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Veganism

Posted by Arrow 
Veganism
April 21, 2018 08:40AM
Introduction

You support oppression or you do not.

What is Veganism? Veganism is not just a simple diet like Vegetarianism, it is a lifestyle and movement. To become a Vegan means that you are against the exploitation, oppression, enslavement, torture and murder of innocent, sentient beings.

A vegan lives by the basis of morality. We understand that the ACT of unnecessary oppression, enslavement, torture and murder is immoral. Oppression does not apply only to a specific type of our choosing, but then ignore it for another type. If you are against oppression, you have to be against the act of it which applies to all whether it be based on religion, race, gender, specie etc.

The fact that we have to label ourselves with a name (vegan) that tells others that we are against the act of oppression, enslavement, torture and murder of a specie just shows how many more immoral people live in this world because this should be expected of everyone.

Moral Obligation

Moral agency is not unique to the Human race. Animals possess empathy and have their own moral conduct, studies have already proven this. But for a human that has higher intelligence and more power, we have the obligation to use our moral agency to a higher standard.

It is a moral obligation to not cause harm to another sentient being (Human and Non-Human Animals). It is a basic moral principle, the simplest act of good. To live a life guided by this basic moral principle means that you understand the weight of causing suffering and death to another being. However, by paying for Animals to be tortured and murdered for your enjoyment goes against your moral obligation to innocent beings around you. It prevents you from understanding the horrendous act of causing torture and forcibly taking another life of a sentient being. Humans are brought up in a society that teaches that is justified to exploit, cause unnecessary suffering and murder of beings that are weaker, dumber, innocent and vulnerable. The more unintelligent they are the more you feel you can justify and have the right to exploit, torture and murder for your benefit.

Slavery Comparison

The humans that live now are no different from slave-owners. The same mentality still exists. Slaves were not given the same equal consideration as White people were given. They were more vulnerable, could not fight back as they did not have the weapons that Americans, French and the British people possessed so it was justified to exploit, enslave, torture and murder them. People justified slavery by arguing that they are:

 Non-humans
 Inferior
 Unintelligent
 Living Tools
 Natural Slaves (born to be enslaved)

People describe animals in the same way. People shamelessly compare animals to rocks, inanimate object which is the same as comparing them to plants. Plants that are not sentient, do not possess a brain, pain receptors and a central nervous system. People are still the same as those 200 years ago, they exploit and oppress others for personal gain, for profit, for their own pleasure.

Vegetarians come up with the same excuses that meat eaters do. Every excuse a vegetarian whether Gursikh or Non-Gursikh a meat eater has the same weak argument, fallacy that only proves their inconsistency and immorality.

Both Vegetarians and Meat eaters view animals as objects, their property and machines. However, studies have already proven that they possess consciousness, a brain, cognitive ability, can feel different emotions such as fear, jealousy, distress, joy, empathy, guilt, enthusiasm etc, they feel physical pain and have a preference to live. No different from us. For example, a pig and fish can problem solve faster than a child of 3-5 years old. Cows build complex relationships and show excitement when they solve a problem and become worrisome about what they do not understand. Chickens have similar attributes to apes such as linguistic ability, spatial memory, social reasoning, vocal learning, personality etc. I can go on and on about different animals and their intelligence. But this should not be the reason we choose not to harm them. Their sentience and the fact that they suffer like us should be the reason we do not exploit, enslave them and cause them harm.

You do not need to love all humans on the planet to understand that it is immoral to exploit, oppress, torture and murder them. In the same way you do not need to care or love animals to understand this.

Dairy Industry

In order for a female cow to produce milk like a human woman she has to give birth. First the farmer forcibly ejaculates the bull to get the semen and they then forcibly impregnate the female cow by thrusting his/her arm into her anus to loosen the area and injects her with bull semen (this is what you call Beastility), then when she is pregnant her calf is taken away from her as she bellows out for days for her baby. That calf is killed for the Veal Industry. This only happens because the Dairy Industry exists for us to steal the milk that was meant for the calf. Not us. The female calves face the same fate as their mother, constantly being impregnated, milked, until they get infected udders, become ill, weak and collapse, then they are sent off to be murdered for their flesh.

If you continue to consume dairy, you should educate yourself on how 98% of dairy is produced (whether free range or organic which is a marketing ploy).

[www.youtube.com]

Animal Use and the Environment

The eco-system has been damaged by animal agriculture. Watch [www.cowspiracy.com] and/or watch cowspiracy on Netflix. Large rainforests the size of football pitches are destroyed for livestock. Over 50% of plants are fed to these livestock and the rest goes to us. So, more rainforests are destroyed to feed these livestock because the demand for them grows due to human population, so more are bred into existence, hence more land is needed. The largest cause for greenhouse gases is animal agriculture - methane caused by the over 70 billion animals. Furthermore, the waste of these animals goes into the oceans creating massive dead zones. 50 to 85% of oxygen that humans need come from ocean plants called phytoplankton and rest from land - trees. But these are being destroyed. Therefore we are gradually removing our sources of oxygen. Scientists have already advised people to become Vegan or we won’t have a world to live in the future.

Diseases caused by Animals and Their Excretions

The cholesterol found in animals and their excretions causes heart disease, type 2 diabetes, dementia, colon cancer and more. A study on Eggs found by Harvard university causes mortality risk by the number of eggs consumed, just like smoking does. Chicken contains arsenic. Fish contains mercury. All animal protein also contains a hormone called IGF1 (more in Dairy) which grows and spreads cancer such as breast, prostate etc. Milk does not give strong bones it does the opposite – you lose calcium because the acid in animal protein makes its way into the bloodstream, in order to neutralise the acid the body removes calcium from our bones and sends it into our blood. This is why studies have found that countries with high intake of dairy have the most osteoporosis, arthritis and bone fractures.

Why would Vaheguru give people who consume animal flesh/excretions, like dairy, diseases, cause the destruction of our planet if it’s meant to be consumed? It’s a circle of suffering, you consume these animal/excretions made from suffering so you have to endure the suffering.

Poverty

Animal agriculture is the leading cause of poverty around the world. We are taking billions of plants, destroying rainforests, and taking gallons of water from developing countries to feed billions of animals in the Meat, Dairy and Egg Industry to be consumed by people from developed countries.

Some Arguments a Sikh will make:

What the Sikhs did during Guru Sahib’s time: In order for Sikhs during that time to survive they had little choice but to consume milk. Vegetarianism was the moral baseline then because it caused the least amount of harm. Now, the moral baseline has changed which is Veganism because you can survive and be healthier on a plant-based diet.

Animals are going through Karma: Karma itself is not a valid argument for a Sikh to make otherwise you justified the rape and murder of Sikhs during 1984 and before/after.

Degh: Currently the ingredient in Degh is blood, not sure how this is a holy ingredient. The cows suffer and are killed for you to have their milk in Degh. But even if they lived an amazing life and treated well their milk is for their calf, not for you. Giraffes do not drink cow’s milk, in the same way humans have not been created to drink another specie’s milk. Futhermore, why are we still drinking baby milk in adulthood? Nowadays, there are many alternatives to Cow Milk such as Almond, Cashew, Coconut, Soya, Hazelnut, Oat etc Milks. Why wouldn’t Guru Sahib accept a pure ingredient? For those Sikhs who think “I will only consume Degh” that has milk (firstly you are not a Vegan), you are allowing the Gurdwara to continue to pay for Cows to be exploited, tortured and murdered. This is only happening to animals because we are paying for it to happen. Stop the demand and the supply will lessen for each time a person goes vegan, less animals will be bred into existence for the sole purpose of suffering.

God created Animals for us: God created these animals for us to exploit, oppress, torture and murder is not a valid argument as well otherwise he would not have given them a central nervous system and pain receptors. They also possess legs, have a brain so feel the emotion of fear and stress which are all needed to avoid pain and suffering which humans also use. The problem is you see Animals as commodities, objects, property and machines when they sentient beings. Why would Vaheguru create these animals that are conscious beings like us? There is no nice way of treating an animal if you are exploiting the animal. Even the best scenario is evil.

Vegan Propaganda: The Government is funded by the Meat, Dairy and Egg Industry. They all help the boost of its consumption through advertisements and via Doctors. When do advertisements show that Veganism is the best lifestyle? Never. They only show meat and happy cows whereas Vegans have real and current footages of how animals are actually treated, how is this the propaganda? Meat eaters use this argument as well. It’s a joke. Who is in it for the Money and Pleasure? The Meat, Dairy, Egg, Wool Industry, Meat eaters or Vegans??

Dairy is tasty: I did not even want to include this argument because it is the worst argument, especially for a Sikh. It’s shameful. Firstly, the enjoyment of anything that has a victim does not morally justify it, otherwise you are justifying rape and murder. Secondly, the reason you enjoy it because it is like a drug. It contains Casomorphins which has an opioid effect. It keeps making you want to come back to it, because it is for a baby calf to keep coming back to his/her mother to drink milk.

Japji Sahib says Compassion is the father of Religion. When our actions have a victim that we are intentionally exploiting, oppressing, causing suffering and murder then how can we say we are practicing Sikhi compassionately?

Vaheguru in Gurbani is described to have the quality of compassion, mercy and helper of the helpless. A Sikh is meant to practice the guns of Vaheguru so why are we limiting our compassion when in this day and age it is possible to be more compassionate with our daily life choices and not be the oppressor of the helpless?

Gurbani rejects oppressors. Vaheguru is called the destroyer of oppressors so do you not fit in this category of an oppressor?

In this modern era, with the choice of other alternatives, if a Sikh continues to consume Dairy/Egg/Animals while being fully aware of the exploitation, suffering and murder of animals, is no Sikh.
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Re: Veganism
April 23, 2018 09:34AM
Vegan Steven, Veganism is not a movement against oppression its a movement started by animal right activist. The same type of people who love animals but could care less how they treat and talk to humans. Do you honestly think the vegetables on your table did not come at the cost of exploiting human and in most cases children?

Veganism is more akin to Jainism not Sikhi. Introducing Veganism or should I say the agenda of animal activist into Sikhi would change Maryada started by Guru Sahib. Firstly, there would be no degh. Even in Amrit Sanchar a person gets initiated into Sikhi faith after sharing deg with their kin. Besides taking Degh out of the Gurdwara you would be also removing tabla which is made out of animal skin and chaur sahib which is made out of animals tail. No Degh, tabla, no chaur sahib? What would Sikhi look like if we allow these animal activist to high jack our Gurdwara Sahib? Guru Sahib was compassionate towards animals but he did not share the Vegan philosophy. He had no problems consuming dairy nor did he have a problem in using animals to plough the fields in the scorching heat. He even hunted and killed wild animals. Nor did Guru Sahib have problems with destroying eco systems in order to build Gurdwara Sahibs and cities.

If your so concerned for animal rights then you shouldnt be living in a city or town because thousands of species and eco- systems have been destroyed through the development houses and civilization. If you want to live in the wild and eat grass from the ground like your animal friends then by all means do so it wont leave to Mukhti. Adopting the ways of Jains or animal activist wont lead to mukhti. Gursikhs are perfectly content living domesticated life and consuming vegetarian food which has essential elements for body development.

