why the banis revealed prior to 1499 were treated at the same level as other banis. He was communicating with Waheguru from the beginning and He came with a mission. He wasn’t surprised with a gigantic mission in 1499. Satguru appeared in 1469 and now continues to live amongst us as our guide. Vein River was only one episode but not the beginning. Your assertions break this continuity because if Guru Nanak Sahib was born then death to him is inevitable (sorry for such a language). Hence, contradicting Gurbani that Satguru is out of the cycle of death and birth.

You introduced a new topic about salvation prior to 1469. Since there is only one Satguru that has existed forever, it was Guru Nanak Sahib (name given by the world) who gave Naam and salvation. But this happened very rarely and only to selected individuals. Gurbani explains how Guru Sahib did kirpa on Dhru and Prehlaad and gave them Naam:

ਸਿਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਸਭ ਊਪਰਿ ॥ ਕਰੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਸਤਜੁਗਿ ਜਿਨਿ ਧ੍ਰੂ ਪਰਿ ॥
ਸ੍ਰੀ ਪ੍ਰਹਲਾਦ ਭਗਤ ਉਧਰੀਅੰ ॥ ਹਸœ ਕਮਲ ਮਾਥੇ ਪਰ ਧਰੀਅੰ ॥

Clearly, placing hand on the head and doing kirpa refer to giving Naam which resulted in salvation. Gurbani also says:

ਫੁਨਿ ਤਰਹਿ ਤੇ ਸੰਤ ਹਿਤ ਭਗਤ ਗੁਰੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਕਰਹਿ ਤਰਿਓ ਪ੍ਰਹਲਾਦੁ ਗੁਰ ਮਿਲਤ ਮੁਨਿ ਜੰਨ ਰੇ ॥

This also means all including Prehlaad became mukat after meeting Satguru. Once again, Gurbani only gives status of Satguru to Guru Nanak Sahib. No human being is given this title or praised in Gurbani.

Same Shabad further explains:

ਗੁਰੁ ਜਹਾਜੁ ਖੇਵਟੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਗੁਰ ਬਿਨੁ ਤਰਿਆ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥
ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਪਾਈਐ ਗੁਰ ਬਿਨੁ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਨ ਹੋਇ ॥
ਗੁਰੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਨਿਕਟਿ ਬਸੈ ਬਨਵਾਰੀ ॥ ਤਿਨਿ ਲਹਣਾ ਥਾਪਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਜਗਿ ਧਾਰੀ ॥
ਲਹਣੈ ਪੰਥੁ ਧਰਮ ਕਾ ਕੀਆ ॥ ਅਮਰਦਾਸ ਭਲੇ ਕਉ ਦੀਆ ॥
ਤਿਨਿ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਰਾਮਦਾਸੁ ਸੋਢੀ ਥਿਰੁ ਥਪ੍ਹਉ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਕਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਅਖੈ ਨਿਧਿ ਅਪ੍ਹਉ ॥
ਅਪ੍ਹਉ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਅਖੈ ਨਿਧਿ ਚਹੁ ਜੁਗਿ ਗੁਰ ਸੇਵਾ ਕਰਿ ਫਲੁ ਲਹੀਅੰ ॥

Three important facts are mentioned: 1) Without Guru no one can become mukat. 2) Guru Nanak Sahib is the Guru and He gave His throne to Guru Angad Ji so on and so forth 3) Satguru has had Naam for four yugs (meaning forever from the beginning of time).

One may ask how Nirgun form could give Naam? Bhai Randhir Singh wrote a story in Jail Chitthian that a prisoner was suffering from the ghost of someone whom he had killed during a robbery and wanted Bhai Sahib to save him. Bhai Sahib explained that since he couldn’t give Naam, he would do ardaas. So he came back to his cell and did ardaas. Later on he saw a guard doing swas swas simran and when enquired as to how he came to know of this, he replied that he saw the suffering prisoner meditating this way. It was affirmed that Nirgun form of Satguru had done kirpa and blessed him with Naam. I do not know (as it is not explained in Gurbani) as to how, when and to whom Naam was given but it is clear that Satguru gave Naam prior to 1469 (to Dhru and Prehlaad) but after that it became open. Like Bhai Randhir Singh describes in his Khalsa Raj article that giving Naam became open and the secret was revealed by Satguru. Now everyone will have an easy chance to salvation which was much harder and came to very few in previous yugs. Guru Sahib may have given Naam this way not in a human body because all the avtars (Raam, Krishan, Mohammad etc) are below Satguru and get powers from Him. So one cannot claim that Guru Nanak Sahib in form of Raam, Krishan, Narsingh etc gave Naam.
When Guru Sahib allows, I will focus on Vein episode in my next post and address your references. Guru Rakha

I suppose my question did not deserve an answer....and thus got overlooked.

Bhai Sahib please listen to these words one last time. SatGuru is God. Guru Nanak Sahib was given status of SatGuru by SatGuru; hence, Guru Nanak Sahib is God. All the references you have provided clearly explain Guru Nanak Sahib as God. I have not questioned this from the beginning. SatGuru ( WaaheGurus jot) never came ( existed) nor will he ever leave ( die). He can only give Naam. I pray that you can firmly understand my position on this.

