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Gurmat Karam Philosophy

Posted by Vista 
Gurmat Karam Philosophy
July 18, 2010 01:37PM
An Old post On Gurmat Karam Philosophy
(answering somebodys questions to do with suicide & karam)
Bhai Kulbir Singh

Can the other 3 types of Karam please be posted jee for benefit of the Sangat


To answer this question we first need to understand how the system of karma works. There is three kind of karma (karams)

1) The actions that we are currently.
2) The actions we did previously but we have not suffered the consequences of those karma yet.
3) The actions that we did previously and we have been ordained by Vaheguru to suffer those in this life.

Let us take an example of a bank account. Say prior to your birth in this life, you had total of 100 karma outstanding i.e. you haven't suffered consequence of 100 karma yet. At that point assume that Vaheguru ordained that since 100 karma are impossible to payoff in one lifetime, he decrees that you have to reap the fruits of 25 karma out of 100 karma.

The 25 karma that have been written on your forehead for this life cannot be changed and the gurbani pankitis like "Lekh naa matayee hay Sakhi, jo likhiya Kartaar" refer to these kind of karma (called Pralabhadh Karma).

The 75 karma outstanding and that have not been decreed by Vaheguru, are called Sanchit Karma and these karma are the first ones to burn when we do naam abhyaas. Pankitis like "Gur kaa shabad kaatay kot karam", (The shabad of Guru destroys tens of millions karma) pertain to these kind of karma.

The Pralabadh Karma (25 karma) cannot be erased but the effect of those karma can be minimized through baani. There are many saakhis to prove this. One of the saakhis is where Sooli (death by hanging) was changed to just a sool (small cut in foot) because of sangat of Guru Nanak Dev jee.

Based on our Pralabhad Karma (25 karma) we are put in situations and our reaction in those situations make up for our vartamaan karma i.e. the karma or actions that will determine our future.
For example, based on our Pralabadh karma (25 karma) say you become poor and have lot of debt. One is poor because of his or her karma but if because of the situation arising from Pralabadh karma, we start stealing or do other kind of sinful karma, then we will be building bad karma. We don't have any control over Pralabadh karma but we have freewill on how we are going to react in this situation.

People talk about kismat, taqdeer or bhaag. Kismat, taqdeer of bhaag is nothing but our past karma. Our present condition is the direct reflection of our past karma. If one is rich, one is because of good karma in the past but most of the times, rich people end up in hell because where they become rich or king because of good karma, there they also commit a lot of sin when they become king or are at other places of authority. These bad karma done in the intoxication of authority or money leads them to hell. Our Tadbeer (present karma) shape our future just as our past karma shaped our present. In reality all that we have is present. Past is a dream and future is also a dream. The past was enjoyed or suffered as present and the future will be enjoyed or suffered by us as present So really all that exists is this moment of present. Everything else is now a dream.

Coming back to your question of suicide, say you are committing suicide because you have too much debt or you have been humiliated or raped. According to your karma you were supposed to suffer the aftermath of being under debt, leading post-rape traumatic life or leading a post-humiliation period of life. If you beat your karma and commit suicide, you did not complete the cycle of your karma. This way you will have to go through the whole thing over again i.e. you will be raped or humiliated or whatever over again. On top of this you will incur the very bad karma of ending your life i.e. depriving yourself of salvation and insulting the gift of Vaheguru i.e. human body. On top of this you would be mocked on in dargah. They are all going to make fun of you and how you ended your life based on false suffering because everything in the world is fake. Such person will have hard time getting human form of life again.

My advice to you is to do more naam and baani in this time. There is nothing that cannot be resolved by the power of naam and gurbani. If you have grave problem, I suggest you go to next amrit sinchaar program and plead for help. They will do ardaas for you (if they will) and then there is nothing in the world that can stop your chardi kala. I suggest you first speak to chardi kala walay 5 gurmukh elders in your community and then take the next step. One thing is for sure. Suicide is not a solution to anything. You will have to suffer everything all over again if you do so.

Gurmat is great and I am lowly person with lowly intelligence. It is quite possible that my writing up there contains serious misstatements about gurmat. Please let me know.

Daas, Kulbir Singh
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Re: Gurmat Karam Philosophy
July 18, 2010 04:46PM
at the time of amrit sanchar, we're told that our past karam are erased. is there room for this theory in the above explanation?
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in Siri Sukhmani Sahib it says

Jis Kaa Saas Naa Kaaddat Aap ll

Taa Ko Raakhat De Kar Haath ll

Maanas Jatan Karat Boh Bhaant ll

Tis Ke Kartab Birthe Jaat ll

it means we can try to end our lives, but we'll fail because only Vaheguru has the capability to take away life.
some Singh in India explained daas this that even when people do suicide, its written they will die like that.

Kai Kot Jakh Kiner Peesaach ll

Kai Kot Bhoot Pret Sookar Mirgaach ll

some Singh explained daas that jakh, kiner, peesaach, bhoot, pret, sookar and mirgaach are all different things. one of them these terms refers spirits of people of have commited suicide, but daas cant rememeber which term it is.

bhul chuk maaf

WaheGuruJiKaKhalsa ll WaheGuruJiKiFateh ll
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Past karam don't get erased as if they do you will become jeevan mukt/brahmgiani. What I've been told by a brahmgiani was brief as the question posed was different but he touched on this a little. Basically penji if you follow rehit, take amrit and do your bania everyday you won't go back in the charci lakh joon. However you will keep getting a chance of human life again and again until you get rid of all your karam and become pooran with akal. Also there is other info that is beyond the scope of this topic but I love how deep gurbani is especially when discussing 1 tuk can take hours. Dhan dhan sri guru granth sahib maharaj.