No offense but your solution is not practical. A Gursikh follows Gurmat they dont go around like sheep jumping on the animal rights bandwagon. Gursikhs are compassionate they should consume food according to Gurmat. This kind of extreme obsession of animal rights does not exit in Sikh philosophy or history. Gursikhs dont waste their breath in arguing about these issues. Read the sakhi about Guru Sahib going to Kurukshetra.
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Re: Veganism
April 23, 2018 10:52AM
Out of 84 lakh joons, all have a soul transforming across to reach human form. Mistreating any one of them evokes sin, which adds to the pile of your bad karma.

What you are saying is true that getting milk that way evokes sin. But degh has to be prepared with clarified butter as established by Guru Sahib. You can never ensure that any single ingredient you use to prepare Langar/Degh is devoid of bad karma, even if its vegan ingredient.

But it is the way of preparing Langar/Degh that gets rid of that Karma and makes the Degh/Langar holy/Pavittar. How? Answer is the proper Maryada/Doctrine/Principle established by Guroo Sahib to prepare both. SARBLOH being part of it which brings that divinity and acceptance by Guru Sahib. When the Chardhi Kala Khalsa who is full bibek/rehatwaan/naam rasiya....prepares Degh or Langar in Sarbloh, it becomes divine to consume, it propagates naam to world......

Having said that, Meat/Egg are exceptions, they can never be pure to eat even if cooked in Sarbloh, why? Guru Sahib mentioned that its Bujjer Kurehit, Cardinal Sin to consume them. This is another Doctrine/Principle/Maryaada established by Guru Sahib. No one can question it.

We as Khalsa never question hukams of Guru Sahib. Time can never change them, how can it? Those are timeless hukams, out of time, true forever.
If Gurubani says Clarified Butter/Ghee is pavittar/pure, it can never change with time. Even if its prepared from cow's milk with calf devoid of milk. Digest it.

How can Akal Purakh and the Gurbaani and the Hukams of Guru Sahib change with time? Think about it. If Guru Nanak Sahib established Clarified Butter/Ghee as one pure ingredient for Degh, no one can question its purity, at least a Khalsa will never.

Even vegans cannot prevent exploitation of any being. Because they cannot stop wearing/eating industrial products. Industries work for profit, they exploit workers in poor countries, working on minimum wages or sometimes workers of poor countries dont even get wages. How do you pay for that karma which exists in vegan food? How do you know the Almond milk you claim to be pure has not been produced exploiting a human or a child, you talk about cow.

You worry about only one Bad Karma, but you have so many other bad Karmas, how will you get rid of them? What will you do. Will you buy your own farm? And then ensure that each ingredient you get from your farm is without any exploitation. Which means you will not use any industrial product, not even tractor. Make a plough out of iron you dig out of earth without using any industrial tool. Impossible, wastage of time, when will you get time to read Gurbani? Jap naam? Go in Satsangat?

Do you ensure that you avoid fish oils, sea products in hair shampoo? Body soap? Tooth paste? How can you trust industry in any of its product?

This veganism is another industry being enstablished, as a label on food, like the existing "non-GMO food" industry. Industry is in hands of people who have no Dharma in their life, they are not Khalsa,, how can their products be pure?

Be compassionate, do not give "intentional" pain to any being, you will not be able to do Bhagti that way. On the same side, dont worry about unintentional pain you give while walking on grass, consuming milk etc, as you got to eat within Rehit of Sikhi to sustain and do Bhagti. Keep Sarbloh rehit, to help get rid of negativity in food ingredients. Do not go near meat/eggs, just because its hukam of Guroo Sahib, dont try to apply logic of your feeble mind that why cant they be made pure in Sarbloh.

Opressors, who kill animals, misuse them will be destroyed. Khalsa will remain safe, if they are within rehit. But non Khalsa have to bear the bad Karma in food. So being within rehit of Akal Purakh, means one will be saved by Akal Purakh itself. You gotta believe in Akal Purakh's principles, rehit, and not question it, become a Khalsa and get saved.

Guru Sahib , i.e Akal Purakh itself ,is beyond our thinking. Lets not try to be wise and improvise on their hukams, and just ensure that we follow their hukams as it is.

We dont believe in modern era, modern means anything that changes, anything that changes with time is not true. Khalsa Rehit is timeless truth. Once established by Guru Sahib, will never change. There is only one way of going to Sachkhand as established by Guru Sahib, and that is through naam and Khalsa Rehit.

Waheguru G Ka Khalsa
Waheguru G Ki Fateh
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Re: Veganism
April 23, 2018 10:30PM
Sometime it's very disheartening to see the upcoming generation trying to understand Sikhi from the western perspective. Rather than spending time on Internet & learning from Google about the Human/Animal Ethics and Morality, they should be doing Sangat of Gurmukhs and learn from them the Khalsa Rehit.

The University academia does non-stop research and fills the library walls with books mostly written according to their minuscule brain. All their talks on being Vegan, Non-GMO, compassion, etc... is nothing but 'sianap' of their 'tuch buddhi'.

The deep insight into Khalsa Rehit can only be gained from Abhyasi Gurmukhs. The tradition which is passed on from generation to generation in other words 'seene-baseene'.

To be brief on the original thread, the reason that Sikhs abstain from eating meat/egg/fish etc... is not due to the concept of 'Jeev Hatya' or it causes lot of pain to animal or earn bad karma etc etc... If that is the case then it is true for Plants too. Then why do we kill plants and eat them?

On the other hand, being allowed to eat plants doesn't mean that Sikhs will start consuming Marijuana, Weeds, Hookah, Wine, Beer, Alcohol etc... All these items are vegetarian and made of leaves, grapes, wheat etc.

The bottom line is that, Manukhi Dehi is the only form in which Jeev-Aatma can get Naam and do Bhagti and eventually merge into Akaal Purakh. This Manukhi Dehi needs a fuel and Bibeki Vegetarian diet according to Khalsa Rehit is what serves it purpose and provide assistance in Naam Rass Bhagti.

I am sorry, but the moral science of being Vegan and Bibeki Khalsa Rehit has no connection and should not be confused with. These are two separate domain with different purpose. When individuals starts living according to Khalsa Rehit, then all the issues that Veganism is trying to address gets automatically taken care and no special efforts are needed.
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Re: Veganism
April 26, 2018 06:57PM
Be there no doubt that veganism is a modern day cult. And leave everything else aside, how dare you come on a sikh forum and call our degh as being in blood. Degh was prepared by Guru Nanak Dev ji himself and has his stamp of not only approval but also inherent part of sikh practices.

How dare you?

If this was not a religious and spiritual forum I would have used some other words for you.
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Re: Veganism
April 28, 2018 08:30AM
The replies here were expected and predictable. Most are the same, if not similar arguments that meat-eaters make. It is not only selfish but has zero logic or knowledge.

For those of you who do not understand what Veganism is, I will repeat:

- Firstly Veganism is a movement against oppression as every Vegan agrees that a person who causes direct harm (e.g. murder and rape) to a human is not a Vegan.
- Veganism means not contributing to unnecessary harm and suffering to animals.
- Veganism believes in causing the least amount of harm as harm will always be caused in some way by our existence.
- Veganism is not against surviving. In our current state of living, we do not need any animal products to survive.
- Veganism is not consuming animals and their excretions, not wearing their skin, not going to zoos, not using products that are animal tested and have animal ingredients when we have other alternatives.
- Veganism is not against fighting/killing an animal if it will cause a danger to you or someone else.
- Vegans do not believe animals are equal to humans, only that they endure the same suffering.
- Vegans believe that the root of causing humans suffering is causing suffering to animals. In fact there is a study done on empathy. It found a certain part of the brain of a Vegan was more active when seeing suffering of humans and animals than a non-vegan.

1. Children involved in growing vegetables:
It is funny when people bring up these arguments because they do not actually care about making change. We can be a Vegan and help humans, who said being a vegan means only caring for animals?

Eating vegetables is a matter of survival and it is indirect. We can easily avoid child labor products that are possible to avoid. That being said, they are in poverty so they have very little options for choosing other work. Animal agriculture has already been mentioned that affects poverty.

In your argument you are saying because there is suffering caused by everything, we should continue to cause the MAXIMUM amount of harm, rather than decreasing it.

Has being a non-vegan mean human problems have ever been dealt with. People have been and are still selfish as ever. If every human went vegan, all problems would easily be dealt with.

2. Eco- systems have been destroyed through the development houses and civilization
We built houses for civilization to survive and it is necessary. It would not be realistic and practical otherwise. Animal Agriculture is the leading cause of deforestation in developing countries. Read the point made in my first post.

3. Animals are voiceless:
Animals do not possess our intelligence and our language. So humans decide their fate, make decisions if they feel pain or if it matters, how they should be treated etc. We are taking advantage of animals because of this and treating them to meet humans ends, not their own. Vaheguru created animals to feel pain because they need to be protected by us, not exploited for unnecessary reason. These animals we are exploiting are more innocent than a human. To their eyes, a human is a devil. Khalsa is meant to represent (almost) perfection, however you have proven to show you are no different.

4. Plants feelings:
Plants are intelligent and living beings but they do not feel pain like us or animals. They only react, not respond. They react to stimuli. Put a stone in the mouth of a plant called fly catcher it will close onto it due to stimuli reaction. Do the same for an animal and it will respond by spitting it out. THEY ARE NOT CONSCIOUS, NOT SENTIENT AND THEY DO NOT FEEL PAIN. There is no cognitive ability.

If you look at it in terms of its creation or evolution, you’ll see they do not have basic features to escape from danger. For example, animals have legs to escape pain and brain to feel fear and distress. Vaheguru has given no means for a plant to escape as they are rooted into the ground.

Everything is living such as clouds, water, rocks, mountains etc as they all have Vaheguru’s light but they are not sentient like humans and non-human animals. Even subconsciously you know this, if you are driving a car and you have a choice to either drive over a field of grass or an animal, would you drive over the animal because plants feel pain?

5. Parvaan/karma:
Parvaan is only for yourself, but not the victim that suffers. Is this how sikhi works? Kill a sentient being, then do ardas, it becomes parvan. Nihungs use this same argument when chopping off a baby goat’s head. Sikhi also according to your mat means be less compassionate, show no care for others, make no better change for others but yourself.

What exactly is parvaan? Over 70 billion animals bred into existence, only 15 months old the (baby) cow is forcibly impregnated by thrusting their hands into the private areas, has their male calf taken away and killed so that we can have the milk for ourselves, the mother cow collapses and becomes ill in 2 years and is then sold for meat is parvaan?

Using the parvaan argument is actually doing more harm to sikhi than you realise.

Paying for dairy is DIRECTLY and INTENTIONALLY causing harm because you do not need milk to survive and is thus forcibly making the cow live a life of suffering for no reason!

6. Degh/Tabla/Chour Sahib
For Tabla and Chour Sahib, you can use other materials easily. For degh, you can use a substitute and make that into ghee and then make it parvaan. If you cannot make this parvaan, then there is no way you can make a product of suffering parvaan.

7. Guru Sahib Hunted:
Firstly you do not know Guru Sahib and you do not know why Guru Sahib hunted. Otherwise, it would have been a common rehit for every sikh to hunt.

8. Alcohol/weed/etc:
These are intoxicants and poison to the mind and body. Your mind is meant to be engaged in naam, that is impossible if you are intoxicated. It is also harms others, destroys families. A sikh should always be in an alert state to help others, being intoxicated means you are unable to help others whenever.

9. Veganism is a modern day cult/western lifestyle:
Over 70 billion animals are bred into existence for the sole purpose to be tortured and killed. In 2014 and now, millions of animals less were killed thanks to the growing amount of vegans.