In regards to Bhai Nand Lal Jis writings you are right there can be no contradictions there can only be a miscomprehension. One cannot understand Joti Bigas by neglecting Ganj Nama. You have quoted BHai Nand Lal referring to Guru Nanak as God, and you ask how can there be two Gods in Sach Khand.

Bhai Nand Lal Ji refers to Guru Sahiban as God as he saw no difference. In addition , during the conversation recorded in GanjNama between God and Guru Nanak , God stated the following to Guru Sahib.

ਹਰ ਕਿ ਨਾਮੇ ਤੋ ਬਰਤਰੀਂ ਦਾਨਦ, ਅਜ਼ ਦਿਲੋ ਜਾਂ ਬਾ- ਵਸਫੇ ਮਨ ਖਵਾਨਦ।
Who ever so praises your name will be actually praising me.
- Ganj Nama

God also titled Guru Sahib as ਮੁਰਸ਼ਿਦੁਲ ਆਲਮੀਂ

Exactly what does this mean? Murash mean High officer - one who gives orders. Thus the title means one who give orders to both worlds ( aalmee(N) ). What is the order/hukum. The order is Naam as since Hukum and Naam mean the same things in Gurmat. So Guru Sahib gives hukum in both worlds meaning through Naam he saves beings in both worlds. This is how previous Bhagtis were saved . WaaheGuru has been saving Bhagats from Tyrants throughout the Jugs, and Guru Nanak Sahib gives these saved Bhagats naam. When they were residing in higher realms Guru Sahib blessed them with Naam so they can go to Sach Khand. From the beginning of their birth as an angelic being they have been praising that ਮੁਰਸ਼ਿਦੁਲ ਆਲਮੀਂ will one day save them. Lets not forget Guru Sahib gives naam in all realms including places like Karam Khand. When Bhai Mardana Ji and Guru Sahib went on travels they went on travels beyond this physical world.. Why? For what purpose? Do you mean to tell me Guru Sahibs travels were limited to this world alone?

Because Guru Nanak Sahib Ji is giver of Naam he is embodiment of Naam hence he is God who sits on throne of Sach Khand for all of time.You are understanding the time of four jugs in a linear progression while I understand it in a circular progression. Meaning the times ( jugs) never end they go through cycles. I dont believe Vishnu was SatGuru in Satyug, nor do I believe Raam Chander to be SatGuru in Duapar yug, and Krishna in Treta yug. These beings were all engrossed in Haumi and had people repeat the mantar of their own name, "VIshnu, Vishnu", "Raam Raam", "Hari Hari". But SatGuru Nanak Sahib Ji came/appeared ( pargat) with Gurmantar. No person in any yug could be saved without this Gurmantar. This Gurmantar came in Kalyug through the coming/appearance of "SatGuru Nanak Sahib Ji Maharaj". Thus Guru Nanak Sahib is the SatGuru of all four jugs ( all of time to come) I dont know how you can claim others were saved by naam in other Yugs. Nobody was initiated into Gurmat Naam in other ages. Only through SatGuru Nanak Sahib Ji can one be initiated into Naam and go to sach khand.

the quote you quoted of Bhai Nand Lal Ji

"ਜ਼ਿ ਪੈਸ਼ੀਨੀਆਂ ਪੇਸ਼ਤਰ ਆਮਦਾ
ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਕ ਆਪਣੇ ਪਹਿਲਾਂ ਹੋ ਗੁਜ਼ਰੇ ਅਵਤਾਰਾਂ ਤੋਂ ਵੀ ਪਹਿਲਾਂ ਦਾ ਹੈ ।

This means Guru Sahib has existed since Aad as form of Waheguru."

does not mean he has existed since Aaad. ਆਮਦਾ means come ,and the meaning was he was the first (ਪੇਸ਼ਤਰ _ to come and save out of all other avtars. Guru Nanak Sahib came into a world which had forgotten Naam, if God has been saving people from all ages with Naam then how did people forget Naam? IF there was a path to Naam in previous Yugs then how did people get initiated into Naam. To have Naam one must have a Guru and take directions from the Guru. In what form did Guru come in previous Jugs. Please dont tell me he came as Vishnu and so forth. The truth is there was no path to Naam as previous avtars failed and they had people worship their own name. Without naam the world was drowning and drowning and resorting to magic.

ਸ਼ੁਦਹ ਗੁਮਰਾਹ ਆਲਮੇ ਬੇ-ਮਨ, ਸਾਹਿਰਾਂ ਗਸ਼ਤਹਅੰਦ ਜਾਦੂਏ ਮਨ।

my world ( people) are without a path. they are lost in magic.
Ganjnama

In the conversation between God and Guru Sahib , God mentions how people have forgotten the True Name and resort to magic ( jadoo). He says the people are trying to bring the dead back to life, turn water into fire, and get material gifts through magic. When reading Bhai Gurdas Jis Vaaran we know that the Siddhas were indulged in these practices. They tryed to do all types of magic with water and they tryed to persuade Guru Sahib with rubies, and gems which they received through magic. Thus we can conclude the conversation of God and Guru Sahib did not happen from the beginning of time.You previously stated a conversation took place but then you say Guru Nanak Sahib is aad Guru this is a contradiction in itself. Explain yourself please.