Also karam is a very deep topic that can take hours to discuss let alone write. what is described above and in this topic so far is only touching the tip of the iceberg. But daas will try to write more when I get more time.
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Quote

at the time of amrit sanchar, we're told that our past karam are erased. is there room for this theory in the above explanation?

There is a Gurbani Pankiti that goes as follows:

ਲੇਖੁ ਨ ਮਿਟਈ ਹੇ ਸਖੀ ਜੋ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਕਰਤਾਰਿ ॥
(O friend, the Lekh (Karma) written by Kartar Vaheguru, never get erased).

This means that the Karma that are written on our forehead to be exhausted in this lifetime, do not get erased ever. They are called Pralabadh Karam. These Karma get reduced as a result of Naam Bhagti but never get eliminated altogether.

The Karma that get deleted are the Sanchit Karam i.e. the Karma that are sitting in our Karma-Bank and have not yet been ordained by Vaheguru to be suffered by us.

Guru Sahib knows better.

Kulbir Singh
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Re: Gurmat Karam Philosophy
July 18, 2010 07:20PM
Quote

The Karma that get deleted are the Sanchit Karam i.e. the Karma that are sitting in our Karma-Bank and have not yet been ordained by Vaheguru to be suffered by us.

thanks veerjee, this makes sense.

they should explain this more clearly at amrit sanchar though. smiling smiley
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Re: Gurmat Karam Philosophy
July 19, 2010 05:38AM
Man suffers. He seeks to escape suffering, but he does this by following the worldly way of pursuing the path of ego, wealth, power and worldly knowledge. Engrossed in worldly pleasures he feels no interest in the divine light that lies within him. He is bewitched by the beauty of earthly things and gets entangled in them. He does not search for the Truth, the realisation of which could make him eternal, holy and blissful, ending all his sufferings. So absorbing and deluding are the worldly pleasures that they leave man with no time to think of higher aspirations. They detract him from his age long quest to unveil the hidden Reality within. Guru Ji says " Madmen, you remain sleep ! Intoxicated with the pleasure of worldlyness and love for your family, you waste your life in fleeting delights."
The law of Karma is based on cause and effect. We have transmigrated through so many joons that it is unimaginable, as crazy as it may seem maybe we were once a cat or a frog, a bull, a goat but one thing you can be sure of is that we were unable to do Naam Simran. We now find ourselves in the body of a human our one chance to possibly break out of the circle of life and death, and what do we do , we deny it, we fritter it away. A life as precious as a jewel we throw away like a pebble. Without Naam there is nothing. One may live a very pious life full of good deeds and charity, but as harsh as it may sound without Naam you have nothing.
There are three kinds of karma (karams)
1) The actions that we are currently in.
2) The actions we did previously but we have not worked through the consequences of those karma yet.
3) The actions that we did previously and we have been ordained by Waheguru to workthrough/suffer those in this life.
Let us take an example of a bank account. Say prior to your birth in this life, you had a total of 100 karma outstanding i.e. you haven't suffered the consequence of 100 karma yet. At that point assume that Waheguru ordained that since 100 karma are impossible to payoff in one lifetime, he decrees that you have to reap the fruits of 25 of those karma.

The 25 karma that have been written on your forehead for this life cannot be changed, and Gurbani speaks of them :

"Lekh naa matayee hay Sakhi, jo likhiya Kartaar" Whatsoever has been written by the Almighty cannot be erased.

This is referring to these kind of karma, they are called Pralabhadh Karma.

The 75 karma outstanding and that have not been decreed by Vaheguru, are called Sanchit Karma and these karma are the first ones to burn when we do Naam abhyaas. Gurbani says :

"Gur kaa shabad kaatay kot karam", (The shabad of Guru destroys tens of millions karma) pertain to these kind of karma.

The Pralabadh Karma (25 karma) cannot be erased but the effect of these karma can be minimized through Naam/simran. There are many saakhis that refer to this. One of the saakhis is where Sooli (death by hanging) was reduced to just a sool (small cut on the foot) by the simple act of being in the sangat of Guru Nanak Dev Ji. As already stated a Parlabadh karm cannot be erased, but with the correct sangat and Naam Simran is can be radically reduced. Just by being in the presence of a true Mahapursh can reduce these karams.

A sign of a true Mahapursh is that they are Dhayawaan (compassionate) , that they take pity on us unfortunate people and will use their own Naam kumai to take on our karam and burn them, but even then the Karam are not totally erased. However small the karam has been reduced to the Mahapursh will have to suffer, for you. How compassionate is that! For example if they take on the karam of some ones painful knees then they will have to suffer some consequence to their knees also. Alternatively, with the grace of Waheguru, if one does regular Naam Simran, a kasht or punishment will pass you by in a dream. One wakes up terribly shaken by a dreadful dream, be thankful that maybe a bad karam has passed you by in your sleep due to the grace of Waheguru.