What would you have liked to see, no one become vegan because it is a terrible evil western lifestyle that is reducing the amount of animals bred into existence to be tortured or murdered. By your logic, causing maximum amount of harm is good and causing the least is evil.

If everyone lived by your standards and only consumed dairy (vegetarian lifestyle), what would you do with all the animals after they are unable to produce milk (as they collapse and become ill after being hooked onto milk machines in only 2 years). Over billions exist, what would you do with them? Kill them? Killing them is against sikhi and immoral. Your scenario is unrealistic and unsustainable as there will be a growing amount of population as well as a growing demand for dairy. Veganism is sustainable as we are against breeding animals to existence. As more people become vegans, less animals will be bred into existence until there are only a few left.

10. Veganism is evil, science facts are evil, it was not practiced by Guru Sahib:
If western lifestyle is evil then why are you raising your future generations in a western country and then become fearful if they pick up a “western lifestyle”? You should not even be using mobile phones, computers, cars etc if everything science/western is evil and a bad lifestyle. Instead you should be living in a similar environment Guru Sahib lived in and making everything yourself.

Bhai Nand Lal Ji - Codes of Conduct
dhoharaa
Dohira

khalak khaalik kee jaann kay khalak dhukhaavai naah
Regard the creation as that of the Creator, one should not exploit the creation.

khalak dhukhai na(n)dh laal jee khaalik kopai taah| (49)
If the creation is hurt, Lal Jee, the Creator is enraged.(49)
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Re: Veganism
April 28, 2018 01:24PM
Mmmm. I'm not vegan but I'm always open to listening and it has to be said the original post was well written and deserves attention. Although I don't agree with everything you say...Well done for listing some of the arguments with such impeccable English.
Mass production of all food types will inevitably lead to these type of questions and dilemmas. Maybe that's why Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh never entertained the idea of going abroad.
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Re: Veganism
April 30, 2018 08:50AM
The only thing that I agree with veganism is not consuming honey. Honey is the end result of the nectar which bees extract from flowers, which then goes in their stomach, then gets passed by mouth to mouth with other bees. The end result is the honey. If you think about it, it is actually quite disgusting and gross.
Maple syrup is a much better and cleaner alternative.
As far as milk goes, humans have been drinking milk for centuries, and this has been accepted in Sikhi. Degh cannot be prepared without gheo.
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Re: Veganism
May 01, 2018 02:31AM
I can understand someone making a choice to not eat dairy for any reason. But this is laughable. It has been said before on this forum that even other foods like lentils and beans and other crops like grains come from places that treat the humans that work the farms with cruelty. This should be fixed, and if someone feels that not consuming something will help, there's nothing wrong with some deciding to refrain from eating that. But Guru's maryada and what the Gurus taught us will not change.
I find it weird that you take the abuse from the dairy industry so seriously, but you aren't giving up all that wheat and lentils.

Your claim that milk causes osteoporosis is false. That is based on the belief that acids are bad for you and alkaline foods are good for you. This is just false pseudoscience (This website uses scientific and verified evidence reviewed by medical professionals to dispel the myth of alkalinity of foods having any positive effect on health). The claim that milk takes calcium from your bones is also false pseudoscience (This is the same website, proving that milk is good for health.).

Hormones like insulin-like growth factor 1 (IGF-1) are way more complicated than just saying that it causes cancer. In fact, it would be more accurate to say that it doesn't cause cancer. You might know that benzene, a product of burning or browning of food is also considered carcinogenic. All roti that we eat has burnt parts on it. If you're so worried about IGF-1 causing cancer, please eat your roti undercooked too to avoid benzene. Having too little IGF-1 can also be bad. Most of the claims about IGF-1 being a serious cause of cancer are just sensationalized media (Causation, correlation, milk, and cancer). Other things are actually known to cause cancer.

Your point about casomorphin is also just sensationalized news (casomorphin is not as addictive as a drug).

That link you posted about cruelty, is not completely reliable either. Animal cruelty in countries like Canada is not tolerated like that video would have you believe. Majority of farmers do not torture their cows that way. Seriously, go meet a dairy farmer in Canada if you are so worried. (The perspective of a Canadian dairy farmer). Everything is explained in that link. Cows that get infected udders are given time to heal. Antibiotics are only given when the infection doesn't heal on its own. Infected milk or milk with antibiotics in it is not sold. Cows are not milked until they collapse. Any collapsed cows are not allowed by law to be killed for meat either. The pus is a lie too. There is absolutely no pus in milk. People are confusing somatic cells, which are always present in all milk, with pus (No pus in milk). Also, Canadian milk is always free of artificial growth hormones.

Sikhs did not have "no choice but to consume dairy". Guru Gobind Singh Jee and Gursikhs have always been drinking milk, even if there was an abundance of other food available. Guru Sahib calls milk Amrit.
ਲੰਗਰਿ ਦਉਲਤਿ ਵੰਡੀਐ ਰਸੁ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਖੀਰਿ ਘਿਆਲੀ ॥ Ang 967
Do you know better than Guru Sahib now? Being against milk for legitimate reasons makes sense. But to say that milk is inherently bad is against Gurmat. There's nothing wrong with giving up dairy with the exception for degh. That is a very good way to do it, as it does not compromise Sikhi. What does it matter if it counts as being vegan or not? The label is not necessary.
A lot of what you said is just a bunch of blatant lies. Some of it is true and someone can be vegan to the extent that it doesn't interfere with their Sikhi. But what you are suggesting is that everyone goes to extremes that violate Sikhi's teachings while following lies pushed by groups with an ulterior agenda. It's possible to try to fix these kinds of problems without going against Sikhi. Give that a try before you start making outlandish claims.
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Re: Veganism
May 02, 2018 01:51PM
The replies here were expected and predictable. Most are the same, if not similar arguments that meat-eaters make. It is not only selfish but has zero logic or knowledge.

For those of you who do not understand what Veganism is, I will repeat:

- Firstly Veganism is a movement against oppression as every Vegan agrees that a person who causes direct harm (e.g. murder and rape) to a human is not a Vegan.
- Veganism means not contributing to unnecessary harm and suffering to animals.
- Veganism believes in causing the least amount of harm as harm will always be caused in some way by our existence.
- Veganism is not against surviving. In our current state of living, we do not need any animal products to survive.
- Veganism is not consuming animals and their excretions, not wearing their skin, not going to zoos, not using products that are animal tested and have animal ingredients when we have other alternatives.
- Veganism is not against fighting/killing an animal if it will cause a danger to you or someone else.
- Vegans do not believe animals are equal to humans, only that they endure the same suffering.
- Vegans believe that the root of causing humans suffering is causing suffering to animals. In fact there is a study done on empathy. It found a certain part of the brain of a Vegan was more active when seeing suffering of humans and animals than a non-vegan.

1. Children involved in growing vegetables:
It is funny when people bring up these arguments because they do not actually care about making change. We can be a Vegan and help humans, who said being a vegan means only caring for animals?

Eating vegetables is a matter of survival and it is indirect. We can easily avoid child labor products that are possible to avoid. That being said, they are in poverty so they have very little options for choosing other work. Animal agriculture has already been mentioned that affects poverty.

In your argument you are saying because there is suffering caused by everything, we should continue to cause the MAXIMUM amount of harm, rather than decreasing it.

Has being a non-vegan mean human problems have ever been dealt with. People have been and are still selfish as ever. If every human went vegan, all problems would easily be dealt with.

2. Eco- systems have been destroyed through the development houses and civilization
We built houses for civilization to survive and it is necessary. It would not be realistic and practical otherwise. Animal Agriculture is the leading cause of deforestation in developing countries. Read the point made in my first post.

3. Animals are voiceless:
Animals do not possess our intelligence and our language. So humans decide their fate, make decisions if they feel pain or if it matters, how they should be treated etc. We are taking advantage of animals because of this and treating them to meet humans ends, not their own. Vaheguru created animals to feel pain because they need to be protected by us, not exploited for unnecessary reason. These animals we are exploiting are more innocent than a human. To their eyes, a human is a devil. Khalsa is meant to represent (almost) perfection, however you have proven to show you are no different.

4. Plants feelings:
Plants are intelligent and living beings but they do not feel pain like us or animals. They only react, not respond. They react to stimuli. Put a stone in the mouth of a plant called fly catcher it will close onto it due to stimuli reaction. Do the same for an animal and it will respond by spitting it out. THEY ARE NOT CONSCIOUS, NOT SENTIENT AND THEY DO NOT FEEL PAIN. There is no cognitive ability.

If you look at it in terms of its creation or evolution, you’ll see they do not have basic features to escape from danger. For example, animals have legs to escape pain and brain to feel fear and distress. Vaheguru has given no means for a plant to escape as they are rooted into the ground.

Everything is living such as clouds, water, rocks, mountains etc as they all have Vaheguru’s light but they are not sentient like humans and non-human animals. Even subconsciously you know this, if you are driving a car and you have a choice to either drive over a field of grass or an animal, would you drive over the animal because plants feel pain?

5. Parvaan/karma:
Parvaan is only for yourself, but not the victim that suffers. Is this how sikhi works? Kill a sentient being, then do ardas, it becomes parvan. Nihungs use this same argument when chopping off a baby goat’s head. Sikhi also according to your mat means be less compassionate, show no care for others, make no better change for others but yourself.

What exactly is parvaan? Over 70 billion animals bred into existence, only 15 months old the (baby) cow is forcibly impregnated by thrusting their hands into the private areas, has their male calf taken away and killed so that we can have the milk for ourselves, the mother cow collapses and becomes ill in 2 years and is then sold for meat is parvaan?

Using the parvaan argument is actually doing more harm to sikhi than you realise.

Paying for dairy is DIRECTLY and INTENTIONALLY causing harm because you do not need milk to survive and is thus forcibly making the cow live a life of suffering for no reason!

6. Degh/Tabla/Chour Sahib
For Tabla and Chour Sahib, you can use other materials easily. For degh, you can use a substitute and make that into ghee and then make it parvaan. If you cannot make this parvaan, then there is no way you can make a product of suffering parvaan.

7. Guru Sahib Hunted:
Firstly you do not know Guru Sahib and you do not know why Guru Sahib hunted. Otherwise, it would have been a common rehit for every sikh to hunt.

8. Alcohol/weed/etc:
These are intoxicants and poison to the mind and body. Your mind is meant to be engaged in naam, that is impossible if you are intoxicated. It is also harms others, destroys families. A sikh should always be in an alert state to help others, being intoxicated means you are unable to help others whenever.

9. Veganism is a modern day cult/western lifestyle:
Over 70 billion animals are bred into existence for the sole purpose to be tortured and killed. In 2014 and now, millions of animals less were killed thanks to the growing amount of vegans.

What would you have liked to see, no one become vegan because it is a terrible evil western lifestyle that is reducing the amount of animals bred into existence to be tortured or murdered. By your logic, causing maximum amount of harm is good and causing the least is evil.

If everyone lived by your standards and only consumed dairy (vegetarian lifestyle), what would you do with all the animals after they are unable to produce milk (as they collapse and become ill after being hooked onto milk machines in only 2 years). Over billions exist, what would you do with them? Kill them? Killing them is against sikhi and immoral. Your scenario is unrealistic and unsustainable as there will be a growing amount of population as well as a growing demand for dairy. Veganism is sustainable as we are against breeding animals to existence. As more people become vegans, less animals will be bred into existence until there are only a few left.