Tejasv Wrote:
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> I suppose my question did not deserve an
> answer....and thus got overlooked.


you ask a good question which could easily be found on the internet. Write the sakhi "kalibein Sakhi" in search engine and you should find some results. There are different versions but the gist of the story is the same.

I am not going to interrupt this wonderful debate between Sukhdeep Singh jee and Bijla Singh jee but I have a small comment on the following lines of Sukhdeep Singh jee:

Quote

God also titled Guru Sahib as ਮੁਰਸ਼ਿਦੁਲ ਆਲਮੀਂ
Exactly what does this mean? Murash mean High officer - one who gives orders. Thus the title means one who give orders to both worlds ( aalmee(N) ). What is the order/hukum.

If Murash means officer, then what does "dul" mean? Nothing.

Actually the word above is Murshid-ul-Almeen. Murshid means Ustaad or Guru. Murshid-ul-Aalameen does not mean a high officer (which is not a good praise of Guru Sahib) but means Guru of whole Aalam i.e. creation. In other words, this term means Jagat Guru.

Kulbir Singh

Bhai Sahib high officer is not an undermining title especially if the officer is giving orders of naam.

murashd means - agya karn vala- one who gives orders. Also means Guru ( teacher) and peer ( saint) but in the pangti I mentioned it refers to officer of all worlds as Guru Sahib redeem souls in all worlds. It is a persian word. Some refer to their superior officers as Murashd, and they would also refer to their saints as Murashd. A person who gives orders political or spiritually is generally referred to as Murashd

dul means nothing. i wrote the title wrong it should be

ਮੁਰਸ਼ਿਦੁ ਲ ਆਲਮੀਂ

ਮੁਰਸ਼ਿਦੁ ( order giver)
ਲ ( light)
ਆਲਮੀਂ ( worlds)

GOd Hukum ( naam ) is pure light. Thus Guru Sahib is the giver of light in all worlds. Jagat Guru is not a bad name but I prefer high officer one who gives order/hukum ( Naam ) in all worlds as this title is more relevant to what we are discussing.

Its Murshad-ul-Aalmi. Murshad refers to ustaad, aalam refers to creation, murshad-ul-aalmi is ustaad of creation or Jagat Guru as Bhai Kulbir Singh jee said, and his interpretation is correct. Its ਮੁਰਸ਼ਿਦੁਲ ਆਲਮੀਂ and not ਮੁਰਸ਼ਿਦੁ ਲ ਆਲਮੀਂ. Just ਲ in Arabic could also refer to negation, as in "not". Therefore ਮੁਰਸ਼ਿਦੁ ਲ ਆਲਮੀਂ would mean "ustaad not world", which means nothing. How do you get ਲ to mean light?

Quote

A person who gives orders political or spiritually is generally referred to as Murashd

says who? Murshad always means ustaad. Its a Sufi term.

Mehtab Singh Wrote:
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> Its Murshad-ul-Aalmi. Murshad refers to ustaad,
> aalam refers to creation, murshad-ul-aalmi is
> ustaad of creation or Jagat Guru as Bhai Kulbir
> Singh jee said, and his interpretation is correct.
> Its ਮੁਰਸ਼ਿਦੁਲ ਆਲਮੀਂ and
> not ਮੁਰਸ਼ਿਦੁ ਲ ਆਲਮੀਂ.
> Just ਲ in Arabic could also refer to negation,
> as in "not". Therefore ਮੁਰਸ਼ਿਦੁ ਲ
> ਆਲਮੀਂ would mean "ustaad not world",
> which means nothing. How do you get ਲ to mean
> light?
>
> A person who gives orders political or spiritually
> is generally referred to as Murashd says who?
> Murshad always means ustaad. Its a Sufi term.

Murshad is not a Sufi term.My Christian friend who is Persian ( assyrian) refers to Jesus as Murashad. Jesus and Christianity is older then sufi sect so we cant say its sufi term.
According to my Assyrian friend who is fluent in Persian, Murashad means great messiah,prophet of GOds word, great teacher who gives teachings. In addition, according to Gurbani scholar Bhai Kahan Singh Ji ਮੁਰਸ਼ਿਦੁ means
ਇਰਸ਼ਾਦ (ਆਗ੍ਯਾ) ਕਰਨ ਵਾਲਾ. ਹਦਾਇਤ ਕਰਨ ਵਾਲਾ, ਗੁਰੂ. ਪੀਰ. meaning one who gives orders
and according to MahanKosh ਲ could mean light or bliss. In this context I would assume it means light. I will talk to an Persian person for verification when I get a chance.