Based on our Pralabhad Karma (25 karma) we are put in situations and our reaction in those situations make up for our Vartamaan karma i.e. the karma or actions that will determine our future. For example, based on our Pralabadh karma (25 karma) say you become poor and sink into lot of debt. One is poor because of his or her karma but if because of the situation arising from Pralabadh karma we start stealing and cheating or do other kinds of sinful karma, then we will be building up more bad karma. We don't have any control over Pralabadh karma but we have will power on how we are going to react in this situation. In a similar way, those people who have painful joints and cannot sit in the Gurdwara Darbar are suffering consequences of past deeds, but rather then endure and get the karm over with, they insist that they must sit in Darbar Sahib on chairs. They are now adding to their Vartamaan karma. We look at this situation from the wrong angle, it is not a matter of “Would Guru Ji exclude these unfortunate people from the Darbar” or “Would Guru Nanak Dev Ji not allow these unfortunates to be included in the darbar ? ,but rather one should understand that they have been given this punishment for a reason and the best way to burn off the karm is to endure it and still remember Gods name. Most importantly we should understand that AkalPurkh is "hazzer nazzer" in Darbar Sahib He is the ruler of everything is it fitting that we should sit in His presence on chairs? Are we worthy of this ?
People talk about kismat, taqdeer or bhaag. These are nothing but our past karmas. Our present condition is the direct reflection of our past karma. If one is rich, one is rich because of good karma in the past. But most of the times rich people do not take advantage of their good situation end up in worst off places, Narak for instance. These bad karma they commit in the intoxication of authority or Maya leads them to sorrowful places. Our Tadbeer (present karma) shape our future just as our past karma shape our present.

In reality all that we have is the present. The past is a dream and future is also a dream. So all that exists is this moment of time. Guru Nanak Dev Ji says “We are masters of one breath”, the one that has gone, has gone, the one that is to come, we do not even know if we will breath it , the only one we have any control of is the one we have inhaled, so use it wisely by repeating AkalPurkhs name with it, else it will also go the same way as all the previous ones.
Now we have dealt with physical actions, what about our thoughts ?

In fact you create karms out of your thoughts also. If you think bad things or if your thoughts constantly go towards 'gandh' then this effects your karam. If also effects your Naam simran. Naam is such a suksham vasdhu (very very delicate thing) that the slightest disturbance can effect it. It is a mistake to think that once you have done your Simran that it is locked away for good. It is one thing getting up in the morning with great effort and doing your Naam Simran, it is quite another keeping hold of it. In fact this is even more difficult.

Say you have 100 Naam credits , it is your job to keep them safely. If you are walking down the street and you see someone you dislike and in your mind you curse them, then your Naam credits diminish and some go off to that person. If you pass a person and you have some naughty thoughts, again some of your Naam diminishes and goes off to that person, so you see even when you think you have done so much simran, it is very hard to keep hold of it.

You then have the five chore inside you they also take their share of your Naam. Some of your Naam will have been done with a little Karodh, some with a little Lobh, some with a little Kaam, so they demand their share, and what is left for you?
When you do Naam/paath, if it is done with anger in your mind , then take it that Kroodh has taken all your kumai, if you are doing paath and your are having naughty thoughts, then take it that Kaam has taken whatever simran you have done. On a side issue, when you are making roti or sabzi or any food, the state of your mind has an effect on the way the food is made. You may have noticed sometimes you make tea and for no reason it tastes delicious, you make it the same way later on and it tastes not so good, again this has a lot to do with the state of your mind. Lets take it a step further, when you do sewa, the state of your mind has a direct result in what type of phall (good karma) you get. If you perform sewa with a desire in mind then you will achieve that goal, it may take a while but sewa is always fruitful, but you have not taken any steps closer to Guru Ji, your sewa bore fruit but you have remained stationary. So when doing sewa it needs to be done without a particular goal in mind, infact the only goal in your mind should be Guru Ji’s piyaar.

If you are not “Guru-wallay”, that is, if you have no Guru then when you die and you have to transverse the divide to Dharam Rajas court, if you have no protection (of your Guru) then along the way there are many many lost souls who have no where to go and the only way they survive is by ‘robbing’ Naam off newly deceased people, and if after they have robbed you and you have nothing then you may also end up joining their band. However, if you have the protection of Guru Gobind Singh Ji then you have no fear, then these praites/dhoots cannot touch you.
This is the crux of the matter, we have a constant battle with the Five. Just as there are the five chore we also have the five Sant within us as well – Sat (Truth) , Santokh (contentment) , Dhaya (compassion) , Nimrta (humility) and piyar (love) but because we do so many bad things these five are very weak and the other lot are very strong, which is the reason why our mind is always steered towards bad things in life. Within us we have a platform, on one side there are the good, on the other there are the Bad. As long as the bad five have control of the platform (mind) them it will always veer off to the negative aspects of life. By doing Naam Simran the Good five get stronger and start to take control of the mind. This is when the mind starts to move towards the state of Sehaj.

The Catholic Church is very big on Confession. It is little known that confession is very good for the atma and we as Sikhs do not use this enough. We are all “Bhoolan-haar”, that is we all make mistakes, all of the time, there is no shame in this because as humans that is what we do and Guru Ji knows this. But the knack is how to “bakshah” our mistakes. Every morning when we have completed our Naam and within the ardaas we should quite openly speak out all our mistakes we made the day before.

