God is God,and Baba Nanak was his Servant

Last night I was having a heated discussion with a Singh about who Pehli Patshah was. We talked for a long time and both of us kept going in circles; consequently, we did not come to a final consensus. The Singh requested that I post the topic on GurmatBibek and see what sangats views are . So upon his request I have posted this topic.

The Singh is much more knowledgeable then I am. He has read more Gurmat books, and has had more sangat with Gurmukhs, but I was shocked by some of his views. I know some of his views are popular amongst the majority, but never the less I was shocked that these views were coming out of the mouth from someone who studies Gurbani.

Last night the Singh mentioned Pehli Paatshah was God from the beginning of his birth He also mentioned how pehli Paatshah was different then the proceeding Gurus. Meaning he was born as God, while others like Guru Gobind Singh Ji became manifestation of God only after Gurgaddi. To me this does not make any sense.

I would like to start by stating in no way am I trying to undermine Guru Sahib and his status. Guru Sahib is the love of my life and the light of the world. Without him I'm like a fish without water. There is no understanding without Guru Sahib, and nobody can make any spiritual progression without his loving grace the same way a child can not develop without a loving mother. Only blinded people say there is a difference between Sri Akal Purakh and Guru Sahib, but at the same time I believe Guru Sahib is servant of God. I know this sounds like a contradiction but I will try my best to explain what I mean. Pehli Paatshah through Sri Akal Purakhs grace did lots of Bhagti and so he was blessed by Sri Akal Purakh to give humanity Naam. Because Naam is God, and Guru Sahib is the giver/connector of Naam there is no difference between the two.

In his leaflet titled " Adrisht Partakh WaaheGuruu" Bhai Randhir Singh Ji mentions how Pehli Paatshah was given apar Kirpa (boundless blessings ) by Akak Purakh. First Pehli Paatshah with single minded devotion was able to see his own saroop ( atma) and then later he was blessed with darshan of Parmatma. Bhai Sahib goes on to mention that Guru Sahib received Naam at Gods door, and that only through Guru Sahib can one get naam.

Bhai Gurdas Ji mentions something very similar he states

ਪਹਿਲਾਂ ਬਾਬੇ ਪਾਯਾ ਬਖਸੁ ਦਰਿ ਪਿਛੋ ਦੇ ਫਿਰਿ ਘਾਲ ਕਮਾਈ

First Baba Nanak received the blessings at the door then he was able to to do ਘਾਲ ਕਮਾਈ (naam jaap). Bhai Gurdas Ji concludes this pauri by stating Baba Nanak came to bestow Naam and save the strayed humanity.
[www.sikhitothemax.com]


In Ganj Nama, Bhai Nand Lal Ji narrates the conversation between Sri Akal Purakh and Pehli Paatshah. Akal Purakh told Pehli Paatshah how people have strayed and no longer feel devoted to him instead they feel more pleasure in things like sorcery. He then told Pehli Paatshah to save the strayed humanity, and Pehli Paatshah with utmost humility responded by stating

ਗ਼ੁਫਤ ਮਨ ਬੰਦਾ ਓ ਗ਼ੁਲਾਮੇ ਤੁਅਮ॥ ਖਾਕੇ ਅਕਦਾਮੇ ਖਾਸੋ ਆਮੇ ਤੁਅਮਿ॥

meaning: In WaaheGurus presence Guru Sahib requested and stated that I am your person/man and slave. I am the dust of both your special and ordinary devotees. Meaning that he will give Naam to all special ( high , rich) and ordinary ( poor) without discrimination.

So if Guru Sahib received Naam through his devotion how can we say he was God from the beginning?

ਗੁਰੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਨਿਕਟਿ ਬਸੈ ਬਨਵਾਰੀ ॥

Guru Nanak dwells near the Lord.
- Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji

I made a mistake . Bhai Sahibs leaflet is titled "Adrisht WaaheGuroooo Dey Partakh Darshan"

This Shabad is by Bhatt Keerath in Svaiyay Mehl 5 on Pannaa 1395

aap naraaein kalaa dhhaar jag mehi paravariyo ||
nira(n)kaar aakaar joth jag ma(n)ddal kariyo ||
jeh keh theh bharapoor sabadh dheepak dheepaayo ||
jih sikheh sa(n)grehiou thath har charan milaayo ||
naanak kul ni(n)mal avathariyo a(n)gadh lehanae sa(n)g hua ||
gur amaradhaas thaaran tharan janam janam paa saran thua ||2||16||

The Lord Himself wielded His Power and entered the world.
The Formless Lord took form, and with His Light He illuminated the realms of the world.
He is All-pervading everywhere; the Lamp of the Shabad, the Word, has been lit.
Whoever gathers in the essence of the teachings shall be absorbed in the Feet of the Lord.
Lehnaa, who became Guru Angad, and Guru Amar Daas, have been reincarnated into the pure house of Guru Nanak.
Guru Amar Daas is our Saving Grace, who carries us across; in lifetime after lifetime, I seek the Sanctuary of Your Feet. ||2||16||


Bhai Nand Lal Ji writes in Jot Bigas:

Guru Nanak is the embodiment of the Almighty
No doubt, he is immaculate and formless.(1)

From these things Daas feels that there is no doubt that Guru Nanak was Akal Purakh himself

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

Please also put up the counter-argument offered by the other Gursikh so both arguments can be analyzed.