Going back to the title ਮੁਰਸ਼ਿਦੁ ਲ ਆਲਮੀਂ.. I still believe it is referring to giving order of Naam and Naam Jaap. In Gurmat , BaNa, Hukum and Naam mean one and the same thing. When God calls Guru Sahib" ਮੁਰਸ਼ਿਦੁ ਲ ਆਲਮੀਂ" , and Guru Sahib responds and says I am your slave. God then tells him that is is with Guru Sahib and that whatever he wills ( desires) to do Guru Sahib will do, and show people the "path of Naam abyhiaas" ( ਰਾਹੇ ਜ਼ਿਕਰਮ "),

ਕਿ ਮਨਮ ਦਰ ਤੋ ਗੈਰੇ ਤੋ ਕਸ ਨੇਸਤ, ਹਰ ਚਿਹ ਖਵਾਹਮ ਕੁਨਮ ਹਮਹ ਅਦਲੇਸਤ।

ਰਾਹੇ ਜ਼ਿਕਰਮ ਬਆਲਮੇ ਬਿ-ਨੁਮਾ. ਬ-ਹਮਹ ਸੌ ਜ਼ਿ ਵਸਫੇ ਮਨ ਗੋਯਾ ।

and goes on to say the people will see his light through Guru Sahib.


Guru Sahib the submits by saying that he will do as God wills ( give naam).

So for this reason I prefer to interpret "ਮੁਰਸ਼ਿਦੁ ਲ ਆਲਮੀਂ" as high officer who gives Naam. This is not an undermining name as Naam is God, and GOd said through Guru Sahib people will see him ( get Darshan)


humble request to posters- Since I am the only one in opposition to Guru Nanak Sahib being WaaheGuru/aadGuru from the very beginning could you please limit your questions or ask questions directed to original question. I dont have enough time to answer every person who disagrees with me. I feel like im going around and around in circles again repeating the same things over and over.

not that it matters but just to satisfy your curiosity.
The word ਮੁਰਸ਼ਿਦੁ has hebrew origins and relates to its usage in the Bible. The words originates from the hebrew word
midrash (commentary) and Mashiach ( messiah , appointed one).

Thats what I am saying. Murshad never refers to anyone issuing political orders. All the ancient translations which you've posted point to the same.

Sukhdeep Singh Ji, you have not stuck to the topic in strict sense. Quotes I provided clearly prove that Guru Sahib has existed since Aad and was Waheguru Himself when he appeared. Regardless of the conversation in 1499, his status remained the same. He was in direct communion with God even prior to that. He was “Noor” of Waheguru even before he came. You did not provide any reference to prove otherwise. You stated that He was given guruship and merged with Waheguru after the Vein River episode which I refuted in my last post. Focus of my post was status of Guru Sahib prior to 1499. If you hold the belief that the merge took place after Vein episode and he was given guruship at the time then all my questions asked in previous posts need to be answered. What was his status before that? Why did he receive Gurbani? Or even if you believe that the merge took place at some point then you need to explain as to how, when and why it happened at that time.

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Lets not forget Guru Sahib gives naam in all realms including places like Karam Khand. When Bhai Mardana Ji and Guru Sahib went on travels they went on travels beyond this physical world.. Why? For what purpose? Do you mean to tell me Guru Sahibs travels were limited to this world alone?

Neither did I talk about Guru Sahib’s travels nor did I say anything about him going to Karam Khand. I do not know where your statement was fished out from but travel to Karam Khand is your opinion not a fact. What was the purpose to travel to a khand souls of which were/are already praising Waheguru as per Jap Ji Sahib? You say people had forgotten Naam on earth which is why Guru Sahib came so was the case same for souls of Karam Khand? This has nothing to do with the topic so I will leave it alone while disagreeing with your statement.

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"ਜ਼ਿ ਪੈਸ਼ੀਨੀਆਂ ਪੇਸ਼ਤਰ ਆਮਦਾ
ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਕ ਆਪਣੇ ਪਹਿਲਾਂ ਹੋ ਗੁਜ਼ਰੇ ਅਵਤਾਰਾਂ ਤੋਂ ਵੀ ਪਹਿਲਾਂ ਦਾ ਹੈ ।

This means Guru Sahib has existed since Aad as form of Waheguru."

does not mean he has existed since Aaad.

Of course it does. Gurbani quotes provided in previous post prove this. Bhatts call him “Aad Purakh Sada Too(n)”. If he was created at some point then anything created has a beginning (limit) and therefore must have an ending. This means Guru Nanak Sahib will die one day according to your statement. Gurbani says Satguru is “Sada Sada”. He doesn’t become “ever lasting” but has always been “ever lasting”.

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ਆਮਦਾ means come ,and the meaning was he was the first (ਪੇਸ਼ਤਰ _ to come and save out of all other avtars.

Translation I provided comes from Bhai Nand Lal Granthavali. Since I do not know Persian, I cannot comment on the translation but do you have alternate translation done by a reputable scholar?

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Guru Nanak Sahib came into a world which had forgotten Naam, if God has been saving people from all ages with Naam then how did people forget Naam? IF there was a path to Naam in previous Yugs then how did people get initiated into Naam. To have Naam one must have a Guru and take directions from the Guru. In what form did Guru come in previous Jugs. Please dont tell me he came as Vishnu and so forth. The truth is there was no path to Naam as previous avtars failed and they had people worship their own name. Without naam the world was drowning and drowning and resorting to magic.

I made it clear how Naam was given prior to 1469 in my previous post. Your statement shows either you did not read my last post or did not understand it. Please re-read my post before assuming anything. Naam was given to selected individuals by Nirgun Waheguru. Bhatt Bani speaks of this. Naam is Truth and Naam has always existed but it was revealed out in the open for all after 1469. The fact that Guru Sahib has been giving Naam to very few souls proves that even prior to Vein episode, he was Satguru.