10. Veganism is evil, science facts are evil, it was not practiced by Guru Sahib:
If western lifestyle is evil then why are you raising your future generations in a western country and then become fearful if they pick up a “western lifestyle”? You should not even be using mobile phones, computers, cars etc if everything science/western is evil and a bad lifestyle. Instead you should be living in a similar environment Guru Sahib lived in and making everything yourself.

Bhai Nand Lal Ji - Codes of Conduct
dhoharaa
Dohira

khalak khaalik kee jaann kay khalak dhukhaavai naah
Regard the creation as that of the Creator, one should not exploit the creation.

khalak dhukhai na(n)dh laal jee khaalik kopai taah| (49)
If the creation is hurt, Lal Jee, the Creator is enraged.(49)
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Re: Veganism
May 06, 2018 10:55AM
To me, it appeals. The veganism. I mean. Spirituality/religion follows compassion. (As I understand from Japu Ji pankiti, Dhol Dharam Daya Ka Poot). It seems a good sign for humanity. There should be no torture/harm to the dairy animals, for the milk we consume.

But at the same time I have some reservations about that i.e. the veganism. I dont think, you have already responded to these. I am sorry if you have done that.

1. Compassion is positive attribute. But without the "life of spirit", it seems useless. It must be followed by GURU-WARD-ism or GOD-WARD-ism.

2. Being so passionate to be compassionate to animals; seems a sickness. "MAS MAS KAR MOORAKH JHAGREY-----------------"

3. If we are rearing dairy animals with all care for their needs and pains ( Guru Nanak Dev Ji used to graze dairy animals; with all love and caring), then what is wrong in 'that' milk. If we are 'brotherly' with the calf; what is harm in sharing his/her mother's food; as a 'Sibling'. Is it not the justified way of living in harmony with nature. Is not living supportive to animals better than living away from animals.


4. Any PANKITI from Gurbani which supports that level of VEGANISM which prohibits milk and honey.

5. What is wrong in using skin from a dead animal for TABLA etc.

For your kind consideration, please.
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Re: Veganism
May 06, 2018 03:29PM
We know few jyot vigasi sikhs of recent times, and of old times who consume dairy, who played tabla, who kept full Khalsa Rehit.

They never tried for MINIMUM harm, everyone has its own definition of minimum, vegans create their own. But the minimum of Khalsa is already defined. Those who know sikhi well, follow that, and have attained Waheguru.

Why should Khalsa care what a Vegan says. What do you want to achieve with your own defined MINIMUM harm? How do you know that you have sorted your karma following veganism? Maybe you still achieve same amount of compassion as a non-vegan.

Dont give scientific logics, science doesnt even know what Karma is. Dont mix Khalsa Dharm with science and its definitions.

Materialism is needed for survival, but it cannot help anywhere in attaining Waheguru. Buying car, wearing shoes etc, is just survival in this world, but it doesnt sort one's next world. But science doesnt even know that there is next world. So dont try to mix science and Dharma, makes no sense.

Dharma is spiritual logic, defined by Guru to reach Waheguru. Science is materialistic logic to create more material, that may help for comfort or survival, but you cannot attain waheguru with that.

Anyways, good luck with your veganism smiling smiley
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Re: Veganism
May 07, 2018 10:28AM
Arrow Ji,

Your condescending attitude is not helping you persuade anyone about your Vegan religion. Since you think all replies are “ expected and predictable “ then why waste your time posting? You have even gone to the point to suggest why would Guru Sahib a grown adult use dairy or why would Mata Khivi Ji serve dairy to grown adults. Many are going to view these thoughts of being very disrespectful. Also, comparing injustice of a cow to the injustices of our mothers, daughters, and sisters who were raped during 1984 was completely unnecessary. Instead of trying to convince people why using dairy is wrong explain to them why its against Sikhi. So far you haven’t done that.

Your argument that cows suffer when we drink milk is a weak argument. Rodents suffer when we eat vegetables or fruit. Have you ever worked on a farm? Do you have any idea how many rodents get killed? Some species have even become extinct due to farms. Why is the abuse of a cow more important then abuse of mice? Do you know how many illegal migrants get mistreated and underpaid? Should we stop supporting farmers and not eat fruit and vegetables. The abuses of cows are not as much as you are exaggerating. Owners know that if your too abusive the cow wont produce milk their cows are their investment so they try to take care of the cow. Try driving by a dairy farm on a hot summer day and see how the cows are sitting under fans. If its too hot and they get overheated they wont produce any milk and will be useless to their owners. Sure there are workers and some owners who over exploit their stock and animal right advocates like to focus on this minority but this type of abuse is not happening on a wide scale.

Truth of the matter there is suffering in all food we get. Suffering is part of this world. Only Naam can stop suffering. If people are making other animals or rodents suffer its their karma not ours. We are not directly doing such actions. Indirect actions or actions done without intent are not going to affect us. Karma starts in the mind not the body it started in the mind before there even was a body.
If dairy was so bad then why did Guru Sahib use it as an ingredient to make degh. Why did Guru Amar Das Ji make yogurt one of the main dishes. Things like gheo and dehee make the body strong. Guru Sahib even recommend putting yogurt in our kesh because it makes the kesh strong. Clarified butter on the other hand is like medicine it has so many magical properties it would take me to much time to write about them. The simple fact is dairy makes the digestive system strong. Yogurt has good bacteria and gheo is a good lubricant. These are necessary for good naam abhyiaas. Too much without exercise can lead to a disease but you are suggesting to completely remove it from our diet. A weak digestive system leads to weak naam abhyiaas. One of the reasons we don’t eat meat because it leads to a weak digestive system, a weak mind and weak naam abhyiaas.

You are not going to get mukhti by just eating grass if this was the case all herbivores would get mukhti. As Gursikhs we should be compassionate, and eat food that’s going to help our naam abhyiaas. Focus less on animals and more on your own mind. Don’t get caught up with Animal Rights propaganda at the cost of insulting Gursikhs and Guru Sahib. Rest Guru Sahib knows.
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Re: Veganism
May 10, 2018 04:39PM
Pehla apni aatma di suffering ta khatam kr lao jio. Fir bhave duniya de har jeev di khatam kr lena ji..

Bhul chuk di khima bakshni.. _/\_
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Re: Veganism
May 12, 2018 11:54AM
To take the abuse from dairy animals seriously is laughable (because other humans suffer in the world)

To stop consuming animal products is the only real change you can make in the world. You vote with your money. Just by not adding dairy into your meals three times a day, you are already making a huge impact because the supply will go down as the demand does. It has already been addressed that someone cannot just simply cut out plants from their diet as it is necessary for us for our survival and health.

You can help people from undeveloped countries by signing petitions or doing seva in those countries but it is a continuous loop as there will always be poverty. By stop breeding billions of animals, all the crops we feed to live stock can be fed to poorer countries. I can go further but then I will just be repeating what has already been explained in my earlier posts.

You may think it is a joke but the extent and longevity of suffering that livestock animals has been through is incomparable to any human. Just think about for how long and the amount of animals have suffered and killed for us to experience a fleeting moment of taste.

There is no animal cruelty in my country/Dairy is scary is a myth (https://www.dairyfarmers.ca/farmers-voice/farming/milk-myths-debunked-dairy-is-scary-or-not)

Why does everyone always believe their country is an exception to animal cruelty? The link you provided only proved that animal cruelty still occurs. I am not sure if you read the article yourself or that you are numb to animal cruelty just as modern dairy farmers are.

As mentioned in the blog you provided:

- Artificial insemination is still a practice used by dairy farmers
- The mother cow is still inseminated yearly. She claimed that’s how it naturally occurs for cows in the wild. However, there are no wild cows as they have been extinct long ago. Cattle has been evolved through domestication.
- The mother cow is impregnated at 15 months, not 12. That's not a massive difference.
- Taking the baby male calf away from the mother was still mentioned, in fact the blogger mentioned they are sent away to be raised for beef (after a week or so). She must have become insensitive to animal suffering because somehow she thinks sending the child of the mother away after a short while is better than sending them away immediately.
- Mother cows are still shipped away for slaughter. Cows life expectancy is at 25 years, however, the blogger has mentioned they are shipped for slaughter at 8-10 years.

The blogger claimed they take better care for baby calves than their mother. I am not sure how a human who only has interest in maximising profit for their dairy farms, sends the baby male calf away for beef (as they are useless for their industry) has better interests than the mother of the cow who would desire to keep the baby calf alive. (In fact even Gurbani mentions the bond between the mother cow and it's baby which is explained later).

No one should blindly believe anything on veganism, as I did not myself when I first heard of veganism. I did plenty of research but only found that artificial insemination, sending male calves away for slaughter is standard practices. Canada is no exception. You’ll even find recent debates between vegans and dairy farmers and dairy farmers never deny these practices. In fact they are only good at dodging questions. Here are a couple of recent short debates:

[www.youtube.com]
[www.youtube.com]

Even when you think about this realistically, there are over 30 million Canadians. There is always an increasing demand with the increasing population, they do not have the resource or time to be taking care of cows in these made up perfect conditions. Their business is about maximizing profit and the animals are just products of their business. If the animal is useless they are sent away for slaughter.

One cannot assume dairy industries are in perfect conditions when the world is driven by greed and money. If I told you egg industry or meat industry was cruel, no sikh here would argue as it fits into sikhi. If I were to tell you dairy industry is cruel, now all the Sikhs are denying facts and believe their country is an exception to this.

If anything, you should be pushing for veganism as it will destroy corrupt organizations that are making money from the life and suffering of animals. It is strange to be against a peaceful movement.

For those who have empathy for other species, you can watch a video by a former dairy farmer:
[www.youtube.com]

There are other jyot vigasi Sikhs that consume dairy

Truth is, only a jyot vigasi sikh will know another jyot vigasi sikh. And another note, there are many levels of bharmgyan. You cannot know the truth and extent of Vaheguru when we are just a human, it will take a very long time.

For a sikh, they should never rely on the opinion or actions of another sikh that they believe are jyot vigasi. Instead you should be becoming or reaching for that level yourself so that you will know all truth and get answers from Guru Sahib.

Not consuming milk will get you to saachkhand.

This is obvious. Not consuming milk will not get you to saachkhand, just as consuming milk will not get you to saachkhand. However, that does not mean we trample on the lives of other species unnecessarily on our path to saachkhand. To only think of one’s own benefit and not about the direct harm caused to others is selfish and un-sikh thinking. Why would selfish qualities attract Vaheguru to us? A true sikh does not actually desire to go to saachkhand but desire to be absorbed in the love of Vaheguru. To understand the love that needs to be given to Vaheguru is to have Daya. (I’ll explain this later, so please read on ;D ).

Sikhs have always been about helping other beings who are outside of our problems as we have done in many examples throughout history, where we have helped mulsims or hindus even though they provide no benefit to help us attain saachkhand.

Dairy farm animals may be outside of our problems, but they are not outside of our care or compassion. Society treats murderers, rapists far better than we have to livestock animals for centuries only because they do not speak our language and look different.

Veganism is a religion

Veganism is just a lifestyle which refuses to partake in the direct and unnecessary harm to animals. It is not a religion. You may be seeing it like a religion because compassion to animals is alien to most people. There are many Christians and Muslims that are becoming vegan.