Sukhdeep Singh jeeo,

Could you please clarify if Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee was just a servant of Vaheguru and not Vaheguru's Guru form i.e. Vaheguru Himself. We clearly see that in Bhatt Savaiyas, Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee has been called Vaheguru Himself. What's your opinion on that?

Kulbir Singh

MS514 Veer JI ,

I cannot provide any counter argument as to how Pehli Paatshah was born as God as the Singh did not provide any references. He told me to refer to Nanak Parkash, and I told him there was no point in doing so.

Bhai Tarun Singh Ji, the quotes you have provided are referring to GUru Sahiban ( Pehli Paatshah and Dasmi Paatshah) when they were Guru given gurgaddi. These quotes do not prove that Guru Nanak Sahib was born with Gurgaddi. Bhai Nand Lal rightly refers to Sri Guru Nanak Sahib Ji as God, the same way he indicated Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji is the roop of God.

ਨੂਰ ਦਰ ਹਰ ਚਸਮ ਗੁਰੂ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਸਿੰਘ

Guru Gobind Singh Ji is the light in each and every eye.


Bhai Kublir Singh Ji,

I strongly believe Sri Guru Nanak Sahib "was" the form of WaaheGuru the same way I believe Sri Guru Angad Dev Ji was the form of WaaheGuru himself and Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji " being" thee form of WaaheGuroooo.
ਇਕਾ ਬਾਣੀ ਇਕੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਇਕੋ ਸਬਦੁ ਵੀਚਾਰਿ ॥

But the question here is about Sri Baba Nanak Sahib Ji . Some people believe Pehli Paatshah was born as Guru ( WaaheGurus form) while others like myself believe Sri Akal Purakh Ji gave him this blessing later. I believe Baba Nanak Sahib Ji , Bhai Lehna Ji, Baba Amar Das Ji, were servants of WaaheGuru.

Bhai Gurdas Ji ( Vaaran 1) , Bhai Nand Lal Ji ( Ganj Nama/Pehli Patshahee, pangti 23), and Bhai Randhir Singh Ji ( Adrisht WaaheGuroooo Dey Partakh Darshan , pg 1 and 2) have all stated that Sri Baba Nanak was given status by WaaheGuruu.

ਤਿਲੰਗ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥
ਜੈਸੀ ਮੈ ਆਵੈ ਖਸਮ ਕੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਤੈਸੜਾ ਕਰੀ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਵੇ ਲਾਲੋ ॥
As the Word of the Forgiving Lord comes to me, so do I express it, O Lalo.

Quote
Sukhdeep singh
Some people believe Pehli Paatshah was born as Guru ( WaaheGurus form) while others like myself believe Sri Akal Purakh Ji gave him this blessing later.

(this is the same concept believed in by Sunni Muslim on Mohammed's prophethood, while Shias say he was prophet from birth)


Lets assume for a second that what you believe in is correct.
when was this blessing was received by SatGuroo?
How was it received then?
How did the blessing 'occur' ?

Actualy your views are quite similar to that of dodgy-SDO of say that Guru Sahib was a 'messenger' and not Vaheguro form itself.

Chota veer

Sukhdeep Singh Ji, assuming your interpretation is correct then please answer the following questions first:

1) What was the status of Guru Sahib until the age 30 (when you say he received Naam)?
2) Which religion did he follow until then?
3) How should we regard the banis he revealed before receiving Naam i.e. Saloaks of Aasa Ki Vaar, Shabads regarding Muslims/Islam, Patti Likhi etc?
4) How was guruship given to him?
5) Why was he chosen in particular and not others? What made him different?
6) How could he go to Sachkhand without having any naam kamayee? How come others cannot do the same i.e. go straight to Waheguru to receive Naam instead of going through Guru Sahib?

I would request you to not to refer to Guru Sahib’s status in past form as Guru Sahib still IS Satguru and lives in Aad Guru Granth Sahib and Guru Panth. Guru Rakha

In Sikhi, it is quite blasphemous to assume messenger is any different then WaaheGuru. Since message is DHur KI Bani and Gurbani is God. This concept is clear to me and Im not going to keep going around and around in circles about it. I dont understand why people assume being a servant /slave or messenger WaaheGuru Is a low position. Whether my views are based SDO I do not know, I have based my views my understanding on the writings of Gurbani Scholars like BHai GUrdas Ji, Bhai Nand Lal Ji , and BHai Gurdas Ji.

If you believe a conversation did not take place between Guru Nanak and WaaheGuru JI then how do you explain Ganjnama in which BHai mentions a conversation took place. Do you mean to tell me ganjnama is a false writing. During this conversation God praised Guru Nanak and refereed to him as God of both worlds, and GUru sahib in pure humility told WaaheGuru Ji that he was his gulam ( slave). These are Guru Sahibs words not mine.