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ਸ਼ੁਦਹ ਗੁਮਰਾਹ ਆਲਮੇ ਬੇ-ਮਨ, ਸਾਹਿਰਾਂ ਗਸ਼ਤਹਅੰਦ ਜਾਦੂਏ ਮਨ।

my world ( people) are without a path. they are lost in magic.

This doesn’t prove selected bhagats never attained Naam. It simply means humanity at large was devoid of Naam.

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Thus we can conclude the conversation of God and Guru Sahib did not happen from the beginning of time. You previously stated a conversation took place but then you say Guru Nanak Sahib is aad Guru this is a contradiction in itself. Explain yourself please.

It is not a contradiction. You have made all your arguments based on Vein conversation while ignoring sufficient evidence from Gurbani, Vaars and Bhai Nand Lal Ji. I never said a conversation took place in the beginning of time but made it clear that Guru Sahib has always existed and was in direct communion with Waheguru. Just like an ordinary soul has always existed, just like Ten Gurus sit majestically on their thrones in Sachkhand and just like all the bhagats (gurmukhs) have always lived in Sachkhand, Guru Nanak Sahib as Light of Waheguru has always existed. A mere conversation doesn't negate Guru Sahib being Aad Guru. Did he never talk again after Vein? If yes, then was it not God talking to God then? Please re-read my post clearly. I stated that I will focus on Vein episode in another post. First part of post was focusing on the status of Guru Sahib prior to the Vein conversation. You need to refute the quotes I provided especially Bhatt Bani. Leave Vein episode aside, focus on everything prior to that first then Vein episode can be discussed in proper context. Vein episode cannot be used as a pretext to determine status of Guru Sahib. Guru Rakha

I dont know why this conversation has drifted dramatically to Vein episode. I never once said this is when the conversation happened. I have stated that this is what is seems like some historians are suggested, and the conversation could have taken place anytime. Please provide the reference where I said he was given gurgaddi after bein river. Your statement that it took place in the beginning is ridiculous taking into account the conversation recorded in Ganjnama. WaaheGuru who is Aad GUru specifically told GUru Sahib that people are resorting to Magic and have forgotten the True Naam. I did not know people were practicing magic since the beginning of time. Was this the first act of man ? To practice Magic.

Your statements that Bhagats received naam from WaaheGuru Sahibs nirgun saroop doesnt make sense either. If Guru Sahib gave Naam from Nirgun saroop from the beginning of time why did he appear in 1469? Why cant we get Naam from nirgun saroop the same way today. Now you are stating that Guru Sahib did free Bhagats from other Khands. If this is the case, how is Sach Khand heavily populated as mentioned by Bhagat Ravidas Ji. If people were already on the right track and entering Sach KHand in high numbers what was the purpose of Guru Sahib coming here to save drowning humanity?

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I never once said this is when the conversation happened. I have stated that this is what is seems like some historians are suggested, and the conversation could have taken place anytime. Please provide the reference where I said he was given gurgaddi after bein river.

You stated that He was given guruship at the time the merge took place and the merge happened when the conversation took place. You did not specify any time but all sources are unanimous that the conversation took place in 1499 so this was my underlying assumption. If you believe otherwise you can provide the proof and specify when it really took place because it is important. My contention was that since He is Satguru and always has been, He also had the guruship.

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Your statement that it took place in the beginning is ridiculous taking into account the conversation recorded in Ganjnama.

The conversation did not take place in the beginning of time especially not the one described by Bhai Gurdas, Bhai Nand Lal and Guru Nanak Sahib Himself. I can clarify if you can show me where exactly I stated that. But the conversation in 1499 is very specific and crucial as it marks the beginning of Udasis.

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WaaheGuru who is Aad GUru specifically told GUru Sahib that people are resorting to Magic and have forgotten the True Naam. I did not know people were practicing magic since the beginning of time. Was this the first act of man ? To practice Magic.

When did this convo take place? If I take it literally I can ask: was every human being practicing magic? Even women? Even Mehta Kaloo Ji, Mata Tripta Ji etc? Certainly not. As Bhai Gurdas Ji states, people at large were away from Naam. Who knows when creation began or what first humans did. I never made any claim.

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Your statements that Bhagats received naam from WaaheGuru Sahibs nirgun saroop doesnt make sense either. If Guru Sahib gave Naam from Nirgun saroop from the beginning of time why did he appear in 1469?

So God never gave naam to humans and bhagats prior to 1469 and nobody had any slightest chance to get salvation? Seems very unfair to me. The fact that God sent many prophets and messengers to spread Naam (as stated in Dasam Granth), though failed to preach Satnaam, shows that God did not conceal it. Like I said, Naam was given to very few individuals since Satguru has always been there. Bhatts say that Guru Sahib has had Naam four all four yugs (through entire time). Guru Nanak Sahib was Satguru back then. He did give Naam. It is stated in Gurbani. No one can dispute that. If it doesn’t make sense then I can only suggest you to study it yourself. I am not making it up. Naam was revealed and given openly to all by Guru Sahib after 1469. The process to receive Naam has been made much easier by Guru Sahib. Besides, I cannot say why God did so and so since I have no authority. I can only state what I know from Gurbani and what God did. Why he did it? You’d have to ask him directly.