Arguing for Veganism is disrespecting Guru Sahib

Not once have I disrespected Guru Sahib. That is taking my arguments out of context. If dairy farms were not profit-driven and treated farm animals with care and respect, there probably would be no such thing as veganism.

The milk of institutionalised dairy farms you consume nowadays is not the same that was consumed during Guru Sahib’s time. No vegan cares about what was done over 100 years back. It is about the actions of the consumer now and the harm that is being caused.

Many rodents suffer from farming vegetation

A lot of these are recycled arguments. I have already addressed these issues. But if you are concerned about the rodents that suffer from farming vegetables, then you should be vegan by default. By consuming dairy products, a large amount of rainforests are destroyed to feed livestock. Now just imagine how many animals went extinct because of this.

Suffering is part of the world

Even if suffering is a part of the world, that does not mean we need to unnecessarily cause suffering. Imagine if we used this argument to justify other cruel actions. We as a consumer are directly paying for the animals to suffer. Consuming dairy is not a necessity for the human body; in fact it is causing more health problems than it is good.

Your claim that milk causes osteoporosis is false
The studies that you provide explain that acidity food is not bad for your bones. But it does not say that high acidity food, such as animal protein, is bad for your health. The following study shows that high consumption of milk was associated with mortality and fractures in women and men. [www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]. This article by Dr Gregor explains the milk consumption and osteoporosis correlation and references a number of sources: [nutritionfacts.org]

Casomorphin is just sensationalised news
Firstly, your source only shows that it is not on the same level of addiction as a drug but still states that it has an opioid effect – it makes you feel good, so you want to come back to that feeling. That article also uses a dairy industry funded study and study on rats, which have a different biology than us. So, what stimulates a rat will be different for a human.

Secondly, the casomorphin are absorbed from digestion which this study shows [efsa.onlinelibrary.wiley.com] In dairy, it is higher in morphin levels in cheese compared to normal dairy e.g. milk. But nonetheless, it still contains that morphin effect of opium and there is a book (The Cheese Trap) on the subject as well. It is also dangerous for infants due to the opioid effect - [www.neuropeptidesjournal.com]

IGF1, Cancer from Animal Protein is “sensationalized media”

IGF-1 at a normal level is healthy. However, animal protein triggers raised levels and high amounts of IGF1 in our liver which is unhealthy and cancer causing. This study shows that high amounts of IGF-1 causes cancer: [www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]. This is combined with high amounts of sex hormones. The Dairy and Meat also contains high amounts of estrogen, and estrogen is deemed to cause cancer as stated by the National Institute of Environmental Health Sciences. The amount of estrogen can be found here: [www.sciencedirect.com]. The combination of both is explained here [academic.oup.com] that leads to breast cancer in women. High levels of IGF-1 also creates Angiogenesis blood which feeds cancer. One last thing, this study shows how a plant-based diet decreases cancer growth and that cancer is more common in western countries due to their western diet [www.hindawi.com].

Here is another study done in Japan, that showed introducing the western diet into their lifestyle of dairy, meat and egg after WW2 increased prostate cancer and death rates: [www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]. Both the estrogen and high saturated fats played a role in this. You should all already be aware of this that animal protein is high in saturated fats, which are bad fats. This study also shows correlation between milk and prostate cancer: [www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov].

There are many more studies, so none of this is “sensationalized media”. Everyone is already aware too that cholesterol is only found in animal protein I.e. dairy, egg and meat, and that it is the number one cause of heart disease. It also causes diabetes type 2 and colon cancer.

Thirdly, there will not be enough studies to support this because just like smoking, it went on for years where Doctors told people that it has no negative affect on your health, even in advertisements, because it made money. The British made money by selling opium to the Chinese, would the British then benefit by explaining to them how bad it is for them. In the same way, the dairy industry is benefiting so will hide this and will put money into studies to support the consumption of dairy.

Guru Sahib calls milk Amrit. ਲੰਗਰਿ ਦਉਲਤਿ ਵੰਡੀਐ ਰਸੁ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਖੀਰਿ ਘਿਆਲੀ ॥

The above shabad line was provided as a reference to explain why ghee is so important in Sikhi. However, all the line says is that the food made and provided by Gurmukh, Bibi Kheevee, is like amrit. This is not mean because the ghee itself is like amrit, but because a Gurmukh made it through purity and compassion. The cow was not an enslaved and tortured cow. If you do not believe these institutionalised cows are being tortured in the condition they live, you do not understand it and are not seeing it from the position of the animal.

Also, Gurbani uses metaphors to describe many things. For example, to praise Vaheguru he is called the dark-skinned Krishan, but then in another shabad Krishan is insulted (called a worm). This is just to give an idea of Vaheguru’s beauty so that we can understand it. In the same way, Saachkhand is named Vishnu’s realm (Baikunth) but it is not that, but it allows us to understand Saachkhand in a humanistic concept.

When Bhagat Kabeer Ji says those who consume fish will go to hell, is he only referring to fish? No, he is referring to all kinds of animals that have similar traits as a fish (a sentient being) e.g. brain, central nervous system, pain receptors etc.

So this does not conclude that ghee of dairy is compulsory.

Being so passionate to be compassionate to animals; seems a sickness. "MAS MAS KAR MOORAKH JHAGREY"

That shabad you used is referring to the name of meat (flesh), not meat (animal) itself. Whenever Gurbani uses a word twice together, e.g. har har, it is referring to the name of Vaheguru, not Vaheguru himself. The Shabad is for Pandits that used to close their ears to the word flesh being spoken and call it evil. Why would the word flesh be evil when we are made out of it ourselves?

Compassion is positive attribute. But without the "life of spirit", it seems useless. It must be followed by GURU-WARD-ism or GOD-WARD-ism.

Compassion in itself is never useless. According to Guru Sahib it is not useless too. Gurbani heavily emphasises on a number of virtues that we need to possess such as Truth, Compassion, Contentment, Humility, Dharam etc.

simaran bhajan dhiaa nahee keenee ta mukh chottaa khaahigaa ||2||
You do not remember the Lord, or vibrate upon Him in meditation, and you do not practice compassion; you shall be beaten on your face. ||2||

The word to describe compassion is daya, which is a Sanskrit word meaning to sympathise and to understand the suffering of the sufferer. In the above line, Guru Sahib says by not practicing both, jap of Naam and being compassionate that person will be beaten.

Our path to Vaheguru is to have love for Vaheguru, to be a partner of Vaheguru. Whenever Vaheguru is praised he is described as compassionate and that he protects all beings. Why would Vaheguru see you as a suitable partner if you lack the basic level of these qualities and do not care to progress in them, as Vaheguru has the highest. It is the same way when a human looks for a partner, you would look for a match for you.

Any PANKITI from Gurbani which supports that level of VEGANISM which prohibits milk and honey. And If we are rearing dairy animals with all care for their needs and pains ( Guru Nanak Dev Ji used to graze dairy animals; with all love and caring), then what is wrong in 'that' milk. If we are 'brotherly' with the calf; what is harm in sharing his/her mother's food; as a 'Sibling'. Is it not the justified way of living in harmony with nature. Is not living supportive to animals better than living away from animals.

There is no reason for Gurbani to talk against milk, because obtaining milk itself from a cow does not cause harm to the cow. Gurbani already mentions (please search this yourself as there are many lines) of how a mother cow loves her calf, and the calf is in happiness when it sucks her udder, that the mother cow is lonely without her calf and that even when the mother cow is in a distance away her attention is focussed on her calf. In today’s modern society, all this is impossible. As the calf is taken away immediately and then raised to be slaughtered or caged/enslaved to produce milk for the masses. Nothing like Guru Sahib’s time.

Instead Gurbani reflects on compassion as a virtue to be practiced by the Sikh, as the Sikh needs to use his/her own virtues that are being practiced to understand what is right and what is wrong.

saramai dheeaa mu(n)dhraa ka(n)nee paai jogee khi(n)thhaa kar too dhiaa ||
Make humility your ear-rings, Yogi, and compassion your patched coat.

Do you think this world is run by saints? No, it is run by evil. The people in charge are deluded by Maya, which means they are driven by avguns. They do whatever is needed to make money but when direct suffering is acknowledged by you e.g. the dairy industry and you support them by paying them to continue to exploit these cows, enslave them, allow them to be slaughtered for meat after and cause the death of male calves.

A part of Bibek Budh is the virtue of Compassion, so Vaheguru has already given us the tool to understand what we need to be doing.

What is wrong in using skin from a dead animal for TABLA etc.

If the animal is already dead from dying a natural death, then there is nothing wrong with using the skin. But if the animal is murdered for its skin, that is immoral. However, we have access to synthetic materials for tabla, so when it is unnecessary to continue to use animal skin why are we still using it? This gives people the chance to kill animals for that purpose to make money.
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Re: Veganism
May 13, 2018 04:58AM
Vahiguroo dya,
arrow also please note the following article if you do not produce your own vegetables etc like gurmat bibekis of this website ji:
[www.naturalnews.com]

Tuhi♡
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Re: Veganism
May 13, 2018 08:01AM
The reason sikhs should not be vegans is due to logic.
1. Vegan diet is not complete. There is no nonanimal way of naturally getting B12. Yes there r synthetic forms of B-12. But we dont want to rely on synthetics. If the world collapses and we have to live in jungles, no syntheic B-12.
You could say but were not living in jungles now. Thats true but the path guruji made has to be followable thtoughout all time. So sikhs should not adopt or promote veganism as part of sikhi as the world can change and we need rules that can stand test of time. Also what should sikhs in india do? Who raise cattle for a living? Its should be a personal choice of a sikh. Such as should one drive environmentally friendly cars. Let ppl make these decisions. Do not try to force a narrative using sikhi. There r enough rehits/rules already.
2. Veganism is not unique. Jains during gurus times and many others tried this ahimsa pathway. Not killing even a single insect was there goal. So they would sweep, put on breathing masks etc. Guru ji rejected all of these philosphies numerous times as can be seen in gurbani. There were ppl who would not even eat plants as they were alive, and would only drink milk as that harmed no living creature. They were called dudadharis. Guruji rejected them. There is a cost to living in this world. We should try to do minimum harm, but that should not be our goal. Guruji also rejected vaishnus, the vegetarians. Only being vegetarian wont save you, u need naam. These worldly causes like veganism, getting khalistaan, water in panjaab, helping the environment dont impress guruji. Nor are they the end goal of sikhs. Sikhs can or cannot support them. It should not be mandatory
3. You are right. That dairy farms are cruel. We should try to fix them. It would have a bigger impact sooner. Then trying to turn whole world vegan. We have a goat in our backyard in america. We let her get preganant naturally. Let the calf drink her milk for 3 months. Then only in the daytime. So we can milk every morning.
More sikhs should open bibeki dairies, farms, shops etc. Get out of the service sector jobs like doctor, lawyer, engineer etc.
4. That is why cow was sacred in india. It was the only animal that was domesticated and 'enslaved' according to u. Do u know those cows had rights and treated with respect. Ofc this went out of hand and ppl even worshipped cows but i see the original logic behind respecting the cow. So ppl developed rules on not butchering it as that would negate our vegetarianism as that cow is being used for meat now. We need to bring these type of dairies to the world. Not give up on the dairy industry. Its too bad, that in india ppl are developing more dairies and following suit
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Re: Veganism
May 13, 2018 06:29PM
You are recycling your comments again and again, how much compassion you attain by just being a Vegan? And how much compassion does a non-vegan attain? How do you calculate that? Do you take care of insects when you step out of home? I made you conscious that you kill millions of insects everyday, now will you start being careful in taking steps when you walk? will you? Will you stop using industrial producs like oils, creams, wearing shoes, clothes that involve silk, shampoos etc. list goes on, will you stop using industrial products because industries misuse poor people...........if you dont stop doing this, how do you ensure that you are more compassionate than non-vegan by just sticking to cow thing? if a non-vegan does 101 sufferings, how do you know that by being a vegan you remain on 100 sufferings? You are just stuck in one idea, while truth is that only Khalsa Rehit and Naam can save you from this complex situation. You need to hang around with some senior Gurmukhs whio are exxperienced naam Abhyaasis, and immediately start working towards the Goal for which we have been sent to this world, dont waste time with this ego that you are the only right person who has got enlightened to reach Waheguru on his own with his own knowledge, and that too attained from science which only relates to materialistic findings.