Again, Akaal Purkh knows everything so even if you do not speak out, He knows. BUT to get the mistakes “bakshahed” or forgiven we must lay them out open and ask for forgiveness. So say “AkaalPurkh Ji yesterday I did many things, I became angry at person X, I did nindhia of person Y, I had bad thoughts about person Z please forgive all my mistakes, even the ones I am not aware of.” The amazing thing is, AkaalPurkh is all loving, all forgiving, no matter how many mistakes we make, as long as we are genuine about asking forgiveness then, those mistakes are cleared of our Karm slate. This way we accumulate less karam, because we are getting them forgiven as we go along. Very much like a confessional, but without a go-between, you speak directly to your father.

from:[www.info-sikh.com]
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Re: Gurmat Karam Philosophy
July 19, 2010 01:35PM
another question...

what if one is born in a non-sikh family, or a non-practicing sikh family. what if we don't have knowledge that the actions we commit are against gurmat, or will build up against us.
what if we then are called to sikhi by guru sahib.

does this mean we have an entire past lifetime of karam to work through, even if we did not know we were wrong?

let's say an atheist cuts their kes once a month for 30 years. or maybe they eat meat 3x a day for 30 years. that's more than 30 thousand meals of meat! how much time would it take to work off all of that karam? surely more than one lifetime... maybe 10, or 100! how can we beg guru sahib to forgive some of this? otherwise, we converts are likely to become worms in the next joon! eye popping smiley

there must be some way to remedy karams committed unknowingly, else why would guru sahib call people from non-sikh backgrounds to him?

also, i have heard that sometimes gursikhs are afflicted with pain and disease in this life as a way to help burn off past karams in THIS lifetime, so as not to hold them back for another joon. is this logical?
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Re: Gurmat Karam Philosophy
March 07, 2013 06:02AM
Quote

Again, Akaal Purkh knows everything so even if you do not speak out, He knows. BUT to get the mistakes “bakshahed” or forgiven we must lay them out open and ask for forgiveness. So say “AkaalPurkh Ji yesterday I did many things, I became angry at person X, I did nindhia of person Y, I had bad thoughts about person Z please forgive all my mistakes, even the ones I am not aware of.” The amazing thing is, AkaalPurkh is all loving, all forgiving, no matter how many mistakes we make, as long as we are genuine about asking forgiveness then, those mistakes are cleared of our Karm slate. This way we accumulate less karam, because we are getting them forgiven as we go along. Very much like a confessional, but without a go-between, you speak directly to your father.

This makes perfect sense. If I do this everytime the mind wanders it will act as a reminder of my neech actions and with Guru Jis mehar they will lessen with time.
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Brothers, if the Prarabdha have to be suffered no matter what and if even by reciting Naam they are not rooted out completely and are minimized then what meaning should be attribute to such gurbani lines:

ਗੁਰ ਕੇ ਚਰਨ ਰਿਦੈ ਪਰਵੇਸਾ ॥ ਰੋਗ ਸੋਗ ਸਭਿ ਦੂਖ ਬਿਨਾਸੇ ਉਤਰੇ ਸਗਲ ਕਲੇਸਾ ॥੧॥ (SGGS, 531)
ਰੋਗ ਸੋਗ ਦੁਖ ਜਰਾ ਮਰਾ ਹਰਿ ਜਨਹਿ ਨਹੀ ਨਿਕਟਾਨੀ ॥ (SGGS, 711)
ਦੂਖ ਰੋਗ ਸੋਗ ਸਭਿ ਬਿਨਸੇ ਗੁਰ ਪੂਰੇ ਮਿਲਿ ਪਾਪ ਤਜਾਇਣ (SGGS, 744)
ਰੋਗ ਸੋਗ ਦੂਖ ਤਿਸੁ ਨਾਹੀ ॥ ਸਾਧਸੰਗਿ ਹਰਿ ਕੀਰਤਨੁ ਗਾਹੀ ॥ (SGGS, 1085)

Gurbani says clearly all the afflictions are under Hari's control, so logically Hari can remove them when He wishes:

ਜਰਾ ਮਰਾ ਤਾਪੁ ਸਿਰਤਿ ਸਾਪੁ ਸਭੁ ਹਰਿ ਕੈ ਵਸਿ ਹੈ ਕੋਈ ਲਾਗਿ ਨ ਸਕੈ ਬਿਨੁ ਹਰਿ ਕਾ ਲਾਇਆ ॥ (SGGS, 168)

In Anand Sahib it is said:

ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਪਾਇਆ ਉਤਰੇ ਸਗਲ ਵਿਸੂਰੇ ॥ ਦੂਖ ਰੋਗ ਸੰਤਾਪ ਉਤਰੇ ਸੁਣੀ ਸਚੀ ਬਾਣੀ ॥

Brothers, nowhere has it been indicated that these afflictions and sufferings will be minimised, it has been said they shall be finished completely. This is what I understand from the words: ਸਭਿ ਦੂਖ ਬਿਨਾਸੇ, ਸਭਿ ਬਿਨਸੇ

Also:
ਲਲਾ ਲਾਵਉ ਅਉਖਧ ਜਾਹੂ ॥ ਦੂਖ ਦਰਦ ਤਿਹ ਮਿਟਹਿ ਖਿਨਾਹੂ ॥ ਨਾਮ ਅਉਖਧੁ ਜਿਹ ਰਿਦੈ ਹਿਤਾਵੈ ॥ ਤਾਹਿ ਰੋਗੁ ਸੁਪਨੈ ਨਹੀ ਆਵੈ ॥ (SGGS, 259)

I am trying to build up my faith by attributing such meaning to these lines that if one goes deep into Naam, and if it fructifies then all dukhs shall be annihilated by His Grace.

