Debate with an Isaayee Bibi

The following incident took place about 4 - 5 years ago and I wrote it back then. It is presented again for the interest of Sangat here:

Most days I walk home from the train station. It is about 2 km walk to home and I look forward to it because I do my regular Siri Sukhmani Sahib while walking home.

One day as I was walking a lady unexpectedly patted on my shoulder while we crossed each other and smilingly remarked, “Good man”. I was somewhat confounded but continued doing my paath as I smiled back at her.

The next day again she met me on my way back home and this time she stopped and intimated something that I could not make out as it was hardly audible, but it was something about Bible. She had a dishevelled look and was wearing old albeit clean clothes. Around her neck she had a hand written poster that had the following note:

“This world is polluted. The pollutants are Homosexuality, Incest, Adultery, Fornication, Abuse, Murder, Cheating………..”

She asked me directly, without hesitating, “You look like a good man but are you free from these pollutants?”

I was taken aback by her sudden exclamation but replied calmly, “by the grace of God, I am”.

“But you know that you still must come to Jesus. You must open your heart to Jesus.”

“I think Jesus was a good man and I appreciate his good deeds and his sacrifice.”

“Appreciating is not enough. You must open your heart to him”, she persisted.

“But one heart can do only one love. My heart has already opened up for my Guru and has fallen in love with him. There is no chance in this life of loving anyone else”, I said using the analogy of Ghalib in one of his shayers, that one heart is good for only one love (Dil bhee yaa Rabb, kayee diye hotay).

“You must realise that unless you wash yourself with the blood of Jesus, you cannot be purified”, she said strongly.

Till now I was in no mood to engage in a religious debate with her but she forced me to have expostulations with her. I decided to go ahead and engage in a small debate with her. She was a bit agitated but I was calm, by Guru Sahib’s kirpa.

“I don’t understand how blood can purify anyone or anything”, I replied back.

“You see Jesus gave his blood for us. We must wash ourselves and our souls with his blood. Until we do that, we cannot get purified”.

“Tell me one thing ma’am. If you behold a person washing his clothes with blood, what would you think of him.”

“WHAT”, she cried.

“Okay, let me rephrase. If you witness a person, taking shower with blood, instead of water, what would you consider such person doing? Won’t you find him demonic and fiendish?”

She paused for a moment and seemed perplexed at the direction I was taking. She probably had never looked at this from this direction. A long pause ensued.

I continued, “Blood is blood, whether it is Jesus’ or someone else’s. Blood stains our clothes. Then how can it purify our hearts?”

“I told you before, that Jesus’ blood is different. It is special blood. Your Nanak cannot save you”, said she stuttering.

When she brought my Guru’s name on her tongue in a detestable manner, I got a bit upset but understood that she was a bit frustrated.

“Okay tell me one thing. Are you a spiritual being or a physical being? Are you this body or someone living in this body?”

“Well, we are body, soul and spirit. Actually, I am a spiritual being but I am also body”, she said while trying to figure out what to say.

“Make up your mind ma'am, whether you are a body or someone living in the body”, I told her.

“Well, I don’t know if I am body or soul or spirit. Perhaps I am all three”.

“Just as your body is wearing your clothes but your body is different from your clothes, same way you are wearing this body to be in this world but you are not your body. The fact that you say “My body”, proves that you are separate from you body. Just like your body changes clothes, you change your bodies. Bible talks about hell and heaven. Well, who suffers hell and who enjoys the bliss of heaven if your body is getting decomposed here in this world? This alone proves that you are not your body but an entity living in this body”

A long silence ensued my discourse. She was somewhat dumbfounded.

“I guess you are right. I am an entity living in this body as my entity but I don’t understand why I need my body to be here in this world”, she asked inquisitively.

“In order to stay and function in this enchanted world made of 5 basic elements, a body of 5 elements is required. Our astral body or our spiritual body cannot function in this world and same holds true vice-versa”.

“What vice-versa”, she asked.

“Vice-versa, meaning; our physical body cannot go to the next world because next world is out of this enchanted world made of 5 basic elements. So in the next world we carry our real body and stay in our real-self.”

“I see”, she said.

“Now think about it ma’am; how can blood of Jesus i.e. a physical thing of 5 basic elements clean your spiritual self or soul?”

She stayed quiet for quite bit. In the end she said, “I will have to think about this more deeply. I have never looked at spirituality from the angles you have pointed out today. I regularly go this way and I am sure to bump into you sometime soon. We will continue our discussion. At this time I don't know what to say. Thanks for your time and see you again.”

“See you and bye”.

I resumed my paath from the ashtpadi I had left before debating with her and reached home, thanking Vaheguru for being with me.

Daas,
Kulbir Singh

PS: Isaayee means one who believes in Isa Maseeh i.e. Jesus Christ. Moosaayee is one who believes in Moses i.e a Jew.