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Why cant we get Naam from nirgun saroop the same way today.

Because the process has been established now. However, if you were in jail with no parole, dying, and suffering and seriously wanted to be saved and there happens to be a brahmgyani who agrees to do your ardaas, you can get Naam from Nirgun saroop. But chances of something like that are very slim. Bhai Randhir Singh states that this is exactly what happened in jail. I used this as a example to prove that it could’ve happened before and no doubt Dhru and Prehlaad were given naam by Satguru. Who starts digging a well to get water when tap is available? Waheguru is full of grace and it is His grace that Naam is readily available now.

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Now you are stating that Guru Sahib did free Bhagats from other Khands.

Nope. Never said that. Dhru and Prehlaad received Naam in “Satyug” while they were alive. Gurbani is clear on that. You said he traveled to Karam Khand which makes no sense at any level.

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If this is the case, how is Sach Khand heavily populated as mentioned by Bhagat Ravidas Ji. If people were already on the right track and entering Sach KHand in high numbers what was the purpose of Guru Sahib coming here to save drowning humanity?

Ask Bhagat Ravidas Ji directly as I have never seen Sachkhand otherwise I wouldn’t be here. Who knows when the creation began and how many souls there are but it is countless. I wouldn’t be surprised if Sachkhand had billions of souls. After all, people didn’t start achieving salvation after 1469 since there are countless earths and civilizations many of which may be much older than ours. They must have had Naam from Satguru. If people from other planets go to court of Dharam Raj after death (like Bhai Randhir Singh states) then why couldn't some of them go to Sachkhand? Humans don't have monopoly over Naam. First Vaar of Bhai Gurdas Ji states the purpose of Guru Sahib’s coming. Naam wasn’t readily available though it has always existed (Satnaam Tera Para Poorbla). In fact, Naam is the source of everything from maya to entire creation. Naam is the sustainer but this Naam was not given easily and when humanity seriously drifted away, Waheguru Himself came and showed the right path. No prophet or messenger could accomplish such a gigantic task considering it took 240 years to build a new nation.

Could you answer some questions to justify your points:

1) When did Guru Nanak Sahib become Satguru if not since Aad?
2) How did it happen?
3) Who was Satguru before that?

Guru Rakha

Sukhdeep Singh, a part of your post stuck out showing your mind is not quite open, it seems narrow:

"If this is the case, how is Sach Khand heavily populated as mentioned by Bhagat Ravidas Ji. If people were already on the right track and entering Sach KHand in high numbers what was the purpose of Guru Sahib coming here to save drowning humanity?"

You have failed to realise that this earth is one of many billions in this particular universe and there are countless other universes. If even just one bhagat from each earth like planet in the whle of creation reached sachkhand, then sachkhand will be extremely densly populated!
Guru sahib has been to countless planets before coming here, remember sachkhand is beyond time and space. jap ji sahib also states bhagats of many worlds reside in karam khand. You have to look at the bigger picture. If Guru Nanak Dev ji has been to many countless worlds before this earth then does that mean guru ji was a sevak when born then become god, then after physical death going to next world become a sevak again and then god again? Read Bhai Randhir Singh's books this fact has been mentioned of guru nanak dev ji going to and saving countless planets. Again your thinking is narrow, this isn't the only planet look at the bigger picture the answer becomes more clear then.

Vaheguoo Jee Ka KHalsaa, Vaheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!

Good debate by all participants, I particularly like the constructive format used by Bijla Singh when refuting and defending points. I think its a skill everyone should be able replicate in these debates, as it makes everything much clearer and easier to follow.

May Mahraaj bless us all

Bijla Singh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> 1) When did Guru Nanak Sahib become Satguru if not
> since Aad?
> 2) How did it happen?
> 3) Who was Satguru before that?
>
> Guru Rakha

Bhai Sahib,

1. As I have stated before I have no idea as to say the exact time and location took place. Nor can I even estimate the time and location of union. I have stated previously I dont believe in everything recorded in History but still I try to learn from History. I dont believe in all the details of bein episode so I cannot assume union took place at the age of 30. We all know through numerous sakhis Guru Sahib was divine from birth but this does not mean a union did not take place at some time in history. I am still unclear on your position . You are stating a conversation did take place, and it was not at the beginning of time. If this is what you believe then this means a union did take place as there is no other way two entities can have a conversation with one another and then become one.

2. How did it happen? How on earth can a simple person like my even attempt to explain how the union happened. All I can say it happened through GuruWaahegurus boundless blesssing. To have a better understanding how the union took place read Bhai Sahibs writings.
ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਨੇ ਅਪਾਰ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਕੀਤੀ ਕਿ ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਾਕ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਜੀ ਨੂ ਪਹਿਲਾ ਆਪਣੇ ਸਰੂਪ ਨਾਲ਼ ਇਕ-ਮਿਕ ਕੀਤਾ। ਫੇਰ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਲ ਇਕ-ਮਿਕ ਹੋਏ ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਾਕ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਨੂੰ ਆਪਣੀ ਧੁਰ ਦਰਗਾਗੋਂ ਐਸਾ ਨਾਮ ਬਖ਼ਸ਼ਿਆ.
- Bhai Randhir Singh Ji

3. SatGuru (God) was Guru before that. SatGuru became one with Nanak. Guru Nanak Sahib did not make himself Guru ; Gurgaddi was given by God himself.