Please share your thoughts.
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Re: Gurmat Karam Philosophy
March 08, 2013 05:33PM
eyesacademic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Brothers, if the Prarabdha have to be suffered no
> matter what and if even by reciting Naam they are
> not rooted out completely and are minimized then
> what meaning should be attribute to such gurbani
> lines:
>
> ਗੁਰ ਕੇ ਚਰਨ ਰਿਦੈ
> ਪਰਵੇਸਾ ॥ ਰੋਗ ਸੋਗ
> ਸਭਿ ਦੂਖ ਬਿਨਾਸੇ
> ਉਤਰੇ ਸਗਲ ਕਲੇਸਾ ॥੧॥
> (SGGS, 531)
> ਰੋਗ ਸੋਗ ਦੁਖ ਜਰਾ ਮਰਾ
> ਹਰਿ ਜਨਹਿ ਨਹੀ
> ਨਿਕਟਾਨੀ ॥ (SGGS, 711)
> ਦੂਖ ਰੋਗ ਸੋਗ ਸਭਿ
> ਬਿਨਸੇ ਗੁਰ ਪੂਰੇ
> ਮਿਲਿ ਪਾਪ ਤਜਾਇਣ (SGGS,
> 744)
> ਰੋਗ ਸੋਗ ਦੂਖ ਤਿਸੁ
> ਨਾਹੀ ॥ ਸਾਧਸੰਗਿ ਹਰਿ
> ਕੀਰਤਨੁ ਗਾਹੀ ॥ (SGGS, 1085)
>
> Gurbani says clearly all the afflictions are under
> Hari's control, so logically Hari can remove them
> when He wishes:
>
> ਜਰਾ ਮਰਾ ਤਾਪੁ ਸਿਰਤਿ
> ਸਾਪੁ ਸਭੁ ਹਰਿ ਕੈ ਵਸਿ
> ਹੈ ਕੋਈ ਲਾਗਿ ਨ ਸਕੈ
> ਬਿਨੁ ਹਰਿ ਕਾ ਲਾਇਆ ॥
> (SGGS, 168)
>
> In Anand Sahib it is said:
>
> ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ
> ਪਾਇਆ ਉਤਰੇ ਸਗਲ
> ਵਿਸੂਰੇ ॥ ਦੂਖ ਰੋਗ
> ਸੰਤਾਪ ਉਤਰੇ ਸੁਣੀ
> ਸਚੀ ਬਾਣੀ ॥
>
> Brothers, nowhere has it been indicated that these
> afflictions and sufferings will be minimised, it
> has been said they shall be finished completely.
> This is what I understand from the words:
> ਸਭਿ ਦੂਖ ਬਿਨਾਸੇ, ਸਭਿ
> ਬਿਨਸੇ
>
> Also:
> ਲਲਾ ਲਾਵਉ ਅਉਖਧ ਜਾਹੂ
> ॥ ਦੂਖ ਦਰਦ ਤਿਹ ਮਿਟਹਿ
> ਖਿਨਾਹੂ ॥ ਨਾਮ ਅਉਖਧੁ
> ਜਿਹ ਰਿਦੈ ਹਿਤਾਵੈ ॥
> ਤਾਹਿ ਰੋਗੁ ਸੁਪਨੈ
> ਨਹੀ ਆਵੈ ॥ (SGGS, 259)
>
> I am trying to build up my faith by attributing
> such meaning to these lines that if one goes deep
> into Naam, and if it fructifies then all dukhs
> shall be annihilated by His Grace.
>
> Please share your thoughts.


Very informative and a great write up I also agree - in the same book "Gur Ka Shabad kaateee khoot karm" - naam/Gurbani has the power and the only power to cut the karms - but on the other hand there is no way of knowing when "nadar" of kartar will be upon an individual - therefore conclusion is to keep at Gurban/naam and top of all and hardest of all - live and apply Gurbani in life.
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It is a matter of how you look at these panktis. I personally do not agree with your literal viewpoint. For example:

ਦੂਖ ਰੋਗ ਸੋਗ ਸਭਿ ਬਿਨਸੇ ਗੁਰ ਪੂਰੇ ਮਿਲਿ ਪਾਪ ਤਜਾਇਣ (SGGS, 744)

It means that the moment one meets Satguru, their diseases and bad karmas, sins etc. all vanish away. This is not the correct interpretation in my viewpoint because physical diseases and suffering will continue to affect the body as long as one is physical alive. With your approach, no one has to keep rehat or abide by Guru’s injunctions after meeting Satguru. If you say one must keep rehat and do naam abhiyaas then I ask for what reason since all sins and bad karma were eliminated at the point of meeting Satguru. If you say only past ones get eliminated and one must keep rehat to ensure no future sins and bad karma get incurred then the word ਸਭਿ will refute your argument since it includes past, present and future sins. Bhai Randhir Singh, Sant Gurbachan Singh, Sant Harnam Singh and many other gursikhs had physical illness at some point of their life after taking Amrit. Shouldn’t this have been eliminated at the time of taking Amrit? Since it did not happen, it means that the literal interpretation is not correct. In my opinion, meeting (ਮਿਲਿ) Satguru can be in two contexts. First one can be at the point of taking Amrit and obtaining Naam upon which the devotee rises above base desires and vices and reaches the state of turiya avastha where physical pains and suffering are not viewed as such but as the Will of Waheguru. For such a Sikh, all these hold no value since he is living above the world. Or it could also mean that all sins get eliminated due to the fact that the devotee learns the lesson of accepting bhana and not being emotionally attached to the mortal body. Since he views this body as a temporary vessel and treats it like a cloth, any wear and tear to it holds no importance to him for he is as wealthy as ever with Naam.