In Janam Sakhi, when Guru Sahib was at Kalibein and received darshan of WaheGurooooooo ,WaaheGuru expressed the need to propagate Naam In Kaljug. Guru Sahib then sung the following shabad
[www.sikhitothemax.com]

Again at this point WaaheGuru JI praised Guru Sahib and referred to him as Gur-parmeshar ( God)
ਮੈ ਆਦਿ ਪਰਮੇਸੁਰ ਔਰ ਤੂ ਗੁਰ ਪਰਮੇਸੁਰ
I am the God that has been here from the very beginning, and you are GUru Parmeshar.
Janam Sakhi

Next Guru Sahib recited the following pauri
[www.sikhitothemax.com]

Perhaps it was at this point when Guru Sahib was given Divine mission. We know before this Guru Sahib was blessed with Gurbani but according to historical accounts this seems to be the point in which Guru Sahib had intimate conversation with WaaheGuruu Ji. Do you believe Sakhi of Kalibein is false as well?

Also if Guru Nanak was always God then why does Bhaji mention in his book "Sach Khand Darshan" the "10" kings not nine sit majestically on the throne at Sri Sach Khand? If Guru Nanak was always God then he would be Sach Khand not sitting in Sach Khand.

ਗੁਰ ਅਰਜੁਨ ਸਿਰਿ ਛਤ੍ਰੁ ਆਪਿ ਪਰਮੇਸਰਿ ਦੀਅਉ ॥
ਮਿਲਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਅੰਗਦ ਅਮਰ ਗੁਰ ਗੁਰੁ ਰਾਮਦਾਸੁ ਹਰਿ ਪਹਿ ਗਯਉ ॥
ਹਰਿਬੰਸ ਜਗਤਿ ਜਸੁ ਸੰਚਰ੍ਯ੍ਯਉ ਸੁ ਕਵਣੁ ਕਹੈ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰੁ ਮੁਯਉ ॥੧॥
ਦੇਵ ਪੁਰੀ ਮਹਿ ਗਯਉ ਆਪਿ ਪਰਮੇਸ੍ਵਰ ਭਾਯਉ ॥
ਹਰਿ ਸਿੰਘਾਸਣੁ ਦੀਅਉ ਸਿਰੀ ਗੁਰੁ ਤਹ ਬੈਠਾਯਉ ॥

To assume Guru Nanak was different then proceeding Gurus causes duality in ones understanding of who and what GUru is. Only some new age cults believe GUru Nanak is more special then proceeding GUrus. Who on earth has the right to refer to Guru Gobind Singh Ji as a second class GUru.

Bijla Singh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sukhdeep Singh Ji, assuming your interpretation is
> correct then please answer the following questions
> first:
>
> 1) What was the status of Guru Sahib until the age
> 30 (when you say he received Naam)?
> 2) Which religion did he follow until then?
> 3) How should we regard the banis he revealed
> before receiving Naam i.e. Saloaks of Aasa Ki
> Vaar, Shabads regarding Muslims/Islam, Patti Likhi
> etc?
> 4) How was guruship given to him?
> 5) Why was he chosen in particular and not others?
> What made him different?
> 6) How could he go to Sachkhand without having any
> naam kamayee? How come others cannot do the same
> i.e. go straight to Waheguru to receive Naam
> instead of going through Guru Sahib?
>
> I would request you to not to refer to Guru
> Sahib’s status in past form as Guru Sahib still
> IS Satguru and lives in Aad Guru Granth Sahib and
> Guru Panth. Guru Rakha


GUru Sahib followed the religion of WaaheGuru from day one.He did intense kamaee from day 1. He did so much Kamaee his mother and father thought he has gone krazy. I cannot claim Guru Sahib received Naam at age 30, but if historical accounts are true then perhaps this is the case. I can only go by what is written .

How did Guru Nanak reach Sach Khand without Naam Kamaee? Answer is obvious through WaaheGuru jis pure kirpa. While it is true that only through Naam can one go to Sach Khand, WaaheGuru JI blessed Guru Nanak and gave him Naam at Sach Khand to give to the ordinary people and the special people ( angels in different realms). Hence he is GOd of both worlds as God has stated.

How would you classify Shabad Hazarey (5) bani ?

"I would request you to not to refer to Guru
Sahib’s status in past form as Guru Sahib still
IS Satguru and lives in Aad Guru Granth Sahib and
Guru Panth. Guru Rakha"

Because we are speaking in words its kind of hard to refer to historical incidences and not use language for past tense.
God is God from the very beginning. Guru Nanak is Guru Parmeshar and God of both worlds. All devtas from different worlds and mortals of this world can only get liberation ( go to Sach Khand) from Guru Nanak. THis rule is written in stone and cant be changed.

Now that I have answered your questions can you please answer the above questions I have asked pyaaschatrik.

thanks

To clear any misconceptions I would like to state Guru Nanak Sahibs jot surrounds the whole universe. Only through his grace can one get mukhti. He has been given status " God, of both worlds" by WaaheGuru JI. WaaheGuru JI is WaaheGuru Ji and has been so from the very beginning. We cannot understand him ( WaaheGuru) or his nature we can only learn from Guru Nanak who is God of both worlds.