1.) If you think that without sangat of saadh sangat, or without following footsteps of mahapurakhs, brahmgyanis who have attained waheguru, you alone can reach waheguru with your own so called bibek budhi, you are on wrong path. Find on your own many panktis of Gurubani which make this clear. Find panktis in Sukhmani Sahib, to give you a hint smiling smiley
This is the problem, the ego, that i can myself follow footsteps of Guru Sahib, how will you know the footsteps without true sangat, the abhyaasi Gursikhs, who have learnt rehit from their predecessors some of them who were of high awastha.....how will you know rehit on your own, just by reading books? never, not possible. This itself shows that you are a fresher, who after reading books is making such big claims.
This is also written in Gurubani how to identify a Brahmgyani, again, in Sukhmani Sahib.
So my advise is that you do Ardaas to Guru Sahib to bless you with satsangat, where you can lean a lot and grow in Sikhi.
Your wording shows that all you are concerned with is veganism, trying to search lines in Gurbnani which support it.

2.) You say that make policies or do sewa to prevent child abuse in industry, but you never said that stop using industrial stuff all in iteself to stop this abuse, why? Because you know that you cannot stop using industrial stuff, hypocrisy!! ainhhhh!!! smiling smiley)
Why dont you take initiative in doing sewa in dairy farming instead, instead of telling world to stop consuming dairy products, work on policies to treat animals better, better ways of getting milk from cows like it used to be old times!! Here you wont agree? Because suffering always exists in food, in all foods, but the one who directly causes it, will bear fruit for it. But food is needed to survive, to do Bhagti, dairy is very important, we dont want to listen from science that how without dairy one can live. We listen to Gurmukhs, who know the importance of dairy walking on path to Waheguru.

3.) Do you know Bhagat Dhanna ji asks for a "laaveri cow", and also asks for Ghee to waheguru? Do you know what is laaveri cow? A cow which recently gave birth to calf and gives milk.
This is just to prove the importance of milk and Ghee in food, which is important for Bhagti. Against your argument that one can survive without them, why did bhagat Dhanna g ask for milk and Ghee specially? Hope you are able to catch the point, if you do naam abhyaas only then you can know.

4.) You give such a raw idea to save rodent lives, that just be a vegan it will be solved. Such a baseless argument.
So much crop is used in industry apart from Dairy, but you will never say that stop using industrial products, you will say that be a vegan. Do you think being a vegan will make agriculture weak? Will veganism stop industry? Actually truth is that you just care about cows, that is your agenda, you dont have compassion for rodents, because you do need lentils on your plate. In that case you will say that you got to survive. Again, you cannot calculate that you are more compassionate by being a vegan.

5.) There are many people hungry for food and dying, are you that compassionate that you dont eat at all knowing their suffering? How can you eat when you know that the food brought on your plate has caused suffering to so many people in Africa. Like industry misused them and gave you food, same way dairymen misused cows and gave us milk, what is the differnce? How come dairy is direct suffering and industry is not? Now you dont drink milk, but to replace it you consumed almond milk, but that almond milk has been brought to you by exploiting kids/labour, who dont get one meal properly in a day. So now tell, me my one glass of milk and your almond milk, how do you claim you scored more compassion?
Now you suggest that sort out policies in countries to solve suffering of labour but keep eating industrial food. Why dont you apply same to dairy? Because you are biased with your study, you think only vegan.

This should be enough to make you understand, hopfully, otherwise, there is no hope smiling smiley

Waheguru G Ka Khalsa
Waheguru G Ki Fateh
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Re: Veganism
May 15, 2018 04:52PM
nimarta,
i have to diasgree on Guru Sahib being against Khalistan, water issue etc in Punjab.
i had read online Guru Sahib reminded someone about not even brushing against flowers without apologising.
Sikh Shaheeds today labelled atwadi, because cruelty was supported by our own, who also labelled used same label on our shaheeds.
So we should at least avoid such products if exploitation, cruelty is being made known to us, as a effort to bring change for all creation to receive freedom to speak, live.. like you are in usa as such due to Punjab water, etc issues?
bhul chuk muaf
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Re: Veganism
May 16, 2018 09:22AM
Thanks Arrow Ji, for being so compassionate. I liked your veganism views and responses. I feel, I am tilting towards your ism.

One more point which goes against dairy industry is that male calf, is not being used as bullock power these days, in general. And it is a burden always and had to be used as MEAT, for dairy to be economically feasible to the farmer. Fodder is so costly to be fed to unproductive animals.

Thanks Ji
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Re: Veganism
May 18, 2018 03:29PM
Which food has more suffering, a glass of almond milk or glass of cow milk? And how do you calculate that?

How about Banana, there is forced labor/child labor in ecuador/phillipines in banana industry. Which food on your plate doesnt involve a story of cruelty?

Answer these.

Its hypocrisy or lack of information. Or just thinking one aspect, and getting biased to it.

Daya means that you never give pain to any being with your direct actions. But you can never take care of someone else's bad karma, even if you become vegan, because whatever you bring in to replace dairy, it too has same thing in it.

ONly naam and Rehit can save.

Guru Sahib Baksh den

Waheguru G Ka Khalsa
Waheguru G Ki Fateh
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Re: Veganism
May 20, 2018 11:33AM
To MB Singh
Thanks for your post. If you have any more questions please ask. Also, if you do try Veganism make sure to include dark leafy greens into your diet e.g. spinach, kale, broccoli etc. B12 and Vitamin D are also important to supplement, which will be explained below as a response to previous posters.

Which food has more suffering, a glass of almond milk or glass of cow milk? And how do you calculate that? And Actually truth is that you just care about cows, that is your agenda, you dont have compassion for rodents
The exaggerated death of rodents is a myth created by meat eaters, which involved no study at all. Again, this is why I said earlier that vegetarians use the same arguments as Meat eaters. Studies however prove the opposite. The rodents were found to be intelligent and adaptable, all survived harvesting machines while those who did not survive was due to predators killing them. All the rodents were intelligent enough to quickly react to harvesting machines to avoid danger and relocate. For example, a German Study fitted radio collars to 85 voles and studied them “before and after mulching, mowing, harvesting, harvesting and ploughing.” It was found that the only thing the harvesting did was remove cover which decreased spatial activity and home range size of the voles. But none died. All it did was increased risk of predation. As a result the voles changed their habits, travel routes and how far they travelled and even relocated until the vegetation grew back. [anupamkatkar.com]

Also, a lot of crops are produced in poorer countries where harvesting machines are not used because they are expensive. So, again this also proves most rodents are less likely to be harmed. [www.theflamingvegan.com]

However, if all this was true, which it is not. The vast majority of crops are fed to livestock. So you are funding industries to breed livestock where most crops are fed to and on top of them you are buying vegetables to feed yourself.

Now, what is true is that in the livestock industry, in addition to livestock more animals are killed. In order to protect the livestock from predators those predators are killed. Deforestation is another cause of death of animals. 70% of deforestation is due to livestock. Animal Agriculture is the leading cause of species extinction, ocean dead zones, water pollution and habitat destruction. [www.cowspiracy.com]

Again, if rodents were being harmed due to the dairy industry, those rodents are not product of exploitation, the cows are. If you were a meat eater I would tell you that it is immoral to consume animals such as pig, lamb, fish, cow, chicken, dog etc as these are the products of exploitation. They are the target. You are taking the milk from a living sentient being, which means that being is undergoing suffering because you want the milk from its body.

Additionally, if any type of animal, marine life or rodents were being killed is because of people like yourself who do not give any value to animals. They are seen as objects and property. If the world went Vegan, organisations and industries will be more cautious of harming animals as they will be valued. A system will be put into place to avoid harming them, the best that can be done, in the process of growing the crops.

It is not about calculating the amount of death. If a train was going to hit a group of people and I had the choice of pushing one person onto the track for the train to collide into to save many more, I would not do it because that one person is as important as all those people. It is not about the number, but about showing compassion to who you can show compassion to.

Now you dont drink milk, but to replace it you consumed almond milk, but that almond milk has been brought to you by exploiting kids/labour, and here is forced labor/child labor in ecuador/phillipines in banana industry.
This is a big problem and it comes down to poverty. Child labour occurs in all kinds of agriculture such as livestock production, farming, aquaculture etc. These families are in a state of survival, the parents are sending their children into these environments to survive. It is wrong because it affects the child’s health and life. But what needs to be fixed is the root cause which is poverty. We can help by donating to countries that use child labor to help them obtain education and more. Also, if you want to reduce agriculture to reduce child labor is to stop breeding animals for people to consume animals and their by-products because 70% of crops are fed to livestock and on top of that you buy vegetables to feed to yourself.

In all honesty, you are not concerned for child labour because the point you are trying to make is that suffering always occurs so let us continue with the extent we are causing.

Will you stop using industrial producs like oils, creams, wearing shoes, clothes that involve silk, shampoos etc. list goes on?
Yes, I already have. There are vegan-friendly versions of almost everything nowadays. If every individual made the same excuses here i.e. death is a part of this world, there would never be other alternatives.

If you think that without sangat of saadh sangat, or without following footsteps of mahapurakhs, brahmgyanis who have attained waheguru, you alone can reach waheguru with your own so called bibek budhi, you are on wrong path.
True saadh sangat is where you sit in the sangat on the same level before Guru Sahib and sing keertan. There is no higher saint than Guru Sahib. Plus, a true bharmgyani will always direct you to Guru Sahib, not to themselves. If you think you’ll become lost in reciting naam and Gurbani, then you need to gain faith in Guru Sahib or Sikhi. If you take the example of the lives of a true bharmgyani, you’ll see they have only taken guidance from Guru Sahib. If everyone took guidance from Guru Sahib directly, everyone would have a unique loving relationship with Guru Sahib and there would likely be less problems/hatred/greed/jealously amongst Sikhs.

The importance of dairy walking on path to Waheguru.
Sikhs do not believe in the Hindu concept of cow, so there is no high value in one animal than it would be in another.

Vegan diet is not complete, If the world collapses and we have to live in jungles
Even if milk does contain B12, this study suggests vegetarians are still consuming an inadequate intake of this vitamin and are thus deficient in it (https://academic.oup.com/nutritionreviews/article-abstract/71/2/110/1940320?redirectedFrom=PDF).