Bhai Sahib ji I remember reading this when you posted it long ago. Really amazing and thanks for sharing it again. I had a similar experience in my college van in Dubai in which I used to go back home. This Christian friend from Philippines started praising Jesus Christ and telling my Hindu friend. I couldn't stop myself and jumped into the discussion. He said the same things this bibi said to you, "Jesus is our savior", "Jesus is the only way". My Punjabi instinct within me said "acha? dassaan fer tenu?". But I kept my cool and started talking. I don't clearly remember all the words exchanged, but here is a gist of what happened.

Me: You said Jesus died for our sins
Him: Yes he did.
Me: But if I am not wrong, he did say that no one comes to the Father, but through me, right?
Him: Yes
Me: So he put a condition?
Him (confused): Hmmmm
Me: Now what if I told you about a prophet of God, who sacrificed His life for a community totally different from His own, for a religion totally different, and sometimes opposite of His own, and didn't even expect a mere thanks? Who sacrificed His life without asking for anything in return, never even asked these people to convert to His faith or to worship Him? Who gave up His life just for them to survive and put forth no conditions? What would you say then?
Him (even more confused and now surprised): Has there been a prophet like that?
Me (smiling): Yes!
Him (with his head back against the glass at the rear end of the van, not knowing what to say next, totally confused and having no more words to speak): oh...hmmm...okay...
Me (still smiling): hmmmmm

I didn't tell him I was referring to my Guru, Sahib Sri Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji Maharaj, because then he may take it to mean that I was trying to justify my Guru as greater than Jesus. But first of all, I don't need to justify something which I know, and which is the truth. Secondly, I didn't want to offend his religious sentiments. So I left it at that, and patted his shoulder (thereby returning the patting which the Christian bibi gave to Bhai Kulbir Singh on his shoulder...dekh lao Singhaan de kaarnaame, asi "patting" da mull vi chuka dinne haan).

- Mehtab Singh

Good stuff Kulbir Singh. Sometimes I also run into these Christians in stores and streets trying to convert me. I remember this one time I went to a store and a lady came to me enthusiastically saying "Sir, I have good news for you!"

At first I thought she probably worked in the store and was going to tell me about a sale going on.

She continued "Did you know Jesus can save you!"

I had a confused look on my face.

Then she asked "Do you believe that Jesus is the son of God"

I replied "Yes, because I believe we are all children of God"

I think she was new to doing missionary work so she didn't know how to handle this objection. She probably thought I was a Muslim because of my Dastar and beard. So then she started talking about how Christianity and Jesus are better than Islam and Mohammad. I was amused at her foolishness and respectfully told her I have to go. I think that Jesus freaks like this actually do more damage than good for the image of Christianity.

In Punjab, Christians have done alot of missionary work to convert Sikhs belonging to so called low castes. Mainly it is also our fault for not taking care of our own. I always see our pracharaks making foreign tours which also brings them name and fame and not to mention the big NRI dollars. What is needed at the moment is for these Pracharaks to go to the villages and bring back these lost souls into the Sikh fold. Because of the lack of Prachar, Dera Sacha Souda has had such a huge success in converting Sikhs from Batinda and Mansa area.

mehtab singh, that was a good story. no prophet can match our guru.

I have had similar conversaions and I noticed that Christians go out of their way to study Sikhi and them mock it and give others mis-information about it. For this reason there presence in Punjab is no diffrent then the RSS. I think its a good step to have a religius pluaralistic society, but when another faith talks disrespectfully and gives fales information about another relgion then this is wrong. In Singapore there is a law that if you do Ninda of faith you have to pay a heavy fine. If every country implented this law there would be less coflicts in multi-cultural societies.

I remember a old friend came knocking on my door as a Jeahova Witness. He started preching to me and using quotes that sounded like Gurbani with a Christian twist. For example he said through Jesus the eyes become open. He also had many books published in Punjabi. These people have made much efforts in trying to convert Sikhs.

you all are much more patient with christians than i am. i find their pressure-tactics offensive and annoying. christians have classes in "how to convert others", including education about other religions and how to show that person that christianity is "better". not only are they out to convert non-christians, they also try to convert each other to their sect, as they all feel only their sect are "true" christians.

their work in punjab is especially offensive. i have seen christian websites that say god caused 1984 to happen to make sikhs "ready for conversion" to christianity. what kind of religion is happy to see the genocide of another faith?

my last interaction with christians was when i volunteered for a food bank, and after several weeks of hard work, they asked me to leave because i didn't fit their "christian image" (actually one of the ladies had seen my kirpaan and freaked out- even though most of the ladies there had guns in their purses). obviously that didn't go well.
i actually went to a christian church when i was a teen-ager and ultimately had to leave because of this hypocrisy. the bible is so full of contradictions, it's written by so many authors, in so many different times, it's been translated so many times, there's no way to know what's true and what's not. and not a word of it was written by their prophets. and if you dare ask about this, the priests and pastors will just try to change the subject.

one of the things that amazed me so much about gurbani is that every word of it is truly the word of god, every word was given for us, directly from waheguru. no other religion has such a guide for their lives.

dhan sikhi! dhan sri guru granth sahib ji!