Sukhdeep Singh Ji, you have addressed only few parts of my questions.

Quote

GUru Sahib followed the religion of WaaheGuru from day one.He did intense kamaee from day 1.

How did he know what “religion of Waheguru” is without receiving Naam? You first stated that he did immense kamayee after receiving Naam. Now you say he did kamayee from day 1. Which is true?

Quote

How did Guru Nanak reach Sach Khand without Naam Kamaee? Answer is obvious through WaaheGuru jis pure kirpa.

This answer is not very clear. Waheguru’s kirpa is not random. Why did He choose Guru Sahib when lots of other bhagats like Ramanand, Kabir etc were alive? How could Guru Sahib receive Gurbani from Sachkhand without guruship?

Quote

How would you classify Shabad Hazarey (5) bani ?

This is not an answer. If you don’t know then admit it. No need to ask another question. Guru Arjan dev Ji could not use the name “Nanak” without becoming a Guru. His own Shabad says “Bhaag Hoaa Gur Sant Milaeya” which clearly means Guru blessed him and he received Waheguru (Sant). This refutes the assertion that Arjan Dev Ji met Guru Raamdas Ji and composed the Shabad. Had this been the case the pankti would’ve been the other way “Sant (Waheguru) blessed him (Arjan Dev) and met Guru (Guru Raamdas Ji). Those who used the name “Nanak” were kicked out of Panth and their compositions were declared “kachi”. Now please answer my remaining questions. My intent is to better understand your point of view before addressing your references.

What was the status of Guru Sahib until the age 30 (when you say he received Naam)?
How should we regard the banis he revealed before receiving Naam i.e. Saloaks of Aasa Ki Vaar, Shabads regarding Muslims/Islam, Patti Likhi etc?
How was guruship given to him?
Why was he chosen in particular and not others? What made him different?
How come others cannot go straight to Waheguru to receive Naam instead of going through Guru Sahib?

Sukhdeep Singh, one general request, without doing your own Viakhiya of Gurbaani, please explain the following common Pankti:


ਗੁਰੁ ਪਰਮੇਸਰੁ ਏਕੋ ਜਾਣੁ ॥

Veer Jee, I must say on this one I am in full agreement with the Singh you were debating with. I don't have any knowledge or references to prove it, but that is my view.

Vaheguru Himself and Guru from time of prakash.

Bijla Singh i never once made the statment Guru Sahib receive Naam at age 3O please do not put words in my mouth. I did make the statement that historians have insinuated this would be the point of time in which Guru Sahib was given Hukum form Guru Sahib. Do I agree with historians? I agree that kalibein sakhi is authentic , but I cannot claim this was the first incident in which Guru Sahib had intimate conversations with Aaad Guru. This is the first incident of intimate conservations recorded and observed by historians. This does not mean I believe Guru Sahib did not receive instructions before this incident. Either way the time and place of Guru Sahibs meeting/merger with Aad Guru is irrelevant. What is relevant and the topic being discussed is did such an merger occur?

Bijla Singh Ji before I answer your never ending questions I have a humble request that you answer three very simple questions. All I ask for you is to answer these three questions then I will answer whatever questions you have one by one so we dont get off topic.

1. In Ganjnama, why does Bhai Nand Lal Ji mention a conversation took place between God an Guru Nanak ?

2. Why does Bhai Randhir Singh Ji say Guru Nanak merged/became ek-mekh into God and received Naam?

3. Is kalibein sakhi a false story?

If Guru Nanak merged and had conversations with God he cannot be referred to Aad Guru whom is beyond understanding. Once again , God is God, Guru Nanak is Guru Parmeshar the God of both worlds .

Jaspreet Singh Ji I dont understand how I can "without doing your own Viakhiya of Gurbaani please explain the following common Pankti" . I dont understand how Im suppose to explain Gurbani without my understanding? The pangti you provided according to my simple understanding is recognize God and Guru as one. Guru is parmeshar. I have been saying this from the beginning. The point that is being discussed is did Guru Nanak merge in to WaaheGuru. Others are suggesting no because he is WaaheGuru - aad Guru. While Im suggesting Aaad Guru is beyond our comprhension. Guru- Parmeshar -Sri Guru Nanak Sahib Ji through Aaad Gurus grace merged into WaaheGuru and per WaaheGurus orders shows strayed humanity the way to WaaheGuru/Aaad Guru who is beyond comprehension.