90% of B12 Supplements are fed to livestock (Dairy Cows) because they do not get B12 in soil as it is treated. Not enough is produced in their livers which passes into milk. B12 is naturally found in untreated soil, but because everything is treated the dairy cow has to be supplemented and we cannot get our B12 naturally as “Roots of a variety of field grown vegetables contained appreciable amounts of B12...No B12 was found in excised tomato roots grown under sterile conditions in liquid media.” You could also get your B12 from untreated water (pond water), which would be possible in your jungle scenario. (http://www.jstor.org/stable/2482180?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents)

In modern society, 90% of you are currently consuming supplemented B12 through the cow, some countries (like Canada it is by law and US) that cow’s milk is fortified with vitamin D too and antibiotics will also be found in milk because domesticated cows are prone to disease. However, a vegan goes straight to the supplement of B12 and Vitamin D.

So if we were in your “What if” scenario living in jungles, the B12 will be untreated so we will have enough of it. However, if the world did turn out this way, depending on how it happened, most of the domesticated animals could end up not surviving through it, as they cannot survive without humans. The wild counter parts of these animals could as they are natural survivors and smarter.

What you are suggesting is in itself cruel. So for there being a chance of a hypothetical jungle scenario, you’ll be happy for current day industries to continue to exist and you want to continue paying for billions of animals to be bred for the sole purpose to be tortured and killed?

Plus, survival does not fit too well for a sikh anyway as meat is prohibited. And if anything that would cause your “what if” scenario would probably be due to animal agriculture as it is the leading cause of climate change, ocean dead zones, species extinction and habitat destruction. Animal agriculture is destroying this planet.

In the end, there is no need to worry about these situations, Vaheguru takes care of us and it is up to Vaheguru who will survive or not even if you get your b12 from cows milk.

My post if for Sikhs living in the west, not India- their lifestyle is very much different to ours. However, if they use the cruel practices used in the west, then I do not support their actions.

It is not a personal choice when there is a direct victim involved; you are directly sending baby male calves to slaughter as the female cows needs to be impregnated for you to consume milk. It is not hard to be vegan, you eat the same as you do but you buy/make the vegan alternative which is very easy to do.

Veganism is not unique. Jains during gurus times and many others tried this ahimsa pathway. Only being vegetarian wont save you, u need naam
Jains still consumed milk in the past. Veganism is new to Jainism and some of them adopt this lifestyle too now. Those Jains who avoided harm because they cared for living creatures are compassionate, those who did it to avoid karma are good but not compassionate.

Is it immoral or evil to care for all creatures? When I show care to creatures I do not care about karma, karma does not concern me, my concern is that I do not harm them as I do not want to see them suffer. From our survival there will always be a life that is harmed, however I will not knowingly walk on an insect if I can avoid it. Again this is not due to being concerned about karma.

Being a caring person has nothing to do with liberating yourself. The point of this thread is not being selfish and only thinking about one’s self. Doing Jap of Naam will remove a lot of your karma, but you could possibly return to earth to continue to jap naam. You do not know when you will be liberated. I am sure plenty of Sikhs thought that they will be liberated in the life they lived. If you come back you will not be aware of your previous life and you will continue causing unnecessary harm while thinking that it is fine as long as you are liberated, and you will probably come back again.

How much compassion you attain by just being a Vegan?
This is about being a compassionate person, not about attaining the ultimate compassion. You can continue caring for beings if you are a caring person. There are many forms of caring for others e.g. giving a percentage of jap of naam to others around the world and some for yourself, doing seva for the poor, in your country or in other countries, being able to help people from criminal harm through your naam etc.
Some of the points mentioned above are optional depending on the compassion of the Sikh, but if you are causing unnecessary harm then you are not utilising any of your gunn of compassion and empathy.

You are struggling to care because you lack compassion, as you do not want to care. This is why we should be practicing it, otherwise we turn into cruel beings who believe that we are kind. In certain conditions we will appear kind, even tricking our own mind, but when we are placed in a condition/situation that challenges our gunns and avguns our true nature will come out. The more we practice gunns while doing naam abhiyaas and gunn gaavay of Vaheguru, the stronger those gunns will be and will fight our avguns in challenging situations.

Do you know Bhagat Dhanna ji asks for a "laaveri cow", and also asks for Ghee to waheguru? Do you know what is laaveri cow? A cow which recently gave birth to calf and gives milk.
In the same shabad Bhagat Dhanna Ji also asks for a horse. This shows that he asked for what was needed in the survival situation that he lived in, where it was necessary. Are you going to ask for a horse now? No, we have other means of transport. Again, Gurbani uses examples, metaphors etc to explain the meaning behind the shabad.

There are many people hungry for food and dying, are you that compassionate that you dont eat at all knowing their suffering?
Firstly, there is enough food to feed to the poor if animal agriculture ended. Secondly, we can donate to poorer people. There are many ways to donate to them.

work on policies to treat animals better,
This is unrealistic in this contemporary society, as it is not profitable for the fast growing large population.

Another point, 200 years ago slave welfarists said the same about slaves, laws were put into place like now with animals but the act of slavery was still immoral, and nonetheless they were still harmed. Abolitionists ended slavery, that was the better treatment. Currently, Animal Sanctuaries exist, this is where animals are not exploited but treated better.
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Re: Veganism
May 20, 2018 11:45AM
♡Vaho Pyare Guru Arjan Dev♡ Jio desi gheo ..

[youtu.be]

Vahiguroo
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Re: Veganism
May 21, 2018 05:05PM
1.) You could not answer that which product has more compassion in it. It is important to know that how far one can go in compassion, we need to draw line because as you also said we cannot be fully compassionate 100%, we will die otherwise. Why choose cow and ignore other species. And if we go to save all we get nothing to eat. (Dont mix meat issue, its different, Sikh cannot consume meat whether killed directly or indirectly, as its hukam of Guru Sahib)

During farming many ecosystems are created, and destroyed when crop is reaped, whether its rodents, or many other beings living in that eco-system. We reap crop for our needs, we dont care about suffering of beings involved in destruction caused to eco-systems involved.

Any scientific study you quote, German or whatever, is biased, science supports industry, its pro-industry. Today's sceince specially. its a separate topic dont want to go in that in more details.

No one can deny that many species die, their homes destroyed in farming. Truth is that no activity can be free from suffering to any being. But there is a code of conduct for Khalsa, if followed, one will be saved.

2.) No one can change ingredient of Degh, no manmatt allowed.

3.) When we talk about child labor, then you want to correct root cause :poverty. When we talk about dairy, there you want to stop consuming milk, but you dont want to work on root cause, i.e cow violence, work on it, prevent them, make policies.
You dont want to stop consuming other industrial products, you want to correct poverty. Same way we dont want to stop consuming dairy (we love Guru Sahib's degh), but we agree that cow violence should be worked upon, policies should be made to get milk from them with compassion, only that much which they can happily support.

4.) Only way to be compassionate is to keep Rehit, and jap naam. You cannot be compassionate to indirect harms caused for you food. But if you yourself milk cow mercilessly, you cannot jap naam, you can try that. But any ingredient which has bad karma of someone else, you cannot do anything about it, especially in today's times, as everything cmoes through industry. Here Rehit like Sarbloh will help, cook the sarbloh way.

Keeping compassion for one being and ignoring others, or trying to be compassionate to all will never help. Only Bhagti will help along with rehit as i explained.

5.) I was thinking that you will again bring compassion for horse talking about Bhagat Dhanna g asking for horse as horses are tamed since ages by tying their nose, that's not compassionate, but sikhs did use horses this way.

Diet and mode of transport are different. Like one cannot replace Degh with something else even today, but there are somethings which can be changed, but only those things which are out of Sikhi and are only needed to survive and be in sync with Kalyug way of living. E.g Mobile phone
But the things which affect one's spiritual journey, cannot be changed. They are part of Khalsa Rehit, which is timeless.

"Punjwaan Paya Ghirt (Ghee), taan howa paak Pavitt"
This is how pure is ghee in degh, and important.

Rehit also mentions ingredients of Degh, and they will always remain same.

What is metaphor and what is not (there are some direct hukams in Gurbani and some indirect), if you decide with your own mind, you cannot be successful in Sikhi.

What things can be changed, and what not, we need to learn from senior abhyasee Gursikhs (That is why Guru Sahib mentions importance of sangat of Gursikh Sadhus, abhyasis, only with sangat of them one can go far). There is no other way. If you follow your mind, it will want to change whole rehit itself to suit its needs. There is lot of material available on web, books which will take you away from Rehit. Especially those who believe in science and apply its concepts on spiritual path, they will never be able to adopt Rehit and never be able to reach higher awasthas of jyot Vigaas/brahmgyaan.
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Re: Veganism
June 01, 2018 05:59AM
Arrow
There are many way Sikhi develops in a person's life. It may develop from the presence of fear of death, fear of judgement. But some times it may be a time enduring attraction towards the Guru Sahibs.

But after it has developed somewhat in one's mind some common factors crop up and take space. They may go into the background but they never die or go away, they always remain there.

1.Love and attraction towards Guru Sahibs
2. An unshakeable faith in their divinity
3. A desire for experiencing Naam, Baani and Waheguru ji
4. A desire to go deep into Bhagti and the spiritual experience that Naam brings.
5. A belief that this life is temporary, and basically should be lived at a practical level, and that the actual real thing is bhagti.
6. A desire to live, experience and preserve the way of life of Gurus and their times.


ਨਾਮ ਬਿਨਾ ਸਭਿ ਕੂੜੁ ਗਾਲੑੀ ਹੋਛੀਆ

Does all this resonate in your heart? Does this strike a chord?

If not you should move on. Go away and preach your 'ism' somewhere else.
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Re: Veganism
June 02, 2018 05:54AM
1. You could not answer which product has more compassionate in it

You may have not understood my answer, you cannot count compassion you show compassion where it is possible to easily be compassionate.

Another point, you answered the question for me in this very sentence of yours. You view animals as products, you are comparing them to actual products like crops. Mobile phones, crops etc can be made by anyone – it is not a must that children need to work in these industries. However, milk can only be taken from a Cow, so it is a must for these cows to be in this industry. There is your difference.

2. But there is a code of conduct for Khalsa, if followed, one will be saved.

Degh seems to be the only reason for Sikh to consume milk, just like taste is the only reason for a Vegetarian or a meat eater yet both still make other excuses to justify this act.

If a Sikh does not consume degh, they will still be saved.

3. Rehit also mentions ingredients of Degh, and they will always remain same.

Show me two rehit:

1. Where it states COW’s MILK is a MUST to be used to make degh.
2. Degh MUST be consumed to be liberated

4. When we talk about child labor, then you want to correct root cause :poverty. When we talk about dairy, there you want to stop consuming milk

We want to end child labour so we end poverty. You cannot end child labour by not consuming plant food otherwise you will die. In the same way, we want to end animal exploitation by not paying to consume milk. There is no difference.

Again, cows need to be exploited for you to have milk whereas children do not need to be exploited for us to eat wheat, rye, oats, soy, beans, greens etc. Therefore, if you stop consuming milk, the dairy industry will be put out of business so no more cows will be exploited.

Cows are not products, they are living sentient beings. They cannot give consent for you to take their milk. Their mind is like a child.

5. Only way to be compassionate is to keep Rehit, and jap naam. You cannot be compassionate to indirect harms caused for you food

You can be more compassionate by practicing the gunn of compassion and keeping Rehit and Jap Naam.