Second one can be a spiritual union after long devotion to Gurmat way of life. In this case, the end result will be the same. The person will be spiritually exalted and mentally attached to Waheguru 24/7 in which case any suffering to his body is simply bhana of Waheguru and for the sake of welfare of humanity.

In my opinion, all future karma (good and bad) can be completely eliminated. All the karma written on the forehead for the present life can be eliminated (only if Waheguru wishes), or reduced as is the standard set by Waheguru. Even if all the bad karma gets eliminated, the so-called physical suffering or diseases cannot be eliminated so long the body exists regardless of one’s avastha. We call it suffering whereas gursikhs consider it bhana. This is my very limited and narrow understanding and much of it is beyond me. Guru Rakha
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I think meeting of Guru should be taken to be as meeting at spiritual level, when Guru's Charan Kamal occupy one's heart. This happens rarely and only with Guru's Grace.

Gurmukhs and physical disease: I think Naam can eliminate any physical suffering completely BUT usually Gurmukhs do not care for physical comforts and they let the karma take its toll on the body while their surat stays engrossed in divine bliss. If they develop a desire for eliminating a disease it will SURELY happen because Gurbani says:

ਜੋ ਮਾਗਹਿ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਅਪੁਨੇ ਤੇ ਸੋਈ ਸੋਈ ਦੇਵੈ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਦਾਸੁ ਮੁਖ ਤੇ ਜੋ ਬੋਲੈ ਈਹਾ ਊਹਾ ਸਚੁ ਹੋਵੈ ॥

But usually they do not desire anything other than Naam.

Aging and Death
Can Naam eliminate death? I do not know. But if I were to hazard a guess I would say that Naam should be able to stop body aging but I would also think that it would be possible only in Gurmukhs of most high avastha. As long as they would want to keep the body stable in a state they should be able to and when they have no further use of it they would let the body go ahead on its course. A high avastha Gurmukh would not usually have a desire for this but I'd say if they want it, it shall happen.
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Quote

Gurmukhs and physical disease: I think Naam can eliminate any physical suffering completely BUT usually Gurmukhs do not care for physical comforts and they let the karma take its toll on the body while their surat stays engrossed in divine bliss.

There is a difference between Naam eliminating diseases on its own and having the power to eliminate them. In first case, true Sikhs would never get sick which does not happen. In second case, Sikhs being imbued with Naam accept bhana and do not use spiritual powers to eliminate any diseases. So your interpretation that Naam will completely eliminate everything is not correct. While I agree that it can but not without the sought desire of a devotee which would be contrary to Naam Marg of accepting bhana.

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Can Naam eliminate death? I do not know. But if I were to hazard a guess I would say that Naam should be able to stop body aging but I would also think that it would be possible only in Gurmukhs of most high avastha. As long as they would want to keep the body stable in a state they should be able to and when they have no further use of it they would let the body go ahead on its course. A high avastha Gurmukh would not usually have a desire for this but I'd say if they want it, it shall happen.

This again is the same case. Naam is the creative power of Vaheguru and according to its operative rules, a body must age. Stopping body from aging means Naam working against its own rules. How can then Sikhs submit to the Will of Vaheguru when Naam itself is not in bhana? Any yogi with high spiritual merits can prolong his life and Sikhs can have full control over when they wish to leave their body but Naam on its own will not stop the process of body aging. One must ask for such a boon which again is not according to Gurmat.
Your argument has changed from Naam completely eliminating pralabad karma/diseases to Naam having the power to eliminate. Both are very different. Guru Rakha
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> Your argument has changed from Naam completely
> eliminating pralabad karma/diseases to Naam having
> the power to eliminate. Both are very different.
> Guru Rakha

You are chasing words and definitions. I have no intention of doing it. What I said was based on Gurbani quotations. Sarab ka aukhad Naam. You may choose to interpret that it will happen only with desire. That does not make a difference for me. Naam does it in both cases. Desire or no desire it will be Naam which shall do it. This is the world of faith, not of definitions. You are treating this subject as a document of terms and conditions.

The logic and what is perceived in 'normal' physical phenomenal world does not exactly apply to the spirit world. Your logic has not convinced me yet. I have heard and read very reliable stories of people getting cured due to power of Naam and Gurbani. Thats enough for me.
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The point being that your argument did not remain consistent and you failed to prove your point. No one here disagreed that Naam had no power of cure but you failed to explain why true Gursikhs get sick. Those who get cured have such a desire. Also disease and paralabdh karma are not the same.
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Bijla Singh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The point being that your argument did not remain
> consistent and you failed to prove your point.

First off, I made a post not to PROVE a point but to SHARE my view. I did not wish you or others to convert to my view. Its your understanding whether you choose to agree. Forums are not necessarily for proving and winning arguments.

> No one here disagreed that Naam had no power of cure
> but you failed to explain why true Gursikhs get
> sick.

Why Gursikhs get sick is a matter which I do not claim to understand completely. I have a small idea that such disease might occur for the benefits of other beings including birds, dogs, buffaloes and cows etc. Or till the Naam has not manifested completely in the body. But then again I do not CLAIM this to be true nor do I wish to PROVE this viewpoint to be true.