Could you please explain what the following pangti means

ਗੁਰੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਨਿਕਟਿ ਬਸੈ ਬਨਵਾਰੀ ॥

ਜੋ ਹਮ ਕੋ ਪਰਮੇਸਰ ਉਚਰਿ ਹੈਂ ॥ ਤੇ ਸਭ ਨਰਕਿ ਕੁੰਡ ਮਹਿ ਪਰਿਹੈਂ ॥ਮੋ ਕੌ ਦਾਸ ਤਵਨ ਕਾ ਜਾਨੋ ॥ ਯਾ ਮੈ ਭੇਦ ਨ ਰੰਚ ਪਛਾਨੋ ॥੩੨॥ ਮੈ ਹੋ ਪਰਮ ਪੁਰਖ ਕੋ ਦਾਸਾ ॥ ਦੇਖਨਿ ਆਯੋ ਜਗਤ ਤਮਾਸਾ ॥ਜੋ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਜਗਤਿ ਕਹਾ ਸੋ ਕਹਿ ਹੋਂ ॥ ਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਲੋਕ ਤੇ ਮੋਨਿ ਨ ਰਹਿਹੋਂ ॥੩੩॥

Whosoever shall call me the Lord, shall fall into hell.
Consider me as His servant and do not think of any difference between me and the Lord.32.
I am the servant of the Supreme Purusha and hath come to see the Sport of the world.
Whatever the Lord of the world said, I say the same unto you, I cannot remain silent in this abode of death.33.
-Sri "GUru " Gobind Singh Ji MahaRaaaj Jeeeeo

sukhdeep singh the translation of that pangti from dasam granth is not correct as per bhai pinderpal singh jis katha

bhai sahib mentions this in part 6 (i think) of the katha which is linked below

[www.youtube.com]

Sukhdeep Singh Ji, reason for asking too many questions is to understand your justification. My understanding is that Guru Nanak Sahib was no different than Waheguru Himself when he appeared in 1469. He has been in existence since the beginning as part of Waheguru. As far as other 9 gurus are concerned, they were enlightened souls or avtars as Bhai Gurdas Ji calls them but once they became Guru and sat on the true throne, they also became “Nanak Jot”. They referred to themselves as Nanak. It does not mean they are any different now but they were not born as Gurus. They had to go through all the tests to be qualified. Brief answers to your questions are as follows:

1. Because it happened as is mentioned in other sources as well.
2. I remember reading a detailed explanation in his book but do not have the reference now. I will post it as I remember reading it if I can’t find the reference.
3. No.

If you study Gurbani and Vaars closely you will come to find that Guru Sahib was not just a messenger who had come to deliver the message. Messenger to me is like a postman who delivers the letters and messages while the deliverer and recipient remain separate. Since Guru Sahib was in direct communion with Waheguru whatever he said came to be passed as a revealed message. This is not to say he said anything out of whims. This is a separate topic so I will leave it alone.
Guru Nanak Sahib has been Satguru from the very beginning. I might write more on it if the topic remains open and Guru Sahib gives me enough time. Quote from Dasam Granth has a specific implication behind it and it does not go against Gurbani which clearly states that Guru is God. Now you can answer my questions. Guru Rakha

ਜਿਨਿ ਗੁਰੁ ਸੇਵਿਆ ਤਿਸੁ ਭਉ ਨ ਬਿਆਪੈ ॥
One who serves the Guru is not afflicted with fear.

ਜਿਨਿ ਗੁਰੁ ਸੇਵਿਆ ਤਿਸੁ ਦੁਖੁ ਨ ਸੰਤਾਪੈ ॥
One who serves the Guru does not suffer in pain.

ਨਾਨਕ ਸੋਧੇ ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਬੇਦ ॥
Nanak has studied the Simritees and the Vedas.

ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗੁਰ ਨਾਹੀ ਭੇਦ ॥੪॥੧੧॥੨੪॥
There is no difference between the Supreme Lord God and the Guru. ||4||11||24||

Bhai Tarun Singh Ji,

The Gurbani quote
ਮੈ ਹੋ ਪਰਮ ਪੁਰਖ ਕੋ ਦਾਸਾ

is pretty clear and straight forward. I dont see how we can translate the above meaning to mean anything else but Guru Gobind Singh Ji saying he is Das ( Sevant ) of Aaad Guru- WaaheGuru. There is no difference between Aaad Guru and Guru Gobind Singh Ji as Aaad Guru merged in Guru Gobind Singh Ji, but one cannot claim Guru Gobind Singh Ji or Guru Nanak Sahib Ji to be aad Guru from the very beginning of time.

Bhai Bijla Singh JI

Thanks for taking the time to answer my question, but when briefly answering you mentioned Kalibein Sakh is true, and you mentioned a conversation between Aaad Guru/WaaheGuru and Guru nanak Sahib Ji took place ( refer to answer 1 and 2) . Could you please explain how can a conversation between God and God took place. This alone proves that Aaad Guru and Guru Nanak were two separate entities and became one through WaaheGuru Sahib Jis grace.

To better understand your thinking I have one additional question. Before 1469 was anybody able to enter Sach Khand if so how did they do so? Did any person have naam before 1469?

Also, I like to keep this discussion focused on the main point which is did Guru Nanak Sahib Ji merge into WaaheGuru or was he WaaheGuru from the beginning. When are post become too long then focus gets drifted to a different topic and the main point becomes lost. For this reason I will answer the questions which I feel are most related to the topic. After I answer these questions you can ask me another pair ( 2) of questions. Your original questions were

1) What was the status of Guru Sahib until the age 30 (when you say he received Naam)?
2) Which religion did he follow until then?
3) How should we regard the banis he revealed before receiving Naam i.e. Saloaks of Aasa Ki Vaar, Shabads regarding Muslims/Islam, Patti Likhi etc?
4) How was guruship given to him?
5) Why was he chosen in particular and not others? What made him different?
6) How could he go to Sachkhand without having any naam kamayee? How come others cannot do the same i.e. go straight to Waheguru to receive Naam instead of going through Guru Sahib?