ਸਚੇ ਗੁਰਮਕਿ, ਮੁਖੀ ਗੁਰੂ, ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਆਪ ਖੁਦ ਹੋਏ ? ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਨੂ ਖੁਦ ਗੁਰੂ ਧਾਰਨ ਕੀਤਾ!

Did Guru Nanak Sahib become Guru by himself? WaaheGuru himself made Guru Nanak Sahib the Guru !
- Bhai Randhir SIngh Ji


Im still trying to register the fact how you believe people before would get naam from WaaheGurus nirgun Jot? WaaheGuru Nirgunjot ( his Darshan) is Sach Khand. A person can not have darshan of WaaheGurus jot without obtaining Naam from the true Guru. This is a Gurmat principle/method recorded in Sri Guru Grant Sahib Ji. Im sure you know this already. A person can not have darshan of WaaheGuru untill they have darshan of themselves .

ਜਨ ਨਾਨਕ ਬਿਨੁ ਆਪਾ ਚੀਨੈ ਮਿਟੈ ਨ ਭ੍ਰਮ ਕੀ ਕਾਈ ॥੨॥੧॥

But you are claiming all these people received naam by WaaheGurus Nirgun jot (having darshan of WaaheGuru). Before having WaaheGurus darshan one must have realization of their own atma which comes from naam alone. But you are stating a reversed method and it is not the Gurmat method of imparting Naam. Yes there are rare blessed souls who get naam and instantly they get Darshan but before Darshan they must have Naam from SatGuru.


On a side not I dont consider this to be a debate but instead a discussion. Im not a scholar Im only a simple Singh with strict monotheistic beliefs. My library contains a few Gurmat books while Bhai Bijla Singh Ji who is a scholar probably has shelves of Gurmat books. If he considers this to be a debate then I will request GurmatBibek.com send him a winning certificate as I am not interested in winning or losing debates.

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Sukhdeep Singh
On a side not I dont consider this to be a debate but instead a discussion. Im not a scholar Im only a simple Singh with strict monotheistic beliefs. My library contains a few Gurmat books while Bhai Bijla Singh Ji who is a scholar probably has shelves of Gurmat books. If he considers this to be a debate then I will request GurmatBibek.com send him a winning certificate as I am not interested in winning or losing debates.

If you re-read the comment above, and still can't figure out through your conscience, what is wrong with your words/attitude/aproach . Then Chatrik doesn;t know what else to say.

Chota veer

Sukhdeep Singh Ji,

Also there was no reason to call out Bijla Singh in your post - he hasn't said anything to suggest that this is a debate and to post that gurmatbibek should give him a certificate if he thinks it is was really unwarranted

Tarun Singh Ji, Im not calling on Bijla Singh Ji. Im sure that he is also not interested in winning debates. I really dont know? If he is then he can ask for a winning certificate.

ppiyasi chatrik ji as usually I really dont understand what you are saying. Im only simple so please speak straight forward as a simpleton I can only understand straight talk. Once again I consider myself to be strict monotheist . Am I claiming im the only strict monotheist in the world or on this forum? No , of course not. Nor am I claiming Bijla Singh is a polytheist. We all have different understanding of what monotheism is. Some of us like me have an rigid understanding while others are more " flexible"

Khalsa jee, one thing I have been told by several elder Gursikhs, when we do charcha we lose a lot.

Especially on the Internet, we can't read the tone and attitude of typed text, so sometimes it's better to discuss complex issues face to face. Too many things get out of context or off topic.

Perhaps on the computer someone's posts may be seen as rude, argumentative, egotistical etc but if it was verbal they might not have any of those attitudes and were in fact saying in very polite way.

Sometimes we can have constructive and informative discussions on-line as well, but other times personal emotions get in the way and we do not keep love and respect for those who oppose our view. I am speaking for only myself on this one.

Overall I think there were some good posts in this thread, and I read some new things. Would like to see a satisfying and respectful conclusion to it as well.

Sukhdeep Singh Ji, daas is not a scholar and certainly this is not a debate but a discussion.

Your point is well understood that Guru Nanak Sahib became Satguru at some point when he merged with Akal Purakh. I do not agree with this and seems like neither does anyone else on this forum. The reason being that it causes a dilemma as to status of Guru Sahib and his nature of existence prior to that event. When Gurbani calls Guru Sahib “Sada Sada”, “Abinashi Purakh” and “Aad Purakh” it leaves no doubt that Guru Nanak Sahib has existed forever. I will discuss the conversation in another post and why I think it took place in 1499 and not before. But I have a different viewpoint of this event. I could be wrong on this but the absolute truth of Gurbani leaves no alternative.