> disease and paralabdh karma are not the same.

I did not say that. If there has been an implication of this, it has been inadvertant. Prarabdha karma can manifest in pleasant, unpleasant, comfortable, uncomfortable and neutral experiences.

You have argued that I have claimed that Naam will eliminate all disease no matter what. I do not think I said that in my OP. I said that Gurbani does not attach a percentage clause when it says Naam shall eliminate suffering.

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Brothers, if the Prarabdha have to be suffered no matter what and if even by reciting Naam they are not rooted out completely and are minimized then what meaning should be attribute to such gurbani lines:

ਗੁਰ ਕੇ ਚਰਨ ਰਿਦੈ ਪਰਵੇਸਾ ॥ ਰੋਗ ਸੋਗ ਸਭਿ ਦੂਖ ਬਿਨਾਸੇ ਉਤਰੇ ਸਗਲ ਕਲੇਸਾ ॥੧॥ (SGGS, 531)
ਰੋਗ ਸੋਗ ਦੁਖ ਜਰਾ ਮਰਾ ਹਰਿ ਜਨਹਿ ਨਹੀ ਨਿਕਟਾਨੀ ॥ (SGGS, 711)
ਦੂਖ ਰੋਗ ਸੋਗ ਸਭਿ ਬਿਨਸੇ ਗੁਰ ਪੂਰੇ ਮਿਲਿ ਪਾਪ ਤਜਾਇਣ (SGGS, 744)
ਰੋਗ ਸੋਗ ਦੂਖ ਤਿਸੁ ਨਾਹੀ ॥ ਸਾਧਸੰਗਿ ਹਰਿ ਕੀਰਤਨੁ ਗਾਹੀ ॥ (SGGS, 1085)

Over here I am sharing my view that Prarabdha do not have to be suffered no matter what we do. In other words I have said that prarabdha can be eliminated. I did not say they shall be eliminated in each and every case. I have also pointed out that nowhere in these lines (or elsewhere in Gurbani) has there been said that Naam reduces suffering only partially. Wherever such a topic has been dealt Gurbani always has said suffering is rooted out completely. And I have shown you the lines to prove it.

Now, if one brings in empirical evidence to prove that Gurbani reduces suffering only partially then the onus of re-interpreting the lines lies on the person who does this.

So for example if we take the following lines:

ਰੋਗ ਸੋਗ ਸਭਿ ਦੂਖ ਬਿਨਾਸੇ ਉਤਰੇ ਸਗਲ ਕਲੇਸਾ ॥੧॥ (SGGS, 531)

ਰੋਗ ਸੋਗ ਦੁਖ ਜਰਾ ਮਰਾ ਹਰਿ ਜਨਹਿ ਨਹੀ ਨਿਕਟਾਨੀ ॥ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਹੋਇ ਰਹੇ ਲਿਵ ਏਕੈ ਨਾਨਕ ਹਰਿ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਨੀ ॥੨॥੧॥

How do you interpret these lines? Do you mean to say that reference to Rog is just metaphorical and that physical suffering shall continue as it does? As you rightly pointed out earlier that Gursikhs do fall ill. So I ask you, then how shall we interpret these lines? Shall we say these are just metaphorical and that body shall suffer but mind shall not?

Before answering, I request you to adopt an attitude of friendly discussion and sharing of views. When discussion turns into an argument ego kicks in which defeats the purpose of discussing spiritual issues.
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Re: Gurmat Karam Philosophy
March 18, 2013 01:21AM
clear as mud -- eh --
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ns44 Wrote:
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> clear as mud -- eh --

:-D yes.

In any case brothers I think its not our position (as regular/run-of-the-mill humans) to understand gurbani completely down to each word. I think there shall always be grey areas and we shall always be given to interpret certain things according to our mental leanings and pre-conceptions.

A while ago I believed that the ideas of afterlife (Dharamraj's Dargah and company) were metaphorical or maybe not necessarily as exact as depicted in Gurbani. I had read Sachkhand Darshan almost a decade ago and I have always believed in afterlife things since childhood. Yet I did not 'allow' myself to fully embrace the literal idea depicted in Gurbani. I used to believe in continuation of consciousness after death and re-birth according to the quality of the consciousness and its past karma but I used to leave out Dharamraj as being not necessary. But this belief used to clash with what I saw all around me in my personal life. There has to be a phase or a gap in which certain experiences should occur, not just in 84 lac jooni. Only then certain things made sense. So right now I believe in the 'literal' depiction of Dharamraj as Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh explains in 'ਅਣਡਿਠੀ ਦੁਨੀਆ'.

So is the case with Karma (prarabdha and sanchit and all). I am not sure. And there is a lot of confusion.
On one hand Gurbani does say:

ਪ੍ਰਥਮੇ ਮਿਟਿਆ ਤਨ ਕਾ ਦੂਖ ॥ ਮਨ ਸਗਲ ਕਉ ਹੋਆ ਸੂਖੁ ॥

Clearly owing to Naam the body is the first to receive benefit. Now I think to myself the word is ਮਿਟਿਆ and not ਘਟਿਆ. It means the physical dukh is rooted out completely not partially, even though its a result of Prarabdha karma. On the other hand it is an undeniable truth that Gursikhs do fall ill. So the question is: how do we reconcile these two things. This is the question.
One can say that whenever any disease manifests it does not affect the surat, the consciousness, it may stay, but the being does not 'suffer' as such. In fact this has to be the case.
But on the other hand there are cases in which disease has been physically removed from the body. As an example one can read in 'Rangle Sajjan'.
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Bhai Sahib, I think you have failed to understand Bijla Singh main point. In simple terms, he is saying that NAAM has the power to eliminate all dukh, or to do anything for that matter, increase age, increase height, superior skills etc. but Gurmukhs do not choose to use NAAM for these purposes because they have accepted Akal Purakhs Bhana.