Again,for the third time Im not claiming Guru Sahib received Gurgaddi at age 30. I believe in Kalibein Sakhi as well, but this doesnt necessarily mean I believe in all the details. However I do believe in the gist of the story which Is Guru nanak Sahib had a conversation with God in which God told him the following.
ਮੈ ਆਦਿ ਪਰਮੇਸੁਰ ਔਰ ਤੂ ਗੁਰ ਪਰਮੇਸੁਰ
I am the God that has been here from the very beginning, and you are GUru Parmeshar.

The age, and exact location is not important to me, so I cannot make any claim as to when he was made Gurgaddi. Again, I do believe he was given Gurgaddi from WaaheGuru and was blessed with naam to distribute to humanity. In " Adrisht WaaheGuru Dey Partak Darshan" Bhai Randhir SIngh Ji also mentions the following

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਨੇ ਅਪਾਰ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਕੀਤੀ ਕਿ ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਾਕ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਜੀ ਨੂ ਪਹਿਲਾ ਆਪਣੇ ਸਰੂਪ ਨਾਲ਼ ਇਕ-ਮਿਕ ਕੀਤਾ। ਫੇਰ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਲ ਇਕ-ਮਿਕ ਹੋਏ ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਾਕ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਨੂੰ ਆਪਣੀ ਧੁਰ ਦਰਗਾਗੋਂ ਐਸਾ ਨਾਮ ਬਖ਼ਸ਼ਿਆ.

From the following one can only conjure that Guru Sahib did merge into WaaheGuru and after this emergence he was blessed with Naam from Sach Khand. When this emergence occured? Who knows? Maybe thousands of years ago. One can only speculate? But a union between the 2 did occur.

Bhai Randhir Singh Ji mentions that Guru Nanak Sahib Ji was blessed with GurGaddi, because other messengers before him thought they were God, and had people worship them as God. Dasmi Paatshah also mentions this in Bachitar Natak.

ਸਭ ਤੇ ਅਪਨਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਾਯੋ ॥ ਸਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਾਹੂੰ ਨ ਦ੍ਰਿੜਾਯੋ ॥੨੭॥
All previous prophets had people worship their own name and did not tell people of the true name ( WaaheGuru) .27.

Bhai Nand Lal Ji mentions how Aaad Guru referred to Guru Nanak Sahib as MurashDul Alamee- Guru ( God) of both worlds/Guru of all realms/khands. Guru Nanak Sahib Jis reply was

ਗ਼ੁਫਤ ਮਨ ਬੰਦਾ ਓ ਗ਼ੁਲਾਮੇ ਤੁਅਮ॥ ਖਾਕੇ ਅਕਦਾਮੇ ਖਾਸੋ ਆਮੇ ਤੁਅਮਿ॥

I am your person/man and slave. I am the dust of both your special and ordinary devotees. Meaning that he will give Naam to all special ( devtas in diffrent Khands like Karam Khand who havent got Naam yet) and the ordinary ( mortals of this Khand we reside in). After Guru Nanak Sahibs reply; WaaheGuru responded with the same praise again and then mentioned "there is no difference between me and you, go and give Naam to the world".

In first writing GanjNama , Bhai Nand lal writes in pure humility he states how can I praise him ( Guru Nanak Sahib) whom you ( WaaheGuru) have praised. Meaning he cannot do proper praise of Guru Sahib as WaaheGuru has praised him as Guru of both worlds. Meaning who can compete with WaaheGuru Jis praise. Guru Nanak Sahib Ji is the roop of WaaheGuru. WaaheGuru Sahib Jio merged into Guru Nanak Sahib. He has been given praise by WaaheGuru. Its quite clear conversation between Master ( God) and servant ( Baba Nanak) took place. Thus; one can only conclude an union between Guru Nanak Sahib Ji and WaaheGuru Sahib Jeeeo took place.Same conversation took place between Dasmi Paatshah before he was blessed with Gurgaddi by Guru Sahib. This conversation in its original language is easily accessible on the internet. We cannot say Pehli Paatshah was any different then proceeding Guru Sahibs. There is only one Guru and he is Aaad Guru from the beginning of time. He is without mother, and father, and cannot be given a name by us mere mortals. Guru Nanak Sahib Ji was born to both mother and father.

ps- I will continue with this constructive discussion. But If people associate me with heretics or I continue to get rude and aggressive private messages then there is no need to keep the discussion going as it seems like many are being upset by my strict monotheistic views.