6. Keeping compassion for one being and ignoring others, or trying to be compassionate to all will never help.

Being compassionate where it is possible will help. We can easily avoid animal excretion, we cannot easily avoid plant food.

7. I was thinking that you will again bring compassion for horse talking about Bhagat Dhanna g asking for horse as horses are tamed since ages by tying their nose, that's not compassionate, but sikhs did use horses this way.

Sikhs lived in a poorer and state of survival where they had no technology, no cars etc. They had no choice then. If Guru Sahib was here why would he continue to ride a horse when it is causing unnecessary harm to the animal?

8. Diet and mode of transport are different. Like one cannot replace Degh with something else even today,

Ardas by the sangat can change this as it is important because a living sentient being is being exploited, harmed and killed because of rehit.
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Re: Veganism
June 02, 2018 09:08AM
So much so for FOOD ! As if we came to maatlok to eat only !

My 2 cents, to Mr. Arrow Jee, is to come out of your classroom, do some sangat and meet the Singhs who eat 2 Rotis & around 250ml of Daal.
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Re: Veganism
June 02, 2018 03:14PM
answer points wise :

1.) Every thing has a karma bound to it in spiritual world. Like Baba Nanak squeezed out blood from one Roti and milk from another, to show that how sins get into food.
This is how there is more or less compassion in food, which food has bad karma and how much of it. So you cannot know how many sins are involved in any food while getting that food from a being.
You chose not to show compassion to suffering of forced child labor, other species who suffer beacause of farming/production cycles by industry....as you dont want to stop consuming other industrial products apart from dairy. So looking at large picture, how can you claim that being a vegan is more compassionate? You need a very deep dive to understand this very simple point.

2.)/3.) Degh is an order of Guru Sahib, Ghee is also order of Guru Sahib, Ghee is obtained from cow/buffalo milk as it always has been. Guru Sahib have already proved it's importance. The way you talk about Degh, this clearly shows how weak a sikh you are, you dont even know the spiritual importance of Degh. Those are basics, dont want to get into that, almost all people on this forum know the spiritual value of Degh. This shows that you consider Degh as just a food. This shows influence of science on your mind.
If Khalsa Rehitnama talks about Degh preparation, way of distribution, and that too Guru Gobind Singh jee instructing about how to prepare it, how to distribute it in sangat, you dont even know that its there in Rehitnama? This is how Amrit Wela of Sikh ends after Kirtan, consuming Degh. This also shows where you stand in Sikhi, you dont even know importance of Degh. Same way Degh preparation/distribution and consumption is important aspect of Amrit Sanchaar as explained in Rehitnamas.
Rehitnama itself means Rehit which has to be followed in order for a Sikh to get saved and be accpted in Sachkhand.

4.) End Poverty == End Child Labor, no one can end poverty, has anyone ever?
Also, same way, i can make similar loose statement like you made :
Arrest Bad Dairy farmers == End cow violence.
Now you will say blah blah blah, its not so easy, its not practical etc etc. Same way, is it pratical to end poverty?

Secondly, you can end child labor by not consuming industrial products. Have your own farms, work towards it all your life to achieve that level of compassion, you dont want to?

You are so much cowed, i already told you that wheat farming/harvesting involves suffering of many speices including humans. How can you say there is no exploitation, other species are exploited, as farming creates ecosstems and when we harvest we destroy them. Hwo do you know other species dont feel pain? Have you not seen an ant die in pain? Go ahead, put wheat industry out of business, and save so many other species who suffer?

5.) Very baseless point after so much of discussion, how do you know that you become more compassionate by just caring about a cow? When you have no compasssion for all other species who suffer in while getting other food to your plate. If i drnk cow's milk, and you drink almond milk, how do you know you are more compassionate? How do you know that food you consume has not come to your plate after lot of suffering of other species?

6.) When we dont know what we achieve by avoiding animal food (milk), why should we avoid it? As i already said, when other food too has been obtained in discompassionate manner, (other species suffer) , how does it matter? Seeing overall picture, there is no proof that a vegan is more compassionate that non-vegan, how can a vegan score more in Waheguru's court by just avoiding one food?

7.) Technology has caused suffering to animals instead, you as a vegan know it better, there is no change in suffering of animals then and today. Suffering is same, modes and means of suffering have changed. Driving a car doesnt make you more compassionate, that car itself while it was being prouced caused harm to so many beings, you cant imagine.
Again, dont think that if you dont ride a horse now, you have brought relief to mother earth, by causing less suffering to beings, suffering to beings has increased because of industry, whatever food/product it is.
So just by not riding a horse, or not consuming dairy, equation is so complex that you remain on same page, you still are being same much of dis-compassionate but now to other non-cow species as you replaced dairy with other products from industry. Industry is a suffering to this world, to natural resources, species....
Sikhi says that be compassionate to any being you encounter directly, like you meet a cow, dont give her pain. But if buy milk, you should not care the story behind it, like the way you buy bananas, as you dont know the story behind it, how it came to you after suffering of kids in ecuador. those who gave pain directly to any one, bear the karma of that. dairy farmers will bear that.

8.) Any Ardaas that is Anti-Gurmat, is not parvaan, no sangat can do that. Those who try to alter Degh, are not Sikhs at all firstly. Seoncdly there is no point changing it, because the reason give "suffering", will always remain in any ingredient, as we dont know how it came to us. Like one cannot stop putting wheat into Degh if tomorrow some Other species activist starts shouting compassion that XYZ species suffers a lot during wheat harvesting.
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Re: Veganism
June 03, 2018 09:15AM
Arrow Ji

Reading all your views posted above, it seems that veganism will only add to ਹਉਮੈ ਦੀ ਪੰਡ. The idea of compassion by means of adopting veganism is surely flawed. We should not stray away from the path followed by all Gursikhs till now.

Additionally, Degh is not made from milk. Atta, gheo, sugar and water is used. For sure, one who rejects Degh made by Gurmukhs deprives himself of Guru Sahib's kirpa.
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Re: Veganism
June 10, 2018 09:30AM
Why is Veganism more compassionate?

If you want to play with numbers I will explain why a lacto-vegetarian causes more harm than a vegan. I will cover child labour, habit destruction etc.

There are over a billion dairy cows and this is how much they consume:

- over 60% of Grain and Soy is produced for them, others including hay, silage etc.
- 100 pounds of food per cow.
- 90 gallons of water to produce a pound of milk
- 2-5 acres of land used for cows

For one person for one year, a vegan only requires 1/6th acre of land while a vegetarian is an additional 3x more.

Habitat Destruction and Death of Animals in Food Production

More habitat destruction is caused by a Vegetarian due to the acres of land needed not only for cows but also for the food needed to grow for these cows, on top of us.

Not only does a Vegetarian cause more harm to land animals but they also cause harm to marine life. All the waste of these cows and all the crops produced for these cows i.e. pesticides, anti-biotics etc goes into the oceans causing massive dead zones killing fishes. Do you know how many fishes a Vegetarian diet destroys? A farm with 2,500 dairy cows produce the same amount of waste as a city of 411,000 people. Now, we have over billions of cows so imagine how many fishes are dying in oceans?

Not only are Vegetarians causing the destruction mentioned above, all the crops grown for cows could instead be fed to poorer people. We actually have enough to feed 10 billion people but all this food is fed to cows.

Child Labour

Do you know where Child Labour is used in food production? In raising cattle, working on crop farms and picking fruits like bananas (which you mentioned).

Firstly, from what you read above you can see more children will be exploited for a vegetarian diet over a vegan.

Secondly, are you aware of fair trade? You can avoid buying bananas, herbs etc from industries that exploit children and adult workers. There are grocery stores that support fair trade.

Lastly, we can be Vegan and be a conscious buyer, even better, volunteer in organisations that help end it and donate. We can do both, I am just telling you about one injustice. If you want to address another injustice you can make it into another topic, instead of trying to persuade others to continue one injustice for the sake of all injustices.

Almond Milk

Firstly, there is no need to consume Almond Milk. There is no need to consume any plant milk. You can get all the nutrients you need without it. You can just consume almond nuts. Nuts/Seeds have nutrients that we need that other food like lentils, wheat, greens etc do not possess.

A vegetarian will consume nuts just as a vegan does. Vegans are not the only people that consume nuts. So by default a Vegan still causes less harm.

Another point, if one did want to consume almond milk, there is less suffering in it due to less land and water needed to produce it. Only 8 gallons of water is needed to produce a pound of commercial almond milk. In addition, almond milk lasts for weeks/months whereas Cow’s milk only lasts for a week in our fridge. Also, you do not even need to buy commercial almond milk, you can make it yourself at home.

If you really want to consume a plant milk, you can have oat milk. A vegetarian will still consume oats whereas a vegan is just making the oats into milk.

Cow Harm

In addition to causing habitat destruction, Specie Extinction, Ocean Dead Zones, usage of more child labour etc you are also paying for these cows to be harmed by:

- Forcible impregnation
- Child Abduction
- Child Murder (for meat)
- Confinement
- Constant milking
- Murder of Mother Cow for Meat

Animal Welfare

The only people that should be fighting for animal welfare are people like yourself who want to continue drinking milk. But you never see this, because Vegetarians do not really care. Meat eaters have also used the same argument against a Vegan but have done nothing or have been ineffective. There are so many vegetarians and meat eaters, but collectively have made no change but instead they tell a Vegan to make the change for them. The vegan movement is successful as it is growing rapidly every year and is helping reduce animal exploitation every year.

Vegans do not consume milk, so we have no reason to care for animal welfare. We want to end exploitation. We want to end animals being bred into existence to be in the situation they are in now because humans cannot be trusted. Humans have an exploitive mentality.

Degh

All you said is that there is a rehit for the ingredients of Degh but provided none. Degh is an order of Guru Sahib to be served in a Gurdwara, but it is not mandatory to be consumed by the Sikh (if the Sikh has a valid reason). But you did not provide the rehit that says milk is needed to produce ghee for Degh which should be written by Guru Sahib or Bhai Nand Lal Ji, Bhai Daya Singh Ji etc Gurmukhs of his time. I don’t believe Guru Sahib would agree with the exploitation of an animal if it can be avoided.

Ethical Viewpoint (Exploitation)

Why we should not continue farming Cows, including ethical farming.

Exploitation of a sentient being is immoral. The reason why we feel we can exploit animals is because they are less intelligent so cannot fight back or reject the fate placed upon them. This reason also justifies exploiting a mentally disabled human. But we would never allow this for a human for the only difference that one is an animal and the other a human. That we are a different specie.

Speciesism is no different from Racism. We are deciding how we treat a being based on the way they look e.g. keep one as a companion, murder one, enslave one to steal their excretion etc.

As long as we exploit a sentient being, that being will always be harmed in some way or will eventually be harmed because that being is not seen as a being, but a product/object. We are only caring for that animals to meet our ends, not the animal’s end.

Just because we may be causing harm in some other way it does not mean we should continue to cause harm in every way and to the maximum.

Haumai and Ahankar

Causing less harm is not Ahankar, it is being humble. As you are seeing moral value in a being that we would otherwise look down upon. When we exploit beings there is Ahankar in that, as we feel we have the right to, that we are superior.

Haumai is within every action, good or bad. You will Jap Naam and you will continue to have haumai, even in Karam Khand. This does not mean we should avoid doing good at all. According to this logic, we should not do any good. Only Naam completely removes Haumai, this is not an argument against Veganism because Veganism is within this world and while we live in this world we should try and do good.
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