Gurmukhs with lots of Naam Kamyiee have the ability to do anything, but choose to stay in Akal Purakhs hukam. I remember a Sakhi, when Singhs when to Sant Jernail Singh during the agitation in 1984, and begged Sant Ji to do something with his shaktee, or possibily send Shaheed Singhs to help. Anytime Singhs would ask, Sant Ji would simply say it is not in hukam to do anything yet. If these spiritual Gurmukhs willed, than the whole Indian army would have been destroyed with the blink of an eye, but this Bir Raasi Gurmukhs choose to fight without using their Shaktian. Such is the true love of Gurmukhs, who do not question their masters hukam.
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ਦੂਖ ਰੋਗ ਸੋਗ ਸਭਿ ਬਿਨਸੇ ਗੁਰ ਪੂਰੇ ਮਿਲਿ ਪਾਪ ਤਜਾਇਣ (SGGS, 744)

It means that the moment one meets Satguru, their diseases and bad karmas, sins etc. all vanish away. This is not the correct interpretation in my viewpoint because physical diseases and suffering will continue to affect the body as long as one is physical alive. With your approach, no one has to keep rehat or abide by Guru’s injunctions after meeting Satguru. If you say one must keep rehat and do naam abhiyaas then I ask for what reason since all sins and bad karma were eliminated at the point of meeting Satguru. If you say only past ones get eliminated and one must keep rehat to ensure no future sins and bad karma get incurred then the word ਸਭਿ will refute your argument since it includes past, present and future sins

The Pankiti does not say anywhere that as soon as one met the Satguru, the diseases and sorrows were eliminated right at that point. I think what this Pankiti means is that when, after meeting the Perfect Guru, one shed all sins, then sorrows and diseases got eliminated. This process of shedding all sins and thus eliminating diseases and sorrows may take different amount of time, depending on the individuals.

An example of Gursikh or many Gursikhs cannot be invoked to prove a Gurbani point. If Gurbani says one thing and if that standard or reward is not met by famous Gursikhs, then this does not mean that the truth mentioned in Gurbani cannot be true.

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In my opinion, all future karma (good and bad) can be completely eliminated. All the karma written on the forehead for the present life can be eliminated (only if Waheguru wishes), or reduced as is the standard set by Waheguru. Even if all the bad karma gets eliminated, the so-called physical suffering or diseases cannot be eliminated so long the body exists regardless of one’s avastha. We call it suffering whereas gursikhs consider it bhana. This is my very limited and narrow understanding and much of it is beyond me. Guru Rakha

Gurbani says it very clearly that all diseases and sorrows can be eliminated while living in this human body. It does not matter whether any Gursikh has met this standard or not but the eternal truth of Gurbani cannot be discredited or disapproved based on this. Gurbani says that one who gets Naam Aukhad (medicine) in one's hirda, cannot get disease even in a dream:

ਪਉੜੀ ॥
ਲਲਾ ਲਾਵਉ ਅਉਖਧ ਜਾਹੂ ॥
ਦੂਖ ਦਰਦ ਤਿਹ ਮਿਟਹਿ ਖਿਨਾਹੂ ॥
ਨਾਮ ਅਉਖਧੁ ਜਿਹ ਰਿਦੈ ਹਿਤਾਵੈ ॥
ਤਾਹਿ ਰੋਗੁ ਸੁਪਨੈ ਨਹੀ ਆਵੈ ॥
ਹਰਿ ਅਉਖਧੁ ਸਭ ਘਟ ਹੈ ਭਾਈ ॥
ਗੁਰ ਪੂਰੇ ਬਿਨੁ ਬਿਧਿ ਨ ਬਨਾਈ ॥
ਗੁਰਿ ਪੂਰੈ ਸੰਜਮੁ ਕਰਿ ਦੀਆ ॥
ਨਾਨਕ ਤਉ ਫਿਰਿ ਦੂਖ ਨ ਥੀਆ ॥45॥


Yes, this is true that sorrows come to Gurmukhs even for non-Karmic reasons e.g. to teach lessons to the world, to set an example for the world and a whole variety of mystical and Gurmat reasons. To the worldly eye, Bhai Dyala jee suffered immensely since he was boiled alive but this suffering was not a result of a Karmic debt. It was to bring glory to Sikh Shaheedi tradition, to show love of Gurmukhs for their Guru and Vaheguru knows what other mystical reasons.

Sometimes, diseases and sorrows also come to Gurmukhs as a way of testing by Guru Sahib. When the Gursikhs stay submitted to Naam and Gurbani, they pass this test and then are rewarded with great spiritual rewards.

This is a very complex subject and is hard for us mortal beings to fathom. Our duty is to keep reliance on Gurmat Naam for all our worldly and spiritual problems, sorrows and obstacles.

Guru Sahib knows better.

Kulbir Singh
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Thank you Kulbir Singh ji. Well said.
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