Sukhdeep Singh Jeeo,

There is a way to have a constructive discussion and most of your posts do this but a few comments:

1. please listen to the link to the katha i posted if you have not done so already - just as you expect people to read the quotes from bhai sahib's books it would be good if you gave others the same respect
2. the last part of your ps statement was very uncalled for - stating that you are upsetting people b/c of your "monotheistic views" implies that those who disagree with you do not believe in one akal purakh vaheguru - this is really hurtful to read and honestly hurts me personally - in some ways by posting that you are resorting to the same hateful speech those who messaged you privately were engaging in - only you are doing it in a passive aggressive manner in a very backhanded way

bhul chuk muaf karni

i still have utmost respect for you singh just thought we should clear up things before this gets out of hand

Bhai Tarun Singh Ji,

I use to live in Fremont. When Bhai Sahib performed the Katha which you have posted I was at the Gurdwara Sahib that day so there is no reason for me to listen to it again. After the Katha, me another Singh, and a Granthi discussed this pangti for this reason I did not bother to look at the link again. Bhai Sahib lets be honest, with all due respect Giani Pinderpal is knowledgeable, but he comes no where close to Bhai Randhir Singh Ji. No offense this is just my belief. Besides Bhai Gurdas Ji and BHai Nand Lal Ji I dont think any other Gursikh scholar can match Bhai Sahibs knowledge of Gurmat.

By calling myself strict monotheist I did not mean to hurt anyones feelings or belittle anybody. I referred to myself as strict monotheist because I have strict beliefs about one True God. I have chose then Sikh religion because its the only monotheistic religion in the world, but some people are trying to challange this monotheism. My strict beliefs offend Christians, Jews, Muslims, and it seems like some SIkhs. Again, I did not mean to talk down on anyone all Im saying is if people continue with negative comments due to my strict monothestic interpretations then I will no longer continue with the discussion. If they want to dissent do it openly , positively, and provide resources.

Why are we not contemplating the fact that all this could be part of Guru Sahib's choj? After all He is Choji Preetam, isn't He? Bhai Gurdas jee also said "Vah Vah Gobind Singh Aape Gur Chela", didn't he? Now if you start using logic to analyze this statement, it would seem contradictory or not? One could question "How can a single person be both a Teacher and a student?", but that is what Guru Sahib showed and proved.

Quote

ਗੁਰੁ ਪੂਰਾ ਪਾਈਐ ਵਡਭਾਗੀ ॥
The Perfect Guru is found, by great good fortune.

ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਸੇਵਾ ਦੂਖੁ ਨ ਲਾਗੀ ॥
Serving the Guru, pain does not afflict anyone.

ਗੁਰ ਕਾ ਸਬਦੁ ਨ ਮੇਟੈ ਕੋਇ ॥
No one can erase the Word of the Guru's Shabad.

ਗੁਰੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਹਰਿ ਸੋਇ ॥੪॥੭॥੯॥
Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself. ||4||7||9||

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ਜੋਤਿ ਰੂਪਿ ਹਰਿ ਆਪਿ ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਕਹਾਯਉ ॥
The Embodiment of Light, the Lord Himself is called Guru Nanak.

Everything about God cannot be explained by rationale and logic. If this was the case, we would have volumes and volumes of scientific texts describing God in every minute detail possible. It can be argued that this is the height of nimarta of Guru Sahib, that inspite of being no different from Akaal Purakh Vaheguru, He Himself uses terms calling Himself a slave. Those divine words uttered are for us, for us to utter and recite them and call ourselves His slaves. Sahib Sri Guru Nanak Dev Jee also says ਸਭਿ ਅਵਗਣ ਮੈ ਗੁਣੁ ਨਹੀ ਕੋਈ ॥ I am totally without virtue; I have no virtue at all. How would you understand this? Are these words used by Guru Sahib to describe Himself or are these for us to recite and admit how devoid we are of virtues? Please forgive my neutron-sized intellect, but this is all I can understand. This is Guru Sahib's choj. This is the most beautiful nimarta choj of Guru Sahib, that being Vaheguru Himself, He still speaks as though He was a mere mortal, because those words are for us mere mortals.

Guru Sahib and Gurmukh piyaareo, please forgive mistakes of this worm

mehtab singh i totally agree with you, this is just sri guru nanak dev sahib jee's nirmata.
None of the 10 guru's sahibs every claimed that they were akaal purakh themselves due to thier utter humility. By reading Sri Guru Granth Sahib thats all a person can see is how much nirmata guru sahib had. Guru sahib calls himself neech, keet etc to teach us mortals what type nirmata and bentiya we should make to parmatama.

Obviously guru sahib is the emboidiment of nirmata they would never claim to say that they are God themselves.(there might be instances why guru sahib has said that they are god themselves but i cant remember any sakhi right now) this is why we can see shabads like ਮੈ ਹੋ ਪਰਮ ਪੁਰਖ ਕੋ ਦਾਸਾ ॥ ਦੇਖਨਿ ਆਯੋ ਜਗਤ ਤਮਾਸਾ ॥