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Im still trying to register the fact how you believe people before would get naam from WaaheGurus nirgun Jot? WaaheGuru Nirgunjot ( his Darshan) is Sach Khand. A person can not have darshan of WaaheGurus jot without obtaining Naam from the true Guru. This is a Gurmat principle/method recorded in Sri Guru Grant Sahib Ji. Im sure you know this already. A person can not have darshan of WaaheGuru untill they have darshan of themselves .

Waheguru does not need to give darshan in order to impart Naam. He can do it without revealing Himself to the devotee just like He gave naam to an inmate of Bhai Sahib. If Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji could help Lakhi Shah in the sea without appearing there and Guru Hargobind Ji could save Bhai Bidhi Chand in the blazing fire without appearing there then Waheguru too can give Naam without revealing Himself. If he can give simran to an unborn child in the womb without appearing there then what is stopping Him from imparting Naam without ever revealing Himself? Only He knows intricate details of His doings. I only speak from what I know. How else can you explain Guru Sahib giving Naam to Dhru and Prehlaad prior to 1469?

Let me ask you something in light of your own statement. How could Guru Sahib get darshan of Waheguru without obtaining Naam first? Do not say “pure nadar” because it goes against the Gurmat principle and Waheguru does not work randomly. He has established a process and everyone must abide by it and He set an example by following it first. He doesn’t break His own laws. Also, your own statement goes against your reference. Bhai Sahib says:

ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਾਕ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਜੀ ਨੂ ਪਹਿਲਾ ਆਪਣੇ ਸਰੂਪ ਨਾਲ਼ ਇਕ-ਮਿਕ ਕੀਤਾ। ਫੇਰ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਲ ਇਕ-ਮਿਕ ਹੋਏ ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਾਕ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਨੂੰ ਆਪਣੀ ਧੁਰ ਦਰਗਾਗੋਂ ਐਸਾ ਨਾਮ ਬਖ਼ਸ਼ਿਆ.

This means Guru Sahib became one with Waheguru first and then received Naam. Is it not against Gurmat principle you mentioned? Explain it please.

Again, I will try to write something on the conversation later on. Guru Rakha

If Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji could help Lakhi Shah in the sea

It was a typo. It should be Makhan Shah.

Veer Jaskirat SIngh Ji is right sometimes people misinterpret certain statements, and sometimes people get too emotionally involved in discussions. I like discussing Gurmat with Bhai Bijla Singh Ji because he is a straight forward Singh who doesnt let his emotions affect his vichar. Also, I respect him because he has made the most efforts in answering my questions instead of giving "side smart alec remarks"or sending private negative messages. We are in Kaljug and its hard to find people who like to discuss religion, since BHai Sahib has given the time and effort to discuss SIkhi I have respect for him. We should respect any Gursikhs who recites and most importantly contemplates Gurbani. But this doesnt mean we need to agree with each and evey view of our brothers. When I say Im a strict monotheist it is a general statement. Its not based on Ego and its not made to undermine anyone. Its stated to simply say I think they way I think because Im a strict monotheist. People ask me why I dont go to parties or eat from polytheist and I tell them because Im a strict monotheist so I dont understand why some people are blowing my statements out of proportion.


Bhai Bijla Singh Ji,

When Gurbani refers to Satguru Ji as “Sada Sada”, “Abinashi Purakh” and “Aad Purakh” Guru Sahib is referring to SatGuru. You stated that in the past devotees received Naam from WaaheGurus Nirgun Saroop. My understanding of this statement is they received Darshan and thats how they got name. If I am misunderstanding your statement please explain how one gets Naam from Nirgun saroop of Waheguroooo. The method to get Naam is mentioned in Guru GRanth Sahib Ji, and this method is meant/intended for Abhilakhees.
ਜਉ ਸਾਧੂ ਕਰੁ ਮਸਤਕਿ ਧਰਿਓ ਤਬ ਹਮ ਮੁਕਤ ਭਏ ॥੨॥

One cannot get mukhti without receiving Naam fro thee Sadhu ( SatGuru Nanak Sahib Ji) One needs a Guru and one has to be a practicing devotee of SatGuru Ji. Do you mean to tell me that Bhagat Ravidas and Sheikh Farid Ji followed the same Guru while in this world?

The method to impart naam is not intended for the appointed SatGuru ( GUru Nanak Sahib JI ). What Bhai Sahib stated does not go against any Gurmat principle as Guru Nanak was appointed as SatGuru by SatGuru. When we get Naam from SatGuru Nanak Sahib Ji we are not appointed as Satguru; instead we are appointed as Gursikh or Gurmukh ( follower of Guru) thus the method of how we get naam is different as to how Guru Nanak the appointed SatGUru received Naam. You have clearly mentioned " Gurbani leaves no alternative" . The method on receiving Naam is permanent for all time and is recorded in Gurbani. We cant assume previous Bhagats received Naam the same way Guru Nanak Sahib did , because previous Bhagats were not appointed SatGuru by SatGuru Ji.

Bhai Gurdas Ji has clearly stated
ਪਹਿਲਾਂ ਬਾਬੇ ਪਾਯਾ ਬਖਸੁ ਦਰਿ ਪਿਛੋ ਦੇ ਫਿਰਿ ਘਾਲ ਕਮਾਈ

What Bakhshees did Baba ( Guru Nanak) receive and at what door ?