There is no difference between Sri Guru Nanak Dev Sahib Jee and Akaal Purakh, Akaal Purakh took the form of Guru Nanak Dev Ji and came to this world to the put the world on the right path. Why would akaal purakh send a messenger as Sukhdeep singh is suggesting when all previous messengers ie jesus mahamad and the devi devtay failed to put people on the right path? Maybe you are forgetting the fact that the earth did a benti to akaal purakh saying that i am drowning save me! then akaal purkah was about to send his messengers (devi's etc) but they all raised their hands and said Akaal Purakh jee we cant do it Kaljug is to strong, Please, you have to go, so Akaal Purakh agreed to it and took up the form as Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Akaal Purakh didnt create a messenger and then send him to earth and then became one with him. No, Guru Nanak Dev Ji was the pure from Akaal Purakh, there is no difference between them.

i would suggest reading the Sarooj Parkash or maybe listening to vadey mahapurks katha on the Sri Jap Ji Sahib,(the first few tracks will give you more info)

daas
bhai

bhul chuk maaf
ps.this is just my few cents i really didnt want to disrupt your debate with bijla singh, so just read my post but dont comment on it b/c i honeslty dont have time to debate a "strict monotheistic" becuase i got to much schoolwork, and becuase my monotheistic views oppose your and i dont want to debate them since we will be getting no where.

Thanks for reading

and i hope to see a constructive debate happen!

Its very simple I see no reason to even argue this.


ਗੁਰ ਨਾਨਕ ਦੇਵ ਗੋਵਿੰਦ ਰੂਪ ॥

Mehtab Singh Veer Ji you make some good points but many questions are unanswered. Why would God talk to himself? Im not saying everything can be explained logically, but if someone is asking some serious questions I expect they want a logical answer. Everything I said has not been based on logic. For example, numerous times I have stated Guru Nanak Sahib is God of both worlds, but he is not Aaad Guru. This is a completely irrational and illogical statement. To say Guru Nanak Sahib Ji is aad Guru is to say a conversation or union never took place between him and WaaheGuru. To say a union never took place we are denying history .
In regards to Aapey Guru Chela there is nothing illogical about this. Guru Gobind Singh Ji was both Guru and Servant, the same way Guru Nanak Sahib Ji was Guru and became servant of Guru Angad Dev Ji.

why is this even being discussed?
Bhai Sukhdeep Singh you have already said that the views of the person you debated

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are popular amongst the majority

so why are you bringing it up on this forum especially if you beleive you are the only "strict monotheistic" sikh on this forum? Obviously people, are not going to agree with your veiws and the majority of kathavachaks/panth wouldnt either. I am a stict monothesitc too but my views differ from yours.

ਤੂ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਚਹੁ ਜੁਗੀ ਆਪਿ ਆਪੇ ਪਰਮੇਸਰੁ ॥

translation: ਹੇ ਗੁਰੂ ਰਾਮਦਾਸ! ਤੂੰ ਚਾਰ ਜੁਗਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਹੀ ਥਿਰ ਗੁਰੂ ਹੈਂ, (ਮੇਰੀਆਂ ਨਜ਼ਰਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਤਾਂ) ਤੂੰ ਹੀ ਪਰਮੇਸਰ ਹੈਂ ।

ps. not everything in sikhi can be explained by logic, all conservative sikhs know that.

There was a conference(or such) in India where all the Giani's came to talk about the same thing: What is the relationship between Bani, the 10 Guru Sahiban, and Akaal Purukh. Most of them got up and said Bani is the Hukum sent by Akaal Purukh and the Gurus were the Vazirs/Messengers who brought to us. When it was Sant Jarnail Singhji Bhindranwale's turn he said when you say it like that you are implying that it is like when a Raja sends a Order through his messengers, of course the Raja is the highest, then is the Order(Hukam) and then its the messengers. He said that is not the case. There is no difference between Akaal Purukh, the Gurus, or Bani.
I know you have already stated that there is no difference between Bani and Guru and that your belief in Guru remains steadfast. I am not challenging you just stating my interpretations.
Also doesn't your "strict monotheistic views" repel in believing in two different(or as you like to say merged later on) beings/gods: Aaad Guru and God of two worlds. I think one of the great things about Sikhi is that all paths lead to God. If someone has athah sharda on Guru Granth Sahib ji and does a lot of seva, or someone who keeps their rehit, then there have been sants who wanted Guru Nanak Dev Ji's Darshan, others wanted Darshan of Deshmes Pita ji.
Maybe the phenomenon of God talking to himself can be explained by the phrases Nirgun saroop and Sargun saroop (I'm sure you've heard of them). Guru Granth Sahib Ji is the Sargun saroop of Akaal Purukh and the Nirgun saroop of Akaal Purukh is everywhere. Bhai Randhir Singh's book "Ki Guru Granth Sahib the Pooja boath prasati hai" explains this in more detail....
And the pangti
ਗੁਰੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਨਿਕਟਿ ਬਸੈ ਬਨਵਾਰੀ ॥
what if its one of those places where it means Guru Nanak Says instead of Guru Nanak Is (I guess viakaran would help here) and in that case it would say Guru nanak say that you can reside near God if you ...jap naam(of course this can be proven/disproven by reading the whole shabad)
PS amazing meeting a fellow californian here
PPS maybe this is one of those questions that one should only try to discover with kamaii

Sorry for going a little off-topic but could someone please post the Kalibein Sakhi. I being an ignorant fool, have heard about this for the first time.